My LS Conversion Dilemma:

[BANKO]

Hey Guys, I've been doing more research on how to add more HP to my car. An LS seems like a wise choice, pretty easy and cost effective to get +500hp on a wet sump application. Unfortunately in studying the impact of the conversion, it seems like I will need to touch almost every major subsystem of the car: fuel delivery, cooling, exhaust, clutch / bell housing / flywheel. I just finished a Viper T56 install on my SBC and most of the new parts will not be applicable in an LS swap.

I'm not sure it makes the most sense or "cents" :-) I'd like to get up to 500hp and think I can get pretty close in old school small block with hi flow heads, roller cam and a TB EFI. I'm considering putting a few power upgrades on the old SBC and plan a more extensive more upgrade +600HP dry sump LS conversion in the future. Is there anyway to do an LS conversion without replacing or upgrading all the subsystems mentioned above?

I'd love your thoughts. Thanks!

[WSSix]

What are you starting with? You may need to change out parts of those systems just to reach your goals with a traditional SBC too.

[JKnight]

I'm in a similar position as you are with the SBC/LS dilemma. If I add the TB EFI to my SBC, I think I'll splurge a bit on the fuel tank/pump/regulator/sender so that I would have the option of re-using it with an LS. The vaporworx/rick's combo is definitely a premium option, but it should work well with any EFI application, so why not go that route and give yourself flexibility down the road.

The majority of your exhaust could probably be re-used. You might just have to cut and re-do the first couple feet to get it to mate up with the LS collectors.

Cooling: You may be able to work it out such that you can use an LS-compatable radiator with your SBC. I'm not sure on this though...

[Che70velle]

I had to laugh at your " not making cents" comment. None of this stuff is financially a "good idea", but we don't do this because it is, we do this because, uh, well..hmmm....I guess we just can't help it. Does this make us junky's?

The sbc upgrade is going to cost you money. Heads, cam, intake, efi system, fuel system for the efi. It's gonna be expensive.

On the LS side of this deal, your gonna need headers, and most of the exhaust. If your gonna keep the LS efi, then you'll need a new complete fuel system, but that's a wash, if your gonna make your sbc efi. LS engines don't ask for much in the cooling department, so what you currently have should suffice. Your new tranny conversion won't work as it is. Is it fixable? Yes. My t56 came out of a camaro with a sbc. I converted it myself, for $600ish. It's really easy. You'll need a clutch and flywheel for sure, and the bell housings will interchange.

There's no arguing that the LS route will cost you more. I guess it all comes down to how much you want to spend. My LY6 makes 500 at the flywheel with a simple cam change, and headers.

Tell us more about what you currently have.

[BANKO]

Thanks guys, I have a plain jane 350 SBC (late model heads 1975 or newer heads / stamped rockers) that was in the car when I bought it. Alum radiator (small stock replacement), engine driven fan, Edelbrock 600 CFM electric choke carb and Edelbrock 120 GPH electric fuel pump, shorty headers to flowmaster 40 series.

I'm all up for spending money, I'm just not keen on wasting it. I just installed a Alum flywheel and RXT clutch with my Viper T56 install, not too excited in selling both for a loss when upgrading to an LS.

I didn't anticipate I would want to upgrade the motor so soon. However, after running 2 ACSC events, my lack of power is evident in all three challenges: large track, autocross, and the speed stop squared. I'm building the car to run in these events and know it is an iterative process. Trying to determine if spending a little now will hold me over for bit and enable me to have a more competitive car.

[WSSix]

How good of a driver are you? Lack of power can be a problem but if you're driving skills are on par with the guys you're loosing to, then more power is not your answer.

Here's a bell housing that will work for you. Maybe this will keep you from having to make any transmission changes beyond the flywheel and clutch. I don't know the Viper T56 though.

http://lakewoodindustries.com/drivetrain/bellhousings/ls1-to-dodge-viper.html

Honestly, it sounds to me like you need to just go ahead and make the change to LSx. You have a lot of changes you're going to need to make to get an SBC competitive power wise. Many of these same changes will be needed with the LSx swap as well. I think you'd be wasting money to build the SBC and then swap to an LSx. The other thing to realize is you're scratching the surface of the LSx at those power levels. With the SBC, you're starting to get into very expensive territory to make even more power. Long term investment points towards LSx in my opinion.

For what it's worth, I'm telling you this as someone who intends to build an LTx motor. Call me crazy for not following my own advice but I'm not racing anyone either. Make the swap or buy Beach Cruiser's 377 he has for sale.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

As much as I would love to see you with an LS swap and back in my shop for some work :hello: I would say hold off on the HP increase. Improve on your driving skills and zero in that suspension for more adjustability. Your car will tell you when you are ready for more HP and reliability. In other words, it may not be a neccesity at this time.

A far as the Viper T56, you can easily adapt it and use your clutch too.

Also what have you done as far as re gearing that diff?

[BANKO]

Hey guys, I appreciate your concern over my driving skills. I think I'm pretty good and my wife says I drive TOO fast, however I haven't won OUSCI or any ASCS event, so more seat-time can always be good thing :thumbsup:

I found this article (http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/completebuilds_testing/sucp_0906_chevy_chevelle_ls_engine_swap/) that Steve Rupp wrote in '09 and addressed my concerns about the flywheel and Quicktime Bellhousing, looks like I can re-use both.

Vince, you make goods points about suspension adjustability and re-gearing. Both are in the works. I couldn't put power to the ground with my 3.08, turbo 400 and skinny rear tires. The T56 is better, but I need more rear rubber and lower gears.

[Flash68]

Josh, what is that 350 making... maybe 350 hp tops? Yeah that ain't cuttin it any of these events short of a GoodGuys Peanut.

The road course requires decent power. The Speed Stop deal requires decent power. And from what I saw of the RTTC4 autoX course setup, that was a pretty straight layout with horsepower getting real advantage. So I certainly see your point.

You can get 500hp easily out of a 383 SBC and it will be not be some radical race motor. stroker rotating assemblies are dirt cheap, get some decent heads and top end and there ya go. 150+ more hp it appears.

Not saying an LS isn't cool, but everyone loves to recommend it so quickly.

And as far as the advice of buying that 377 (no offense to Beach Cruiser) from all the way across country (um, shipping costs?) but why on earth would that make any sense whatsoever? Did you see the parts list of that 377?

Josh, I saw your times... you seem to be doing very well with what you got. I'd want more power too. :thumbsup:

Question: what is your ultimate power goal? 1 year? 3 years? 5 years?

[GregWeld]

Vince, you make goods points about suspension adjustability and re-gearing. Both are in the works. I couldn't put power to the ground with my 3.08, turbo 400 and skinny rear tires. The T56 is better, but I need more rear rubber and lower gears.



I'm sorry but I had a good chuckle with this statement... Not laughing AT you at all so please don't take my comments as an insult.

You want more power -- but you can't put down the power you already have?

Like most of these discussions ---- it's never ONE item or ONE change that fixes a cars ills.... it's a PACKAGE DEAL... it's the COMBINATION -- and all those things working together and working well. What good is a big brake upgrade if you have skinny little street tires.... etc.

Look at your entire project and see if you can't tweak EVERYTHING just a bit to become more competitive??

[Todd in vancouver]

Hey I'm really kicking myself for spending so much on my SBC as what I really want now is an LS and I haven't even installed my SBC yet. If you want a nice strong SBC because you can easily have 500hp with a SBC, I will gladly sell you mine as I haven't yet purchased all the stuff I need yet so I'm happy to go LS at this point.

I'm sure there are plenty of good speed shops that can build a strong small block for you but to be honest I'm $10K into building the one I have.

:G-Dub:

[BANKO]

Dave, thanks for the encouragement. I think my power goals would be:

1yr: 500HP NA
3yrs: 650HP NA
5yrs: 800HP Dry Sump & FI


GW, thanks for chiming in, I'm glad I gave you a chuckle! My statement was an over-generalization, but the reality is that with my engine / trans / rearend combo, I can easily spin the tires. While this was cool in High School, it doesn't make you faster. I agree it is a complex system with all things working together to make a fast car. What I have discovered in the ASCS events is power to weight ratio makes a big difference on the big track & speed stop. <300hp is hard to compete with ~600HP. Who doesn't want :morepower !?!

My goal with the car is drive it and have fun (which I am doing), I tend to favor Pro-Touring over Pro-Jackstand. Here is a shot of the wider rubber (https://www.dropbox.com/s/04sf5fcenicdi3h/rear-tire-test.jpg) I am working to fit.

Todd, sorry to hear about your experience. I don't want to be in the same place in 6 months.

[JKnight]

Hey I'm really kicking myself for spending so much on my SBC as what I really want now is an LS and I haven't even installed my SBC yet.

Herein lies the problem though. We, as a group, tend to turn our attention the next greatest thing before we've even given our current setup a try. I have a feeling you (not you specifically Todd, but anyone in your position, including myself) might be thinking less about an LS if you were currently burning fuel and rubber with your SBC.

[Todd in vancouver]

Herein lies the problem though. We, as a group, tend to turn our attention the next greatest thing before we've even given our current setup a try. I have a feeling you (not you specifically Todd, but anyone in your position, including myself) might be thinking less about an LS if you were currently burning fuel and rubber with your SBC.

You are so right and I think it's the evolution of where we are going and what our expectations are for these/our cars. I've had more powerful cars in the past and this project started out with a different goal. I think you are on the mark with building a car that will meet your needs not just for now but keeping in mind where you may end up.

The 350 I have is built for Nitros and quite frankly I have a lot of learning to do before I can out drive my present set-up. Scope creep is a real bugger and we all need to just appreciate what we have. Having said that I would really like to have 1000hp and I'm not apologizing for my childish side because it keeps me young and always striving for more.:D

[Roberts68]

I have been watching this discussion and wasn't going to jump in and talk about my situation for fear of hijacking the original thread... Well, either my manners subsided or the discussion has made some points I can't resist commenting on... time will tell which.:computer:

Anyway, as far as the cost of a stout SBC that was probably built as frugally as possible I wanted to share some text comments from a discussion I was just having with one of my friends whose built quite a few serious SBC's when I was asking him about possibilities for my engine.

I have 8k to 9k in my 406. 526hp/530tq. All good parts. Could be done cheaper if a guy wants to gamble on lesser parts

My #1 for heads is AFR. I run 210 eliminators. Also need full roller valve train for that hp. Comp cams
Price out a Dart SHP Short block. All good stuff there. No having to search and buy a stock 400 block, then add 1k at machine shop

:rules: Now the tentative part where I weigh in on my situation trying not to threadjack:rolleyes:
I have an early 90's .030 cast rebuild on my numbers matching 327, with non original 241 camelbacks lightly worked over.
I am questioning whether I should throw any money at this thing to make it more respectable versus going another route, whether a bigger displacement sbc or LS.
Parts on hand were sourced with an open minded future, PRC dual pass LS radiator, Ricks tank currently with a low pressure pump, and my t56mag can be adapted to an LS easily.

What to do? What to do?

Right now I do not see myself needing crazy power, if I had 500hp I would feel like king $hit on turd island... I'm just sayin'.

No matter what path I take I am looking at heads, rotating assembly, new headers are on my list regardless... The light at the end of the tunnel resembles an LS... but I dunno if I like bandwagons all that much and appearance wise they don't hold a candle in my opinion.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Its funny how much easier (as it seems) to make power out of an LS. Its just a difference in efficiency.

I have close to 12K in a 394 stroker that I build for my Camaro several years ago. Includes labor. It puts out just about 550 and it was a bunch to get there. 12K in an LS would make much more power....not leak from the rear main and get twice the gas milage. That is huge when you are driving back and forth to events.

Josh, put your money in suspension and brakes to start. Power will get there. I may have a few engines for you when that time comes.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Hey guys, I appreciate your concern over my driving skills. I think I'm pretty good and my wife says I drive TOO fast, however I haven't won OUSCI or any ASCS event, so more seat-time can always be good thing :thumbsup:

I found this article (http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/completebuilds_testing/sucp_0906_chevy_chevelle_ls_engine_swap/) that Steve Rupp wrote in '09 and addressed my concerns about the flywheel and Quicktime Bellhousing, looks like I can re-use both.

Vince, you make goods points about suspension adjustability and re-gearing. Both are in the works. I couldn't put power to the ground with my 3.08, turbo 400 and skinny rear tires. The T56 is better, but I need more rear rubber and lower gears.

Are you still running 3:08's? That must be a ton on fun in (.50) 6th gear.

[Che70velle]

Here's something else to consider...the LS engine has been out now for over 16 years. Yeah, 16 years. Shoot, it's already been replaced by the upcoming LT series engines. The LS engines will be oldschool stuff very soon.
I love and appreciate the SBC as much as anybody. I've spent stupid money on dry sump SBC engines for my late models, and there are a gazillion parts out there still today, but when it comes to making easy power, with a very efficient, and strong engine, the LS is a really simple choice. I really don't see it as a "bandwagon" thing. It's just so easy to make great power, and achieve actual great fuel mileage figures with the LS engine. They are readily available, have a lot of aftermarket support, and are affordable. What's not to like?

[BANKO]

Vince, what kind of engine are you hiding in your shop for me? I hope it has more than 500 horses.... :dance:

My brakes are in the process of being updated: Wilwood W6A in the front and I'll move my Z06 6 pistons to the rear. Need to do some fab work to get RideTech Triples w/ double shear mounts to work in the front.

My T56 w/ 3.08's purrs like a kitten at 500rpm in 6th on the highway! I can't do a standing mile yet until I resolve the ground clearance issues with my quicktime bellhousing. Cars following me get scared by the sparks my car produces on the highway....

Back to the LS discussion, I found this article (http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/engines_drivetrain/cams_heads_valvetrain/1112chp_ls3_cylinder_head_cam_intake_swap/) documenting the Mast cam and head swap. My gosh, 507ft-lb of torque with a cam and head swap on a stock 376ci motor is pretty amazing! Makes the case for finding a cheap LS3 pull-out all the more convincing.

[71RS/SS396]

The biggest plus about LS to me is the fact you can build a 600+ hp engine that has excellent street manners.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Vince, what kind of engine are you hiding in your shop for me? I hope it has more than 500 horses.... :dance:

My brakes are in the process of being updated: Wilwood W6A in the front and I'll move my Z06 6 pistons to the rear. Need to do some fab work to get RideTech Triples w/ double shear mounts to work in the front.

My T56 w/ 3.08's purrs like a kitten at 500rpm in 6th on the highway! I can't do a standing mile yet until I resolve the ground clearance issues with my quicktime bellhousing. Cars following me get scared by the sparks my car produces on the highway....

Back to the LS discussion, I found this article (http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/engines_drivetrain/cams_heads_valvetrain/1112chp_ls3_cylinder_head_cam_intake_swap/) documenting the Mast cam and head swap. My gosh, 507ft-lb of torque with a cam and head swap on a stock 376ci motor is pretty amazing! Makes the case for finding a cheap LS3 pull-out all the more convincing.

When you get a chance give me a call or stop by. We can sit and talk about Wegner building you a long bock with a short block that you will not have to upgrade later as you start adding power free-ers and adders.ie: Same short block but you just swap heads, cam, oiling etc.

You could swap to a carbed LS for now, that way you can leave your fuel system as it sits now then upgrade later.

A lot of options for you.

Damn, I suprised your engine doesn't lug itself to death. Love to see what you can get for a top speed. 3000 rpm @ 137 mph?

[GregWeld]

That's the best advice I've heard so far right there.... a simple carbed LS... keeps the cost contained and you can add as you go. Too sensible!

[EBMC]

That's the best advice I've heard so far right there.... a simple carbed LS... keeps the cost contained and you can add as you go. Too sensible!

Agreed, we did a carbed LS2 a few years ago and it ran great and he's been putting a ton of miles on it. He recently brought it back in to upgrade to fuel injection and it's a perfect example of building in "stages".

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Vince, what kind of engine are you hiding in your shop for me? I hope it has more than 500 horses.... :dance:

My brakes are in the process of being updated: Wilwood W6A in the front and I'll move my Z06 6 pistons to the rear. .

I have some prices, be sure to check them before you drop a dime on a pull out.

You might want to re think using your fronts on the rear. The piston volume is way out of the range that the normal rear caliper is. Better off selling what you have and buying the correct matching caliper.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

sorry, you may want to throw that up in the brakes section. See what Tobin may recommend.