Garage Furnace Advice

[wiedemab]

As some of you may know from my earlier post about my concrete floor. I am having a garage/shop built. It is 30X44' w/ 12 foot ceiling and "bonus room" trusses for an upstairs, mainly to just store parts etc.. It is 2X6 framed and will be well insulated. I've ran a gas line out (underground) from my house and plan to put a gas furnace in it to heat it.

My thought has been to put a house style high efficiency furnace and duct work in it and locate the furnace in the upstairs and pipe ducts down the back wall of the building. I may block them out to the interior of the wall so as to not take away from my insulation inside that wall.

I'm looking for advice....... Is my plan a good idea or would you recommend another option for the furnace and/or location of furnace etc..

Thanks in advance for your thoughts - as always they are appreciated.

[DBasher]

I have a friend that has the same size shop with a bathroom and small open office area. For years he had his furnace in the corner sitting on a return plenum and just a 5' stick of 12" with a 90 pointing out towards the other corner.

The more time I spent in the shop the more it bugged me. I ended up running across the back wall reducing from 12" down to 8", each of the 3 bays have a stub about 3' out with a grill on the end. I put balance dampers in each run and a drop for the bathroom. All exposed round pipe, looks good.

His place is set at 60 when he's around, down to 50 when he heads outta town. About the only difference he's mentioned is it looks better and warms up quicker.

:cheers:
Dan

[snappytravis]

I have a 30x40 2x6 10ft walls. I heat it with a hotdawg heater I believe I ordered it from air and water out of nebraska. The walls have 2 inches of spray foam and 4 inch batting over that. My only though with the house style heater would be trying to have it upstairs in a central location so your ductwork would go out 20 feet in each direction. It would be interesting to know how much it will take to heat the upstairs part of the garage, might not take much at all. How much will you be in that area? One nice thing is you could hook up central air to the house unit that would be nice. It will be -10 at least tomorrow morning and probably about 35 in the garage with no heat on.

[Beegs]

I have a 30x40 2x6 10ft walls. I heat it with a hotdawg heater I believe I ordered it from air and water out of nebraska. The walls have 2 inches of spray foam and 4 inch batting over that.

Are you happy with it?

[itsals1]

Brandon
I think using a standard gas furnace,upstairs is a great idea. Why not run duct work in between the floor joists and have the vents come out the ceiling on each side of the building. This way you only have floor vent style covers on the finished ceiling, and are able to have heat above your garage doors(your biggest heat loss) and also not affect any lights,ceiling fans,or other things you would mount on the ceiling. Just a thought?
Travis

[dontlifttoshift]

I have a HotDawg in my 26x40. 2x4 walls and 14" of insulation in the ceiling. It's plenty warm in there. The thermostat stays on 60 all the time.

If I were building, I would go the house furnace/duct work route and have Air Conditioning installed as well.

[T_Raven]

I've been thinking about this too. My shop is 27x44 inside with 13' ceilings. My dad is in the propane business so I'm hoping he can score me a used furnace cheap. I like the idea of having the ability to add ac to it if I wanted to.

[Sparks67]

My friends that have a traditional furnace, are always complaining about the costs to heat. So, a friend has a infrared radiant tube style heater. His fuel costs are about 50% less than my friends. There is different configurations, so it is not a straight tube. You can do U-Tube as well. Just need to plumb the gas tubing on one end and have the vent on the other end. You save about 50% in fuel costs per year to heat. Here is a thread on where, I posted the other options.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=39699

Do you plan to paint in the garage? If you do then you need an exhaust vent. As far as A/C units, there is a few options. Well, a friend has 40 x 28. He just has the window a/c style, but another option is the Split System.
http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/ductfree/highwall/index.shtml

Have you planned your lighting? I use T5-HO, but they work great. Each bulb lasts about 10,000 hours and use less electricity than T-8. You need to plan out your lighting, if you want to do infrared radiant heat. When I bought my T-5 HO in 2009, they weren't available but here is where I bought mine.

Jeff
http://www.vaultgarage.com/garage-lighting/

[GregWeld]

My 30 X 48 shop has 21' to the peak - 14' sidewalls... I live in "Seattle" so it's a moderate climate.

6" walls and joists -- with 6" bat insulation.

I heat the entire space using only the T12 HO fluorescent lighting... but it's ON 24/7 in the winter. The upstairs area is TOO WARM... it's 70* on the lower floor. My electric bill is less than $300 a month.

[wiedemab]

Thanks for the info. I hadn't even thought about the natural gas radiant heaters. I will definitely look into them. I won't be doing any significant paint work in this shop - -maybe just a little primer. I will take things to a paint booth to spray.

I will likely just put a window AC unit and run it when it gets really muggy just cut down on the humidity. The garage will be very shaded by some large surrounding trees so hopefully it won't get super hot!

As far as lighting goes, I've been planning to run T8's all along - and plenty of them. Are the T5's that much better (worth the money?).

Thanks again.

I should have just started a general Advice thread for this project......... I can see this one turning into that!

Thanks again everyone.

[Sparks67]

Thanks for the info.
I will likely just put a window AC unit and run it when it gets really muggy just cut down on the humidity. The garage will be very shaded by some large surrounding trees so hopefully it won't get super hot!

I just use a window air conditioner in my garage, it works fine. I am in the same climate as you, so the temperature in the garage should be similar.


As far as lighting goes, I've been planning to run T8's all along - and plenty of them. Are the T5's that much better (worth the money?).

Yes, I think it is much cheaper for the T5-HO's, but I only have 2 fixtures for my 20 x 28 garage. The bulbs can be bought at your local electric supply. I need another fixture for the back, but the electricity cost is rather low. My friends that have T8 and T12, and they are always replacing them. The one with T12 has light strips all over his garage, but my garage is much brighter. Mine reminds me of working in Tool & Die inspection room in the past, it is rather well lit. I like it!


Jeff

Heating system will vary with your climate and which state you are in.

[GregWeld]

A 28W T5 produces about the same light output as a 32W T8 and a 54W T5HO produces close to twice the light output of T8 and T12 lamps when these lamps are operated as part of a ballasted lighting system. The nominal light output of a four-foot 54W T5HO lamp is 5,000 lumens, compared to 2,900 lumens for a 28W T5 lamp and 2,850 lumens for a 32W T8.

As a result of the same or greater light being produced from a smaller area, T5 lamps appear brighter and of course so do T5HO lamps. T5HO lamps are not recommended for fixtures where the light source is directly visible. They are too bright. However, this characteristic makes them ideal for compact indirect fixtures.

[wiedemab]

A 28W T5 produces about the same light output as a 32W T8 and a 54W T5HO produces close to twice the light output of T8 and T12 lamps when these lamps are operated as part of a ballasted lighting system. The nominal light output of a four-foot 54W T5HO lamp is 5,000 lumens, compared to 2,900 lumens for a 28W T5 lamp and 2,850 lumens for a 32W T8.

As a result of the same or greater light being produced from a smaller area, T5 lamps appear brighter and of course so do T5HO lamps. T5HO lamps are not recommended for fixtures where the light source is directly visible. They are too bright. However, this characteristic makes them ideal for compact indirect fixtures.

Thanks. I'm going to put a spreadsheet together to compare fixture cost, bulb cost, power consumption - all considering the light output required for the shop. Obviously if the T5's put out more light I can most likely get away with fewer fixtures.

I had been leaning toward some cheap 8ft long (using 4X4ft T8 bulbs) fixtures - probably 12-16 of them. I need to make sure they have the electronic ballasts, but I think they do.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_163723-337-8TSNF-232-UNV-EB81-U_0__?productId=3181905&Ntt=fluorescent+lighting&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dfluorescent%2Blighting&facetInfo=

They are pretty cheap to purchase, but I will do the analysis to see is best.

[GregWeld]

Well --- I'd have to recommend AGAINST fixtures from Home Depot or Lowes....


I started out with them and then when I was still wiring my dump up I picked up a couple from my commercial wiring shop and OMG what a difference!! The gauge of metal was far superior - the weight - the connector ends that grab the bulbs... the SIZE of the ballast was double!

From then on I switched to this superior brand. Guess which fixtures where the first to have bad ballasts.... Yep - the el cheapos!

But I also understand people are on budgets - and the good fixtures were way more expensive than the cheapo versions. It was just one of those things that I figured -- over the long run -- I only want to put them up and wiring them ONCE....

[wiedemab]

Well --- I'd have to recommend AGAINST fixtures from Home Depot or Lowes....


I started out with them and then when I was still wiring my dump up I picked up a couple from my commercial wiring shop and OMG what a difference!! The gauge of metal was far superior - the weight - the connector ends that grab the bulbs... the SIZE of the ballast was double!

From then on I switched to this superior brand. Guess which fixtures where the first to have bad ballasts.... Yep - the el cheapos!

But I also understand people are on budgets - and the good fixtures were way more expensive than the cheapo versions. It was just one of those things that I figured -- over the long run -- I only want to put them up and wiring them ONCE....

Yeah, i wondered about that. I even thought about trying to pick up some better made older fixtures on auction or sale and then retrofitting the ballasts to the newer electronic ones. I know a few commercial electricians. Maybe I can talk to them to see what they can come up with for me........ Never hurts to ask!

[GregWeld]

Yeah, i wondered about that. I even thought about trying to pick up some better made older fixtures on auction or sale and then retrofitting the ballasts to the newer electronic ones. I know a few commercial electricians. Maybe I can talk to them to see what they can come up with for me........ Never hurts to ask!

My regular electrician allowed me to buy at his supplier and get his discount... which really helped. He just didn't have time to wire my place at the time and told me to do it myself with his guidance... so that's what I did. It's easy if you have half a brain. Most of us do! Or we wouldn't be putting up a shop in the first place, Right?

I was just appalled at the difference in quality -- thus my post. :cheers:

[wiedemab]

Dad and I wired his shop and his house when we remodeled it - both with guidance though! I bought a book based on the NEC 2011 (Indiana is still on 2008), but I will use it as a guide as well.

That is certainly good feedback on the light fixtures. I'd rather spend a little extra upfront if I can afford to to get a better quality light.

[71RS/SS396]

I'll second the tube radiants for a shop.

[wiedemab]

I'll second the tube radiants for a shop.

Well - - if you endorse them, they must be some good stuff!! ;)

I think I'm leaning that direction after doing a little research. I'll just have to figure out the placement prior to laying out my light fixtures etc..

[Sparks67]

A 28W T5 produces about the same light output as a 32W T8 and a 54W T5HO produces close to twice the light output of T8 and T12 lamps when these lamps are operated as part of a ballasted lighting system. The nominal light output of a four-foot 54W T5HO lamp is 5,000 lumens, compared to 2,900 lumens for a 28W T5 lamp and 2,850 lumens for a 32W T8.

As a result of the same or greater light being produced from a smaller area, T5 lamps appear brighter and of course so do T5HO lamps. T5HO lamps are not recommended for fixtures where the light source is directly visible. They are too bright. However, this characteristic makes them ideal for compact indirect fixtures.

Greg must have big supply of T12 lighting, because it is being phased out.

My T5HO lamps produce 54W, the recommended fixture is Zumtobel is made in Austria. Total Lamp Lumens is 8800. This fixture has a diffuser, so it is not direct lighting. Hard to find this fixture in the USA, but Vault sells them. I love mine. Cost a bit more, but it was worth it. I had these installed in 2009.

If you go infrared radiant tube heater, then this type fixture will be more flexible in the design.

You can read their light study in their brochure.
http://www.vaultgarage.com/_pdf/Vault-Lighting-2010.pdf

http://www.zumtobel.us/PDB/teaser/EN/ZSLI_FZ%20800%20Brochure.pdf

T8 phase out is more confusing....Depends on the series, but I go T5-HO.

http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/Prod%20%20Leg%20%20-%20DOE%20rulemaking%204-14-11.c0d4e84f-f7ac-493b-bdb7-a04bce0bcbeb.pdf

[wiedemab]

Thanks Sparks67 --- I'll have to do some reading. I will probably struggle to fit $250 fixtures into my budget, depending on how many I would need. If I could get by with about 4 fixtures maybe, but I doubt that is feasible. I will have to research it.

[Sparks67]

Thanks Sparks67 --- I'll have to do some reading. I will probably struggle to fit $250 fixtures into my budget, depending on how many I would need. If I could get by with about 4 fixtures maybe, but I doubt that is feasible. I will have to research it.

Call Vault, and they will tell you on how many you need. You might just need 4, but I told them the size of garage. They said 2 to 3. I went with 2, and later I add another one. If you need more, just add it in later. You might be able to find that fixture now in the USA, but I couldn't find it in 2009.

[DBasher]

Wiedemab, dang right it doesn't hurt to ask!

The're are times that my electrician friends can't give away the lights they pull out. I've got 6) 2'x2' box lights, 4 U shaped bulbs a piece that came out of a high school. Free and 1000% better than what I had, literally night and day.

Something else to think about is the work benches. My lighting is real clean and bright but I would create shadows when at the work benches or sheet metal equipment. Not having a high ceiling is part of the issue I think. I've got 3 separate lights that hang close to the wall to get rid of the "shadows".

Sounds fun putting together a new work space, I'm due in the next year or so.:thumbsup:

:cheers:
Dan

[GregWeld]

What I like about the 8' T12 HO bulbs is the 110 watts.... Watts = heat...

I've got 16 double lamp fixtures --- so that's 32 bulbs cranking out 110 watts each... Which is 3500 watts on 24/7. With the 6" of high density bat for insulation -- and the 5/8" plywood interior walls... I've got more heat than I can use!


:D

[Lenie]

Sounds like a heated discussion:lol: Man, I need to build me a nice shop, good luck w/the build.

[Sparks67]

What I like about the 8' T12 HO bulbs is the 110 watts.... Watts = heat...

I've got 16 double lamp fixtures --- so that's 32 bulbs cranking out 110 watts each... Which is 3500 watts on 24/7. With the 6" of high density bat for insulation -- and the 5/8" plywood interior walls... I've got more heat than I can use!


:D

Might work in Bellevue, Washington, when the lowest temperature only reaches 40 degrees. Not in Indiana! His outside temperature is same as mine.

Oh Yeah! T12HO's are on Department of Energy list to eliminate too, because they use to much energy.

"Effective July 14, 2012 fluorescent lighting must meet 2009 Department Of Energy regulations and minimum initial lumens per watt (LPW) requirements, or can no longer be manufactured. All medium bi-pin 4ft. T12 lamps are eliminated. Standard SP lamps at 2800 lumens don’t meet standards and will no longer be manufactured. Most standard 8’T12 and 8’T12 HO lamps are eliminated except the 60W, 800 series. All T12 2ft. U-bend lamps are eliminated. T8 U-bend standard SP lamps are eliminated. 2012 Phase out of 100 watt incandescent light bulbs 2013 Phase out of 75 watt incandescent light bulbs 2014 Phase out of 40 and 60 watt incandescent light bulbs"

Expect more changes in lighting technology. There is more changes coming for 2014, so expect it change in another few years. I see on the DOE website that their ultimate goal is to move to Solid State Lighting by 2030. SSL lighting is to expensive now.

[Sparks67]

Something else to think about is the work benches. My lighting is real clean and bright but I would create shadows when at the work benches or sheet metal equipment. Not having a high ceiling is part of the issue I think. I've got 3 separate lights that hang close to the wall to get rid of the "shadows".


I have 10 foot ceilings, and I say that the T5-HO are about 10 to 12 feet from the work bench. I don't need any extra lighting for the work bench. I don"t get any shadows, but it might be your color temperature of the fluorescent light. I use 5000K (Full spectrum), but most people don't like that temperature. I used to work in quality control & Tool & Die back in the 1980's, and it was at 5000K. More light is nice, if it is required.


Jeff

[DBasher]

I'm kinda built like a sasquatch, been known to block more than just light.:D

Hey Greg, with the high ceiling in your shed how much of a drop do you have on the lights?


:cheers:
Dan

[GregWeld]

I'm kinda built like a sasquatch, been known to block more than just light.:D

Hey Greg, with the high ceiling in your shed how much of a drop do you have on the lights?


:cheers:
Dan



Right around 13' off the floor. I have one door that's 12' and I needed to clear that. Then there are 4 (dbls) over the work area that are at 8' ish....



The lowest lights are in the floor joists -- and I used some corrugated steel as "reflectors" ---- which I thought was very clever of me. :D



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_1295.jpg



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_1296.jpg



There is NO lighting above this area.... and it's still more than bright enough...



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_1304.jpg




In this picture --- only half the shop lights are on -- the far bay is off. Each "bay" has 6 (2 rows of 3) double light 8' fixtures.



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_2252.jpg

[HAULNSS]

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/IMG_2252.jpg

"Asshole's Garage" :rofl:


Nice shop Greg. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

"Asshole's Garage" :rofl:


Nice shop Greg. :thumbsup:



Hey! Let's just keep this about heat and lights! No point in calling people names! And my mother in law says it's a SHED not a shop.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[T_Raven]

I was talking to my dad about heating my shop. He was saying, as has been said here already, that the infrared tubes are the best. But they aren't cheap. He said the panel type, infrared, radiant heaters would be the next best choice. Like this one Summit Carries

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrh-mh40ng

He has a smaller one in his garage, but I've never really used it, because he has a shop out back I did everything in in high school. He said a 100,000 btu should heat my shop, or a couple smaller ones.

[Sparks67]

I was talking to my dad about heating my shop. He was saying, as has been said here already, that the infrared tubes are the best. But they aren't cheap. He said the panel type, infrared, radiant heaters would be the next best choice. Like this one Summit Carries

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrh-mh40ng

He has a smaller one in his garage, but I've never really used it, because he has a shop out back I did everything in in high school. He said a 100,000 btu should heat my shop, or a couple smaller ones.


No, you don't want the panel type heater. The problem is that it is not vented. You do any work underneath the car, then you almost pass out. I owned one, and hated it.

If you short on cash, then you might look into a Dayton Electric heater. Grainger sells them. A friend of mine bought one, and it heats his 36 x 36 garage. Cost was only $300.

[snappytravis]

Hey! Let's just keep this about heat and lights! No point in calling people names! And my mother in law says it's a SHED not a shop.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ya nice shop, Looks like there is a lot of stuff stashed in there,, stuff, and stuff, and more stuff

[T_Raven]

No, you don't want the panel type heater. The problem is that it is not vented. You do any work underneath the car, then you almost pass out. I owned one, and hated it.

If you short on cash, then you might look into a Dayton Electric heater. Grainger sells them. A friend of mine bought one, and it heats his 36 x 36 garage. Cost was only $300.

I come from propane, we don't use electric heat lol. My dad's been in the propane biz for nearly 30yrs. We have talked about radiant heaters before not being vented when we were talking about heating my house. He has a furnace that does most of the heating but also has a wall mounted radiant heater to help heat the basement when they need it. He told me they are the most efficient but that's because they aren't vented and you are suppose to crack a window when using one but that's not factored into the efficiency and obviously lowers it.

I found a 100,000 btu natty gas ceramic radiant heater on cl for $75 so I'll give it a shot and see how I like it. If I hate it I'll be looking for a tube type. Maybe my over head doors leak enough air that they might provide enough ventilation that I don't pass out lol

[Firebirdsteve]

I have an Infrared Tube Heater in my 850 sq ft garage. The garage is fully insulated and will get Africa hot in minutes. No dust flying around, just nice warm radiant heat! LOVE IT!!!

http://www.schwankusa.com/tube-heaters/intro/

[wiedemab]

I have an Infrared Tube Heater in my 850 sq ft garage. The garage is fully insulated and will get Africa hot in minutes. No dust flying around, just nice warm radiant heat! LOVE IT!!!

http://www.schwankusa.com/tube-heaters/intro/

Thank - -I think I'm going to try to go that route.

What size did you get for your shop?

[Firebirdsteve]

I have the 20' and it's 100btu I believe.

[Sparks67]

I come from propane, we don't use electric heat lol. My dad's been in the propane biz for nearly 30yrs. We have talked about radiant heaters before not being vented when we were talking about heating my house. He has a furnace that does most of the heating but also has a wall mounted radiant heater to help heat the basement when they need it. He told me they are the most efficient but that's because they aren't vented and you are suppose to crack a window when using one but that's not factored into the efficiency and obviously lowers it.

I found a 100,000 btu natty gas ceramic radiant heater on cl for $75 so I'll give it a shot and see how I like it. If I hate it I'll be looking for a tube type. Maybe my over head doors leak enough air that they might provide enough ventilation that I don't pass out lol

I was in my friend's garage the other night, and it is about 36' x 36" with 12 foot ceilings. This little Dayton heater was heating the whole shop. Temperature was around 25F that night, but I was impressed at the Dayton. I am not sure on the model, but it was similar to this one.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Electric-Utility-Heater-3UG73?gclid=CI-GueOukbUCFYpFMgodc2gAfw&cm_mmc=PPC:GooglePLA-_-HVAC%20and%20Refrigeration-_-Heating%20Equipment-_-3UG73&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=3UG73&ef_id=UQm@VAAASJmgrjsr:20130131004404:s

The best overall heat is the radiant tube infrared heater. You can weld, paint, etc...with the vented type.

I had the unvented radiant heater and thought my 50 year old garage doors would leak enough... No, you have to open them about 4". The reason that you got in for $75 is no one wants them at all. I gave mine away.

Jeff