Radiant heat garage floor - retrofit??

[RussMurco]

Ok, after spending much of the holidays in the garage, with single-digit temps outside, it's just a little too cold for my taste out there! My garage is 5 years old, 35x40, completely finished and fully insulated with gas heat yet the floor and my tools remain cold even when the air temp is at 70 for days.
Is it possible to add another layer to the floor with built-in radiant heating, or will I have to pull-up the entire concrete floor and re-pour??

[Sparks67]

Ok, after spending much of the holidays in the garage, with single-digit temps outside, it's just a little too cold for my taste out there! My garage is 5 years old, 35x40, completely finished and fully insulated with gas heat yet the floor and my tools remain cold even when the air temp is at 70 for days.
Is it possible to add another layer to the floor with built-in radiant heating, or will I have to pull-up the entire concrete floor and re-pour??

You can do it. I recently asked a major plumbing company about it. The company said that they could pour over my 50 year old concrete floor, but the cost would be rather expensive. If you want a better option, then do a radiant tube style heater. These units have to be vented outside, but you can do welding and painting. Typically, they are used in body shops. I am in Ohio, but typically the temperature drops to single digits. I have laid on the floor, but I use a furniture pad. The floor is not as warm as my parents radiant floors in their home, but it is rather nice. The size garage that has the radiant tube heater is 40 x 28. Ceiling height is only 8 feet.

http://www.modinehvac.com/v2portal/page/portal/hvac/hvacCommercialDefault/hvac_com/commercial_hvac/level_3_content2_019.htm

Jeff

Infrared radiant tube heater can be done with or without insulation. Radiant heat heats the objects in the room, while traditional heaters heat the air.

[Sieg]

Get one or two of these http://www.walmart.com/ip/Cadet-RCP502S-The-Hot-One-5000-Watt-240V-Portable-Garage-and-Shop-Heater/22089649?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=22089649&sourceid=1500000000000003260430 and some extra insulation. :thumbsup:

I have one in my 3-car garage and it will get too hot. It's 30* now and the garage is at 68*.

[bret]

Back when I was working in a totally unheated garage and had no money, but a lot of time...I made my own version of "radiant floor heat".

[1] large piece of cardboard [like a refrigerator box]
[1] electric blanket from Wal Mart
[1] additional large piece of cardboard

I slid this under my car [a blown injected Fairmont at the time] to lay one as I worked on suspension, brake lines, exhaust, etc. I would slide it over to the workbench if I needed it there. It was cheap, easy to move, very effective and disposable if you ruined it somehow.

Now every building I own is radiant floor heated. It is truly the only way to go.

[califconstruct]

an Option: You could always lay some Granite tiles in there.. maybe a checkerboard pattern.. Galaxy Black, with White. lay down some Nu-heat.. electric underfloor matting, as used in restrooms and such.. only heat the areas you want heated.

I have tiled garage floors with granite and its not too cost involved if your a DIY.
You just need to know how to lay down the electric matting, and scuff prep the floor for it to stick.

beats tearing out your concrete. :unibrow:

overlays would not be thick enough for the heating.

there's also the snap in style plastic floors.. not sure what R value you get from them.

good luck.

[Sieg]

Back when I was working in a totally unheated garage and had no money, but a lot of time...I made my own version of "radiant floor heat".

[1] large piece of cardboard [like a refrigerator box]
[1] electric blanket from Wal Mart
[1] additional large piece of cardboard

I slid this under my car [a blown injected Fairmont at the time] to lay one as I worked on suspension, brake lines, exhaust, etc. I would slide it over to the workbench if I needed it there. It was cheap, easy to move, very effective and disposable if you ruined it somehow.

Now every building I own is radiant floor heated. It is truly the only way to go.
That's creativity right there! :thumbsup:

Once you work on good radiant heat slabs you're spoiled for life. :yes:

[bret]

One additional logistical problem with "adding" floor heat over an existing slab...unless the slab is specially insulated in preparation for floor heat, the frozen ground will suck the heat out from under the concrete as fast as you can put it in.

[GregWeld]

They do make - I have them in my kitchen and bathroom - electric floor heaters that you can put UNDER tiles...

Mine have thermostats just like a furnace. They DO NOT heat quickly - this is a very slow heat and not to be used like an off and on switch. We turn them on for the "winter months" and then turn them off.

I think that would be an expensive solution for a "shop".

My solution would be to heat the shop 24/7 so that everything gets up to temp and then will hold the heat --- rather than going out there - cranking the gas on - and expecting all that cold steel to suddenly get comfortable.

[Stuart Adams]

an Option: You could always lay some Granite tiles in there.. maybe a checkerboard pattern.. Galaxy Black, with White. lay down some Nu-heat.. electric underfloor matting, as used in restrooms and such.. only heat the areas you want heated.

I have tiled garage floors with granite and its not too cost involved if your a DIY.
You just need to know how to lay down the electric matting, and scuff prep the floor for it to stick.

beats tearing out your concrete. :unibrow:

overlays would not be thick enough for the heating.

there's also the snap in style plastic floors.. not sure what R value you get from them.

good luck.


Great floor.

You could also move to AZ.

[Sparks67]

They do make - I have them in my kitchen and bathroom - electric floor heaters that you can put UNDER tiles...

Mine have thermostats just like a furnace. They DO NOT heat quickly - this is a very slow heat and not to be used like an off and on switch. We turn them on for the "winter months" and then turn them off.

I think that would be an expensive solution for a "shop".

Yup! Especially since the OP is in Minnesota. :lol: A friend of mine is from Minnesota, he walks outside without coats at 20F. Ohio, is relative warm to up there. Anyway, The Radiant Tube heater is the best option, it has thermostat. The tube heater can be designed by one tube, U-tube. We work in the garage at temperature of around 55 to 60. Jack can heat it up to paint to 80F, and it is like the sun. Traditional gas furnaces sort of suffocate you, because it is heating the volume in the room. The garage floor is relative warm, and the cost is low.

My parents home that was built in 1962 has radiant heating in the floor. Not all the floor is actually warm, and it takes hours to heat up the system. It is gas fired boiler, but you still need electricity for the pilot light.

If I was building a garage, and could afford radiant heat in the floors, then I would have it installed.
A retrofit system can be costly to install. You can contact your local plumbing/heating contractor and they can give you estimate. I recently looked at both options, but I will do radiant tube heat in the ceiling.

Jeff

[RussMurco]

Back when I was working in a totally unheated garage and had no money, but a lot of time...I made my own version of "radiant floor heat".

[1] large piece of cardboard [like a refrigerator box]
[1] electric blanket from Wal Mart
[1] additional large piece of cardboard

I slid this under my car [a blown injected Fairmont at the time] to lay one as I worked on suspension, brake lines, exhaust, etc. I would slide it over to the workbench if I needed it there. It was cheap, easy to move, very effective and disposable if you ruined it somehow.

Now every building I own is radiant floor heated. It is truly the only way to go.

Ya know, I laughed when I first read this but heck, makes sense in a pinch!

[RussMurco]

One additional logistical problem with "adding" floor heat over an existing slab...unless the slab is specially insulated in preparation for floor heat, the frozen ground will suck the heat out from under the concrete as fast as you can put it in.
That was something I was concerned with and it makes sense as I can leave the heat on 75 for a week and the floor is still 40 degrees!

[glassman]

Talk to a good tile contractor, they can put the "thinset" in the mat and tile over it. My problem with the granite or any other natural stone is the tendency to crack. Plus when using a "checkerboard" pattern, while it looks great, it's a bitc# when you drop something, can't find.

Porcelain tile over a heat mat, some boring earth tone,most functional. IMO

Mike

[Revved]

Radiant flooring is one thing that crossed my mind when building my shop but I didn't follow up on it. Fortunately I'm in North TX and its only cold a few months out of the year that I would use it. I've got full HVAC in the shop and even though I can keep the shop nice and toasty it still gets COLD laying on the concrete crawling under cars. I feel for you guys up north...I just couldn't do it! Thing to consider with radiant flooring is that heat rises so an efficient radiant flooring system will help heat your shop as well.

I can't see a cheap way to do it that would be worth while. To get a good system in there that would actually work I'm sure you are cutting out concrete... time to move!

[Fluid Power]

We just installed radiant tube heaters in my warehouse. I was spending a fortune in propane to use the old Reznor heaters. Everything was cold even though the temp was set at 70*. The new tube heaters work awesome. It is low even heat that heats the slab and everything in warehouse. We can set the temp at 65* and it feels a ton warmer. I asked my sales guy about installing them in my shop at home (30x40) but I was concerned about leaving them at a constant temperature if I was not going to be out there that often. He assured me that they had home units that work just as well and are cost effective and efficient. We bought the reverb-a-ray brand for what it is worth.

Darren

[RussMurco]

Fortunately I'm in North TX and its only cold a few months out of the year that I would use it. I've got full HVAC in the shop and even though I can keep the shop nice and toasty it still gets COLD laying on the concrete crawling under cars. I feel for you guys up north...I just couldn't do it!

I just moved here from Dallas a couple of years ago, don't rub it in! :(

I talked with our slab guy, he reminded me that I have a building that is slightly over the size it was supposed to be so getting a new building permit may invite more headaches. Oh boy!

I may talk to a radiant tube heater rep, it seems like the most cost efficient way to do what I want to accomplish. Bret is right though, that slab sucks away the heat so quickly so I'm doubting how effective a floor-based heater would be.

Or maybe... I'll invent a heated creeper!!!:woot:

[Sieg]

I'm using vinyl flooring remnants of the new generation of foam backed fiberglass stabilized lose lay products on my concrete floor and they act as a decent insulator. The 230v Hot One heater at top center of the picture has worked exceptional. The garage is only 790 s.f. but well insulated (R32 doors) and I never run the heater thermostat past 50% and that keeps the garage at 68*. Based on electrical rates it isn't costing more than $25 a month to heat it.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3pM2sdS/1/L/i-3pM2sdS-L.jpg

The heavier weight floors from Mannington or Tarkett's commercial rating flooring have held up well and you should be able to get rems for $1 s.f. or so.

That's the budget rout but it's effective.

[Sparks67]

I may talk to a radiant tube heater rep, it seems like the most cost efficient way to do what I want to accomplish. Bret is right though, that slab sucks away the heat so quickly so I'm doubting how effective a floor-based heater would be.

Your current heating system is the typical forced air furnace. Which relies on the air as heat transfer. Less effective design, and more costly in fuel costs.


While radiant heat is design to heat the objects in the room. Radiant heat is like the sun, it heats objects. So, it can be the floor, radiant panels in the wall, or Radiant tube heater. You walk by the radiant tube heater and almost get a tan. It is so like the sun. You should see a dramatic reduction in costs to heat your building vs a forced air system. Bret's radiant floor heat is very effective. I feel less tired in radiant heated building than with forced air.

Here is a video that should help you out in your decision. Detroit Radiant has several video's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wjiQUYkols

I recommend that you contact your local plumbing/heating contractor, because they have access to the various brands of infrared tube heaters in your local area. I have contacted the suppliers, and they never seem to call back.

[Sparks67]

I'm using vinyl flooring remnants of the new generation of foam backed fiberglass stabilized lose lay products on my concrete floor and they act as a decent insulator.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3pM2sdS/1/L/i-3pM2sdS-L.jpg

Yeah, I have these in the garage as well. They get slick, when the snow drips off my truck on to these vinyl floor remnants. I need to get rid of them.

[DBasher]

Radiant wall heaters would be a good option for someone with a completed garage. I'm at a building now with the old wall radiators. Boiler tripped and shut off 3 days ago, now that it's fixed it's bringing everything back up to temperature pretty quick...I'll go lay on the floor and see how it feels.:rofl:

Dan

So after 4hrs it went from 41 to 56 degrees. Not bad for an old set up that once burned coal than oil and now gas...

[Sparks67]

Radiant wall heaters would be a good option for someone with a completed garage. I'm at a building now with the old wall radiators. Boiler tripped and shut off 3 days ago, now that it's fixed it's bringing everything back up to temperature pretty quick...I'll go lay on the floor and see how it feels.:rofl:

Dan

So after 4hrs it went from 41 to 56 degrees. Not bad for an old set up that once burned coal than oil and now gas...

Actually, they are not good option. I spoke with my plumbing contractor which is a friend of mine and he has installed them, and the radiant wall heaters are better if you are building a new garage with insulation. The infrared radiant tube heaters can be installed in any building/garage. A friend has them installed in his shop that was built in late 1890's.

[GregWeld]

The problem with infrared heaters that glo red hot is that they also heat you... and I don't know about how you guys feel but when I'm working on stuff I don't like to be heated... I want to work in a warm vs cold environment. So placement of this type of heating is really important. Think sitting in a restaurant with a infrared heater too close to you...

When my shed gets past 70* I open a door if I'm doing anything 'active'. It's just too warm to work. I also think below 60* is just as uncomfortable.

I wanted to use heated floors in the shed but it got too complicated with the city codes. Weird codes which had NOTHING to do with a closed hot water heating system... but that's a whole different discussion.

If I wasn't going to heat the shed 24/7 I'd use Natural gas style heat - they heat air quickly and can bring the space up to temp pretty quickly... They're compact and don't require ducting etc. They also recover quickly if you open the garage doors etc to do something.

Electric is just too expensive and too slow unless you heat 24/7 so they're ineffective.

The other thing a guy could do himself is to plumb copper or wirsbo to some water radiator style heaters (around the floor level) and use a hot water tank for the heat source.

just an example of the "tube style" -- there's all kinds of them out there.
http://www.aimradiantheating.com/store/FinTubeBaseboard_3_4_Element_Only.html

Of course you'd have to have a circulating pump but they're not very expensive and not very big either...

But regardless of what your heat source is -- it's about INSULATION.... and then all heat is BTU's -- and you have to calculate what the building space is going to take.

[DBasher]

The infared gas heaters kick ass for sure and that's one way to go. The radiant heaters are another option for a fully finished and insulated garage like the one being discussed. :thumbsup:

As smart as some plumbers are, talking to them about heating is like talking to your electrian about circuit boards and controls. Installing and fully understanding systems are two seperate deals. I'm not a sparky or a turd hurder although I do and have done both more than I've wanted:_paranoid

If it were me, and I had this guys set up, I'd intall two of the radiant tubes and be done with it. Gas already on site and building already insulated, bing, bang, boom.

:cheers:
Dan

[Fluid Power]

The problem with infrared heaters that glo red hot is that they also heat you... and I don't know about how you guys feel but when I'm working on stuff I don't like to be heated... I want to work in a warm vs cold environment. So placement of this type of heating is really important. Think sitting in a restaurant with a infrared heater too close to you...

When my shed gets past 70* I open a door if I'm doing anything 'active'. It's just too warm to work. I also think below 60* is just as uncomfortable.

I wanted to use heated floors in the shed but it got too complicated with the city codes. Weird codes which had NOTHING to do with a closed hot water heating system... but that's a whole different discussion.

If I wasn't going to heat the shed 24/7 I'd use Natural gas style heat - they heat air quickly and can bring the space up to temp pretty quickly... They're compact and don't require ducting etc. They also recover quickly if you open the garage doors etc to do something.

Electric is just too expensive and too slow unless you heat 24/7 so they're ineffective.

The other thing a guy could do himself is to plumb copper or wirsbo to some water radiator style heaters (around the floor level) and use a hot water tank for the heat source.

just an example of the "tube style" -- there's all kinds of them out there.
http://www.aimradiantheating.com/store/FinTubeBaseboard_3_4_Element_Only.html

Of course you'd have to have a circulating pump but they're not very expensive and not very big either...

But regardless of what your heat source is -- it's about INSULATION.... and then all heat is BTU's -- and you have to calculate what the building space is going to take.

Greg, the tube style radiant heaters we installed do not glow. Other then the fact that it is warm in the warehouse, you do not even know they are on. You can feel them if you stand directly under them, but they are not like the red hot ones at restaurants that you see or the old style ones that turned bright red when they are on.

Darren

[DBasher]

Greg that's kinda what I'm talking about. Im sure you remember the old cast iron radiators that were used with a hot water loop.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-12-32-ECO-Biasi-Flat-Panel-Hot-Water-Steel-Hydronic-Radiator-12-H-x-32-W-/160936725769#vi-content

Good excuse to bring hot water to the shop, next you'll be washing the car with warm water, wet sanding, making your own espresso....:lol:

[GregWeld]

Greg, the tube style radiant heaters we installed do not glow. Other then the fact that it is warm in the warehouse, you do not even know they are on. You can feel them if you stand directly under them, but they are not like the red hot ones at restaurants that you see or the old style ones that turned bright red when they are on.

Darren



Good to know.... 'cause I've been under some that would just flat be uncomfortable to work around. And they seem to be an ON or OFF kind of heat.

[GregWeld]

Greg that's kinda what I'm talking about. Im sure you remember the old cast iron radiators that were used with a hot water loop.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-12-32-ECO-Biasi-Flat-Panel-Hot-Water-Steel-Hydronic-Radiator-12-H-x-32-W-/160936725769#vi-content

Good excuse to bring hot water to the shop, next you'll be washing the car with warm water, wet sanding, making your own espresso....:lol:


EXACTLY.... Get yourself a 200 gallon Nat Gas hot water tank -- and plumb it up!

[Fluid Power]

Good to know.... 'cause I've been under some that would just flat be uncomfortable to work around. And they seem to be an ON or OFF kind of heat.

The ones we installed are incredibly efficient. They draw cold outside air and vent out the roof. No exposed flame. They are on a programmable thermostat. We let the warehouse cool off to 55 over night and then heat the warehouse to 65 during the day. Once it is at 65* The first stage burner is the only burner that comes on to keep it warm. If we crank it up to 75* both burners kick in and warm the space up quickly. If the over head door is open for delivery's, (twice a day at least) the warehouse does not cool off since everything in the space is 65*! Nothing worse than working in my shop at home and have the heater running and it is nice and toasty and then grab a wrench (or get on the floor) and have the tools feel like it is 25*!

Darren

[Garage Dog 65]

The ones we installed are incredibly efficient.

Darren


Hey Darren, can ya hit us with a link to those please. Thx !

:lateral:

Jim

[Sparks67]

The problem with infrared heaters that glo red hot is that they also heat you... and I don't know about how you guys feel but when I'm working on stuff I don't like to be heated... I want to work in a warm vs cold environment. So placement of this type of heating is really important. Think sitting in a restaurant with a infrared heater too close to you...

When my shed gets past 70* I open a door if I'm doing anything 'active'. It's just too warm to work. I also think below 60* is just as uncomfortable.


There is different brands, but Modine and Detroit Radiant tube heaters don't glow red. They are low intensity infrared heaters. Which are sealed units. They are vented to the outside. Which make it perfect for garages, body shops, and most buildings. My friend's dad has been using them since 1990. Typically, he runs his around 55* to 60*, but he has heated it up past that temperature during painting. (The above companies are commercial products, so they go by distributor. Which means they don't have installers. Your local plumbing/heating contractor will be your installer. )

There is another type called High Intensity infrared, which is open flame, and usually a box type unit. So, this is the type that you might be thinking about. Also, Mr. Heater has one for the home garage. The biggest problem with them, is that unit is not vented. So, you will about pass out on the floor.

Jeff

Garage Dog 65 here is the links, but your local plumbing/heating contractor will do the installing, and he can get the units at a discount.

http://www.ultimategarageheater.com/

http://www.modinehvac.com/v2portal/page/portal/hvac/hvacCommercialDefault/hvac_com/commercial_hvac/level_2_content2_013.htm

http://reverberray.com/


Steam heat can be done, but realize that you are heating a 200 gallon water tank. I recently went to tankless water heater for hot water, but not sure it be efficient for the garage. Perhaps Solar instead of natural gas. Just not an option in ohio, because it is overcast. Anyway, Modine has that option too.
(Typically, I see the infrared radiant heaters in body shops. Steam heat might cause rusting of the bare metal parts on the car.)