Coil over VS 5" sping an external shock?

[badmatt]

So I have been wondering if there IS any real advantage to running a true coil-over compared to running a 5"/5.5" OD coil spring with a separate double adjustable shock?

Anybody have any insight on what works better or if there really is a huge difference where I can justify cutting up my buckets a whole ton to run a full length coil over? The QA1 set up will not provide me with many spring rates due to the conical spring design. But i can get tons of options in either the full coil over or a 5/5.5" coil.

Its not a matter of how much work, But more or less any REAL performance gain?

Is it more of a shock and spring working in the same arc or motion or being on the same relative plain?


Matt

[Track Junky]

I'm not running coil overs up front yet but I'll chime in here in hopes to learn something and possibly add. I can name two advantages that comes to mind with coil overs.....the first being ease of ride height adjustability in order to achieve desired corner weights and two being the ease of changing spring rates.

[badmatt]

Gaetano, About adjusting the height or the weight per corner you can run one of these..

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Front-Weight-Jack,3386.html

Just my though and I wouldn't be opposed to using this.

[Rod P]

So I have been wondering if there IS any real advantage to running a true coil-over compared to running a 5"/5.5" OD coil spring with a separate double adjustable shock?



curious also, on the edge of doing the same swap

[Track Junky]

Gaetano, About adjusting the height or the weight per corner you can run one of these..

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Front-Weight-Jack,3386.html

Just my though and I wouldn't be opposed to using this.

Thats an interesting little set up but not the direction i'm headed.

I know that all you wanted to compare was performance and on that venue alone I really couldn't say only because i have never run up against that situation due to most here running auto-x events and I have never run up agains't any of the top guys on this site in that respect. I will say that I am certainly not intimidated by coil over set ups and think I can run pretty darn decent but i'm not getting any younger and just want to be able to adjust with less effort. Even adjusting shocks with a conventional spring set up is a pain in the ass up front.
For me a chicane set up with coil over shock is the direction I am headed but it wont be until the 2014 season. So in actuality I should be able to give you a realistic answer in 2014 as this coming 2013 season I will still be using the conventional set up. Sorry, thats the best I can do for now. :D

[badmatt]

I know where your coming from like the chicayne kit id like to try and run that BUT I would have to cut up most of my upper cross shaft mount to do so because of my frame bucket (s10) and the "bolt in" coil over kit from QA1 is junk in my opinion just because of the spring rates and the over all amount of drop I want to run.

So there is where the "nascar" set up comes to mind because of working with the air bagged trucks running a standard 7" bag in the pocket and out board shocks it works... so Im thinking of trying this with a coil and the jack plate. (air bags suck btw for spring rate control, again my opinion so dont crucify me ridetech people)

Anybody got any Idea's or thought's on this?

Matt

[DEIGuy38]

You could run these adjusters. The adjusters you show won't let you run a shock through the middle. These are the same style Mark Stielow ran in the Thrasher 69 camaro and Carl Casanova ran in his 68 Camaro. Here is my add in the for sale section. I was going to run these but went with DSE Speed kit 2 and Quadralink. Gaetano has seen my car.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=39350 If you are interested let me know, make offers. I just finished the install of the speed kit 2 yesterday so need these gone.

[exwestracer]

If you go to a full coil over, you have the option of moving the lower mount much closer to the lower ball joint. This in turn allows you to run a much lighter lower arm and softer spring rate. Also, the entire package is a little lighter, if for no other reason than the smaller spring.

I'm glad someone brought up the point about needing to move the shock if you go to the stock car weight jack. Where would you put the shock at that point? You're in the same boat as the air bag guys...

[IMPALA MAN]

Take the total weight of:
Upper and lower (steel) spring buckets/cups (which you can remove when going to coil-overs) + two 5" springs

Then take the total weight of:
Two (aluminum) coil-over kits that go on the shock + two 2-1/2" coil springs.

Multiply the difference times two and I think you will see the third advantage.
Since one end of the shock is connected to the "sprung" part of the suspension and the other end is connected to the "unsprung" part of the suspension. The weight savings affects both sprung and unsprung weights.

[badmatt]

If you go to a full coil over, you have the option of moving the lower mount much closer to the lower ball joint. This in turn allows you to run a much lighter lower arm and softer spring rate. Also, the entire package is a little lighter, if for no other reason than the smaller spring.

I'm glad someone brought up the point about needing to move the shock if you go to the stock car weight jack. Where would you put the shock at that point? You're in the same boat as the air bag guys...

Shock relocation is the easy part. I am going to sink it into the frame and the top mount will be welded to the front stringers of the cage. (For turning radius purposes)

Sorta like this but with out the upper mount.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/badmatt/Erictruckpics519_zps96b9bb4d.jpg

OR am I heading in a wrong direction?

Matt

[exwestracer]

Personally, I don't think I'd go that route on a performance build. Ideally, you want the shock pushing directly against the spring (concentric). With that offset mount, you will be inducing some twist into the lower arm as the shock tries to resist the spring motion. Depending on the arm design, this may not be a huge deal, but we spend a lot of effort in getting all the compliance out of the suspension, and in that case the shock is definitely not directly counteracting the load.

Looks cool, though...

[badmatt]

Ok now my next question, Does the spring have to be concentric or can it be on the same Plain and a relative arc of motion?

Reason I ask is that my lower control arm shock mounts can be in the same line of the center of the coil spring.

Im not disregarding your knowledge at all just trying to figure out a feasible way of making this work.

But there has been one other option I Have been looking at. What Brian did with his camaro.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/badmatt/IMG_3746_zpsac47fcf9.jpg

But this is the extreme of what I would like to do. lower control arm is a tad short on these trucks.

Or in the chicayne kit format.

Matt

[Track Junky]

I also dont like the way your shock is currently set up at the front of the a-arm. I'm going to standby here and wait for Ray's answer but I'm pretty sure your going to want both shock and spring working on the same plane.

This might be a dumb question but it sounds like you want to incorporate the air bags in your set up?

[badmatt]

No air ride....

[badmatt]

I also dont like the way your shock is currently set up at the front of the a-arm.


the shock would be rearward of the arm.

[Track Junky]

Quite honestly I would do it the way Hobaugh did his. If the cost of a decent coil over shock is holding you back take a look at the Afco double adjustable coil overs. They list them as a pro-touring coil over and go for $300 each.

[badmatt]

Cost isn't the issue im worried about.

I was looking at running JRI units anyways.

I went and spent some time out in the garage this eve looking and contemplating, took and old QA1 I had sitting around from a previous project and It looks like I can make it work the way Brian did.

Ill just have to cut the entire bucket off the frame and close it up (no big deal not as bad as I thought before) I just wont have it at NEARLY the same angle as Brian due to my short control arms. (damn S truck)

BUT back to the original question at foot that may help some other people out since my quest is over.

Matt

[Track Junky]

Glad to hear it. Hopefully Ray will chime in here soon but I dont think shock angle will be an issue even if you had to set it up straight up and down.

As far as the difference from the conventional spring/shock combo compared to coil over goes I'm sure Hobaugh will be running at T-Hill this upcoming season so I will be looking forward to comparing my lap times with his.

[exwestracer]

Ok now my next question, Does the spring have to be concentric or can it be on the same Plain and a relative arc of motion?

Reason I ask is that my lower control arm shock mounts can be in the same line of the center of the coil spring.

Im not disregarding your knowledge at all just trying to figure out a feasible way of making this work.

But there has been one other option I Have been looking at. What Brian did with his camaro.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/badmatt/IMG_3746_zpsac47fcf9.jpg

But this is the extreme of what I would like to do. lower control arm is a tad short on these trucks.

Or in the chicayne kit format.

Matt

Not sure I'm understanding your comment on the control arm length... The arm could be the exact same length no matter what you do with the spring and/or shock. What you have pictured here is by far the BEST layout for what you are asking, IMO. Only thing I would change would be to extend (or redesign) the top mount to get the shock as upright as possible. There is still room left in the upper arm to move the shock out further, even allowing for angle change in compression.

Any time the shock is outside the spring, the LCA needs to be built heavier to resist the force offset between the shock and spring. The further away the shock is located (in any direction), the beefier the arm needs to be. Keep in mind I am looking at this from a pure design standpoint, NOT saying that any available arms or components "won't work"...

[badmatt]

What I am describing the short control arms is the actual length of my lower control arms and placement of the lower coil over mount in relation to the ball joint.

I'm dealing with an S10 which lets face it, is not the most ideal vehicle to make turn. But with cutting the outer portion of the spring bucket off the frame rail and plating it flat with the rest of the frame and running the coil over as close to vertical as possible is the best way to go.

Thank you For the advice and direction Ray, It is greatly appreciated. Now since you have stepped in expect seeing a couple PM's from me :D

Matt