Which PT car has a better resale value

[garickman]

Just wondering?

[g356gear]

If building a classic pro touring muscle car such as a camaro, mustang, trans am, etc., which do you think would have more resale value.

1. Car with modified suspension (DSE, RideTech, Roadster Shop), modified performance engine, modified brakes (C6, Baer, Wilwood), modified wheels which retain somewhat of a classic look while keeping the exterior and interior pretty much stock looking with original color schemes. The ultimate sleeper look.

OR

2. Car with modified everything, suspension, wheels, brakes, custom one-off interior, custom paint colors and modified metal work, like bumpers, spoilers, grills, etc.

My vote is for #1. If its too custom, it represents somebody else's tastes and is a tougher car to sell. To appeal to the masses, you need a more neutral color and modification spectrum.

[Vegas69]

Depends on your taste and the quality of work. :D In most cases, number 1.

[Flash68]

#1 in your examples for sure.

The more you spend on one-off custom stuff, the less pennies on the dollar you are likely to get later.

[ironworks]

Unless you put mustang stripes on a Camaro.... Priceless

[Flash68]

Unless you put mustang stripes on a Camaro.... Priceless

Yes! Yes! :lateral:

[MarkM66]

#1 would definitely get a better return on investment.

[Rick D]

Yup #1 as stated above, the more you spend on those custom mods the more you have invested in the car. Now you have less of a market to sell to because you have to get more for the car to move to the brake even point.

Just for the record building cars to resell is NOT a good place to make money. As I'm sure you know as you build it your taste and stile will go into the build, now you have to find someone that wants to own that car, not just like it as most will say (cool I like it) but do they want to own it??

[Sieg]

#1

The GLM (gross loss margin) will most likely be better than #2.
Build cost - Sale price = net loss / Build cost
90,000 - 60,000 = -30,000 / 90,000 = -33.33%
60,000 - 32,000 = 28,000 / 60,000 = -46.66%

At least that's one way to look at it.

The real value is your personal enjoyment factor in the project. :thumbsup:

[Steve Chryssos]

The venue matters as well. A stock presentation will sell better on Camaros.net, but at Barrett-Jackson Vegas, as an example, visual impact and extreme hardware can really bring in the big bucks.

I doubt the current owner of II Much is wondering about resale value while barreling across a desert road at a buck-twenty-five.

"Does this spoiler make my butt look big...."

0a6atyh13lY

[Steve1968LS2]

Depends on your taste and the quality of work. :D In most cases, number 1.

Number one since "doing things outside the box" usually ends up being a love-it/hate-it deal and will appeal to less buyers.

Also, if you spend a fortune on custom bodywork you're most likely not to get a return on that money when you sell.

The more expensive a car is the less chance you have to sell it and come close to breaking even.

[Payton King]

What are you building next?

[ironworks]

I think I tend to disagree with some of the other comments. A stock appearing say 69 camaro would be much easier to sell but I think anything over 100k would be hard to get in most instances even with all DSE stuff and your above average crate engine. Heck look at Camaro X that the man, the myth, the Legend,................. Mark Stielow built and they tried to sell for months. Charlie finally repainted it to sell it. Or look at Todds camaro.

I also agree Barrett Jackson is a roll of the dice, but there have been quite a handful of cars sell for 250k in the past couple of years. Heck that Kindig it Mustang just sold for 250 or 275 with fees. It brought more money then the car that won street machine of the year the same year it competed. But the car has to stand out in a crowd.

I have been kicking around this same thought for a while. If you took 2 69 Camaros and one was stock appearing with everything DSE sells. So stock appearing with all the typical goodies. Now if you took the same shell of a car to (insert shop name here ) and they did TASTEFUL and MASS APPEALING body mods and their color choice that was popular with currently styling. Then took both to whatever Barrett Jackson event, I would bet money the custom unit would do better. But then you say sure it would do better it has a bigger investment. Yes it does but I think you would get more money out of the custom one to make up the difference in build cost plus. That is saying the suspension, brakes, engine trans, and paint quality are all equal. The custom one would have custom Body mods and a more stylish interior. But for the most part be equal after those specs.

Now if we talk about selling the car to a guy who walks up at your first show with more money then sense and just has to have the car then you will hit it big. I had a customer display a very high end car at SEMA and had an interested party with a foreign English accent ask about purchasing said vehicle for a considerable amount more then build cost. Almost 50% more. The customer was firm in the fact he did not want to sell it, cuz it was the first show and it had some special family value you can't buy. If he ever decides to the sell the car he will kick himself.

Now when you get into all the crazy bells and whistles and stuff, that is when you can loose your ass. Most people could care less if its some bad ass tube chassis triple throw down 5 way adjustable shock, full floater, stainless header and exhaust, well done bondo bucket as long as it looks and runs good and the paint does not fall off and everything works properly. Those items just interest the original owner and a select few you purchase cars for that reason. But the mass majority of people could care less.

Ok let the dog pile begin.

[clill]

Camaro X still had a GM subframe and was painted white. Not alot of people looking for white cars.

I think a fresh one off custom car will bring good money if it is marketed and sold when it is brand new. Not after it has been exposed, in mags etc. I think the 69 Camaro is a timeless design that stands on it's own regardless of what the latest trend is. I like to stay closer to stock looking. If you build the latest trend you will probably be out of style about the time you want to sell it.

[MarkM66]

I also agree Barrett Jackson is a roll of the dice, but there have been quite a handful of cars sell for 250k in the past couple of years. Heck that Kindig it Mustang just sold for 250 or 275 with fees. It brought more money then the car that won street machine of the year the same year it competed. But the car has to stand out in a crowd.


Yeah, it brought good money this year. But I didn't think the Kindig Mustang met the reserve at BJ LV '11. But then is sold at Mecum KC, 12/2011 for $121k . I remember watching Mecum when it sold, I was very surprised when they lifted the reserve at that price. Something seems fishy to me...

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=KC1211-119362

[Bryan O]

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?ln=1260&aid=443

[Steve Chryssos]

Camaro X still had a GM subframe and was painted white. Not alot of people looking for white cars.

I think a fresh one off custom car will bring good money if it is marketed and sold when it is brand new. Not after it has been exposed, in mags etc. I think the 69 Camaro is a timeless design that stands on it's own regardless of what the latest trend is. I like to stay closer to stock looking. If you build the latest trend you will probably be out of style about the time you want to sell it.

I'm with this guy. Smart folks can spot a full-on, comprehensive build with a custom front clip, link rear suspension, great brakes, etc. A solid number of buyers are willing to pay good money in order to sidestep the build hassles.

And the folks at Barrett-Jackson, for example, know darn well how to tell a stock clip from an aftermarket clip during the consignment phase. I don't know about the other auction houses. I've had this conversation with the VP of Consignment at B-J recently and he'd love to see more full-on builds cross the block.

Perhaps a better question is: What is the ceiling for a budget with the proper list of hard parts, if resale matters?

$75K cost??

[Vegas69]

After marketing my car for 45 days or so I can tell you that most of the buyers are looking for a deal of some sort. I had multiple offers around 80-82,500. Their first concern was cost, not the car.

I knew I had found my buyer when the first 30 minutes was about the car, not money.

Now, I had one of the most marketable cars on the planet. A black 69, ZL1, great stance, nice wheels, in good condition. I do think it would have brought a higher number in fresh restoration condition. (Not enough for the bath with no use) I had many buyers with concern that the car had been used and some thought a little abused. The ultimate buyer is an engineer with classic car experience. He was thrilled that it was sorted out and he could DRIVE it. That's a 1 in a 100 buyer and I found him.

You are going to take a bath almost no matter what you do. Unless you are one of the few that hit a home run at Barrett Jackson. I wasn't going down that road. After costs and time, it has to bring a high number. With all this being said, resale was on my mind from the day I started building my car. I don't get attached to material things and I knew the day would come. I'm guessing I took a $45,000-$50,000 bath on the car. Never again......

Next year I'll find one with good paint and little rust and tweak it to my liking. I'll enjoy it more since it won't be so damn nice.

[Steve1968LS2]

After marketing my car for 45 days or so I can tell you that most of the buyers are looking for a deal of some sort. I had multiple offers around 80-82,500. Their first concern was cost, not the car.

I knew I had found my buyer when the first 30 minutes was about the car, not money.

Now, I had one of the most marketable cars on the planet. A black 69, ZL1, great stance, nice wheels, in good condition. I do think it would have brought a higher number in fresh restoration condition. (Not enough for the bath with no use) I had many buyers with concern that the car had been used and some thought a little abused. The ultimate buyer is an engineer with classic car experience. He was thrilled that it was sorted out and he could DRIVE it. That's a 1 in a 100 buyer and I found him.

You are going to take a bath almost no matter what you do. Unless you are one of the few that hit a home run at Barrett Jackson. I wasn't going down that road. After costs and time, it has to bring a high number. With all this being said, resale was on my mind from the day I started building my car. I don't get attached to material things and I knew the day would come. I'm guessing I took a $45,000-$50,000 bath on the car. Never again......

Next year I'll find one with good paint and little rust and tweak it to my liking. I'll enjoy it more since it won't be so damn nice.

Yea, I will have a better opinion on this topic after I try to sell my car.. lol

"Yea, I rev it up from time to time, but I'm not THAT hard on it"... ;)

[Steve1968LS2]

I have wondered that about the carbon fiber craze going on. I know most people go with the carbon fiber products to reduce weight, (I would to if I had the money) but are the exposed carbon panels and the masking of various racing stripes eventually going to date the build. Kind of like the graphics craze of the 80's and 90's?

I would think materials would be different from designs (think tribal stripes)

After all, polished aluminum never went out of style, nore did chrome.. but yea, the whole CF everything just for looks might be replaced by something else.

[Sieg]

I think the 69 Camaro is a timeless design that stands on it's own regardless of what the latest trend is. I like to stay closer to stock looking. :thumbsup:

[Sieg]

I have wondered that about the carbon fiber craze going on. I know most people go with the carbon fiber products to reduce weight, (I would to if I had the money) but are the exposed carbon panels and the masking of various racing stripes eventually going to date the build. Kind of like the graphics craze of the 80's and 90's?

The next trend could be carbon panels for their weight reduction and strength with vinyl wraps for easy of change and durability.

[uxojerry]

Im new to this stuff but have formed some opinions based on first hand experience. I only bring up my opinions to be helpful.

My interest is primarily in vintage Corvettes. I am building a pro-touring 65 Coupe and have a 68 Coupe rolling body ready for deployment. There are 50-75 custom Corvettes that go up for sale every year at the auction houses. Generally they are called resto-mods but are closer to pro-touring than most would think. Few come with roll over protection so that is one difference and most are geared towards comfort and driveabliity versus top-end performance.

Generally a pro-touring Camaro with all the functional bells and whistles, will cost +- $100k if there are no issues/compromises with $$$. Many end up being two seater performance cars. Most will have custom subframes but not chassis. Few to none will have irs.

A pro-touring Corvette/resto-mod will cost the same or less depending on donor car purchase cost. The C1-C3 modded car will have custom chassis, modern irs, drive train etc. For the same build cost and quality components, a superior car can be built if you consider custom chassis and irs superior. I know lots of guys will disagree with that "superior" comment. I say superior because it is mentioned many times in the Camaro/Mustang comparisons of newer cars.

C2 Corvettes are expensive. My build $$$ goal was to build the 65 to 100% of the performance values of a C6 Z06 and not exceed the cost of a new C6 ZR1. Im 90% done and so far so good. For the C3, I can almost reverse the goals and build ZR1 performance for the cost of a top of the line Z06.

Z06/ZR1 cars are expensive so it is easier to build a vintage PT corvette and have a better potential resale value. For evidence go to the BJ auction site search section, and type in custom Corvettes. It will spit up several years of auction sales and each car can be studied to estimate build cost versus return.

Last, my 65 donor car was around $35k, way too expensive, lol. My 68 donor was $3.5k with many C3 nom driveable cars in the $4k-$10k range. I am not building these cars to make money but didnt want to pi$$ it away either, lol. I will never sell them or at least have no plans to do so. I am simply sharing info for the guy who is searching for his next project and isnt happy with the prices of available vintage donor cars. When the cars are done I will join a motorsports ranch and have fun on the weekends. Watch out for the old retired Army guy, lol.

[Musclerodz]

Look at what Roadster Shop, Trepanier, Strope, Ring Brothers, DSE are all building. A bunch of stock looking cars with state or the art drivetrain. I think that is where the educated market is, the guys that know what they want. The guys that had the same rust bucket in hogh school and wants to relive his youth albeit finanicially much better. The one offs that will always be done are those individuals that want their personal touches and I doubt they are looking at resale numbers when they are done. Those usually guys take a bath on except the occasional home run.

Barrett Jackson I think is a different buyer on the whole. I think there if it looks the part and is the right color, I think it will bring ballprak price to a full tilt PT car and BJ has proved that point on several occasions as well.

[Gatekeeper]

Just out of curiosity, what does everyone think is the best selling color? Both interior and exterior.

I think red and black, exterior or interior are the best sellers. But I work for a car manufacturer and I see alot of other colors that would work for me.
:yes:

[Vegas69]

mayhem is such a bad ass pro t car that mark probably just bumped the value of the 67 camaros, after reading about the build of mayhem i learned the 67 as a little smaller and lighter than the 69s:yes: i had no idea, cool to know, light is better but i personally like the body stye more than the 69, and vent windows rock....

i think #2 but within reason on the mods, a few interior changes can really improve the looks of some cars a lot...

Not likely, a majority of buyers won't have a clue who Mark Stielow is or have seen Mayhem. His cars are the cream of the crop and have added value due to his reputation.

[Revved]

IMHO....

I've dealt with buyers and sellers in this market trying to move cars, I've been around the BJ crowd, and I've been building and rebuilding and dealing with the high end market for the last 7 years and this is what I've observed...

70% of the "buyers" have gotten the itch from a buddy that has a cool car. They have the means to buy what they want from their chosen career path and they have tired with the pedestrian Ferrari or Lamborhini and want something "different." These are your guys that are more about shopping the price than the car. Most wouldn't know a spark plug from a seat belt let alone a quality build. If they are lucky enough to find someone to educate them they will do alright and grow with the hobby but most of the time they end up buying a piece of junk that looks shiny and makes alot of noice, paying twice what it is worth then paying again to rebuild it. This is sad because many of these guys could become ligit car guys but end up getting burned and then get out.

20% are "car guys" who while they mechanically know about cars they really don't understand what goes into a comprehensive build. They would look at one of Stielow's cars and then look at a decent garage build with a shiny paint job and while the would know that Mark's car looks better they wouldn't know why. They would recognize that both cars come with good hardware but wouldn't appreciate the subtle details that define a high end car. Because these guys also don't truly know what goes into a high end build they will typically shop price over value... but they can also be educated into why a Stielow build has more value.... usually. Please no one take offense to this... just think of all of the car guys you know that have dismantled a car to restore it and then sold it years later in boxes because they ran out of drive. Living this business just gives you a different perspective on what building a car means.

Now if you are selling a car you want someone in this next 10% to show up

5% are Repeat Offenders. They have bought or built cars themselves. They have been through the drama of buying and rebuilding a bad car. They have caught the bug. They hang out in places like Lateral-G and have educated themselves. Although they may not have first hand experience putting together every nut and bolt on a build they have seen it happen and may have been writing checks to see that it was done right. They have an appreciation for quality and will pay for it rather than go through the drama again.

5% are professionals representing clients with the finanical means but not the technical background. These clients want a car that they can turn a key and go but never get their hands dirty so they hire someone like me to go shop cars for them. Typically if a professional shows up at your door it has already been shopped against a dozen other builds and your car initially meets the criteria the client is looking for. Professionals are a double edged sword; if you have a quality build it will be documented and you have a good chance of a sale for a solid price. If it isn't you will see a lot of note taking, head shaking and grumbling under his breath and will probably never hear from them again or get a lowball offer.


It is unfortunate to say that I've seen more bad builds than I have good builds. The "no holds barred, no expense spared" tag line is a red flag for something that will likely be junk. I've inspected $250,000 builds that they couldn't give away for $100k because the build was so bad. Another red flag is when a car is sold, then a year later sold again, then a year later sold again... I inspected a Charger build at on an auction floor two years ago that was like this. My client had been following the car and kept missing his chance to buy it and when it popped up at local auction he hired me to go look at it and it was a train wreck... another supposedly $200k "nothing held back" build. Good hardware where it was visible but poor planning everywhere else. Black paint was pinholed toe to tail.... The car sold for double what I felt it was worth to an online bidder sight unseen... the same way the selling owner had bought it and he was glad to unload it for most of what he paid for it.


I'd love to tell you that a quality build always means that you will sell your car for top dollar and a junk car will always sell for junk but the reality is that there are no guaratees in this business. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and thus goes the checkbook.

A top tier Builder name does go a long way to justifying value but if you can afford one of those names you probably aren't worried about resale. Beyond that it is really about build quality beyond the visual areas. Plan out all of your component locations before you make the permanent. Take the extra time to lay your wiring and plumbing cleanly. Minimize everything you can for a cleaner look. Be sure all the off show surface are properly painted and dressed. Use quality hardware everywhere. Spend the money for a decent exhaust system (Midas doesn't cut it for a $50k build let alone a 200k build.) Build the car rough- do all of your cutting, welding, grinding, fitting and then tear down the car for paint. Shop your Paint shop like your life depends on it... Bad paint will completely ruin all of the time you have invested. Make sure everything is 100% functional when done- no one wants to pay top dollar for a car that has to go right into the shop to fix sloppy workmanship .... and finally one of my pet peeves...throw away all of the scotch locks that come with the parts and wire the car properly.

I've rambled long enough! :D

[Vegas69]

:thumbsup:

[garickman]

Good information, thanks for posting:thumbsup:

[MaxHarvard]

Good write up :)

[Revved]

After thinking about this today I didn't feel like I really answered the question of the OP and my comments were too general so I was going to edit it or delete it but if you guys feel like its a good response I'll keep it up.

To answer the OP a little more succinctly I'll add this:

I've shopped many "high end builds" that have a high end price tag, a shiny paint job, a fancy engine but have stock or mildy modified suspension. They typically don't get that high end asking price. I guess what I'm saying is that you need to balance your build for your target.... just like any successful project you need to know your end result and build your plan backward towards it. It really isn't worth dropping in that $30k powerplant in a car unless you are going to build out the rest of the car to that level. It may sound like common sense but you would be surprised how often it happens. I think it really comes down to poor project planning and people running out of $$.

The reality is that you don't build cars in this business to make money unless you are a shop that has the resources to do it in house at cost. If you are private citizen building cars in this day and age you are doing it for the love of the hobby and the personal satisfaction of building your dream. But if you are going to try it here are some suggestions:

The best route to get into a car "right" is to find one that someone else has put in the time and labor to restore and then mod it from there. Find a car that has solid sheet metal and paint as the costs associated with paint and body work seem to be the most difficult to control. This obviously can be a double edged sword with the number of "metal tape and bondo" jobs out there. Either educate yourself on paint and body practices so you can properly assess a car or find someone who can even if it costs you a few $$.

Upgrade your suspension and driveline but stick with "bolt in" components; the more involved the install the more the cost spirals. Fortunately there are so many components available nowadays that make this more feasible than ever before. The options for warmed over crate engines now are limitless... everything from mild to wild depending on your budget but keep in mind that you need to plan the rest of the build around that jewel you stick under the hood... and don't forget to budget for a pulley system if it doesn't come with the engine. Don't get into major custom items like superchargers, turbos, or intercooling unless you can find an off the shelf kit that gets you 90% of the way there because they suck rediculous amounts of time (and thus $$$) to fabricate and tune.

Stick with a fairly stock interior... Improve the items the driver touches.. install some nice seats, add some custom touches like a center console and custom gauge pods but spend the time to do it right and make it look like it was born there. Another pet peeve of mine is when something looks like an add on... do it in a style that looks like it would have rolled off the showroom floor that way. You will be surprised at how much value you can add with custom uphostry without breaking the bank. Make sure any repro parts you use on the interior fit well as a poor visual due to a $20 part can cost you curb appeal.

Brakes are another item often not properly balanced in a build... make sure they are proportional to the wheel size but that doesn't mean you have to buy the biggest 6 piston brake system on the market... if you are planning for resale most manufacturers make midline systems that are 2 piston or 4 piston that use the same big rotors to give the look and although they won't have the same performance as that Baer 6S ProTouring system you saw on (insert name)'s car but it also won't have the pricetag and will function better than any stock system for street driving.

Shop ebay, shop craigslist, shop swap meets, shop lateral-G classified section. People in this hobby are constantly upgrading parts and selling used ones. Builders have an advantage over the individual in that we buy parts in volume from vendors and get our parts at wholesale or dealer cost. I've heard that Summit Racing has actually extended their wholesale pricing to individuals who spend money on a regular basis so don't be afraid to ask. They can be more liberal with who they give better terms to since 90% of the time they are out of state for taxes and everything is on CC even for their wholesale customers. Of course for those of us who buy from Summit Racing/ Atech Motorsports we know the pricing isn't always that much better than retail.... but hey.. every little bit helps when you are trying to pay the bills!

With regards to what kind of car to build and popular colors.... Mustangs and Camaros are always popular; Mopars are a more limited clientele but the are a die-hard crew. I stopped taking pics of Pro-Touring first Gen Camaros at SEMA this year because there were so many. But really as long as you aren't into building Gremlins or Prius' if you do a solid job on a build you will always find a client for it. With the level we build these pro-touring cars it ceases to be a Ford or a Chevy... These are cars built from aftermarket parts and the parts don't care what badge is on the fender. Colors are really a personal taste thing but if you are painting the car I suggest sticking with late model factory colors. This saves time and money versus a "custom mix" especially if the car ever gets damaged and if you are helping a client choose a color you can send him to the car lot to look at an actual car in that color in the real world versus a test panel.

Ok.... nuff said again... I'm blaming it on cold medicine this morning and two glasses of wine tonight! :lol:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Thanks again for the insight, you bring up some valid points.

X2. :thumbsup:

[Musclerodz]

Any thoughts on what might be a better build. A 1971 Trans Am clone or a 1971 Firebird Formula clone. For a trans am I was thinking of white with an exposed carbon fiber traditional trans am stripe down the center. For a firebird formula I was thinking of all gloss black with the twin scoop formula hood.

everyone seems to want a lucy blue t/a since they were fairly rare. my choice would be the t/a

[fleetus macmullitz]

X2.

Here's one.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1585561-455-lsx-1971-trans-am-clone-project.html

[fleetus macmullitz]

Always better to provide audio-visual aides. :cool:

yA1PYDURDEE

AED5kCcerGg

Greg, if you wanted to, you could still incorporate clear coated CF in the stock stripe pattern.