Why are people throwing a minitub and tires and calling it a pro touring?

[lutzy]

Is it me or people are throwing cars together and calling it a pro touring show car..I been looking for a quality 69 camaro since I sold mine a few months due to $$ issues. Luckly I bounced back and I have a few $ to spend. I cant believe whats out there though.

Heres a car listed on ebay and seller said it was in show condition..I looked over the pictures and video and it seems that this car looks thrown together. Paint looks great but take a look at the pic's and video's..tell me if you see what I see..
Just trying to find a quality car after selling my 69 pro-tour camaro a few months ago for unseen circumstance.
Luckly I was able to bounce back and have funds again minus my car :(
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/?cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&item=180919897727&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT


Heres some video's

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3678/...gvgwfcopro.mp4

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6...jhkbpdiasq.mp4

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9...njraeuarvq.mp4

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/1...ogaurgawba.mp4

[hifi875]

While it might not be red devil or some of the other super nice cars on our forum,it is alot closer to pro-touring than some other stuff on here. Looks like a drag car conversion to me. It wouldn't take a ton of tweaks to make it "more" protouring though. just my .02

[MarkM66]

That's nothing, most put a set of 17's on an old car and call it "pro-touring."

[Spiffav8]

I've noticed the same thing. I think it just shows that most people still don't understand what Pro Touring is.

[barrrf]

Please list the definition of Pro-Touring so I know where to start building my car. That way when I show pictures someone wont laugh at me at say "Thats not Pro-Touring lol you havent spent $12454244 on upgrades and an LS engine".

Kthx.

But seriously, where is the line that seperates Pro-Touring from not. Looks like this car could use some seats and interior upgrades and it would "Pro Touring" but I dont know. Im new to the game.

[strtcar]

I love the copper pipe fitting out of the fuel filter.

[NOPANTS68]

Conversely, there are lots of cars coming out that are more "pro" than "touring", but still using that nameplate. Tube chassis cars wrapped in carbon fiber running 4 digit power is anything but pro touring IMO.

[lutzy]

I love the copper pipe fitting out of the fuel filter.

Looks like a hose clamp too.. And if you look at the video Under the motor looks like it was hacked and box tubing welded instead of using the correct oil pan for clearance issues..

[Stuart Adams]

To me if the owner mentions pro touring it's good. There will always be levels of cars within any group. Good cars are hard to find in any classification.

Also what is one guys show car is another mans junk. It's all good.

Glad your wallet is in good shape.

[Blake Foster]

Conversely, there are lots of cars coming out that are more "pro" than "touring", but still using that nameplate. Tube chassis cars wrapped in carbon fiber running 4 digit power is anything but pro touring IMO.

:thumbsup: it is NO different that what happened to "PRO STREET" I was at the drags on saturday and a car in "PRO STREET" ran a 6.39 @ 225.
Really??
I know it is just a Class but that is as fast as some "PRO MODS"ran 4 years ago.
You will see it happen here too, the American Street Car Series will need to split up the cars as more "Race" cars show up, no disrespect to race cars I happen to Prefer them. But it makes it hard to keep the field level, most guys do not have the money, time or knoweledge to run a Racecar but the few who do will push it to and beyond the current limit and everyone will whine and the promoters will have to make different classes otherwise the lowbuck guy, who actually pays the events bills will stop showing up.

so where DO you draw the line ... at both ends? good question? I don't have a good answer.

[bret]

Reminds me of the Pro Street days in the 80's. Those cars were built to emulate a Pro Stock car...with the most visible and tangible change being a set of 15x33 Mickey Thompson tires. Hell, Rick Dobbertin [after building 2 of the most elaborate and hi profile Pro Street cars in the world, built a front wheel drive Grand Am with a big set of Mickeys under the back [leaving it front wheel drive with no other changes], and made several magazine articles!

Our cars are built to emulate a road race car...with the most visible and tangible change being a set of 17-18" wheels. Lots of people just want that "look" and cannot afford/don't want to make further investment in their cars.

Having experienced [and participated in] both movements...the "pro touring" movement is much more sensible [so far]. Our current trend of car building offers much less compromise than the old Pro Street cars. Bigger tires, bigger brakes, bigger suspensions, bigger engines all improve the overall driving experience with [usually] no compromise.

I'm good with all of it. Thank goodness for individualism and the ability to express such!

[JeffT]

Nothing says pro-touring like a set of weld on ladder bars!!! :rolleyes: Guy had a drag car, put some 18's on it and now it's pro-touring...

[daemon2]

Pro Touring:
1. must have a name
2. doesn't rattle
3. no matching numbers
4. has to compete
5.

anyone....:)

[bret]

:thumbsup: it is NO different that what happened to "PRO STREET" I was at the drags on saturday and a car in "PRO STREET" ran a 6.39 @ 225.
Really??
I know it is just a Class but that is as fast as some "PRO MODS"ran 4 years ago.
You will see it happen here too, the American Street Car Series will need to split up the cars as more "Race" cars show up, no disrespect to race cars I happen to Prefer them. But it makes it hard to keep the field level, most guys do not have the money, time or knoweledge to run a Racecar but the few who do will push it to and beyond the current limit and everyone will whine and the promoters will have to make different classes otherwise the lowbuck guy, who actually pays the events bills will stop showing up.

so where DO you draw the line ... at both ends? good question? I don't have a good answer.

I see the inevitability of this as well. How do you fight it? Well, maybe by redefining "success".

Being the contrarian that I am, I am now piddling with a 72 Chevelle that I will be making small, inexpensive changes to make it drive more like my new CTSV. Its a 350/350 A/C car...every GM dealer had anywhere from 15-50 on their lot at any one time in '72.
It runs like a top so I won't even open the hood. The handling, seats, and steering wheel suck the worst so a set of 5 series BMW seats from the swap meet, a set of our new stand alone shocks [retaining the oem springs and control arms], our taller RideTech spindles [to lower the car and improve the camber curve, better swaybars, Delrin bushings for the oem control arms, and a Momo steering wheel [because I love the way they feel] is the primary game plan. No plans to change the 15" rallye wheels [although I'll have to hunt for some decent tires soon] or the factory disc brakes. No, it will likely not keep up with my 66 Chevelle on the track, but at 70mph on the highway it will drive like a dream! Lets face it...most of us spend a whole lot more time there than on the track anyhow. I really think I can accomplish all this for well under $2,000, plus my installation time. We'll see...I'll document the time and the cost.

[Track Junky]

:thumbsup: it is NO different that what happened to "PRO STREET" I was at the drags on saturday and a car in "PRO STREET" ran a 6.39 @ 225.
Really??
I know it is just a Class but that is as fast as some "PRO MODS"ran 4 years ago.
You will see it happen here too, the American Street Car Series will need to split up the cars as more "Race" cars show up, no disrespect to race cars I happen to Prefer them. But it makes it hard to keep the field level, most guys do not have the money, time or knoweledge to run a Racecar but the few who do will push it to and beyond the current limit and everyone will whine and the promoters will have to make different classes otherwise the lowbuck guy, who actually pays the events bills will stop showing up.

so where DO you draw the line ... at both ends? good question? I don't have a good answer.

The simple answer would be to seperate by horsepower to weight ratio.

[GregWeld]

I see the inevitability of this as well. How do you fight it? Well, maybe by redefining "success".

Being the contrarian that I am, I am now piddling with a 72 Chevelle that I will be making small, inexpensive changes to make it drive more like my new CTSV. Its a 350/350 A/C car...every GM dealer had anywhere from 15-50 on their lot at any one time in '72.
It runs like a top so I won't even open the hood. The handling, seats, and steering wheel suck the worst so a set of 5 series BMW seats from the swap meet, a set of our new stand alone shocks [retaining the oem springs and control arms], our taller RideTech spindles [to lower the car and improve the camber curve, better swaybars, Delrin bushings for the oem control arms, and a Momo steering wheel [because I love the way they feel] is the primary game plan. No plans to change the 15" rallye wheels [although I'll have to hunt for some decent tires soon] or the factory disc brakes. No, it will likely not keep up with my 66 Chevelle on the track, but at 70mph on the highway it will drive like a dream! Lets face it...most of us spend a whole lot more time there than on the track anyhow. I really think I can accomplish all this for well under $2,000, plus my installation time. We'll see...I'll document the time and the cost.

What a great plan Bret! And you're right on. Most of the time is spent doing 65 MPH or less...

[Vegas69]

There is no definition for protouring. Just build your car and forget it. :D

[lutzy]

Pro Touring:
1. must have a name
2. doesn't rattle
3. no matching numbers
4. has to compete
5.

anyone....:)

5. Cost almost as much as a house?

[irishlsxer]

anyone agree that there are levels of pro touring? i personally think even if youre running hotchkis tvs or something with the intention of better handling it has some percentage of pt in it. the more you compete though definitely the more pt street cred ya got;). even within the cars themselves that can be considered pt-ing, there's grey area; that big two tone 80's caddy built a decade ago? the guy doing the porsche with the vette drive? the bottom line is good lateral dynamics where once there was none, right?

probably more food for thought than actual answers, but for the record, big shiny wheels, even if mini tubbed, dont cut it, the term itself is definitely being thrown around a good bit in the name of sales. :rolleyes:

[John510]

Anything modified from stock to run better is pro touring in my book:thumbsup:

[cacwyo]

couldn't agree more. this car is not what I imagine when I think of any thing that might resemble pro-touring. I find it some what irritating.

[irishlsxer]

Anything modified from stock to run better is pro touring in my book:thumbsup:

says the guy building a pt POSTER CAR...lololol
if you've gone aftermarket subframe, from that moment on, youre almost certainly in, period........

[Musclerodz]

Believe it or not we are the diehard minority of this arguement. Its not about "getting it" anymore. It about "getting into it". Everyone has to start somewhere, and not everyone knows about Lateral-g or Pro-touring or there would be 10 times more people here. Pro-Touring has forever changed the face of hot rodding and that is good enough for me.

[Spiffav8]

I seem to recall a thread that actually had a definition of what Pro Touring is. But...I couldn't find it. :rolleyes:

While I don't have or know the official definition, I would say there are a few basic elements that are required for a car to be considered a base line Pro Touring car. Items like disc brakes on all four corners, upgraded suspension for a better quality ride and upgraded steering.

It's just my humble opinion, but these are some good examples of PT cars (mild and wild). The last being the "poster child" if you will.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s222/spiffav8/ASIIMG_2312.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s222/spiffav8/Picture036-1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s222/spiffav8/2302244309_296c283cac_o.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s222/spiffav8/150343_10150297187765375_228682575374_15478623_538 2749_n.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s222/spiffav8/orig.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s222/spiffav8/sadamsbc-449L.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s222/spiffav8/Scotts69a.jpg

[Roberts68]

Very good point Mike. I learned of Lateral G in 2008 but I wanted to make vast improvementss to most areas of the car since I got it in '89 at 17. I did a lot of research in the early nineties when DSE was born out of a garage, PST had poly bushing kits on the back of every magazine and Dick Guldstrand answered his own phone when I called there about his templates.

Fast forward to 2012 and I am making slow progress but life takes priority. Some of my parts are out of another guys budget and others would be deemed inadequate.

I won't call my car PRO touring because I am not paying anyone and I'm pretty sure nobody is funding my efforts... although I have had a few nice Christmas surprises.

My car will be what I want it to be, Someday... when time, money and know-how align long enough for me.

[intocarss]

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?11764-Pro-Touring-defined


http://www.camaros.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-101503.html

http://supercarx.net/articles/Pro-touring%20and%20SuperCar%20X.htm

[Matt@BOS]

Ahh, the "what is pro-touring" debate again.

This reminds me, in addition to Mary Pozzi's "stick you b***" bumper sticker decals, I think we should all have some that say "WWMSD?" Or, "what would Mark Stielow do?" :lol:

Matt

[Flash68]

Oh brother not again.....

[Spiffav8]

Ahh, the "what is pro-touring" debate again.

This reminds me, in addition to Mary Pozzi's "stick you b***" bumper sticker decals, I think we should all have some that say "WWMSD?" Or, "what would Mark Stielow do?" :lol:

Matt

WWMSD That's awesome. :lol:

[6D9 Matt]

Oh brother not again.....

LOL yup

[Spiffav8]

Oh brother not again.....

With the links intocars posted I think you're safe. :lol:

[FETorino]

I thought Pro Touring meant lowered first gen Camaro, did something change?:rofl:

:cheers:

[Rick D]

I won't get into the what's pro-touring that's for sure! But I bet you can't build that car for what he wants including labor!! :thumbsup:

[Musclerodz]

If we start that arguement you might as well lock this thread now and safe us all from talking about what we had for breakfast.

[Flash68]

I thought Pro Touring meant lowered first gen Camaro, did something change?:rofl:

:cheers:

Nope, you nailed it! :lol:

[intocarss]

According to eBay.. any Camaro with torque thrust wheels is a PT car. I had to join these sites to learn the diff

[Vegas69]

Nope, you nailed it! :lol:

:yes:

To quote a very wise man: "I don't give a f...":lol:

[clill]

Maybe I don't need to point this out but I'm gonna anyway. Bret from Ridetech is in on this conversation. He is not here marketing or defending against somebodies gripe. He is here as part of this community and I don't think it is because he is trying to make a buck. I think it is because he is a car guy. There are a ton of guys that are not here for one reason or another. I don't hold that against them but I do appreciate it when commercial vendors are here to also just be car guys.:cheers:

[skatinjay27]

yeah ive never been fond of the definition debate...
but there are a couple truths i stick too:

i believe there is no set of "rules" to building a pro-touring car BUT the equivalent to the all american blonde hair blue eyed quarterback stud would be a primary color 69 CAMARO with all dse suspension, leather int,sound system,AC,big brakes, forged wheels and cup holders!:D

2nd-a late model car can NOT be pro-touring! if you modify you late model corvette,camaro, or mustang it just becomes a modified modern sports car.:)

and the most important !
if dave gordon wants, owns or loves it... its a race car and not Pro-touring :lol: :lol:

[GregWeld]

^^^^^^^^ PERFECT!!!:lol:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

yeah ive never been fond of the definition debate...
but there are a couple truths i stick too:

i believe there is no set of "rules" to building a pro-touring car BUT the equivalent to the all american blonde hair blue eyed quarterback stud would be a primary color 69 CAMARO with all dse suspension, leather int,sound system,AC,big brakes, forged wheels and cup holders!:D

2nd-a late model car can NOT be pro-touring! if you modify you late model corvette,camaro, or mustang it just becomes a modified modern sports car.:)

and the most important !
if dave gordon wants, owns or loves it... its a race car and not Pro-touring :lol: :lol:

can't add anymore to that....but no cup holders = not pro-touring. LOL

[Flash68]

and the most important !
if dave gordon wants, owns or loves it... its a race car and not Pro-touring :lol: :lol:

Hey I resemble that remark. :lol:

But just remember.. I drove said race car 1000 miles round trip. Pro Touring isn't about your impressive PT parts list, but all how you use what you got. What's not comfy for you may be perfectly comfy for me. :thumbsup:

And my real PT car is a Police Interceptor with cup holders and AC. :D

[Sieg]

Realizing that I currently don't have the resources to build what I consider a modern day Pro Touring car, I have reclassified my car to more accurately reflect what it's true status. Pro Tinkering. :)

[barrrf]

Realizing that I currently don't have the resources to build what I consider a modern day Pro Touring car, I have reclassified my car to more accurately reflect what it's true status. Pro Tinkering. :)

I just stole your line.......Pro Tinkering. Since my Pro TOuring build wont be done for several years - Im going to have to call it, my pro-tinkering build.

I was thinking about starting a build journal on this site. Some of you guys are brutal tho and Im not sure my feeble mind can handle it. Im thinking since none of the really cool suspension or engine stuff wont happen for awhile I'll just stick to keeping the journal on TC.

[ironworks]

I just stole your line.......Pro Tinkering. Since my Pro TOuring build wont be done for several years - Im going to have to call it, my pro-tinkering build.

I was thinking about starting a build journal on this site. Some of you guys are brutal tho and Im not sure my feeble mind can handle it. Im thinking since none of the really cool suspension or engine stuff wont happen for awhile I'll just stick to keeping the journal on TC.

I think that this whole definition label thing is stupid. Who really cares if you car fits into someone elses definition of "YOUR" car. Some guys think their wife is hot and I think she is fat or way to skinny. If you like it and it makes you happy drive the heck out of it.

As far as posting your build thread on here now. If your going to do it, do it for you, don't do it to inflate your ego or try to be mister cool on here. Most of the cool guys on this site are here just because of the bench racing that goes on. I have seen too many guys who care too much about what some guy with a cool screen name a high post count thinks of your project. That guy may not even own a car and who cares what he thinks, Heck he might love Fat Chicks. Build it for yourself not some jack ass that really should keep his mouth shut. Worry about the Definition later when it might actually matter.

This coming from the guy who sold his Pro-touring / Race car to buy a dirt oval race car.

[Bucketlist2012]

[QUOTE=Flash68;426537

And my real PT car is a Police Interceptor with cup holders and AC. :D[/QUOTE]

No Kidding ? For some reason I thought you were an Attorney.

And my car is modified, people can call it whatever they would like..I just know that every time I modify something, it is better than it was before..

[Sieg]

If you like it and it makes you happy drive the heck out of it.
:thumbsup:

Similar to the little guy in the motel room with the prostitute who when she saw his equipment and starting laughing out loud and stated "who are you going to satisfy with that?" He quietly replied "me."

[GregWeld]

My personal favorite -----


Pro Jackstand



:cheers:

[ccracin]

My personal favorite -----


Pro Jackstand



:cheers:

NOW, i know what we are building! :thumbsup:

Wait till you see our 3 Piece Billet Jackstands with hidden titanium fasteners, polished base, powder coated supports, and triple adjustable remote reservoir shocks!

[RECOVERY ROOM]

Maybe I don't need to point this out but I'm gonna anyway. Bret from Ridetech is in on this conversation. He is not here marketing or defending against somebodies gripe. He is here as part of this community and I don't think it is because he is trying to make a buck. I think it is because he is a car guy. There are a ton of guys that are not here for one reason or another. I don't hold that against them but I do appreciate it when commercial vendors are here to also just be car guys.:cheers:

Thank you for that,...Theres only a few of the advertisers that contribute to the forums. I don't autocross and dont see myself ever doing it just not what I'm into, I love to watch them do it. I just like well built cars and enjoy looking at them, Some of the cars being built on this site are very well thought out and good looking builds that could hold their own on a track and show field. Trust me , You would think my shop was Camaro central on any given month. Very few of them will ever see track time but there nice cars and the owners want a car that rides and drives with all the new car ride. Most of the time they have as much in suspension mods as any car on this site and when they call it a "Pro Touring car" i have to agree with them. I hate labels myself, I just like bad ass cars of all kinds. Even Camaros ..LOL ( Besides street rods and trucks rule ..:lol: got ya.)

[RECOVERY ROOM]

NOW, i know what we are building! :thumbsup:

Wait till you see our 3 Piece Billet Jackstands with hidden titanium fasteners, polished base, powder coated supports, and triple adjustable remote reservoir shocks!

My jackstands are faster than yours :rofl:

[ccracin]

My jackstands are faster than yours :rofl:

Mine handle better and you wouldn't believe the gas mileage we get! :P

[RECOVERY ROOM]

Its on now :lol:

[Spiffav8]

I just stole your line.......Pro Tinkering. Since my Pro TOuring build wont be done for several years - Im going to have to call it, my pro-tinkering build.

I was thinking about starting a build journal on this site. Some of you guys are brutal tho and Im not sure my feeble mind can handle it. Im thinking since none of the really cool suspension or engine stuff wont happen for awhile I'll just stick to keeping the journal on TC.

Bart,

Please don't shy away from posting your build thread here on LG just because a few guys have made some negative comments. Those with the brutal comments are wrong. You don't need a cool suspension or kick a$$ LS motor to have a fun car that fits into the pro touring movement. My first car was a 67 Camaro that rode on leaf springs and rebuilt sb350 with a carb. I LOVED IT and that's all that mattered..and yes, I'd say it was a PT car. No matter if your in the jack stand stage or whatever...it's still cool.

We have a great bunch of guys here for the most part. The "define Pro Touring" debate has happened a few times and obviously it's a hot button topic. What guys who have seen it before fail to realized is that we have a lot of new members here that don't know. Members who are interested in building a car that car perform to one level or another (just better than stock). Guys need to look at this subject as if it where a magazine article. Does anyone think that magazine X loves building a sb chev 350 SO much that they just can't wait to publish another 3 month spread on the subject? Nope....they do it because they are constantly getting new readers (amongst other reasons) who want/need to know.

Please list the definition of Pro-Touring so I know where to start building my car. That way when I show pictures someone wont laugh at me at say "Thats not Pro-Touring lol you havent spent $12454244 on upgrades and an LS engine".

Kthx.

But seriously, where is the line that seperates Pro-Touring from not. Looks like this car could use some seats and interior upgrades and it would "Pro Touring" but I dont know. Im new to the game.

You asked two very direct questions and sadly it has turned into a debate or people have dodged them...so it seems. Everyone will have a different view point and I respect them all. I (poorly) tried to answer your questions and apologize for my failure. I would also like to apologize for those that have posted negatively here. That's not what LG is about. We are equally lucky to have guys, that range from newbie to professional, who love cars, . The exchange of information and how to is what's really important. You being happy with YOUR car is all that matters.

Please...start your build thread.

:captain:

[Sieg]

I just stole your line.......Pro Tinkering. Since my Pro TOuring build wont be done for several years - Im going to have to call it, my pro-tinkering build.

I was thinking about starting a build journal on this site. Some of you guys are brutal tho and Im not sure my feeble mind can handle it. Im thinking since none of the really cool suspension or engine stuff wont happen for awhile I'll just stick to keeping the journal on TC.

Bart,

If the line fits use it!

Most of us amatuers on the site are tinkerers because we enjoy cars as a hobby. We all have dreams and asperations that in many cases are stiffled by obligations to family and work, and limited financial resources, but try and do the best we can with what means we have. I owned my car for 22+ years now and just in the last year have managed to upgrade it to a point that it's actually fun and safe to drive.

Don't let intimidation keep you from posting your build. This forum is all about the hobby and the build and is a great wealth of information that can add to the quality of your build and help control costs at the same time.

:lateral:

[DFRESH]

I thought Pro Touring meant lowered first gen Camaro, did something change?:rofl:

:cheers:

LOL--same here

[DFRESH]

I can't believe no one has used the phrase "I know at PT car when I see it" yet.

The evolution of this hobby is likely to see the same trend that happened in Heads Up Drag Racing--I think Blake and Brett touched on it well. Started off with a solid group of guys that gained a great amount of interest over the first couple of years. Competition got stiffer, bigger motors and better suspensions were on deck. Not long after, sponsors started to make their presence known. Then purpose built cars came along--no more 30 mile cruise to somehow validate them as a street car. Different classes--which means you have cars that are outta reach for the normal guy to build and be competitive so they have to put limits on them --cubic inch, power adders, tire sizes, etc. Once you have big name sponsors, the open wheel trailer crowd is the minortiy while toter homes and big rigs with crews become the group that the front part of the pits is reserved for. All that being said, the crowd loves the Pro Street and Outlaw cars--even though they are an easy 150k--and much more to get into. The core group of guys that started out, none of them were able to survive the cost of the evolution and remain competitive.

Not sure how our hobby/sport will follow along this path--but I have to say--if I guage it from the very first Optima event to this most recent one---we are on our way. Not saying it's bad---it is what it is.

I still say build what you like---I, for now, always want to be able to get in my car and drive it--and be able to attend track days and autocrosses. It's still about being with some of the greatest folks around and enjoying our common interests. It's easy to get caught up in all the competitive side, nicest looking, most power, etc--but i am only seeing a handful of people prosper from those things in this hobby/sport. I do, however, want to get a posi and rear disc's--call me a follower if you must. So to the guy that was worried about posting up his build thread, don't cave in because a guy has a different opinion about your suspension or what a PT car is--it will always be in flux--and the majority of people you will interact with at events and get togethers will share your same passion and desire to do more to their cars. Post up your build and join the community---you are bound to meet many great people on here. My wife still jokes with me that Todd, Dave, Rich, Rodger, Greg and lots of others have all been to our house, some of them stay with us when they are in town--and I met them all here on this site. Don't miss out on the good stuff because you have ladder bars---

D

[Ron in SoCal]

Can I stay at your house Dougie? :lol:

This has been discussed many times and I agree w your post entirely Doug. Build what you want and have FUN with it...:thumbsup:

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday"

"If you aint cheatin', you aint trying hard enough"

"Rubbin's Racin"

As soon as you put a clock on it...this was bound to happen. Payton sold his car for a more track oriented build. Dave decided the racier side is where he wants to be. Just today, Payback is for sale.

Vendor's argue the merits of their parts in 'what should I buy threads'. Even gets nasty at times.

Builders keep their set-ups a 'secret'. That cracks me up. I'm gonna start calling that guy Danica.

Car's break and cameras are banned.

Just sayin' :lateral:

I'm cool w a street car that's track capable. For now. Sure am glad for the true friends I've made here. My GF can't believe it. I can...:cheers:

EDIT: If a double stacker shows up in VIP parking, I'm gonna egg it. Unless it belongs to Charlie or Weld...:D

[Flash68]

Great post Ronnie.... :thumbsup:

Doug -- yours was so-so. :lol:

[DFRESH]

Great post Ronnie.... :thumbsup:

Doug -- yours was so-so. :lol:

I sure hope that motel next to the train tracks you stayed at last time was nice. Ron is in.

[Vegas69]

I'm not sure I agree with things going to the extreme of prostreet. I still feel the main population of the sites wants a very streetable car with pro touring roots. There is always going to be a group that wants to compete and stick out their chest. How many people are really competitive at our events now? Most of the guys just want to show up and have a good time. I like to compete but that's not my purpose.

There is SCCA, NASA, PSCA, NHRA, I hope we keep our street roots until the end. My next build will absolutely be a street car with track capabilites.

[Mkelcy]

I'm not sure I agree with things going to the extreme of prostreet. I still feel the main population of the sites wants a very streetable car with pro touring roots. There is always going to be a group that wants to compete and stick out their chest. How many people are really competitive at our events now? Most of the guys just want to show up and have a good time. I like to compete but that's not my purpose.

There is SCCA, NASA, PSCA, NHRA, I hope we keep our street roots until the end. My next build will absolutely be a street car with track capabilites.

Me, I'm pro-touring with an emphasis on touring. A little like Penny - '68 with a 21st Century subframe and a LD 3 link out back - then we go on different paths - not terribly lowered; great seats; AC; good tunes; lots of sound and heat insulation; 500 hp on tap, Viper 6 speed, 4.11 rear gears; full wipers and windshield washer - basically a car I can (and will) jump in and drive from SoCal to the coast of Maine (I love lobsters).

Frankly, I don't care what others call it; it'll be what I want it to be.

[Flash68]

I sure hope that motel next to the train tracks you stayed at last time was nice. Ron is in.

Can I at least have the dark cave that Rich slept in? :lol:

There is always going to be a group that wants to compete and stick out their chest.

Sure, but actually stop and look at most of the top guys in our niche at every event... they DON'T stick out their chests... they are mostly laid back guys and gals and let their cars and driving do the talking. :thumbsup:



My next build will absolutely be a street car with track capabilites.

That's not what you told me 2 weeks ago. :lol:

[Flash68]

Frankly, I don't care what others call it; it'll be what I want it to be.

:lateral:

[67zo6Camaro]

I can't believe no one has used the phrase "I know at PT car when I see it" yet.

The evolution of this hobby is likely to see the same trend that happened in Heads Up Drag Racing--I think Blake and Brett touched on it well. Started off with a solid group of guys that gained a great amount of interest over the first couple of years. Competition got stiffer, bigger motors and better suspensions were on deck. Not long after, sponsors started to make their presence known. Then purpose built cars came along--no more 30 mile cruise to somehow validate them as a street car. Different classes--which means you have cars that are outta reach for the normal guy to build and be competitive so they have to put limits on them --cubic inch, power adders, tire sizes, etc. Once you have big name sponsors, the open wheel trailer crowd is the minortiy while toter homes and big rigs with crews become the group that the front part of the pits is reserved for. All that being said, the crowd loves the Pro Street and Outlaw cars--even though they are an easy 150k--and much more to get into. The core group of guys that started out, none of them were able to survive the cost of the evolution and remain competitive.

Not sure how our hobby/sport will follow along this path--but I have to say--if I guage it from the very first Optima event to this most recent one---we are on our way. Not saying it's bad---it is what it is.

I still say build what you like---I, for now, always want to be able to get in my car and drive it--and be able to attend track days and autocrosses. It's still about being with some of the greatest folks around and enjoying our common interests. It's easy to get caught up in all the competitive side, nicest looking, most power, etc--but i am only seeing a handful of people prosper from those things in this hobby/sport. I do, however, want to get a posi and rear disc's--call me a follower if you must. So to the guy that was worried about posting up his build thread, don't cave in because a guy has a different opinion about your suspension or what a PT car is--it will always be in flux--and the majority of people you will interact with at events and get togethers will share your same passion and desire to do more to their cars. Post up your build and join the community---you are bound to meet many great people on here. My wife still jokes with me that Todd, Dave, Rich, Rodger, Greg and lots of others have all been to our house, some of them stay with us when they are in town--and I met them all here on this site. Don't miss out on the good stuff because you have ladder bars---

D

I will drink to that!

[bret]

You know who used to have ladder bars under what is now one of the fastest corner turning cars in the country?
Brian Finch!
I remember his first pass in that [then yellow] Camaro with the supercharged big block at our first Goodguys autocross in Nashville in 2006. He looked like a 15 year old on his first car date.
But he had fun. So much fun that he's worked on that damn car till it is now nearly untouchable.
And he's still having fun.

Have fun. Nobody cares if your car is fast, or even what it looks like. They care if you're a good guy and if you like to have fun.

[kttrucks]

Well said Bret! I dont know what label my Mustang will have, but I know what I want out of the car, and I know it'll be fun to drive and neat to look at. Whatever label it gets is fine by me. :)

KT

[barrrf]

Bart,

Please don't shy away from posting your build thread here on LG just because a few guys have made some negative comments. Those with the brutal comments are wrong. You don't need a cool suspension or kick a$$ LS motor to have a fun car that fits into the pro touring movement. My first car was a 67 Camaro that rode on leaf springs and rebuilt sb350 with a carb. I LOVED IT and that's all that mattered..and yes, I'd say it was a PT car. No matter if your in the jack stand stage or whatever...it's still cool.

We have a great bunch of guys here for the most part. The "define Pro Touring" debate has happened a few times and obviously it's a hot button topic. What guys who have seen it before fail to realized is that we have a lot of new members here that don't know. Members who are interested in building a car that car perform to one level or another (just better than stock). Guys need to look at this subject as if it where a magazine article. Does anyone think that magazine X loves building a sb chev 350 SO much that they just can't wait to publish another 3 month spread on the subject? Nope....they do it because they are constantly getting new readers (amongst other reasons) who want/need to know.



You asked two very direct questions and sadly it has turned into a debate or people have dodged them...so it seems. Everyone will have a different view point and I respect them all. I (poorly) tried to answer your questions and apologize for my failure. I would also like to apologize for those that have posted negatively here. That's not what LG is about. We are equally lucky to have guys, that range from newbie to professional, who love cars, . The exchange of information and how to is what's really important. You being happy with YOUR car is all that matters.

Please...start your build thread.

:captain:

Bart,

If the line fits use it!

Most of us amatuers on the site are tinkerers because we enjoy cars as a hobby. We all have dreams and asperations that in many cases are stiffled by obligations to family and work, and limited financial resources, but try and do the best we can with what means we have. I owned my car for 22+ years now and just in the last year have managed to upgrade it to a point that it's actually fun and safe to drive.

Don't let intimidation keep you from posting your build. This forum is all about the hobby and the build and is a great wealth of information that can add to the quality of your build and help control costs at the same time.

:lateral:

Thank guys! Ive got some pics to upload and a little more work to do before I get on a build thread. Wont be much to show at first.

[intocarss]

Have fun. Nobody cares if your car is fast, or even what it looks like. They care if you're a good guy and if you like to have fun. Quoted for the truth!! :thumbsup:

We're all here sharing the same addiction and this site is our rehab

[89 RS]

Have fun. Nobody cares if your car is fast, or even what it looks like. They care if you're a good guy and if you like to have fun.

:thumbsup:

[chr2002ca]

I can't believe no one has used the phrase "I know at PT car when I see it" yet.

The evolution of this hobby is likely to see the same trend that happened in Heads Up Drag Racing--I think Blake and Brett touched on it well. Started off with a solid group of guys that gained a great amount of interest over the first couple of years. Competition got stiffer, bigger motors and better suspensions were on deck. Not long after, sponsors started to make their presence known. Then purpose built cars came along--no more 30 mile cruise to somehow validate them as a street car. Different classes--which means you have cars that are outta reach for the normal guy to build and be competitive so they have to put limits on them --cubic inch, power adders, tire sizes, etc. Once you have big name sponsors, the open wheel trailer crowd is the minortiy while toter homes and big rigs with crews become the group that the front part of the pits is reserved for. All that being said, the crowd loves the Pro Street and Outlaw cars--even though they are an easy 150k--and much more to get into. The core group of guys that started out, none of them were able to survive the cost of the evolution and remain competitive.

Not sure how our hobby/sport will follow along this path--but I have to say--if I guage it from the very first Optima event to this most recent one---we are on our way. Not saying it's bad---it is what it is.

I still say build what you like---I, for now, always want to be able to get in my car and drive it--and be able to attend track days and autocrosses. It's still about being with some of the greatest folks around and enjoying our common interests. It's easy to get caught up in all the competitive side, nicest looking, most power, etc--but i am only seeing a handful of people prosper from those things in this hobby/sport. I do, however, want to get a posi and rear disc's--call me a follower if you must. So to the guy that was worried about posting up his build thread, don't cave in because a guy has a different opinion about your suspension or what a PT car is--it will always be in flux--and the majority of people you will interact with at events and get togethers will share your same passion and desire to do more to their cars. Post up your build and join the community---you are bound to meet many great people on here. My wife still jokes with me that Todd, Dave, Rich, Rodger, Greg and lots of others have all been to our house, some of them stay with us when they are in town--and I met them all here on this site. Don't miss out on the good stuff because you have ladder bars---

D

That's dead on the money Doug. I could not agree more. :thumbsup:

In the title of the thread, it says "throwing on some tubs". That must be one accurate friggin' throw because last time I looked, putting on tubs is not a simple process. I investigated everything I'd have to cut up and modify to put some on and bailed on that idea. A $300 part with $3000 worth of labor. Then there's all the new rear suspension and gas tank parts to purchase to make use out of them. Not a simple modification. Whoever has done it has earned some pro-touring praise in my book.

[chr2002ca]

Quoted for the truth!! :thumbsup:

We're all here sharing the same addiction and this site is our rehab

Actually, some of us may need rehab because of this site. :lol:

[geberhard]

Reminds me of the Pro Street days in the 80's. Those cars were built to emulate a Pro Stock car...with the most visible and tangible change being a set of 15x33 Mickey Thompson tires. Hell, Rick Dobbertin [after building 2 of the most elaborate and hi profile Pro Street cars in the world, built a front wheel drive Grand Am with a big set of Mickeys under the back [leaving it front wheel drive with no other changes], and made several magazine articles!

Our cars are built to emulate a road race car...with the most visible and tangible change being a set of 17-18" wheels. Lots of people just want that "look" and cannot afford/don't want to make further investment in their cars.

Having experienced [and participated in] both movements...the "pro touring" movement is much more sensible [so far]. Our current trend of car building offers much less compromise than the old Pro Street cars. Bigger tires, bigger brakes, bigger suspensions, bigger engines all improve the overall driving experience with [usually] no compromise.

I'm good with all of it. Thank goodness for individualism and the ability to express such!

Bret hit the nail in the head. I agree and there are varying degrees and however the cars are called now or years from now, they are still muscle cars in my book. Fads come and go, what was cool in the 70's differed a lot from what was cool in the 80's and then 90's and today.

It i sa constant evolution, for car freaks, aficionados, gearheads or whatever we call ourselves, there is only one cure and it is the constant evolution. Modifying cars is nothing new and probably will never stop, even when we hit (if ever) flying cars ;)

I speak with several friends that have spent several thousand of dollars (and still ae)building cars and going through phases, and funny enough some that are still mid "pro street" mid builds on their garages (some had breaks, kids, life changing stuff and projects sat).

Funny thing to ponder: High End\high dollar Pro-touring guys, will say, hey your car is not a pro-touring build. A classic car guy will say that I did a sin but chopping an original car into a freak of nature with wheels bigger than original 14 or 15" Yiikesss...

I can care less for what someone calls my car. Build by your own standards, that is what makes each project special. Think outside the box (so outside you can not even see the box anymore :) Do not follow norms or standards, make it fun, try something new. Someone can say XX percent of cars here are cookie cutters but for us who enjoy the builds and make subtle and a lot of times not so subtle modifications we know how different they are. In the end call it whatever you want, enjoy the build and enjoy the ride. You only live once, if you live good, once is enough :)

[irishlsxer]

I just stole your line.......Pro Tinkering. Since my Pro TOuring build wont be done for several years - Im going to have to call it, my pro-tinkering build.

I was thinking about starting a build journal on this site. Some of you guys are brutal tho and Im not sure my feeble mind can handle it. Im thinking since none of the really cool suspension or engine stuff wont happen for awhile I'll just stick to keeping the journal on TC.

what about 'am tourers' instead of pro tourers?:rofl:

[sokoloka]

I'm cool w a street car that's track capable. For now. Sure am glad for the true friends I've made here. My GF can't believe it. I can...:cheers:
I'm going to have to meet up with some of you guys when I move back to Carlsbad mid-September. Could just be my group of friends but the past 4 years I've been there were tough to find people with thoroughly similar interests and manias.

Look forward to moving back and getting my car done the most!

[byndbad914]

For me, Big Red was the first PT car because I would seriously drive that car on the street daily and it was the first I can recall seeing a brick fly through the air that well. That one car changed how I viewed performance muscle cars to this day. My DD all through my 20s was essentially a race car with two seats and a dash that I managed to put plates on and dealt with the hassling from the local PD regarding exhaust noise. Of course, if they heard it, I probably was getting off easy if they were talking about the noise and not what I was doing at the time to make it :lol:

PT is better defined by Mark's series of Camaros, but seriously, if you take a 60s-70s car and put some fat tires all around and lower it down a little to make it look like an old Trans Am racer and at least appear like it would handle better, you are Pro Touring as far as I am concerned. Money shouldn't matter; should be like gifts, the thought is what should count.

Skinny front tires and fat rears = Pro Street
Fat tires all around = Pro Touring

The 66 Nova SS chassis I bought a couple weeks ago I intend to build starting later this year will have 16" wheels for the track - they will be 11.5"/13" wide, but they may be too small in diameter to be PT by many standards :unibrow:

All the other stuff you can bolt/beat/weld on is just a measure of wallet, not intent or love for one type or the other. Most, if not all of us on this forum live in the USA or other "free" countries where we have near complete freedom of expression and ability to make and spend money easily - we've already won the galactic lottery - what we do with that freedom of expression is just how we are spending our winnings if you will. I consider getting to debate something as frivolous as this v. where I am getting my next meal is pretty fortunate... so I don't care about labels all that much.

Now, when N.O.S. (en oh ess) became NAWS - that is a debate worth fighting :faint: :lol:

[Z10ROD]

naws LOL still cracks me up