Need help picking a V10 Viper engine for my project

[demon34071]

I am new here but after talking to several other folks on other boards (FABO, MOPARTS, VIPER ALLEY) they recommended me posting my question here as well. Hopefully I can get a strait answer once and for all, but I'm sure I'll get beat up some here as I've been beat up elsewhere.

My project -- I am putting a V10 Viper engine into a 71 Dodge Demon pro touring car. The project is already well underway and I am at the point in the body mods that I need to get my motor bought for the project:

Here is the plan ---

Viper V10 engine -- GEN 3 (Visually I like the intake and covers better) and I can't afford a GEN 4

Engine will be mated to a new TCI Six-Speed Automatic transmission -- YES an Automatic -- its built off of a GM 4L80 case, but it also comes with both auto and manual features and has Over Drive.

Engine and Trans will be mated via TCI's adapter plate for this trans case (4L80) to a viper engine. So bolting it up is not an issue. Neither is controlling it as this trans is a 100% stand alone unit from the engine.

Questions:
Which year engines do not have the rear flywheel crank trigger location?

Would it really matter if crank trigger was on the flywheel or not?

Do I really need to start with a V10 Ram engine that had an automatic in it or can I use any GEN 3 engine?

I'm sure the answers to these questions will launch a series of other questions. But these are biggest stumbling parts me and my team of builders have run into so far.

I already know that the pan on anything other than a truck version will not work with my clearance issues and will need to be changed to the truck style, and then cut down for road clearance. Among a whole slew of other this as well. But I can't begin to worry about those items until I get the crank trigger location question answered.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Derek

Moparts - Demon71
FABO - demon34071
Viper Alley - demon34071
Lateral-G - demon34071

[64pontiac]

I will probably be your most help right now, as we are doing the same thing for a customer currently, including using the same TCI 6x. Sorry if you wanted to be the first :_paranoid !

Most people that make parts for doing the swaps will tell you that gen 3 is the best, as the gen 4 will not only cost you more, but you are going to have to get in bed with someone that is extremely good at tuning those cars to even have a chance of running it standalone.

The Gen 3 does NOT work with TCI's adapter plate. Trust me.

You will need to talk to Coan Racing, they are the ones that make an adapter with a crank trigger.

As far as harness, talk to Hotwire Auto.

Truck or Viper, does not matter as far as putting an auto behind it, but you may end up trying to find a truck pan to modify depending on what you are doing for a front suspension crossmember.

Someone else may want to chime in, but the Gen 2 may be alot easier to do?

[demon34071]

64 pontiac

As for being the first, I figured I definitely was not going to be the first to swap a Viper engine with the TCI 6 speed into another car... but as for dumping one into a Dodge Demon maybe... but who knows. LOL..

I have heard that Gen 2's are easier to work with, but then I would be into an intake swap since I want the look of the Gen 3. So I figured I would start with a Gen 3 since it gives me the look I am going for and then work around everything from there.

Good to know that the TCI adapter does not work prior to spending the $1300 they want for you -- Thank you for the heads up.

I will have to reach out to both Coan Racing and Hotwire Auto...

Where is your shop located? I'm always looking for folks who have done what I want to do to talk to and work with on my project.

Thanks
Derek

[64pontiac]

We are a long way away in Manitoba Canada.......

I can help you out with some pics if you need. The hotwire harness is really nice, we use them alot for motor swap harnesses. They still require the crank sensor for the 04/05 ecu.

The Coan racing setup is more money than tci, but needed. It is about an 8 week wait though. The TCI setup, although they don't tell you, is designed for a gen 4.

They didnt know much about their adapter, the sales guys didnt even know they had it. I have a cad drawing of it, and the starter area is different too

[WSSix]

I can't even begin to help you. All I can say is no one here will even begin to beat you up about the choices you make for your car. So post pictures and hang around more. This sounds like a pretty wicked project.

You may also find project Snakebite fun to look at while you're here.

[wellis77]

I know I've mentioned it before, but the Gen 3 intake swap is super easy and and only a few hundred bucks, if that. I'll be doing a Gen 4 swap for the entire upper half... BAM, 600 HP.

[SuperB70]

We need pics.

To your questions:

Crank trigger is in the middle of the block from '05 and newer.

You dont need/want a Ram engine- if you mean iron 8.0.
SRT-10 8.3 is the same as Viper other than its an automatic trans. Different headers, oilpan and no flywheel.
Gen 3 is with wastespark coils on liftervalley when Gen 4 has 10 LS-style coils on the valve covers.

Try to buy engine with firing harness so you can run with Mopars off road race ecu box(if talking about gen 3 & 4)

Gen 3 (8.3) has a oiling problem that causes number 3 & 7 (if I remember numbers correct) rod bearings failure.
Gen 4 (8.4) has up datet swinging pick up.
Gen 2 (8.0) has forged rods so it can handle boost if added later date.

64Pontiac what body are you putting it in?
Wellis77 I have read that head and intake chance would cost more than couple hundred. Parts, gaskets, bolts and wiring chances.. You got better information?

[64pontiac]

I will tell you what its going in closer to its unveil this fall.......:unibrow: But its not what you think!

[demon34071]

We are a long way away in Manitoba Canada.......

I can help you out with some pics if you need. The hotwire harness is really nice, we use them alot for motor swap harnesses. They still require the crank sensor for the 04/05 ecu.

The Coan racing setup is more money than tci, but needed. It is about an 8 week wait though. The TCI setup, although they don't tell you, is designed for a gen 4.

They didnt know much about their adapter, the sales guys didnt even know they had it. I have a cad drawing of it, and the starter area is different too

Yes Manitoba is a long way away... I checked out your website. You guys do great work!

Your are right about TCI not knowing much about their adapter. When I called the salesman thought I was making stuff up. right up till he punched in the part# I gave him and he said "well look at that, we do make it"

At this point the long lead times are just part of the build.

[demon34071]

I know I've mentioned it before, but the Gen 3 intake swap is super easy and and only a few hundred bucks, if that. I'll be doing a Gen 4 swap for the entire upper half... BAM, 600 HP.

Will... we've talked a lot on FABO regarding your build and mine. I have considered the GEN 2 like you have stuffed in your Dart when you were back in the states last time, but I'm taking the earlier route (for me at least) and just starting with the GEN 3 and being happy with 500 HP.... Well at least till you start posting more pictures and my brain on beer gets away from me.

I love reading the boards but I seen way to many new ideas that my brain won't let go of. LOL

[demon34071]

We need pics.

To your questions:

Crank trigger is in the middle of the block from '05 and newer.

You dont need/want a Ram engine- if you mean iron 8.0.
SRT-10 8.3 is the same as Viper other than its an automatic trans. Different headers, oilpan and no flywheel.
Gen 3 is with wastespark coils on liftervalley when Gen 4 has 10 LS-style coils on the valve covers.

Try to buy engine with firing harness so you can run with Mopars off road race ecu box(if talking about gen 3 & 4)

Gen 3 (8.3) has a oiling problem that causes number 3 & 7 (if I remember numbers correct) rod bearings failure.
Gen 4 (8.4) has up datet swinging pick up.
Gen 2 (8.0) has forged rods so it can handle boost if added later date.

64Pontiac what body are you putting it in?
Wellis77 I have read that head and intake chance would cost more than couple hundred. Parts, gaskets, bolts and wiring chances.. You got better information?


Thanks for the information... The engines I am looking at are the following:

05 - V10 - Ram - Auto trans -- Comes with accessories, harness, computer
06 - V10 - Viper - Manual trans -- Comes with accessories, harness, computer
05 - V10 - Viper - No trans -- Comes with accessories, harness, computer

Sounds like I should stay away from anything 04 or older since the have the rear crank trigger that seams to be my concern that keeps popping up. Maybe a call to Coan Racing this week to see if it matters on their adapter or not.

[demon34071]

nothing good to post pics about right now... Just basic panel replacement, frame rail connectors, new front lower rad support, new floor pans, new trunk floor, triangulated rear end..... Here is the final design I am working towards... Next phase will include installing the Alterkation front end which has been sitting in my living room for a couple months now. New 1/4 panels, door handle mods, new rear wheels will be bought... I already have the tires.. Then cut a huge hole in the cowl for the GEN 3 to sit in there and start a whole part of the build of how to make it work..

[64pontiac]

It does matter for Coan Racing, the version with the crank trigger on the flywheel is more money and different than the non crank trigger version

[Matt@BOS]

I know it is off topic, but if you're choosing the TCI 6 speed auto without personal experience with it, you might want to reconsider. Actually I would stay away from TCI in general...

Matt

[wellis77]

Wellis77 I have read that head and intake chance would cost more than couple hundred. Parts, gaskets, bolts and wiring chances.. You got better information?

Doing just a Gen 3 intake swap is a few hundred (ish), the Gen 4 upper half is $$$, but I'm all in.

[wellis77]

Will... we've talked a lot on FABO regarding your build and mine. I have considered the GEN 2 like you have stuffed in your Dart when you were back in the states last time, but I'm taking the earlier route (for me at least) and just starting with the GEN 3 and being happy with 500 HP.... Well at least till you start posting more pictures and my brain on beer gets away from me.

I love reading the boards but I seen way to many new ideas that my brain won't let go of. LOL

I hear you man, I need to stay off the Viper boards, is my problem.

[demon34071]

I know it is off topic, but if you're choosing the TCI 6 speed auto without personal experience with it, you might want to reconsider. Actually I would stay away from TCI in general...

Matt

Yes it is off topic, but I appreciate your opinion, but that's my plan and I'm sticking to it....

The only way you get your own personal experience with something is to disregard everyone else's opinions, jump in, balls to the wall and try it.... So that's what I am doing... If I listened to everyones good, bad, or ugly opinion of every brand I plan to use then I would never even get to start my project because I would be second guessing the whole thing.....

Now unless anyone out there wants to sponsor the build, then I will put in what ever trans or parts you want me too... PM me for my address to send me CASH or the FREE parts... LOL :D

[demon34071]

I hear you man, I need to stay off the Viper boards, is my problem.

The viper boards aren't too bad for me, but I could see that in your case. Your dart is more viper than dart, so yeah I can see the addiction.

For me that darn FABO members projects kills me... Nothing like a few beers, and 50+ pages of reading and getting new ideas... I need to spend less time on the boards looking for new ideas and more time wrenching on my own! :lol:

[demon34071]

It does matter for Coan Racing, the version with the crank trigger on the flywheel is more money and different than the non crank trigger version

Well I can put the call to Coan Racing on hold then till I secure my engine....

So in summation would we all agree that based on my wanting a Gen 3 (sorry Will, but gen 2 is out, LOL) engine to start with. I should be looking at the 2005 or newer engines? Since the crank trigger is on the side on the engine and this will allow for a cheaper adapter.

Could be either the Viper V10 or the Ram V10 -- With preference leaning toward the Viper instead of the Ram.

Adapter will have come from Coan Racing
Harness will be discussed with Hotwire Auto to see options once I get to that point.

[SuperB70]

Nice looking A-body.

Call Ohio pick-a-part, Gus has many engines with all bells and whistles.

Oiling problem is solve with little work with crank.

Have you been studying the engine? Its so lite that dont have to stuff it under dash. Only that its so long...

About TCI, they converters suck big time. I did use a 4L60E with T-Com at my old blown sbm '70 Swinger.

I liked a lot ( builded paddle shift of my own) but even with Super Street Fighter stuff inside it couldnt handle my blown 600hp(ish) small block. We rebuild it 3 times in period of 2 summer. It didnt like rolling burn out with going up all the gears. Broke 2/4 sunshell. Now they have steel version for sale. Converter was rebuilded twice also, lock up broke...

[SuperB70]

I hear you man, I need to stay off the Viper boards, is my problem.

Me too... :thumbsup: whent there and asked some questions, made couple statements.

Was asked nicely to f...k off...:rofl:

About Gen 3/4 engines, they are made by Ilmor. Company that makes F1 and other racing engines.

Viper engine is a boat engine in real life... How many of you did know that?

[demon34071]

Nice looking A-body.

Call Ohio pick-a-part, Gus has many engines with all bells and whistles.

Oiling problem is solve with little work with crank.

Have you been studying the engine? Its so lite that dont have to stuff it under dash. Only that its so long...

About TCI, they converters suck big time. I did use a 4L60E with T-Com at my old blown sbm '70 Swinger.

I liked a lot ( builded paddle shift of my own) but even with Super Street Fighter stuff inside it couldnt handle my blown 600hp(ish) small block. We rebuild it 3 times in period of 2 summer. It didnt like rolling burn out with going up all the gears. Broke 2/4 sunshell. Now they have steel version for sale. Converter was rebuilded twice also, lock up broke...

Thanks!

I read more on these engines trying to figure out plan of attack than I did for some of my classes as a kid. I've been measuring and measuring and researching this project for 2 years and the only debate is how far back it really needs to sit. The further back you go the better weight ratio, but you lose seating room. Farther forward you have a nose heavy car, but with the weight of this versus a 340, 440, or big hemi, all but the 340 is nose heavy and springs can compensate. So there is be some figuring for my comfort at that point.

Ohio-pick a part is mostly where I will ultimately get my engine since I'm in Pittsburgh and I can pick it up and be home in less than 6 hrs round trip.

[Matt@BOS]

Yes it is off topic, but I appreciate your opinion, but that's my plan and I'm sticking to it....

The only way you get your own personal experience with something is to disregard everyone else's opinions, jump in, balls to the wall and try it.... So that's what I am doing... If I listened to everyones good, bad, or ugly opinion of every brand I plan to use then I would never even get to start my project because I would be second guessing the whole thing.....

Now unless anyone out there wants to sponsor the build, then I will put in what ever trans or parts you want me too... PM me for my address to send me CASH or the FREE parts... LOL :D

Totally understand. I've tried out many parts myself, and have replaced a fair amount of them. I recognize that is just part of hot rodding. The car I rode in had a hard time choosing gears, and would upshift, and downshift at odd times, setting it up was a pain. Now, that is all personal opinion, and also involves installation variables, etc. However, it is not my opinion that we just had a brand new TCI transmission with zero miles come into Best of Show, only to have to have some of its internals replaced because TCI used old unrefurbished ones that were ready to fall apart. Just wanted you to know what you could potentially be getting into, that's all :thumbsup:

Matt

[demon34071]

Totally understand. I've tried out many parts myself, and have replaced a fair amount of them. I recognize that is just part of hot rodding. The car I rode in had a hard time choosing gears, and would upshift, and downshift at odd times, setting it up was a pain. Now, that is all personal opinion, and also involves installation variables, etc. However, it is not my opinion that we just had a brand new TCI transmission with zero miles come into Best of Show, only to have to have some of its internals replaced because TCI used old unrefurbished ones that were ready to fall apart. Just wanted you to know what you could potentially be getting into, that's all :thumbsup:

Matt

Thanks for the input on your experience.... still using it. :D LOL... Back to focusing on new mod ideas for my build.

[demon34071]

New question ---

Now that I have the engine narrowed down to a 05 or newer Gen 3. What dash gauges will be needed?

I have a custom dash for my 71 Demon with 6 holes for gauges: Where is what I was planning:

Fuel
Voltmeter
Oil pressure
Water temp
Tac
Speedo

Is this all that I will need for basic gauges for this engine. From what I can see that is basically what was in 2005 Vipers with the exception I think they have a oil temp gauge as well.

[strtcar]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=36698

[Protour_Pinto]

Viper engine is a boat engine in real life... How many of you did know that?

My Dad just put two Viper engines in an Air Boat :D

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/BanditMan1200/Stuff/viprairboat1.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/BanditMan1200/Stuff/viprairboat2.jpg

[SuperB70]

Thats way too cool.:thumbsup: