SMOTY / OUSCI Has this ever happened??

[garickman]

With all the prestige that goes with building a Street Machine of the Year and all the prestige that goes with being invited to the Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational, I was wondering if there has ever been a car who has won both the SMOTY and the OUSCI?

And to all the builders out there, would you rather build a top 5 contender for the Street Machine of the Year or a great 8 contender for the Riddler?

[ironworks]

With all the prestige that goes with building a Street Machine of the Year and all the prestige that goes with being invited to the Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational, I was wondering if there has ever been a car who has won both the SMOTY and the OUSCI?

And to all the builders out there, would you rather build a top 5 contender for the Street Machine of the Year or a great 8 contender for the Riddler?

It will never happen that a Street Machine of the Year winner will ever win The Optima Shootout. They would be too heavy, They would be so nice that no one would ever push them that hard and they are built for Form over Function for the most part.

I would like to build both. To me they are no where near the same. They both present opposite challenges to win the award. Nobody ever remembers the contenders.

[Vegas69]

Yep, never happen in a million years.

[garickman]

It will never happen that a Street Machine of the Year winner will ever win The Optima Shootout. They would be too heavy, They would be so nice that no one would ever push them that hard and they are built for Form over Function for the most part.

I would like to build both. To me they are no where near the same. They both present opposite challenges to win the award. Nobody ever remembers the contenders.

Considering the past years winners of the SMOTY, do you think it will always be an over the top car that wins? Do you think it will ever come back to a well built, well designed car like Steilow's red Devil or some of the DSE builds, or has the bar already been set too high with all the custom fab work and out of control check books?

[EBMC]

I disagree, I think it could happen.With the bar being raised higher and higher each year Its just a matter of time before somebody with very deep pockets is able to finance a car utilizing alot of composites and titanium therefore bringing the car to a competitive weight for OUSCI. It will take a ton of money and an owner thats not afraid to push it to the limit (including their checkbook!)

[ALLSPEED01]

Not sure if it could ever happen, because the two are on different ends of the build spectrum. It sure would be fun to try!:thumbsup:

[garickman]

It will take a ton of money and an owner thats not afraid to push it to the limit (including their checkbook!)

I'm sure there are alot of builders out there who would love to meet this person.:drool:

[GrabberGT]

I disagree, I think it could happen.With the bar being raised higher and higher each year Its just a matter of time before somebody with very deep pockets is able to finance a car utilizing alot of composites and titanium therefore bringing the car to a competitive weight for OUSCI. It will take a ton of money and an owner thats not afraid to push it to the limit (including their checkbook!)

I like the way you think...

My post from the other site:

I could see it happening. Why not have a race inspired SMOTY that can perform as well? What are the criteria for a SMOTY car that would take it out of competition at OUSCI? Perhaps a lot of it is the driver. I see no real reason the RS Vette could not have been a contender in the same fashion Bruce's Cobra was. Just needed a little more power, tuning, and a skilled hand behind the wheel willing to push it. Judging by other winners of SMOTY, ground effects and wild body mods are favorable for SMOTY. Those same mods can be made to be a benefit for OUSCI. They just need to be applied to the right car in the right way. We've had the discussion on what it would take to beet the modern modern Vette's (Danny Pop) out there. This is it. Free reign to reengineer a musclecar to be competitive. Now who do we know who is an engineer by day, amateur race car driver by night, and has deep enough pockets to make this happen?

[Vegas69]

Couple things come to mind.

I have trouble seeing a car that pushes all the judges hot buttons capable of being competitive in the modern OUSCI.

Secondly, the car is going to need EXTENSIVE testing and tweaking on the race track to have any chance. Then, the owner or builder is going to need to be an extreme hot shoe. Then you have to outgun a Z06. Not easy... It all sounds great until you build the street machine of the year and get it out on the track and start beating it up. Will the owner/builder really push it to the limit that it will take to win?

Nothing is impossible.....just very unlikely.

[214Chevy]

With respect to the craft that we so much adore and relentlessly pursue and spend our life savings on, I won't say never. With more and more cars becoming lighter with carbon fiber, fiberglass, etc, weight will become less more of an issue. Take the 2nd gen Camaro ProfeSSor for instance. It wasn't considered a SMOTY, but look at all the track inspired mods it had done to it. And, it still looked beautiful enough to be right there with the best of them. So, I can see our hobby leaning towards it in the future. 20 years ago, nobody saw restoring our cars to the sum of $400k-$500k either. So, 20 years from now it's scary to see what it will be like. Guys are already working on AWD classics. So, it's coming.

[MarkM66]

It will never happen that a Street Machine of the Year winner will ever win The Optima Shootout. They would be too heavy, They would be so nice that no one would ever push them that hard and they are built for Form over Function for the most part.

Exactly.

They say never say never, but I'll make an exception. :)

[hifi875]

$400-500k was quite a few years ago wasn't it?? The $$$ for a SMOY is alot more.

[Matt@BOS]

$400-500k was quite a few years ago wasn't it?? The $$$ for a SMOY is alot more.

Yeah, it seems like there is an ever growing number of nice cars in between 600-700k right now, and those don't even stand out compared to the really wild cars!

Matt

[Flash68]

It's sure fun to think it could, but yeah.. not happenin. For the million reasons listed above and a million others.

The Optima win is a pretty big deal to a lot of people, but is it really worth hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars to someone? That is one interesting person with a lot of money if it happens... I'd bet they'd be after a different prize if the checkbook was that large.

[ironworks]

I disagree, I think it could happen.With the bar being raised higher and higher each year Its just a matter of time before somebody with very deep pockets is able to finance a car utilizing alot of composites and titanium therefore bringing the car to a competitive weight for OUSCI. It will take a ton of money and an owner thats not afraid to push it to the limit (including their checkbook!)

Agreed But at some point somebody is going to say. Why don't we just go race real "RACE CARS"?

You could be 2 cars to win the SMOTY award and 2 More cars to Win Optima for probably less cost then one car to win both awards.

Are 2 trophies and internet bragging rights really worth that much investment? Not sure I would want to meet the guy with that ego.

[Stuart Adams]

With Bill getting all the other racing events going and with DSE adding a few also, the Optima is not the one and only large track event anymore. Its still a great event but not the superbowl as before. So I could see a SMOTY and a Street Car Series race be the same winner at some point. Your odds are better because of more similiar events.

[carbuff]

Secondly, the car is going to need EXTENSIVE testing and tweaking on the race track to have any chance. Then, the owner or builder is going to need to be an extreme hot shoe. Then you have to outgun a Z06. Not easy... It all sounds great until you build the street machine of the year and get it out on the track and start beating it up. Will the owner/builder really push it to the limit that it will take to win?

Seems like BB fits a lot of that description. It certainly has some unique features. Perhaps not quite enough for SMOTY, but who knows... :)

Come on Karl, you could do it!!!

[wiedemab]

Just a stupid thought - -I have lots of those......

Financially, it may be more cost effective for previously mentioned uber-rich ego-maniac to build two cars, one to win the SMOY and one to win the Optima vs. one car to do both....Still get both trophies............

The only other thing that could shift the "one car" probability more toward the possible end of the spectrum is if the style trend for SMOY seriously shifts toward more race inspired versus the current, but it would have to shift drastically.....ie: no interior is now the cool thing to do. OK, I just talked myself back into the "not possible" category.

You hear that you rich egotistical bastard? I said you can't do it - said in my most antagonistic tone.....:yes:

Just in case someone was on the fence and needed someone to call them out.:unibrow:

Thats enough gibberish out of me.......

[96z28ss]

With Bill getting all the other racing events going and with DSE adding a few also, the Optima is not the one and only large track event anymore. Its still a great event but not the superbowl as before. So I could see a SMOTY and a Street Car Series race be the same winner at some point. Your odds are better because of more similiar events.

Yes there are a few events and new ones being added. However I disagree, the OPTIMA Challenge is the Super bowl or the Daytona 500 for this hobby or sport.

[ccracin]

This all seems to point back to the old debate of street car vs. race car vs. show car.

One would like to believe that a STREET machine of the year winner could also win the Ultimate STREET car challenge. But it seems the way both events are judged, decided, etc. lean opposite ways.

In the SMOTY competition you have to have a $750,000 show car and big enough OO's to run it on a short autocross for which time isn't the deciding factor. To me SMOTY is turning into what happened at indoor ISCA shows. As soon as the masses feel like they have lost touch with the possibility of attaining a goal, they will move on to something else. This is one of the reasons street rodding is not as popular as it was. I think this has helped rat rods become more popular too.

For the OUSCI competition you have to have a 6 figure race car that is detailed enough to not look like a race car. Stielow won in a street car in my opinion. (Altough still 6 figures) Danny's car was a street car per say but venturing a little more toward race car. I predict you will see many more purpose built race cars at OUSCI unless the organizers pull it back a bit.

For example, I don't know how many of you have seen Rob from No Limits new truck Hell Boy. I love it, it is bad a$$, but it is a tube chassied race car with truck sheet metal on it. Sure, you can register it and drive it on the street. But.....
(No Offense Rob, I love the truck and am jealous!)

In the end, when someone can win and someone can loose as related to cars, MONEY wins! Someone will always spend what it takes to win!

Let the stoning begin! :willy: :cheers:

[bret]

Hell, we'll build twin cars...one optimized for SMOTY competition and its evil twin to run Optima!

Don't laugh...its been done in other venues.

Anyone remember Stan Shaw about 25 years ago with a red 57 Chevy? Great guy...great cars. The "street" car was a steel 57 with a blown, intercooled, EFI big cube Chevy engine. [extremely radical for its time]The "race" car was a tube framed fiberglass body car that ran hard on alcohol...in the sixes if I remember right.

I'm with Rodger...at some point [and were not far off] it make infinitely more sense to build a real race car for racing, and a comfy street car for the street. It all depends on your definition of both. And your wallet. And your willingness to chase...whatever it is were all chasing.

[Stuart Adams]

Yes there are a few events and new ones being added. However I disagree, the OPTIMA Challenge is the Super bowl or the Daytona 500 for this hobby or sport.

The superbowl is crowning a champion for the whole year, Daytona is a BIG event at the beginning and means very little to who is the best for the year. Optima used to be it and only it, besides auto X at GG events. Not anymore. 2 of the 3 events at optima are almost identical to the other races.

[214Chevy]

That's it!! I've heard all I can take. I'm going to enter my car into them both next year and win them both. Then I'll say, "I thought y'all said it'll never happen. Look what I've accomplished in one year later.!" :P :P (awakens from my dream and wipes the slobber from my mouth) :lol: :lol:

[ironworks]

This all seems to point back to the old debate of street car vs. race car vs. show car.

One would like to believe that a STREET machine of the year winner could also win the Ultimate STREET car challenge. But it seems the way both events are judged, decided, etc. lean opposite ways.

In the SMOTY competition you have to have a $750,000 show car and big enough OO's to run it on a short autocross for which time isn't the deciding factor. To me SMOTY is turning into what happened at indoor ISCA shows. As soon as the masses feel like they have lost touch with the possibility of attaining a goal, they will move on to something else. This is one of the reasons street rodding is not as popular as it was. I think this has helped rat rods become more popular too.

For the OUSCI competition you have to have a 6 figure race car that is detailed enough to not look like a race car. Stielow won in a street car in my opinion. (Altough still 6 figures) Danny's car was a street car per say but venturing a little more toward race car. I predict you will see many more purpose built race cars at OUSCI unless the organizers pull it back a bit.

For example, I don't know how many of you have seen Rob from No Limits new truck Hell Boy. I love it, it is bad a$$, but it is a tube chassied race car with truck sheet metal on it. Sure, you can register it and drive it on the street. But.....
(No Offense Rob, I love the truck and am jealous!)

In the end, when someone can win and someone can loose as related to cars, MONEY wins! Someone will always spend what it takes to win!

Let the stoning begin! :willy: :cheers:

But Rob's truck can only with Truck of the year. It's not a car. :D :D :D

[96z28ss]

The superbowl is crowning a champion for the whole year, Daytona is a BIG event at the beginning and means very little to who is the best for the year. Optima used to be it and only it, besides auto X at GG events. Not anymore. 2 of the 3 events at optima are almost identical to the other races.

okay so you race all year at other events, which have auto X, road course, and braking, held across the country to QUALIFY for the Optima event, in Vegas, in November. They crown a winner of the entire event. Yet you don't consider it the superbowl of our hobby?
So what event then is greater than the OUSCI? Maybe some of the guys here that competed in the event can comment, but I'm pretty sure they consider it the Championship title.

[73CPCAMARO]

Can it happen? Yes

Will hit happen? Probably not.

If a "hot shoe" wins the lottery or is financed, a winner for both could be built. It would take way over $500k to do, but there are plenty of talented builders out there that could pull this off. None of them have put the package together yet. The "Pro-touring" movement is rapidly advancing. It is just a matter of time before a top builder gets the knowledge needed to build a fast car that looks good enough to win SMOTY. Blu Balz is close on both fronts, but not there yet. If someone where to give me $500k, I could give it a shot! :D

[SLO_Z28]

So what event then is greater than the OUSCI? Maybe some of the guys here that competed in the event can comment, but I'm pretty sure they consider it the Championship title.

SCCA SOLO National Championships.
n6yNejk7MwI

Build a car you wouldn't be out of place entering SMOTY and you could dethrone Mike Maier's SCCA CP Mustang at nationals, then consider yourself a champion.

[ccracin]

But Rob's truck can only with Truck of the year. It's not a car. :D :D :D

No bed! :_paranoid

[Stuart Adams]

okay so you race all year at other events, which have auto X, road course, and braking, held across the country to QUALIFY for the Optima event, in Vegas, in November. They crown a winner of the entire event. Yet you don't consider it the superbowl of our hobby?
So what event then is greater than the OUSCI? Maybe some of the guys here that competed in the event can comment, but I'm pretty sure they consider it the Championship title.

I agree, in the past that is all true. But with many more like events popping up, guys can have fun with their cars on road course events and not have to travel to Las Vegas. SEMA makes it easy to pull off, because alot of cars are already there. With all the previous politics involved with style points, cobra car and street cars vs race cars, these other events may erode its superbowl feel. Its about the fun and since they are not handing out paychecks at optima some guys may stay around home and race close by because its the same fun with potential less drama. I just see equally challenging events popping up, especially in the future. That is just competitive business, if their was only 3 nascar races a year each one would be huge.
So in reference to the question a SMOTY car may at some point compete with the top cars at one of the optima like events during the year, that's all I meant. That would be cool.
The optima event is great and I really enjoy watching it. Kudos to Bill and others for organizing other great events so more across the entire country can compete. Didn't mean to de rail the topic. Its all good.

[Vegas69]

It seems that in most cases, car owners focus on show or go but not at the same time. At least not at the level we are contemplating.

The show car crap is so subjective. I'd rather control my own destiny.

[dunnjun]

Can it happen? Yes

Will hit happen? Probably not.

If a "hot shoe" wins the lottery or is financed, a winner for both could be built. It would take way over $500k to do, but there are plenty of talented builders out there that could pull this off. None of them have put the package together yet. The "Pro-touring" movement is rapidly advancing. It is just a matter of time before a top builder gets the knowledge needed to build a fast car that looks good enough to win SMOTY. Blu Balz is close on both fronts, but not there yet. If someone where to give me $500k, I could give it a shot! :D

Hey Brian, here's $500,00 oh crap, the markets in Asia just went down! Never mind. :D The Runt was pretty close. Awesome car, but it's not gonna beat Danny. Your right, it's the hot shoe, and the killer car combination, that make this so difficult. Everything that makes a SMOTY adds weight, that has to come off somewhere else. Your car came in under weight, and you got to add ballast...where you wanted it. Blu Balz is too heavy, needs more HP, more rubber, and a hot shoe. :D I think she's closer to a SMOTY than a OUSCI. If you'd put some damn windows in your car, you might pull it off. :woot: jk You want to borrow some billet /carbon cup holders?

[SLO_Z28]

I think Blu Balz 2 is still in the works right Karl? With Cris getting advice from the pros he is now, you might have a serious contender in that car.

[tazzz2_ca]

I think Blu Balz 2 is still in the works right Karl? With Cris getting advice from the pros he is now, you might have a serious contender in that car.

Karl has a killer car in Blu Balz and Chris did a beautiful job building the car without question,,,,, Now if you want the car to run nails give the Dam thing to DSE....
With respect here guys,,,,, who the hell are these "Pro's" that know how to optimize a suspension system better that DSE who engineered it...DSE's owners are trained engineers specifically in the area of suspensions and worked for a major car manufacture in that area... Logic and history, not to mention being the designers of the product make the decision pretty simple when reviewed....

Chris has done a beautiful job and is to be commended for building such a beautiful car...

Addressing Jeff's comment,,, your opinion is based on what engineering background???? And you've worked at what major car manufacture to have such depth of knowledge about suspension engineering???? Man sometimes I really think you like to hear yourself Talk Jeff,,, God knows I'm over your all to often offered/posted opinions on things you have nominal knowledge about already.... What a F--king joke,,, Rant Over......

[Stielow]

SMOTY has turned into a car show. Kyle Tucker won SMOTY in 2000 with Twister. That car could have won OUSCI if there was one in 2000. Today the Goodguys want a over the top "show car". I like the Goodguys events but I like the track stuff a lot better. If I won the lottery and I could build a car with my buddy Troy Trepanier. There is a shot of winning both. One is a car show one is a TV show......and a lot of politics...:_paranoid

I took Red Devil to Goodguys Columbus event and had a blast waiting in the parking lot to do 5 passes at the AutoX over 3 days....:willy:

Not my kinda deal. I did get to see all my buddies though.

See ya at the track and OUSCI this year ---- Stielow

[SLO_Z28]

Karl has a killer car in Blu Balz and Chris did a beautiful job building the car without question,,,,, Now if you want the car to run nails give the Dam thing to DSE....
With respect here guys,,,,, who the hell are these "Pro's" that know how to optimize a suspension system better that DSE who engineered it...DSE's owners are trained engineers specifically in the area of suspensions and worked for a major car manufacture in that area... Logic and history, not to mention being the designers of the product make the decision pretty simple when reviewed....

Chris has done a beautiful job and is to be commended for building such a beautiful car...

Addressing Jeff's comment,,, your opinion is based on what engineering background???? And you've worked at what major car manufacture to have such depth of knowledge about suspension engineering???? Man sometimes I really think you like to hear yourself Talk Jeff,,, God knows I'm over your all to often offered/posted opinions on things you have nominal knowledge about already.... What a F--king joke,,, Rant Over......

Take a chill pill dude, your getting to be as abrasive as I am. Your grammar makes my head hurt, I know this is the internet but try to have some semblance of structure and thought especially when you're representing a company.

DSE hired the same "Pro" to get their cars sorted out that Cris did. You don't need to be an engineer to have a fundamental understanding of vehicle dynamics, this should make sense to anyone with a head on their shoulders:
http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h399/SLO_Z28/tire.jpg
The engineering aspect of it comes into play when you start working with applied kinematics in dynamics.

[coolwelder62]

There are car's in the work's right now that are being built just for an upcoming OUSCI.So it will prob. not happen for some time.SORRY.

[GrabberGT]

... If I won the lottery and I could build a car with my buddy Troy Trepanier. ....

Just the scenario I was thinking of with my post.

[clill]

Stielow will get hit by lightning before he wins the lottery.

[dunnjun]

Quote: "To me SMOTY is turning into what happened at indoor ISCA shows. As soon as the masses feel like they have lost touch with the possibility of attaining a goal, they will move on to something else."Quote


Even though all of us are awed by the quality of all of the cars that are capable of winning a SMOTY, to most of us, they are not representative of the street/race trend of todays builds. Maybe there needs to be a new award that is more reflective of the direction our sport is headed. Since design is still a quarter of the points at OUSCI, and most of our cars are still street driven. It would seem that we're looking at an award that would take form and function into consideration. Something short of SMOTY, it would honor design, but the award would also recognize the race car focus and capabilities that are major goals of an increasing number of current builds.

To that end I propose the Street Car Racer Of The Year Award, the SCROTY. And IMO BLU BALZ has this one in the bag.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[garickman]

To that end I propose the Street Car Racer Of The Year Award, the SCROTY. And IMO BLU BALZ has this one in the bag.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That's kinda funny!!

[dunnjun]

What can I say. I was visiting Margaritaville when it popped in my head. I couldn't resist.:)

[tazzz2_ca]

What can I say. I was visiting Margaritaville when it popped in my head. I couldn't resist.:)

Too funny buddy,,,, it was great chatting earlier today and I'll look forward to seeing you soon...

[GregWeld]

To that end I propose the Street Car Racer Of The Year Award, the SCROTY. And IMO BLU BALZ has this one in the bag.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


You must have been scratchin' your SCROTY when you wrote that one up!


I could see the smile on your face as the wheels were turning' to come up with that!

:thumbsup: :cheers:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

To that end I propose the Street Car Racer Of The Year Award, the SCROTY. And IMO BLU BALZ has this one in the bag.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That's kinda funny!! I know but that would be nutz. LOL

I don't know man I'll echo Steilow thoughts SMOTY has turned into top dollar show all, all I have to say is good luck. Popularity alone might not be enough.

[uppster]

And when/if the perfect winning mega buck owner gets the car done, he hires a professional.............driver!

[GregWeld]

Addressing Jeff's comment,,, your opinion is based on what engineering background???? And you've worked at what major car manufacture to have such depth of knowledge about suspension engineering???? Man sometimes I really think you like to hear yourself Talk Jeff,,, God knows I'm over your all to often offered/posted opinions on things you have nominal knowledge about already.... What a F--king joke,,, Rant Over......



Who is Jeff?? I want to be pissed at him too.... :rofl:

[tazzz2_ca]

Who is Jeff?? I want to be pissed at him too.... :rofl:

A very rare rant on my part Greg,,,, sorry gang..

[Ron in SoCal]

What can I say. I was visiting Margaritaville when it popped in my head. I couldn't resist.:)

Maybe you were thinking of this?

http://blogs.popularhotrodding.com/6778381/events/phr-muscle-car-of-the-year/index.html

[mpozziCPL]

DSE hired the same "Pro" to get their cars sorted out that Cris did.

You do know that when BB struggled at Del Mar, calling for advice had said "Pro" opining with "Go back to your old set-up." There are so many different variations that allow suspension and chassis tuning but one thing is crystal clear. The car has to be compliant, first and foremost.

One question I asked in the very beginning of all this was "Are you chasing a time or chasing compliancy?" as if you have one, you'll most likely have the other. With a really, really good driver, something with holes in the handling can be forced to get around a corner and yes, turn a fast lap anywhere.

At last conversation with Cris and this may have changed by today, BB currently has very stiff springs and (I think) shocks set accordingly which, to me, doesn't work with my driving abilities. Neither Dave nor I have driven this car since it's initial outing at a local event so can't comment on what's happening currently. There are a lot of cooks throwing ingredients in the soup pot and hopefully one or two will hit on that special something that's makes it a winner.

Good luck!

Mary Pozzi

[Matt@BOS]

*Waits for Todd to post about how he he has been saying that every car needs to be tuned for its owners specific style of driving*

Matt

[Stuart Adams]

Racing is like golf. You will never perfect it, you have to love the journey to get better and realize todays success does not mean tomorrows success. Each day the course is different or the conditions change on the same course hourly.

Going to different venues and the nuckleheads here are the fun.

[garickman]

So with all the discussion going on, does anyone have any sneak peaks of who is bringing what to Columbus this year?

[Cris@JCG]

James- BB 2 is on hold till we finish out some other hot projects we have now.. We are taking all that we learned from BB 1 & building a purpose built car...

I think Blu Balz 2 is still in the works right Karl? With Cris getting advice from the pros he is now, you might have a serious contender in that car.

Albert- Thank you for the compliments on BB.. I apprecaite the props!

I have been working with DSE on some of the changes we have done to the car.. I have relayed info over to Kyle & have had in depth conversations with him about it.. He drove the car @ RTTC & Delmar.. but we have also had some of the best Auto-x drivers in the hot seat.. BB is gonna be a great car for the road course.. but still trying to find its happy spot on the Auto-X..

In the last year or so.. we have been pushing cars to the limits of what product was designed for.. DSE is aware that changes for adjustments on their suspension will be required.. The Mustang product they have been working on incorporates that.. Per conversation with Kyle.. I can't wait to check that out.. The cool thing about DSE product is you set the car to their recommended aligmment specs & you have a car that drivess just like a new car.. Tracks straight..

I know of some guys that are not engineers but know how to build suspension & are some of the best drivers.. so they can be very competive.. Stielow is a deadly combination! An engineer plus a "DAMM' good driver.. I would consider the Tuckers in the same catagory.. I would hand over to these guys & gals anytime to my own personal car to track it.. but would also do the same with Mary, Brian H, & Mike Maiers.. drivers can give you some much input on what a car needs for it to be complient..


Karl has a killer car in Blu Balz and Chris did a beautiful job building the car without question,,,,, Now if you want the car to run nails give the Dam thing to DSE....
With respect here guys,,,,, who the hell are these "Pro's" that know how to optimize a suspension system better that DSE who engineered it...DSE's owners are trained engineers specifically in the area of suspensions and worked for a major car manufacture in that area... Logic and history, not to mention being the designers of the product make the decision pretty simple when reviewed....

Chris has done a beautiful job and is to be commended for building such a beautiful car...

Addressing Jeff's comment,,, your opinion is based on what engineering background???? And you've worked at what major car manufacture to have such depth of knowledge about suspension engineering???? Man sometimes I really think you like to hear yourself Talk Jeff,,, God knows I'm over your all to often offered/posted opinions on things you have nominal knowledge about already.... What a F--king joke,,, Rant Over......

Karl- Damm funny!

Quote: "To me SMOTY is turning into what happened at indoor ISCA shows. As soon as the masses feel like they have lost touch with the possibility of attaining a goal, they will move on to something else."Quote


Even though all of us are awed by the quality of all of the cars that are capable of winning a SMOTY, to most of us, they are not representative of the street/race trend of todays builds. Maybe there needs to be a new award that is more reflective of the direction our sport is headed. Since design is still a quarter of the points at OUSCI, and most of our cars are still street driven. It would seem that we're looking at an award that would take form and function into consideration. Something short of SMOTY, it would honor design, but the award would also recognize the race car focus and capabilities that are major goals of an increasing number of current builds.

To that end I propose the Street Car Racer Of The Year Award, the SCROTY. And IMO BLU BALZ has this one in the bag.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ron- Thanks for reminding about this invite..
Karl- BTW we got invited to this event after Goodguys in Columbus! :D

Maybe you were thinking of this?

http://blogs.popularhotrodding.com/6778381/events/phr-muscle-car-of-the-year/index.html

Mary- With 850 springs & 550 in the rear.. we need some changes... Brian & Casey have recommended that we need to loosen the car in the front.. At MATS we disconnected the front roll bar & softened the rear bar.. Got the car to bite in a tight corner but the wave trac didn't like it.. We were losing power to the rear wheels.. We went back to the settings that we started @ when we arrived .. Delmar .. We were fighting a bunch of issues.. But their we ran with no sway bars to get the car to commit to tight corners.. But had plenty of springs.. The car is to tight right now on springs.. Plus changing tires.. going to Pilot Super Sports.. 305-30-19 in the fronts.. 345-30-19 in the rear.. These are the last changes & it will be ready for Karl..

I have learned alot from driver to driver.. But BB has never been happy on tight hairpin turns with You, Brian or Mike.. Karl was fighting it too @ MATS.. the car pushes off on a tight turn like that.. SO we are putting bigger tires on the front.. I also have to listen to you on the fact that the car needs to come up on the front too.. Kyle also recommended it..

I am hoping this special blend of soup will eventually will lead to better times & compliancy!

You do know that when BB struggled at Del Mar, calling for advice had said "Pro" opining with "Go back to your old set-up." There are so many different variations that allow suspension and chassis tuning but one thing is crystal clear. The car has to be compliant, first and foremost.

One question I asked in the very beginning of all this was "Are you chasing a time or chasing compliancy?" as if you have one, you'll most likely have the other. With a really, really good driver, something with holes in the handling can be forced to get around a corner and yes, turn a fast lap anywhere.

At last conversation with Cris and this may have changed by today, BB currently has very stiff springs and (I think) shocks set accordingly which, to me, doesn't work with my driving abilities. Neither Dave nor I have driven this car since it's initial outing at a local event so can't comment on what's happening currently. There are a lot of cooks throwing ingredients in the soup pot and hopefully one or two will hit on that special something that's makes it a winner.

Good luck!

Mary Pozzi

[Vegas69]

*Waits for Todd to post about how he he has been saying that every car needs to be tuned for its owners specific style of driving*

Matt

Bingo was her namo.

Finding the balance between street, autocross, and road racing is the real trick. Throw in the speed stop squared and it's gets real interesting. :_paranoid From springs, shocks, brake pads, alignment, power plant, you just can't have it all in every event. Pick one that you are great at or walk the tight rope. To me that's what this pro touring is about.

If your car knocks your teeth loose on the street or it wants to hook a rut on the road and put you into the median, that's not my idea of a compliant pro touring car.

When Cris, Brian, and I sat down to talk shop over some drinks, I told Cris what I felt the best compliment I had heard about the car. Brian said, "Blue Balz feels better than a new car and I can't stop thinking about it".

It's my opinion that many around here are forgetting that variable of the sport we enjoy around here. Do you want a race car or a pro touring car?

[Flash68]

It's my opinion that many around here are forgetting that variable of the sport we enjoy around here. Do you want a race car or a pro touring car?

Not forgetting... it's the growing # and quality of events, and the desire to place well or win at these events that is driving the direction more than individually chosen goals.

It's a fair question, but more and more people are answering "race car" with their parts and tuning choices. And there's really nothing wrong with that.

Hell, we all know tons of nice PT (non-race) cars that can but don't get driven hardly at all except on a track or autoX. And maybe that's where this niche is slowing gravitating toward... cars that run on tracks and appear to be pro touring cars, but don't actually do the "pro touring" thing?

Seeing cars like Brian's car and Mike Maier's car kick ass and look and sound like they do will surely make many want to follow that direction. They have inspired me that's for sure.

[Flash68]

Who is Jeff?? I want to be pissed at him too.... :rofl:

A very rare rant on my part Greg,,,, sorry gang..

Albert -- no need to apologize -- you simply wrote what many others already think. :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

Not forgetting... it's the growing # and quality of events, and the desire to place well or win at these events that is driving the direction more than individually chosen goals.

It's a fair question, but more and more people are answering "race car" with their parts and tuning choices. And there's really nothing wrong with that.

Hell, we all know tons of nice PT (non-race) cars that can but don't get driven hardly at all except on a track or autoX. And maybe that's where this niche is slowing gravitating toward... cars that run on tracks and appear to be pro touring cars, but don't actually do the "pro touring" thing?

Seeing cars like Brian's car and Mike Maier's car kick ass and look and sound like they do will surely make many want to follow that direction. They have inspired me that's for sure.

You are misunderstanding my direction here. My point is, you don't know what you have until your project is on the road. Not everybody around here wants a rowdy race oriented car and may not understand the difference until it's to late. Clearly you are about as far to the race side as could be. I talked to Matt Alcala last weekend and he said he would rather move more towards the other end of the spectrum and his car is far from rowdy. Everybody has their own idea of their perfect pro touring car. But do they have the experience under their belt to build it?

In regards to Mike & Brian. When Brian and I sat down we talked about this whole deal. I personally prefer these type of cars and I'm glad they have joined our group. It's just not possible to compete with them in a car like Blue Balz. My point was that Blue Balz is an awful nice pro touring car to turn into a race car. If that's what the owner desires, then so be it.

[Flash68]

You are misunderstanding my direction here. My point is, you don't know what you have until your project is on the road. Not everybody around here wants a rowdy race oriented car and may not understand the difference until it's to late. Clearly you are about as far to the race side as could be. I talked to Matt Alcala last weekend and he said he would rather move more towards the other end of the spectrum and his car is far from rowdy. Everybody has their own idea of their perfect pro touring car. But do they have the experience under their belt to build it?

In regards to Mike & Brian. When Brian and I sat down we talked about this whole deal. I personally prefer these type of cars and I'm glad they have joined our group. It's just not possible to compete with them in a car like Blue Balz. My point was that Blue Balz is an awful nice pro touring car to turn into a race car. If that's what the owner desires, then so be it.

And that's a different point you just made and one most people have learned the hard way. I was "lucky" in the fact that I was building the wrong car for me (right at the time, or so I thought) and had to sell it. You have tougher choices to make because you built such a nice damn street car that you now beat like a race car.

If you're competitive like I know you and I both are, it is difficult to not succumb to making those "performance first" improvements. Especially when the fast get faster.

In regards to Matt... a blown motor will do that to ya. :lol:

I don't know anyone who isn't glad Mike and Brian joined the group... unreal cars and nice approachable guys with no egos. :thumbsup:

My point was that Blue Balz is an awful nice pro touring car to turn into a race car. If that's what the owner desires, then so be it.

People have been saying that about your car for awhile now. :lol:

[Vegas69]

:lol:

Until you've lived it, you really don't know what you want. I've chosen my route. I can't lose the streetability of my car unless I want to cut the value of the car dramatically. I think I'll just keep enjoying myself for a while.:unibrow:

[Matt@BOS]

I talked to Matt Alcala last weekend and he said he would rather move more towards the other end of the spectrum and his car is far from rowdy. Everybody has their own idea of their perfect pro touring car. But do they have the experience under their belt to build it?



Alright Todd, I'll let you drive my car at El Toro next year. I'm hoping it will be sorted, however I always change things before hand, and every year I seem to bring a car with untested parts that break. The last two years my car has had engine issues, and the first year it was completely unsorted and had an idiot driver. Anyway, other than the sheer amount of noise yours makes over mine, you'll probably be surprised how far it feels from being a tame street car, despite looking it. I drove with Kyle Tucker back to back in my car and Rodger's Chassis Works Camaro, and mine felt way less like a street car on the track than Rodger's. Weird, huh?

Anyway, that got me thinking, and I realized, something that looks and feels like a race car doesn't necessary have to handle like one, and vice versa.

The one thing I don't like about my Camaro is actually its level of refinement. Often, I wish it was either more refined, or less refined. It is kind of stuck in the middle. Some days I love it as is, some days I want a car like Dave, or Brian or Mike has, and some days I want a nice quiet grocery getter like the Newman wagon :lol:

Going back to driving school recently made me realize that I really want a car kind of like my Camaro, but with a quieter interior, better ride height so I'm not always scraping on speed bumps, and every type of cooler known to man, including one to hold beer at Good Guys shows :lol:

Basically I want to build something like my Camaro but with a quieter interior and extensive sheetmetal work! In other words, something that harder in refinement, design, and driveability. Maybe it will be runner up to top five at SMOY, and mid pack at Optima :lol:

Matt

[Vegas69]

At the end of the day, these are still 40 year old cars. I'm not sure you could ever get them to the level of compliance you crave on the refined side.

I'm with you on the middle ground and days where I would prefer a full blown race car. I'm at the point where I don't care to street drive mine much. I put plenty of miles under my belt during the week. I don't come home and think, man I'd like to go for a drive. :lol: Then again, I do think I'd miss the street aspect. Those lazy cruises down the interstate, driving to the track, kicking ass, and driving back home. There is a certain amount of pride there as well.

I'll take you up on that test drive. :unibrow: :D

[Matt@BOS]

Eh, it's not like I want to turn an old car into a new 3 series or anything. I have much more modest expectations of my abilities, haha. I am beyond happy with my DSE suspension, I just want my next car to not scrape ground all the time, and to have less cabin noise. So it might get shorty headers, lizard skin, dynamat, etc. and old person like mufflers kinda like a new car. I've also decided I want more closely balanced tire sizes, but that is too hard to go into detail explaining here,

Oh and I want it to be faster than Payback :unibrow:

matt

[Vegas69]

Now you're pushing it.:lol:

[ironworks]

This has been my opinion on the the status or Pro-touring for a long time.

Guys have been building cars more and more competitive for a long time. The best Modification you can do it start taking the creature comforts out of the car to make the car weigh less and less. We are now starting to see the purpose built cars come over from the Autocross Sanctioning bodies. These cars are really race cars with license plates. They have lots of rod ends and other parts you would see on a race car, Parts that anybody that drives their car long distances will begin to hate after just a few miles 9on normal pot holes. Things like Fiberglass doors, No side windows at all, rod end rear suspension links, very low ground clearance, ETC. As much as these cars have a license plate it does not make them a street car by the standards set out just a few years ago. Everything but a window net and a Hans device.

If you go back say 20 Years when Drag racing was all the rage and Pro-Street cars were every where. People were driving these caged up looking race cars with lame no HP engines. Pretty soon one guy put a fast engine in his car and so the competition progressed on and on. This is where the sanctioning body of say the Pacific Street Car Association started in California. Remember the Name of the Sanctioning body says Street Car. Well now it is it to the point that the fastest class they have, Pro-Street, is nothing more then a Pro-Mod drag car, they run in the 5's. Then the class below that is Outlaw 10.5. My buddy Roger Holder has ruled the True 10.5 class for quite a few years. Up until just last year they ran a street Legal Drag radial tire to the mid to low 7's. That was probably the only thing "STREETABLE" on the car. He ran some 726" 3 stages of Nitrous engine with a 3 or 5 gal fuel tank in the engine compartment. Not very street able. Now he destroked the 726 to a 588 and has twin 104MM turbo's. This car runs on alcohol and should be able to run in the 6.90's and is losing lifters after 14 passes with a redline of 10,500 RPM. It is no where near a street car.

So my point is that I think the Pro-touring segment of the car industry is going to make 2 different kinds of guys in this industry. Some guys will build Full on Race cars to go have fun on the track, Others will decide they would just rather go cruise down the highway in a car that drives really nice and handles well on a twisty road. I'm sure this new car Mark Steilow is building is going to be another step toward race car. He is motivated to win and has the smarts to invent a better mouse trap.

My other rant is that alot of these cars are not legal to run in anything more then these events. Which maybe fine for some and not be enough for others. But to me if I'm going to build a race car I would like to build a car to I can run every weekend in any event I wanted. I have been looking at racing at the local dirt oval here in Bakersfield for this very reason. You can race every weekend, The rules are the same almost anywhere in the country. So in my eyes I don't have the option to only race my car when Goodguys comes to Town or Bill puts on his event. But I'm a guy who if given 5 tri-cycles and 4 buddies and a set of cones we could race for king of the hill all night long. If you ever see the Big Boys from Nascar say what their favorite track is, it usually is a go kart track in Dale Jr back yard. It is just racing, No rules no drama, no cheating. Just get to the front of the pack. I raced Go Karts for years and had more fun on Thursday night practicing with my buddies then I ever did come Saturday when everyone was so serious.


OK pointless RANT over.

[legend]

I think guys with the pockets deep enough to build that kind of car tend to race stuff like this

BJEpVYv2myw
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2700/4151452242_9dd54d55b9.jpg

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/ferrari-250-gto_100224155_m.jpg

[toddshotrods]

...I raced Go Karts for years...

Any pics of that? :)

[FETorino]

Eh, it's not like I want to turn an old car into a new 3 series or anything. I have much more modest expectations of my abilities, haha. I am beyond happy with my DSE suspension, I just want my next car to not scrape ground all the time, and to have less cabin noise. So it might get shorty headers, lizard skin, dynamat, etc. and old person like mufflers kinda like a new car. I've also decided I want more closely balanced tire sizes, but that is too hard to go into detail explaining here,

Oh and I want it to be faster than Payback :unibrow:

matt

:thumbsup: I thought you already bought the car your describing. all you had to do was remove the stripes and change the wheels.....:lol:

[rrunner68]

Oh and I want it to be faster than Payback :unibrow:

matt

Shouldn't be too hard Matt, he had to use cheater tires to go barely faster than a Road Runner. :wow: Once. And couldn't back it up. Which means it was probably a cone missing on a turn. :willy: :willy: Oh snap*

[FETorino]

Any pics of that? :)

Funny I'm 6'4" and ran a shifter kart. I remember I had to run an extended porch and then went to a Renspeed frame cuz I didn't fit in the others. I'm sure I looked like a shriner in a parade in that thing. I think he is even taller than me.

[GregWeld]

Here would be my one and only contribution to this thread.....

I thought PRO TOURING was exactly what we're all talking about?


A truly street drivable car with creature comforts that is CAPABLE of running a road race or auto cross course and doing reasonably well. Driving to and from in comfort and style with the tunes on full blast.....


Note that capable does not equate to winning.... it means placing well. And it should only be placing well against similar cars. Race cars are race cars and pro touring isn't. :cheers:

[Matt@BOS]

Shouldn't be too hard Matt, he had to use cheater tires to go barely faster than a Road Runner. :wow: Once. And couldn't back it up. Which means it was probably a cone missing on a turn. :willy: :willy: Oh snap*

Actually, he got that time because I was riding in the car with him :lol: True story.

Greg, I think you should put 200 tread wear tires on that little Mustang and throw a repop carpet in it. Make it a real street car...

Oh, and when you said "tunes at full blast," is that because it needs to be that loud to hear anything well? At least that is how my car is...

Matt

[GregWeld]

Actually, he got that time because I was riding in the car with him :lol: True story.

Greg, I think you should put 200 tread wear tires on that little Mustang and throw a repop carpet in it. Make it a real street car...

Oh, and when you said "tunes at full blast," is that because it needs to be that loud to hear anything well? At least that is how my car is...

Matt

Oh -- and a few other things like headlights (I have none) - wipers - street able exhaust - turn signals....

Tunes at full blast - because Todd can't drive well without some heavy metal running thru his pretty little head.

I don't think they make 200 TW in 15"

The doors on the MuttStang have the winder tracks covered up with nice aluminum lest there be some wind resistance....



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/65%20Mustang%20Track%20car/014.jpg

[RECOVERY ROOM]

Any pics of that? :)

He had to duck down because the wind resistance would hold him back

[mpozziCPL]

Very well said, Greg ...

Mary Pozzi

[Vegas69]

Shouldn't be too hard Matt, he had to use cheater tires to go barely faster than a Road Runner. :wow: Once. And couldn't back it up. Which means it was probably a cone missing on a turn. :willy: :willy: Oh snap*

I'm sure with 200 runs under my belt I could've become a little more consistent. :unibrow:

[Matt@BOS]

I'm sure with 200 runs under my belt I could've become a little more consistent. :unibrow:

Should have bought those Hotchkis hood pins instead of the Ring Brother's ones. Maybe then you could join the H-Team, although I think they want fast drivers.

Matt

p.s. Greg, you don't need wipers or exhaust, and you definitely don't want windows - I think that is the secret behind Brian Hobaugh and Brett Campbell being so damn quick.

[ironworks]

Should have bought those Hotchkis hood pins instead of the Ring Brother's ones. Maybe then you could join the H-Team, although I think they want fast drivers.

Matt


WOW Matt that was so Awesome.

Warning now Todd will make pointless video about you. HAHA

[DTM Racing]

I'm sure with 200 runs under my belt I could've become a little more consistent. :unibrow:

LOL, seriously. I'm pretty sure I could go to my local Walmart parking lot, throw some random 300lbs woman in my passenger seat, blindfold myself, and still drive that course down to within an inch of the line. :woot:
Last year was worse; I think we had figured out the Road Runner had done 360 something runs over the 3 days. Brand new set of KDW's were corded by the last day. :(

[Vegas69]

WOW Matt that was so Awesome.

Warning now Todd will make pointless video about you. HAHA

I'm not philosophical enough. :lol: BAM:lol:

LOL, seriously. I'm pretty sure I could go to my local Walmart parking lot, throw some random 300lbs woman in my passenger seat, blindfold myself, and still drive that course down to within an inch of the line. :woot:
Last year was worse; I think we had figured out the Road Runner had done 360 something runs over the 3 days. Brand new set of KDW's were corded by the last day. :(

:lol: That's some serious track time to wear out a set of KDW's!

[mpozziCPL]

Dan'll probably blame me for that as we had to put the 'Runner to the fire when the Challenger radiator sprung an impromptu "leak."

Mary P.

[Diognes56]

If I won the lottery and I could build a car with my buddy Troy Trepanier.

Just call up clill and have Troy call up Poteet, have them be patrons ;) . Probably more likely than winning the lotto. Heck, I would throw some money your way just to see the awesomeness that would come from a Rad Rides/Stielow collaboration :wow: , but you would have to let me take a picture with the car :cool: .

David