Need your opinion re: returning a deposit on a car transaction

[Ron in SoCal]

Hey Guys,

Need honest opinions here. Backstory is I recently sold a car that is in high demand - low mileage 1996 Porsche C4S. Found a buyer very quickly and executed a bill of sale on Mar 10. Received a $250 deposit via Paypal the day before. We had agreed on a $500 deposit, but Buyer stated that's all he had in his PPal account. Balance was to be paid via bank wire. Buyer stated daily that the wire was going out the next day for a week. Even had me re-send wire instructions twice. I had my banker on the look out for the wire every day. According to the Banker none was rejected. I gave the buyer various wire trace numbers he could use with his bank to determine where it went. I was never told what the results of the trace was, if ever conducted.

Buyer leaves the country. Sends me emails and texts from the UK but then drops off the map. This is after daily phone calls/emails prior. Last Friday, with no direct communication from him for a few days and no $$$, I send him an email to get in touch with me and let me know we are still on or I will move on. Still no communication from Buyer #1. Sell the car Sunday to the first guy that comes to look at it. Notify Buyer #1 it was a pleasure doing business but I have sold the car to someone else.

I should also mention Buyer #1 is a broker that sends these cars back to Germany as they have higher value there. I even spoke to his 'buyer' so I suspect he was 'floating' the transaction. I care not, as long as he pays me as we agreed.

Last Wed Buyer finally emails me back. Feathers ruffled. Totally confused on why I sold the car to someone else. Kind of comical at this point. This was after he dropped off the map for a week with no communication, even after my last note to him saying 'get in touch or I'm going to sell the car to someone else.'

I have email trails and text messages to back all this up.

He wants his $250 deposit back. I'm of two minds here. A deposit on a car is to hold it and consumate the deal. He did not execute. OTOH, I'm not into taking someone's $$$$, but everyone I speak with says his loss.

What say you??

[Flash68]

Wow. That's BS. Keep the deposit. Unless it was clearly stated as refundable, I believe it is yours to keep. Did the BOS state anything about the deposit being refundable or non-refundable?

And paypal isn't like a bank account... if he says he had only $250 in his paypal account, that translates to either he has a $250 limit on his credit card or only $250 in his checking/savings account linked to that paypal account. Total BS.

Although, if he really pursues this hard (likely not, since it's only $250) and starts giving you trouble, you could just give it back to make it all go away. But I would def make him work damn hard to get this $250 back. :)

[Track Junky]

No brainer Ron. If you were to return the deposit you'ld be doing him a favor. I say hold out and think about it if you decide to give it back to him. Make him piss, moan, and stomp his feet for awhile.

[jy211]

pull money out of paypal before he tried to get them to freeze it.

I'd keep the $250 and be done

[Ron in SoCal]

Wow. That's BS. Keep the deposit. Unless it was clearly stated as refundable, I believe it is yours to keep. Did the BOS state anything about the deposit being refundable or non-refundable?

And paypal isn't like a bank account... if he says he had only $250 in his paypal account, that translates to either he has a $250 limit on his credit card or only $250 in his checking/savings account linked to that paypal account. Total BS.

Although, if he really pursues this hard (likely not, since it's only $250) and starts giving you trouble, you could just give it back to make it all go away. But I would def make him work damn hard to get this $250 back. :)

Thanks DG - BOS makes no mention of the deposit. It does state car is to be paid in full within 24 hours of execution. He missed that timeframe by a mile.

I agree on the PPal deposit amount. Sounded fishy, but I had some $$$ and a BOS so I thought the transaction was secure. Second buyer gave a $5k deposit if that tells you anything about intent...:yes:

[Ron in SoCal]

No brainer Ron. If you were to return the deposit you'ld be doing him a favor. I say hold out and think about it if you decide to give it back to him. Make him piss, moan, and stomp his feet for awhile.

Thx Bro!

pull money out of paypal before he tried to get them to freeze it.

I'd keep the $250 and be done

I've been doing some parts selling lately so I had a nice PPal balance. Buyer has initiated a dispute and the two fiddy is frozen. I responded w cut/paste of email trail.

[Flash68]

I'll bet he has played this game before...

$250 deposit on a car is not much intent as you mentioned... I'd think $1000 minimum is really the mark.

[Matt@BOS]

Whatever you do Ron, just make sure that this doesn't head over to paypal dispute claims. $250 is nice to have in your pocket, and probably worth the hassle of dealing with buyer #1, but that money isn't worth the hassle of paypal dispute b.s.

Glad you were able to move the car quickly though!

Matt

[Chad-1stGen]

Sounds like a retarded buyer and the scenario I've always been worried about having when accepting a deposit.

This is why I always try to explicitly state (in writing or verbal depending on $$) if the deposit is refundable or not and the length of time the deposit buys. I'm not in the business of storage. If you don't complete the transaction in a reasonable time I'm selling it to someone else and keeping the deposit...

[Ketzer]

You earned the money dealing with a flaky buyer. Deposits are generally understood to be non-refundable.

Now you have to decide if $250 is worth dealing with all the bitching and moaning. Also, do not count on Paypal to do right by you. That money will probably be frozen for months. They are not looking out for your interests, only theirs.

At least you did sell the car without issue the second time around :thumbsup: .


Jeff-

[Ron in SoCal]

I'll bet he has played this game before...

$250 deposit on a car is not much intent as you mentioned... I'd think $1000 minimum is really the mark.

Yep, he's a commecial RE broker. I reminded him this is a car, not real property and you can't just tie it up in 'escrow' while you decide how/when to fund a deal.

Whatever you do Ron, just make sure that this doesn't head over to paypal dispute claims. $250 is nice to have in your pocket, and probably worth the hassle of dealing with buyer #1, but that money isn't worth the hassle of paypal dispute b.s.

Glad you were able to move the car quickly though!

Matt

Thx Matt. I was shocked how quickly this deal went. I was getting 3-4 calls/day on the car from all over the world. 993 C4S's are in very high demand. Over in GER they bought them and drove them and there's not many left. Porsche decided to go to that ugly 996 design and these became instant collector cars. IMO the 997s were a return to PCAR heaven.

[Ron in SoCal]

Sounds like a retarded buyer and the scenario I've always been worried about having when accepting a deposit.

This is why I always try to explicitly state (in writing or verbal depending on $$) if the deposit is refundable or not and the length of time the deposit buys. I'm not in the business of storage. If you don't complete the transaction in a reasonable time I'm selling it to someone else and keeping the deposit...

Well put Chad. Your post should be a sticky. Thx for your time on the phone the other day Bro...:thumbsup:

You earned the money dealing with a flaky buyer. Deposits are generally understood to be non-refundable.

Now you have to decide if $250 is worth dealing with all the bitching and moaning. Also, do not count on Paypal to do right by you. That money will probably be frozen for months. They are not looking out for your interests, only theirs.

At least you did sell the car without issue the second time around :thumbsup: .


Jeff-

Yup. Thx Ketz...

[intocarss]

You kept up your end of the deal and held the car and he flaked.........Keep the deposit

[214Chevy]

Ron, with you being the "Ron" that I know, which is a straight forward and stand up guy, I know you bent over backwards to reason with the guy and tried to be fair. I say, like many others here, if the refund wasn't mentioned as refundable and the guy never held up his end of the bargain......keep it. It's clear that there was some sort of Tom Foolery on his part and he knows, or at least he should if he's of sound mind, that he didn't do right by you by breaking down the lines of communication. Although, if it seams too much of a hassle with Paypal, give it back to him, but I would even dispute it if he disputes it with Paypal. Lastly, everyone knows that most deposits are not refundable, unless it clearly states that it is. If it doesn't state it, then it isn't.

[Ron in SoCal]

Thx Jerr and Marcus!

Just got an email from his 'Attorney' ... :lol:

[Flash68]

Just got an email from his 'Attorney' ... :lol:

Ron, let me send him a reply from "your atty".. :lol:

[onevoice]

I would disagree with most here. You sold the car on 3/10, and then again last sunday, which was the 18th. You didn't even wait a week before deciding to sell it the second time. Yes, I would expect someone to pay immediately, as I myself would do. But you really didn't even give him a week, and you knew he was out of the country. Unless you had an agreement to only hold it for a certain time period, I would just give him the money back and go on.

You should have told him upfront that you would not consider his $250 a deposit until he paid the entire $500. In that case, no harm no foul, and you are free to sell it out from under him. He never had an effective deposit and the right thing to do would be to hand him his money back also.

[hifi875]

I would disagree with most here. You sold the car on 3/10, and then again last sunday, which was the 18th. You didn't even wait a week before deciding to sell it the second time. Yes, I would expect someone to pay immediately, as I myself would do. But you really didn't even give him a week, and you knew he was out of the country. Unless you had an agreement to only hold it for a certain time period, I would just give him the money back and go on.

You should have told him upfront that you would not consider his $250 a deposit until he paid the entire $500. In that case, no harm no foul, and you are free to sell it out from under him. He never had an effective deposit and the right thing to do would be to hand him his money back also.

totally disagree!! its the buyer responsibility to pay up, or atleast communicate any issues that are keeping him/her from paying up. Keep the money or make him work for it.

[Flash68]

Thanks DG - BOS makes no mention of the deposit. It does state car is to be paid in full within 24 hours of execution. He missed that timeframe by a mile.



I would disagree with most here. You sold the car on 3/10, and then again last sunday, which was the 18th. You didn't even wait a week before deciding to sell it the second time. Yes, I would expect someone to pay immediately, as I myself would do. But you really didn't even give him a week, and you knew he was out of the country. Unless you had an agreement to only hold it for a certain time period, I would just give him the money back and go on.


Read Ron's previous comment on BOS stating buyer to pay IN FULL within 24 hrs.... your opinion of a week not being long enough to wait is irrelevant.

[214Chevy]

You should have told him upfront that you would not consider his $250 a deposit until he paid the entire $500.

REALLY!!

Ron, with you being the "Ron" that I know, which is a straight forward and stand up guy, I know you bent over backwards to reason with the guy and tried to be fair.


Like I said in my previous post. The "Ron" I know bent over backwards to help. And by Ron accepting the $250 instead of the $500 was to the buyers benefit anyway. He was doing the deadbeat a favor. Geeesh!! Let that guy be the one to not pay you and then and only then would you understand. A deadbeat buyer is only short of a liar in my book.:mad: :mad:

[Ron in SoCal]

paypal me 125.00 and i will tell you what to do....

Does it involve Columbian hos or hitmen? :lol:

[Ron in SoCal]

Read Ron's previous comment on BOS stating buyer to pay IN FULL within 24 hrs.... your opinion of a week not being long enough to wait is irrelevant.

REALLY!!




Like I said in my previous post. The "Ron" I know bent over backwards to help. And by Ron accepting the $250 instead of the $500 was to the buyers benefit anyway. He was doing the deadbeat a favor. Geeesh!! Let that guy be the one to not pay you and then and only then would you understand. A deadbeat buyer is only short of a liar in my book.:mad: :mad:

Thanks you guys. I forwarded Dave the most recent email string with dates/times/comments (or lack thereof). Buyer admitted his mistakes, and I did bend over backwards to do the deal with him. I gave him multiple chances to close the deal or give me documentation of his difficulty. He said daily for four days the money was already wired which it was not. When I had multiple buyers waiting to come view/buy the car and he just disapperaed, I gave him notice to contact me or I was going to move on. Of course, I did not hear from him for four more days and by that time I had moved on.

I appreciate opinions from both sides of this. And Marcus thanks for standing up Bro. :thumbsup: I'm cool and everyone is entitled to have their say. That's I put it out here...

[96z28ss]

I believe in Karma. is it really worth keeping the $250 when you did infact sell the car. Just be the nice guy and give the guy back his $250 and move on. Its not worth the headache this could turn into. Karma will pay you back in a different way.

[Ron in SoCal]

I believe in Karma. is it really worth keeping the $250 when you did infact sell the car. Just be the nice guy and give the guy back his $250 and move on. Its not worth the headache this could turn into. Karma will pay you back in a different way.

Been thinking about that all day Sir. It's one thing to say, 'hey you F'd me, I'm keeping the dough' and move on, but in my mind what are actual damages? Nothing dollar-wise and I got to talk to a couple more car guys about how cool my car is.

Plus, even though Buyer #1 was in the worng, I enjoyed my interaction w him.

Thx for your comment...:cheers:

[Flash68]

I believe in Karma. is it really worth keeping the $250 when you did infact sell the car. Just be the nice guy and give the guy back his $250 and move on. Its not worth the headache this could turn into. Karma will pay you back in a different way.

Good point Bob.

[Ron in SoCal]

I'm gonna send the guy the link to this thread...tomorrow. :D

I'm gonna send him his money back.

Final answer.

Other people in this world can fight tooth and nail over this stuff. Not me.

I really appreciate having a community of level headed guys to rely on for advice.

You guys ROCK! :lateral:

[Xplane]

Having recently completed a transaction with Ron on a set of wheels, I have to say he is truly exceptional to deal with. Wish there were more honest, straightforward, and helpful people like Ron out there.

Thanks again Ron!

[clill]

Send him half his money back and tell him he is lucky to get it.

[Ron in SoCal]

Thanks Michael. We both worked hard to make sure it worked out...:thumbsup:

[camcojb]

If he has your $250 tied up in a Paypal dispute make sure he ends that first before you refund the cash.

[Ron in SoCal]

If he has your $250 tied up in a Paypal dispute make sure he ends that first before you refund the cash.

Good advice Jody.

dude you spent days fretting over the wire transfer, numerous phone calls, bothering others involved with the deal, etc etc for what a week or so...that pain in the ass alone was worth more than 250....

So true, but im not like that. I make my money @ work, not off guys buying things I no longer need/want.

[elitecustombody]

Good advice Jody.



So true, but im not like that. I make my money @ work, not off guys buying things I no longer need/want.

Ron,but in this situation he was not the guy buying ,he only wasted your time.And usually to most folks time is money.

[RECOVERY ROOM]

Send him half his money back and tell him he is lucky to get it.

I agree, Unless he has a free Lawyer he will spend more trying to get it back. My wife is a Lawyer and she was standing in office when I was reading this...She said the same thing

[Flash68]

I may have changed my tune on liking the Karma thing after seeing this today. :D

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/561460_301582459912689_204152432989026_766828_1534 593874_n.jpg

[WSSix]

I'm with Bob and Jody. Make sure his dispute is canceled and just send him his money back. It's not worth the hassle. No sense in trying to get "even". Just move on and call it a day. That's how I'd do it.

[uppster]

When you take the high road you never have to look back and say, I wish I would have done that different.

[clill]

I guess my issue with giving him all his money back is he is just encouraged to string along other people also. If there is no downside for him there is no reason to stop.

[GregWeld]

Hey Guys,

Need honest opinions here. Backstory is I recently sold a car that is in high demand - low mileage 1996 Porsche C4S. Found a buyer very quickly and executed a bill of sale on Mar 10. Received a $250 deposit via Paypal the day before. We had agreed on a $500 deposit, but Buyer stated that's all he had in his PPal account. Balance was to be paid via bank wire. Buyer stated daily that the wire was going out the next day for a week. Even had me re-send wire instructions twice. I had my banker on the look out for the wire every day. According to the Banker none was rejected. I gave the buyer various wire trace numbers he could use with his bank to determine where it went. I was never told what the results of the trace was, if ever conducted.

Buyer leaves the country. Sends me emails and texts from the UK but then drops off the map. This is after daily phone calls/emails prior. Last Friday, with no direct communication from him for a few days and no $$$, I send him an email to get in touch with me and let me know we are still on or I will move on. Still no communication from Buyer #1. Sell the car Sunday to the first guy that comes to look at it. Notify Buyer #1 it was a pleasure doing business but I have sold the car to someone else.

I should also mention Buyer #1 is a broker that sends these cars back to Germany as they have higher value there. I even spoke to his 'buyer' so I suspect he was 'floating' the transaction. I care not, as long as he pays me as we agreed.

Last Wed Buyer finally emails me back. Feathers ruffled. Totally confused on why I sold the car to someone else. Kind of comical at this point. This was after he dropped off the map for a week with no communication, even after my last note to him saying 'get in touch or I'm going to sell the car to someone else.'

I have email trails and text messages to back all this up.

He wants his $250 deposit back. I'm of two minds here. A deposit on a car is to hold it and consumate the deal. He did not execute. OTOH, I'm not into taking someone's $$$$, but everyone I speak with says his loss.

What say you??



I'd tell him "F'you... Strong letter to follow".


I wouldn't give him a dime.

[Ron in SoCal]

I guess my issue with giving him all his money back is he is just encouraged to string along other people also. If there is no downside for him there is no reason to stop.

Very good point Charlie.

I'd tell him "F'you... Strong letter to follow".


I wouldn't give him a dime.

Been waiting for you to show up. It'd be easy for me to be a tough guy on this Greg, but there are no actual damages. Yes, my time's worth something but the car sold as soon as I cancelled the transaction and showed it again. I even made a little more dough on the deal.

[out2kayak]

I guess my issue with giving him all his money back is he is just encouraged to string along other people also. If there is no downside for him there is no reason to stop.

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:forums.corvetteforum.com/get/images/smilies/iagree.gif

[214Chevy]

... I even made a little more dough on the deal.

....well...uh, ole Ronnie, ole pal...my bestest buddy in the whole wide world...can I borrow a few coins? I do need to buy those very expensive Michelin Pilot Super Sports for my wheels and I'm a little bit shawt. :_paranoid :_paranoid

[Ron in SoCal]

....well...uh, ole Ronnie, ole pal...my bestest buddy in the whole wide world...can I borrow a few coins? I do need to buy those very expensive Michelin Pilot Super Sports for my wheels and I'm a little bit shawt. :_paranoid :_paranoid

Ha, funny you mention that Marcus. New buyer of the car asked me to put new shoes on - his nickel of course. I got him some Pilot Sports. Local vendor got me them 10% over cost. The tab? $1650. Those suckers are not cheap!

Anyway Bro, I'll send you the old tires if you want! Slightly used Bridgestone S02s...:D

[214Chevy]

Anyway Bro, I'll send you the old tires if you want! Slightly used Bridgestone S02s...:D

Hahahaha. My man!! (Denzel Washington's voice from the movie American Gangster.)

[Track Junky]

I figured you'd give it back. I'd do the same. Nice guys dont finish last, we've just been in the game long enough to know it's not worth the head ache. But like I previously posted, make him earn it back. Make him piss, moan, and stomp his feet for awhile. Probably wont teach that moron anything but screw with him anyways.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Thanks for finally giving me my deposit back; and to all you guys who told Ron not to. :mad:





:lol:

[Vegas69]

PUUSSY:unibrow:

[GregWeld]

No reason for the deposit if it doesn't mean anything and the guy doesn't have to follow through....

[elitecustombody]

No reason for the deposit if it doesn't mean anything and the guy doesn't have to follow through....

DITTO!