Lots of Vendor Talk, here's my Jerry McGuire

[NewGenWheels]

You know, I think it’s about time I get some things off my chest for my friends here on Lateral-G. Things that have been on my mind for over a year now, things that I think that just need to be out in the open for everyone to think about and take into consideration, what with all the “vendor talk” this past two weeks.

I guess you can say I have a unique perspective since owning Driverz Inc, and in many a case experienced all sorts of “interesting” transactions pertaining to the fore mentioned.

First of all, things have gotten BAD. You’ve got vendors discounting products so deeply that profits margins are down to 5% in some cases. Let me put that into perspective. At that rate, on a 7000 dollar subframe, the profit margin is $350 bucks. You tack on vendors offering “free shipping” or “no tax” and you quickly go in the hole on that sale. I think the only reason a vendor would still make that sale is because they needed the cash flow… which is why you see vendors selling product and not placing orders with manufacturers for weeks, sometimes months. Business 101 tells you that a discounted business model such as this is only successful when selling high volume and no vendor is selling enough 7000 dollar subframes to make a living making 350 bucks a pop. At Driverz, I’d have to sell 10 subframes just to pay my rent at the shop, light bill, insurance, phones and internet. Yeah…right.

And why aren’t the manufactures enforcing dealers to sell at retail? Well, they are probably just stocked to get another order. When you have big name manufacturers, all of who out of the blue, start selling other manufactures product, you know that things are not like how they use to be. For example, all of sudden, Hotchkis sells Baer brakes… huh?

Back in the day, you had to have a brick and mortar location to become a dealer for some manufacturers. Now, you can buy Ridetech from a dude sitting at a laptop in his boxers in the comfort of his own living room just cuz he has a website. Hell, I’ve even caught manufactures selling product direct for less then what dealer cost is?? WTF is that about? That just isn’t ethical to me.

And there has been a lot of talk about *******. I’ve personally been battling him as a competitor for 6 years, so I have a unique take on it all. I’ll tell you this, you can’t pimp yourself as the Walmart of parts, sell product for as deep as a discount as he does, and expect to come out ahead. Something has got to give. Nor can you continue to do it, and facilitate a high level of customer service to each and every one of those orders. I know I got caught up in competing with him because we sell to the same crowd, in the same arena, and frankly, I wouldn’t have made a single sale if we didn’t at least match some of the discounting. That’s why we had to sell Forgeline for 10-15% back all the time… because he does. In retrospect, I can tell you we felt like we had no choice, hell, we had to feed ourselves too, but who really won from doing that? No one did. Now every customer expects to pay that for Forgeline, and who’s ever going to pay retail for them again? I don’t only blame *******, but I blame the manufacturers for allowing it to happen. And I could only complain about it for so long before you either price match, or lose, so I eventually was forced to do the same. If you can’t beat em, join em, and trust me, I complained about it until I was blue in the face. My question is this, how can you advertise yourself as giving away 14K dollars worth of Forgeline wheels last year, and then be in debt to customers for what seems like WAY more than that? Ethically, when does it stop? How can you move into a new building, and pay for all that comes along with that, when you’ve got these guys beating down your door for refunds from over a year ago? I’m just calling it like how I see it. I can’t believe nobody else has come out and just said it. And tell me this, why do you all keep buying from him regardless? Do I need to quote Webster’s definition of “insanity”??? For example, I got a call from a customer just yesterday asking for a quote on a Wilwood disc brake package. I quoted him what Summit sells that same kit for, and he said ******* was beating that by 200 bucks. I said that was ridiculous, and I told him to go right ahead and order it from him, and good luck on getting it anytime soon. He then proceeded to tell me he’s had parts on order from ******* from July of last year, and that he doesn’t think he’s ever going to get them… so I asked the golden question, WHY ARE YOU GOING TO ORDER MORE PARTS FROM HIM THEN? I said, you’re ready to just go ahead and spend another 1700 bucks with him then? I understand if you don’t want to order it from a dealer because of your experience, but then by all means order it from Summit, or direct with Wilwood, but come on, lets think about what we’re doing, and who we’re spending our money with people.

Now I’m not going to stand up on a box and pretend we didn’t get behind when I owned Driverz Inc. Bills got higher, profit margins shrank for all the reasons above, and when we tried to raise pricing, buyers went away. But, I’ll tell you this… I took loans out on my cars, I sold hot rods, and took out lines of credit from my bank to make up for it. I didn’t let it get so out of hand that we couldn’t bounce back from it. And finally, when I re-visited my business model at the end of the year, realized that it couldn’t be done the way I was doing it and continue to feed my family, so I sold the business to a guy who is changing the model so it works. And I am now taking the things I’ve learned, applying it to the new venture, and building a business from the manufacturer’s seat.

You know, I had a customer call Driverz last week for a Speedtech subframe. I quoted him the retail price on our website, which is less retail by only 50 bucks and he asked about shipping. I told him there was a crating fee, which is clearly outlined on Speedtech’s website. He said, well Matt’s was going to ship it for free, and that there was no tax. I said no tax? They are in CA and so am I so there has to be tax. He said, “Oh, I’m sorry, it was that uh, that uh, Ironworks”. I said, Roger is in Bakersfield dude, he’s gotta charge you tax too!”. He said, oh, maybe I was mistaken, and that they were mis quoting me. I told him, I think you were just trying to get me to give you free shipping with no tax and that Matt’s and Ironworks said the same thing and you’re just trying to get us to compete with each other. I haven’t heard back from him, but judging by one of Roger’s other posts this week, I’m guessing he called him pulling the same BS.


I’d love to vent about another deeply disturbing situation. Don’t call a vendor, milk him for several hours’ worth of tech advice, then at the very end of it all, after the weeks, or months of working with him, make him price match summit, or *******, or whoever else is whoring it out that week. That is the biggest bull **** move of all time. I can’t tell you how many customers have pulled that. I know everyone wants to save a buck, but at some point, when does it end? Everyone talks about how they got screwed by the vendors, when do vendors start standing up and talking about how they got screwed? The poor sap who spent hours on the phone with you figuring out what works with your given situation just got screwed, and you have no remorse, or even later have the audacity to come on here and post about how its all about the bottom line, he didn’t give me the price I wanted? But you didn’t hesitate to waste hours of his time, did you? We had a customer earlier this year buy a set of wheels from us, that we customer serviced to death. He called and called and called and talked Justin’s ears off for months about what rear end to buy, what brakes to run, what transmission to run, what suspension to buy and when he finally got his wheels bitched, moaned and complained about how we could have gone wider, and bashed us like we screwed him and sold him a wheel set that didn’t “fit” when the wheels fit without rubbing, and that he could even run a wider tire. Yeah, that’s some BS right there. I know you all know what I’m talking about. All I’m saying here is it’s about time customers start taking some responsibility. If you start a relationship with a certain vendor, and they are truly bending over backwards to service you, give you all the tech advice they can, and are working HARD FOR YOU, then don’t give them grief when they are 50-100 or hell, even 200 bucks more in price. That guy, whose ear you’ve just chatted off for the last hour for free tech advice has a family, and kids too, and deserves the extra bit of money just for knowing what he knows, and willingly giving it to you in hopes you’ll spend your money with him. You know, I’ve even started having to tell customers, that I can’t give away backspace for a certain vehicle until we start writing up an order? You think I like having to say that? Definitely not. But at some point, something’s got to give. I’ve even contemplated charging for tech advice. Could you imagine that? You want to call in for backspace information cuz you saw a chevelle we fitted with 19s and 20s and you want the same look, sure, but unless you order from us, it’ll be 150 bucks up front for that info.

Have things come to that? I don’t think anyone here wants that.

[NewGenWheels]

Another thing, there’s a lot of talk about “It’s only the rich guys that say that”. Like in a post I read earlier tonite regarding you get the customer service you pay for. Dear customer: I’d propose this to you, do you think maybe you’re playing outside your means? Yeah, I said it… maybe it had to be said. If you can’t afford a subframe, don’t buy one. If you can’t afford expensive 3 piece wheels, don’t buy them either. Rethink your game plan, and if you can’t wait, and save up the extra duckets to afford it in a few more paychecks, well, then you can’t afford it (period). Don’t hunt and fish for the poor vendor who is willing to discount the product so severely that he practically lost money on the sale, because I’ll tell you this, you may have saved a few bucks, but you’re going to end up one of those guys on the forum bitching about his parts being late or how the finish on the wheel was inferior.
I learned a LONG time ago, there is always going to be another guy out there with more money than you, building a nicer car. So what? Let it go. Build the car you can, within the means that are available to you and have fun with it. Stop coming on the message board and pointing out the rich, like it’s a problem they buy expensive parts. They’ve earned their money somehow, and can afford to buy nice products, at retail, probably direct from the manufacturer. And you know what, good for them. They probably will get their parts sooner too. But if you bought at a deep discount, and are left waiting at the door a little longer for UPS to drop off your parts, don’t complain about it. You should have expected that. You saved 200 bucks though, woohoo!

When you shop, take into account this VERY important rule. There are three things everyone wants out of any transaction:

1: Price

2; Customer Service

3: Time Frame

Pick two of the three, that’s all you’ll ever get.


You want to know what I think? I think everyone should start selling at retail. Level the playing field. I think Frank, Matt’s Classic Bowties, Ironworks, DriverzInc, Muscle Rodz, and all the other vendors should start selling at retail, period. Then let the chips fall where they may. You want to talk about customer service? They’d be forced to out do each other with customer service and knowledge. And you know what, they could then afford to do it! If not, then maybe they'd be forced to do something new. Then everyone can start buying from who they like, and price wouldn’t be a factor. the last guy standing would be the one who knew the most, and customer serviced the best. I also think that everyone of these vendors should start talking to each other. Hell yeah, why not? You guys could share stories about that customer that just called you and tried to beat you down on price, and tried to play one vendor against the other. Hell, at least that would stop that nonsense from going around. No more, “Well I called (?) and they said free shipping, or they said they could do it for (x)”.

I think manufacturers should start forcing retail. Yeah, I said it. I’ll say it again. Margins are what they are for a reason. It allows enough profit in there for a vendor to maintain a living, and a legitimate business. And, it keeps the retail value of your product where it’s supposed to be. And if people stop buying your product, re-think your manufacturing, and find away to make your product cheaper so you can lower retail across the board.

Makes sense, don’t it?

Now I’m pretty sure I just stirred the pot, and I’m sure many of you may want to rebut. I’ll leave you with this final thought, until you’ve walked a mile in my shoes, you’ll never know what it takes to successfully run an aftermarket parts business, so don’t pretend to know. If you’ve done it, and are still doing it, then good, you have reason to post. If you haven’t, stop and just think about what you just read, and take away from it what you will. That is the real reason why I feel like posting this… hopefully you learned something. If you’re “that guy’ who thinks they could do it better then the vendors here, I beg you to try, and I’ll talk to you in 5 years about it, until then, don’t pretend you know, just read the post over again and take into consideration that I once, was just like you, and thought parts businesses made a killing, and that it would be “easy”. Uh, no, its not. Especially in this economy, and especially dealing with customers in today’s market who expect instant gratification.

Moral of the story? THINK about who you are spending your money with. And know that you are supporting them buy spending money with them, and if they are a little more in price… oh well, you put dinner on that dude’s table that night, or helped him buy his daughter that cheer-leading outfit they couldn’t afford, or helped pay for a portion of his mortgage that month when he thought for sure he was about to lose his house. And, finally, maybe, just maybe, you get what you pay for. And if you are ‘that guy” who shopped every vendor against each other for the little better deal, then don’t get all huffy when your order is treated the same way….you now know why.

[skatinjay27]

I enjoyed reading most of that...

seeing that 5% margine sucks big time
Hell I bitch n moan if my (face value) margine goes below 70% (restaurant)

[Bucketlist2012]

Don't know you, but I totally agree...

I always want to be treated fairly...I always want a good deal..

But I will be damned if i will nickel and dime the guy who is selling me my parts or doing my work..

Yes, I paid retail....Yes I bought Rushforths. Yes I paid the shop fees to have it built..

I went to them, they did not come to me....And I got everything I wanted on time and the right stuff...

I did ask for a discount.....Was told no....Do you want the wheels ? Then buy them... No weirdness, just fact...This is the price, do you want them..

Yes I did...They arrived perfect and on time, as all the other parts did.. So i did get two out of three...But you don't get the cheap price on custom wheels..

I have run business before, and you have to let the bottom feeders go, but they cannot and will not survive feeding the bottom and cutting prices too low...And they don't..

So as a customer, what you say makes total sense to me...

If I wanted something cheap, it sure would not be pro touring stuff... I would buy a Camry...:cheers: :lateralG

[bulldog19]

Well said Jon.

[SLO_Z28]

I worked in parts for some time, I know I wouldn't touch something that was less than a 75% gross profit. Ive often wondered how you guys manage to stay in business without manufacturing your own parts to supplement your income. At the cost of running a retail establishment I just don't see how you can keep going unless you're making $80 profit on a $140 alternator. Large volumes and just barely scraping by every month is the only way I see brick and mortar vendors even surviving.

[coolwelder62]

Jon,:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Payton King]

I am with you on this Jon. I could give reasons you are spot on and examples in my life but there is really no need. You hit the nail on the head.

[DTM Racing]

Amen!

[64pontiac]

AMEN to that!

Although if you pick price as your "two out of three", then I think you should have to forfeit your second pick.......:wow:

I'm sure every vendor has the exact same problems and hurdles, I spent days educating a customer (in person) about choices and parts to run, developed a project plan, and then got screwed when he started ordering his own parts and took the labour end of it to his "buddy" because he was only charging him 25 bucks an hour. And it wasn't someone who couldnt afford to pay....

I probably come accross as grumpy to some of our customers, but in the end its only because I can't afford to chat them up for hours and hours and they really havent spent much anyways. People are always amazed when they find out that the guy who just spent 250k is a "better" customer that their 569 dollar wiring harness purchase, because every customer is important right??

You have got to look out for yourself, because although all of our customers are coming to us in pursuit of their HOBBY, and have the misconception that that is all we are doing it for, when in reality we have got to feed our kids and pay our bills with it! And it is ALWAYS a shame to lose a sale to summit or jegs because it was 25 bucks cheaper, yet you were quoting your customer a shipped price........

For those of you who are Manitobans on this forum....... ITS NOT CHEAPER TO SHIP IT TO THE BORDER and pick it up yourself PERIOD. even if you get free continental US shipping, lets add it up:

-On ONE box, it is $5 US per box to pick it up at a parcel depot
-It is now $10.75 US service fee to cross the border only to pick up a parcel
-You still have to pay tax on the item you are bringing back, as you have not been across long enough for your personal exemption
-Gas money..... most of you are from Winnipeg, which is around 60 miles away each way. average 20 MPG for your vehicle choice, and that is 6 gal or 27.24 L (canadian) at 1.15/L so 31.25 in GAS
-TIME....our time is worth something, is yours? Did you take off work early? lose pay? waste your weekend? It takes MINIMUM 2.5 hours without lineups at the border.

That equals around 48 bucks CAD without the tax for the item on ONE box. That box could only contain a 100 dollar part. Was my price really that bad? You be the judge. Also, when I recieve my items, I check the box and the item to see if it is right or damaged or missing. If it is wrong, I deal with it. You have to ship it back or buy another one.

Also for any of our suppliers, this is why we DONT like to ship to a US address. Add in our time and it is cheaper for us to broker and ship direct.

To sum up, Jon has many valid points, as do alot of the posters in these last couple threads. We have to try and work together as vendors as best as possible as well. And a solid working relationship, either business to business or consumer, is worth WAY more that the little bit of a discount you might get shopping around any day. There are many times that I pay a little more just to deal with someone that I have a good working relationship with, and sometimes there are headaches that come along with it but in the end it is a way better experience to be able to have some repor with that person!

And Jon, I hear our wheels turned out amazing.... I cannot wait! NewGen wheels rock!

[DriverzInc]

Simply.... well said. I agree with a lot you have to say.

[64pontiac]

You will be thoroughly disappointed if we all start lowering our costs to manufacter so that the parts are cheaper.

[Vegas69]

I think it's hard to sell the value of a quality vendor to the new crowd. It's no different than shopping for a TV or a loaf of bread in their mind. It goes back to my post about the internet and what modern times have done to business. It's let every Tom, Dick, and Harry compete and that means stupid low prices. It's forced businesses to run leaner. It's not going to change anytimje soon. People with money today are smarter. I hope Travis has figured out a way to have less overhead.

You mentioned raising your prices and losing customers. What customers did you lose? The customers you didn't make any money on in the first place? I've found with my business that my BEST customers are as loyal as the day is long. They refer to people just like them. I always tell the kid that works for me, "Pick your battles". If he's a grinder or not loyal, find a better customer.

[GregWeld]

Just think about all the vendors on all the forums that you've never read ANY post, EVER, about late shipping or hassles getting a refund.... There's way more of them than there are the ones you've read over and over about.

Everyone in business faces the same challenges. Price. Service. Competitors.

Just look to the left of this page and see all those banner ads... and ask yourself how many of them you've read bad stuff about. What are they doing differently? Are they competing? Are they on the Internet? Are they in a different economy? :unibrow:

[ord27]

I haven't started a build yet. I have owned a high end wakeboard or a ski boat most of my adult life. There are many online suppliers of boating toys and equipment. Instead of saving a few bucks ordering from one of these guys, I've always gone to my local dealer and bought from the pro shop.

Sure a wakeboard setup from them is a bit higher, but it keeps the local guy in business. If everyone did that, I wouldn't hear so much grumbling about marine service departments in other areas of the country. My dealer can hire the best service techs because he has a large, loyal customer base in all 3 aspects of his business: pro shop, service dept, and boat sales

[intocarss]

Very well said and very true Jon :thumbsup:

[Beegs]

Jon I feel for and understand what you are saying BUT.... in ANY business that has margin, people pile on and you get price erosion. It has always happened and always will.

I feel it with my apartments, haven't raised rents in almost ten years but my costs continue to go up. I feel it when I sell a load of topsoil. My father made more profit selling dirt in the 70's than I can today. EVERYONE has a truck, EVERYONE has machines...EVERYONE chops balls.

Price erosion.....it sucks.

De Beers ...now there is a business model! Are diamonds rare? My wife thinks so and that's all that matters....along with setting prices....lol

[sik68]

I can't say it any better than what everyone here before me has already said...and it is the internet's fault like Todd is saying.

Among the admirable vendors on the left side of the screen is DSE. I can draw so many parallels to Apple I won't waste my time, but they built a brand, focus on their products, prove it in the field, and stay off forums. Their price is their price...and although I don't own a single DSE product, it's a brand I aspire to buy "because it just works."

[Bucketlist2012]

Being in the service business almost 30 years, Quality Service, parts, and follow up are key.

I understand the mark up on parts....I did it....Always the good customers come back, over and over again..

Why when I go find a Killer shop to work on my car, would I try to barter down to near his wholesale price ? Sure to save money, but I will make it somewhere else and Pay the man for the parts and the Labor..

Sure i see what I can get them for, so as not to get ripped off, but to say to him, " I know you get it at cost, so what is my price ? " , to me is getting spit in my food....Get my drift ? I would not want to work on my Car...

Instead, I have a loyal relationship with a great Builder, and My job is to go make My money so I can pay him what he needs ..

It was always just under what I would pay retail so no biggie..

In my Trade, We are charging 1.2 times on parts, so a 50 dollar part is 110... I understand how it is.

[Blake Foster]

"re-think your manufacturing, and find away to make your product cheaper so you can lower retail across the board."

im building my first high end pro-t camaro, i am looking for quality and value in the parts i buy. when i first started looking at forged wheels i was shocked at the prices...i mean the wheels are made out of aluminum not platinum. lol

i looked at most of the different wheels out there and someone here on lat-g told me to check out pro wheels, which i did, their prices where about half of what other wheel builders are selling their wheels for granted they usually have a six week wait which i understand...good product with a great price will net you lots of business. the quality was first rate and my wheels are absolutely beautiful. i called prodigy to ask him about back spacing and felt obligated to to buy my wheels from him for giving me the back spacing dimensions (this was just before people started posting here they were having problems getting their parts from prodigy) i did get my wheels, although it took twice as long as it should have, i would have bought them direct from prowheels had frank not given me the back spacing...fortunately pro wheels is a great company and are re doing my front wheels because frank didn't give them the correct info on my brake set up and the front wheels were hitting the calipers.

i am running a full dse set up in my camaro, sub frame, quad link, subframe connectors wiper motor, mini tubs and other dse products as well as a bunch of other parts i needed for my build. i called dse and they will not budge on their list prices and i understand that they can't compete with their distributors, i ended up calling matts told them what i intended to buy for my car and asked what he could do for me if i ordered all my parts from him, he told me he would knock off 15% accross the board. my first order was 15k in parts, they were very knowledgeable, i felt it was win win for us both, i did get great service, great pricing, and fast delivery. so don't tell me you can't have all three. i will be making another order with them soon for 6 or 7 k to finish up my car and will do so with confidence...rm

Paragraph 1
As a manufacturer we (all manufacturers) try and reduce the cost or our parts, it is the only way to increase margin,(other than raising the price) but when we do lower the cost. don't expect to see a lower retail price. We are in business to MAKE MONEY. if you want cheep parts call CHINA, and no sorry i don't have the number.

Paragraph 3
You purchased the cheapest forged wheels you could. from the lowest price vendor.
They took twice as long to get as expected.
and didn't fit.
anything else.

i will go back to Jon's story about the Speedtech sub frame, this customer actually called Every dealer on the west coast, we ended up talking to all of them and quoting and figuring out the shipping to 6 different locations. and the guy still hasn't placed an order not the best way to LOWER YOUR COSTS.10 guys dealers &manufacturer) quoting on 1 sub frame to make 300 bucks???? (that is how low the price was driven not the normal margin BTW)

I would love it if all the dealers stuck to the price sheet. We were having this talk just yesterday, We just finished redoing our pricelist and spent weeks working out cost, dealer cost, retail and margins and comparing competators offerings and we price our product to sell at full retail. We could mark it way up and give everyone a discount build in huge margins for the dealers and have them discount the parts all day long, but that is not the approach we took.
Speedtech is the same as DSE in that we do not discount the pricing of the product so as not to compete with the dealers, lets hope some of them are also reading this.
The most important thing in business is to make MONEY, you all get up everymorning and go to work to MAKE MONEY how many of you would do it "Just For the love of it" not many I'm betting.
We strive to provide high quality parts, great Service and good availability, all while making a profit. and you know what sometimes the stars don't all line up. We do try tho.

[bret]

" Courier New"]Back in the day, you had to have a brick and mortar location to become a dealer for some manufacturers. Now, you can buy Ridetech from a dude sitting at a laptop in his boxers in the comfort of his own living room just cuz he has a website. Hell, I’ve even caught manufactures selling product direct for less then what dealer cost is?? WTF is that about? That just isn’t ethical to me." [/I]

Jon...just trying to clarify...are you saying that you have seen RideTech sell product direct at less than retail price? Or are you saying that Some RideTech dealers may be mostly internet based?...or are you saying both?

[camcojb]

OK, I edited the original post. I don't want to lock the thread. The frustrations and info regarding this industry, vendors, and customers is great. But let's keep individual company names out of it. Everyone still gets the point and most know who the edited name is anyway. This way hopefully the thread stays constructive instead of turning into a cluster that has to be locked.

[Track Junky]

Truth of the matter....it is dog eat dog out there right now. I talk to fellow contractors every once in awhile when picking up materials and it's the same old story everywhere...there's always someone out there to do it for less. I personally stick to my guns with my prices. Quality and customer service has allowed me to have repeat clientel and get referrals. I've learned that If I allow myself to take a job for no or low profit the product I deliver suffers. Is this what I want when someone walks in to this prior customers home and asks who did the work? Of course not. Lesson learned!!

My motto, honesty and hard work will get you moving forward. Listen to your gut and God willing, you'll pay your bills, feed your family, and with todays economy, if your lucky be able to make a little extra. The only thing being in business for yourself can promise you today is the freedom to do it your way.

We all make mistakes one time or another but lesson's learned from prior experiences should allow you to forsee and choose how to maneuver forward with your new business and next customer. Stick to your guns, provide quality service in a timely manner, and thats all you can do.

I personally wish the best for you in your new venture. Good Luck!! :thumbsup:

[dhutton]

Just wondering how many folks here pay full MSRP when they buy a new car...

Don

[NewGenWheels]

" Courier New"]Back in the day, you had to have a brick and mortar location to become a dealer for some manufacturers. Now, you can buy Ridetech from a dude sitting at a laptop in his boxers in the comfort of his own living room just cuz he has a website. Hell, I’ve even caught manufactures selling product direct for less then what dealer cost is?? WTF is that about? That just isn’t ethical to me." [/I]

Jon...just trying to clarify...are you saying that you have seen RideTech sell product direct at less than retail price? Or are you saying that Some RideTech dealers may be mostly internet based?...or are you saying both?

No Bret, its just to get the POINT across. I will however say that some dealers are mainly internet based, you and I both know that is true though.

And to be clear: I said I've even caught "manufactures" selling for less then dealer cost not you specifically. How did I do it? I called them and pretended to be a retail customer, and they priced me out at 15% back from what retail is on their website.

And how did I price match my competitors? I did the same thing. I called them, or had Justin call them from his cell phone, and pretend to be a retail customer, and got 15% off brand X without even trying.

To everyone reading my midnight thoughts, read it as this: Look for the underlying theme, and think about what the point is, and take something away from it that is constructive. Maybe the next time you go to buy a part you'll think about who your spending your money with, and what you are going to get in return from that transaction. And please, PLEASE, have some integrity and some loyalty to the guy working his arse off for you. If you spent countless hours working with him on backspace for your wheels, don't turn around and call wheels for less .com to buy them for 50 bucks cheaper. (As an example, and you can apply it as you see fit).

Todd, I did, and still do have very loyal customers. The business that was lost was to new guys, who found us on the web, or met us at a show, and then called in to price match us. We lost those bidding wars, but they didn't hesitate to take all the free tech info Justin and I could dish out until we were blue in the face.

Thanks for letting me speak my mind Lat-G. I plan to take more of the DSE route myself from here on in as NewGen.

:lateral: :cheers:

[Matt@BOS]

i am running a full dse set up in my camaro, sub frame, quad link, subframe connectors wiper motor, mini tubs and other dse products as well as a bunch of other parts i needed for my build. i called dse and they will not budge on their list prices and i understand that they can't compete with their distributors, i ended up calling matts told them what i intended to buy for my car and asked what he could do for me if i ordered all my parts from him, he told me he would knock off 15% accross the board. my first order was 15k in parts, they were very knowledgeable, i felt it was win win for us both, i did get great service, great pricing, and fast delivery. so don't tell me you can't have all three. i will be making another order with them soon for 6 or 7 k to finish up my car and will do so with confidence...rm

As someone that has a number of close relationships with companies on this forum, I'm slightly removed from this, since parts aren't paying my bills. However, I do know what is going on, and I hope that if I say it, maybe a few business owners won't have to, because this isn't exactly pretty, or nice, and I'm sure they would rather not have to say it themselves.

First, I'm glad you got a good deal. I remember the first time I purchased expensive 3 piece wheels. It was from Jon at Driverz about four years ago. I bought them because he was running a sale, and he was semi-local to me so that I could pick them up. That was important to me. Had Jon not been around, I probably would have purchased from Frank, which would have been $200ish cheaper. Glad I didn't and not because I would be worried about Frank's business practices. I'm glad I bought from Jon because he has been willing to stay late at the shop waiting for me, mount and balance countless tires, some of which I didn't even buy from him, oh yeah, and he put me up at his house for a night so that we could trailer my car up to SEMA, leaving at 3am, using his truck and trailer. I almost hate to think that is all because I spent $200 more on my first order. Hell, that almost seems like I've taken advantage of him in a criminal way. For that level of service I should have paid retail plus (a lot).

Ratman You probably don't realize it, so please don't construe this as me calling you out for doing something wrong, because you haven't really done anything wrong, but this exact scenario is what is killing dealers like Jon, or any of the others on this site. DSE doesn't offer a big profit margin to dealers who sell at retail. AT RETAIL. DSE supports their vendors, not by refusing to undercut them, but rather by attempting to keep prices even, no matter if you're buying directly from DSE or through their dealer network. That is something I hated about DSE at first, but have come to respect immensely. I can't believe Matt's took 15 percent off for you. You might have gotten a great deal, and the pricing cut probably won't affect you. However, that pricing cut directly affects the vendors mentioned in this thread. As Jon said earlier, it sets this precedent that everyone now needs to sell for 10-15 percent off with free shipping, etc. This is the real life example of the dealer making $350 on the $7000 subframe. Not only that, it affects all of the shops like Ironworks, or HPI or Best of Show, just to name a few - the shops who build cars, but who have also established dealer status with manufacturers. These shops are small outfits that are dealers primarily because they have built well made cars, and often manufactures make them dealers because they know the manufacturer's product inside and out, and represent it well in magazines, or at shows like Good Guys, or SEMA. These small shops never set out to make a living selling parts, they set out to make a living building cars. They can't compete on pricing because it isn't worth their while. In many cases, they don't even care if you buy parts from them anymore because the profit margin is too small. When they factor in the cost of their time, it just isn't worth it. That might not seem like it will affect the end customer, but it does. Hell it also affects the manufacturer. For example, if a customer is having a car built at a shop, and they are dealers for DSE, and have installed plenty of DSE subframes, but the customer decides to install a Morrison subframe because it was cheaper. Well, by the time that Morrison subframe goes into the car with the engine and headers, etc, it might end up costing more because of the time the shop spent figuring out how to install it. That is just an example of how cross shopping or finding the "best" deal, isn't always the cheapest in the end. In the same scenario, if the customer buys a DSE frame from someone other than the installer, then what is the point of the installer being a dealer for DSE. In the future they might not sell as much DSE product, and when it comes time for a customer to have the latest and greatest DSE product installed, it will take more hours for the shop to install it because they aren't familiar with it. You better bet that cost gets passed on to the customer. As for how that affects the manufacturer... Earlier I wrote that a lot of shops attained dealer status because a manufacturer wanted them to be. If the shops have no incentive to run the manufacturers products, then it hurts the manufacturer.

Matt

[68protouring454]

great post jon!!!
Non of us are perfect, however with that said beating prices further and further down doesn't help anyone but the end consumer, and thats ONLY when he gets his parts on time.
Nothing better then a customer who wants to do business with you, doesn't care about discount(not that he is going to overpay, but knows going prices) and just expects on time delivery and support.
great thoughts!!

[Bryce]

You will be thoroughly disappointed if we all start lowering our costs to manufacter so that the parts are cheaper.

I work for an aerospace company as a test engineer but we are very versed in lean manufacturing. There are always ways to continuously improve and remove waste from any process, sometimes it means buying new equipment sometimes it means moving around less and co-locating certain operations. There are always wasy to make things take less time therefore less cost and less parts and materials on the shelf. Which will help overhead and cashflow.

Jon, GREAT post!

[Ron in SoCal]

To everyone reading my midnight thoughts, read it as this: Look for the underlying theme, and think about what the point is, and take something away from it that is constructive. Maybe the next time you go to buy a part you'll think about who your spending your money with, and what you are going to get in return from that transaction. And please, PLEASE, have some integrity and some loyalty to the guy working his arse off for you. If you spent countless hours working with him on backspace for your wheels, don't turn around and call wheels for less .com to buy them for 50 bucks cheaper. (As an example, and you can apply it as you see fit).

Thanks for letting me speak my mind Lat-G. I plan to take more of the DSE route myself from here on in as NewGen.

:lateral: :cheers:

Jon the part I quoted is probably the best thought out, most articulate thing you've written in this thread. Although there is a certain amount of cost/benefit discussion that will take place with any customer, NO ONE should milk a vendor for free tech and turn around and take the business elsewhere.

Conversely, no customer wants to hear vendors complain about the deal that didn't go their way. It sucks for sure, but is also a part of our world today. Vendors need to have a unique value propostion that will attract and retain customers. I know Jon has brand loyalty with many. The challenge is to create that realtionship with all even though it is next to impossible. :cheers:

[Stuart Adams]

If I were a vendor or a dealer I would be very upset at Dealers that hold others money to pay for parts ordered before. THAT is the real problem.

Think about it, if the bad dealer is selling parts at cost then the other dealers are not selling at all because of this ploy. Bad dealer doesnt need a profit because he is using this current money minus his cut to pay for the previous orders. That is what is killing the ethical dealers. Profit on the order is NOT the way BAD dealer makes money.

[NewGenWheels]

If I were a vendor or a dealer I would be very upset at Dealers that hold others money to pay for parts ordered before. THAT is the real problem.

Think about it, if the bad dealer is selling parts at cost then the other dealers are not selling at all because of this ploy. Bad dealer doesnt need a profit because he is using this current money minus his cut to pay for the previous orders. That is what is killing the ethical dealers. Profit on the order is NOT the way BAD dealer makes money.

ding ding ding... exactly.

[bret]

To be clear: RideTech DOES NOT molest the retail price. Ever. Not for any person, Not for any reason. And we never have. And I don't intend to.

By federal law we cannot dictate the price that anyone else sells at. I wish we could. We can only influence that scenario by maintaining the integrity of the retail / dealer / distributor price levels.

I totally agree that discounting is a fatal race to the bottom. It is a disease that will eventually consume the discounter.

How does a manufacturer police this? I don't know. I wish I did.

Internet based dealers are another problem. Some are good...some are not. Before the internet we had these same comments about mail order companies...with the same results.

When asked about the best place to buy, my recommendation is ALWAYS:

"Buy from whomever gives you accurate, reliable and relevant information about your impending purchase and overall project."

[Vegas69]

I can't say it any better than what everyone here before me has already said...and it is the internet's fault like Todd is saying.

Among the admirable vendors on the left side of the screen is DSE. I can draw so many parallels to Apple I won't waste my time, but they built a brand, focus on their products, prove it in the field, and stay off forums. Their price is their price...and although I don't own a single DSE product, it's a brand I aspire to buy "because it just works."

:yes: :yes:

[markss28]

Ok, so reading this I feel yea your right about keeping cost as they should be but what about the difference between buying a 18x10 wheel and an 18x12? Some Manufacturers up the price by $400 a wheel just because of the size of the hoop. Is 2" of aluminum that much more expensive or is it more difficult to make? Also some companies sell control arm sets for under $800 and others for about $1,300. Is there a real difference in the building or quality of parts?

I do agree that everyone should know there budget and keep to it but would like more options in the way of those that are more budget minded.

[NewGenWheels]

Ok, so reading this I feel yea your right about keeping cost as they should be but what about the difference between buying a 18x10 wheel and an 18x12? Some Manufacturers up the price by $400 a wheel just because of the size of the hoop. Is 2" of aluminum that much more expensive or is it more difficult to make? Also some companies sell control arm sets for under $800 and others for about $1,300. Is there a real difference in the building or quality of parts?

I do agree that everyone should know there budget and keep to it but would like more options in the way of those that are more budget minded.

Lets chalk that up to you probably don't know what it takes to make an 18x12 two piece.

First, you can't buy an 18x12 outer hoop. They only come up to 10". So the process is as follows. We have to take two, 18x10s, half them, weld them togther to create one 18x12. It takes a special fixture, and a welder to do this so that the two halves mate, and still run true, which means no more than .0030 out of round. Then, that now 18x12 needs to be ground down, and polished to perfection. Then, you can install your center. So essentially, twice the work, twice the material, and that equates to the up charge of 4-500 bucks per wheel to do it. Did you know, that after cost analysis, that is actually COST for the manufacturer to do it?? Yeah, all that work and he didn't make anything but the customer happy.

Still think it doesn't make sense? ;)

[NewGenWheels]

Just wondering how many folks here pay full MSRP when they buy a new car...

Don

I can tell you last time I walked on to the lot manufacturers are advertising a "no hassle" sale price.

And besides, I'm talking about aftermarket parts, not cars dude. Profit margin on parts is a totally different game. Your that guy that thinks that parts stores are making a killing, aren't you? You obviously didn't learn anything from the OP.

Lets compare apples to apples shall we?

[youthpastor]

wow...great input and laying all the cards on the table!

Blake is right- I was one of the dealers that got caught in the "price war" on a subframe. I learned my lesson- STICK TO THE PRICE SHEET. After a little investigation (we are an installing dealer, not an online parts sales department) The guy was doing a Pontiac engine and trans. Simple question, "What are you doing for headers? I have these really expensive headers I "think" will work with the rack. Probably not, and when they don't who is he going to rant about? Me...Matt's... Speedtech- who knows. but he chose price over service and taught me a lesson- stick to the price sheet.

We do a little general automotive and the parts mark-up is 1.65 and up. If I was in this for the $$ I would blow out all the PT customers and do brakes and service all day long. Trying to make $$ on hot rod parts is hard. Just jump in your car and run down to your local speed shop...oh there isn't one.


The reason I do hot rods is because I love the build, It pays my bills, and like Mr. Weld says. The people are really cool. - Chris:lateral:

[Payton King]

has to do with the long standing business model of the industry. I think Jon or someone else metioned it earlier, higher price with discounts.

I could counter that with when is the last time you called to haggle the price of your electric bill or did the same thing at the grocery store?

[realcoray]

Lately I think I'm realizing that for any service type company, the vast majority of them in a given industry are pretty much completely terrible as far as customer service goes.

When even my brother was in the parts/cars business, I got pretty much the same service level from him as around half of the vendors of lat-g I've bought from, which is to say far less than ideal.

It's the same with pretty much every other industry I interact with, a common one even cited here is contractors, but I've so far this year had similar poor experiences with real estate agents, bankers etc.

As Greg noted, there are a lot of vendors that you never hear bad things about and that's usually a good sign. I think a number of those vendors have also shown (as have leaders in other industries) that you don't need cut throat pricing, and that people will pay for quality products and service.

[jocko124]

Lately I think I'm realizing that for any service type company, the vast majority of them in a given industry are pretty much completely terrible as far as customer service goes.

When even my brother was in the parts/cars business, I got pretty much the same service level from him as around half of the vendors of lat-g I've bought from, which is to say far less than ideal.

It's the same with pretty much every other industry I interact with, a common one even cited here is contractors, but I've so far this year had similar poor experiences with real estate agents, bankers etc.

As Greg noted, there are a lot of vendors that you never hear bad things about and that's usually a good sign. I think a number of those vendors have also shown (as have leaders in other industries) that you don't need cut throat pricing, and that people will pay for quality products and service.

Very well said. I think a lot of customers are more than willing to pay extra for great customer service and products. I think SC&C, Kore3, and HPI are great examples of this.

[dhutton]

I can tell you last time I walked on to the lot manufacturers are advertising a "no hassle" sale price.

And besides, I'm talking about aftermarket parts, not cars dude. Profit margin on parts is a totally different game. Your that guy that thinks that parts stores are making a killing, aren't you? You obviously didn't learn anything from the OP.

Lets compare apples to apples shall we?

No I'm not that guy. And I'm also not that guy who calls up vendors for free tech. I do my own research without bothering vendors with questions I can usually find answers to on this website or others. If not I'll post up a question on the forum and usually get great answers from fellow members. Most I ever do is call up a manufacturer when a spec is not clear.

The only vendor I ever talked with extensively was Mark Savitske and that was because he couldn't stop talking. :lol: And he did get an order...

Don

[dhutton]

has to do with the long standing business model of the industry. I think Jon or someone else metioned it earlier, higher price with discounts.

I could counter that with when is the last time you called to haggle the price of your electric bill or did the same thing at the grocery store?

Well I do shop for groceries where the prices are low and I also chose an electicity provider with a low rate.

I never haggle with parts vendors over the price of their parts. I simply check their website. If it's not listed I take a minute of their time to call and ask. No haggling involved...

Anyway, I put that question out there for the folks who think that I should be blindly paying MSRP. Sorry, I'm just not programmed that way. Sure, sometimes I do pay it if it makes sense but no way do I do it every time just because someone thinks it is the right thing to do.

Flame suit on,
Don

[DRJDVM's '69]

It's not just the car business..... The Walmart effect is everywhere.... Even in veterinary medicine. More and more "low cost" clinics are popping up. The "bread and butter" stuff like spays, vaccines, flea products etc that used to decent profit generators are all going to low cost clinic, the Internet, Costco or Walmart. Those profit centers allowed me to keep my other services reasonably priced. Now my other services have to dramatically up to offset those lost income source

The low cost places do surgeries at prices I wouldn't even brake even on let alone make a profit. How do they do it? By keeping their overhead as low as possible.... Lowest paid labor, cheapest faculty, cheapest supplies... They cut corners.... It's the only way

Saw one 2 weeks ago.... That $100 dog neuter ended up costing you $500 after I had to fix the crappy job they did

So I either stick to my principles and know I will lose clients that focus solely on price.... Which is fine since I wouldn't make any profit anyway.... Or I sink to the low cost client level

The fact is that the top 20% of you customers generate 80% of your income... Focus on those 20% and offer them stellar service. So you can deal with 3 customers that make you $100 profit on each or one customer that makes you a $300 profit... You decide which is the business you want to run

How many of you buy your pets medication online now or at Costco? Do you know how many prescription I write so the owner can buy the medication somewhere else?

[andrewb70]

It's not just the car business..... The Walmart effect is everywhere.... Even in veterinary medicine. More and more "low cost" clinics are popping up. The "bread and butter" stuff like spays, vaccines, flea products etc that used to decent profit generators are all going to low cost clinic, the Internet, Costco or Walmart. Those profit centers allowed me to keep my other services reasonably priced. Now my other services have to dramatically up to offset those lost income source

The low cost places do surgeries at prices I wouldn't even brake even on let alone make a profit. How do they do it? By keeping their overhead as low as possible.... Lowest paid labor, cheapest faculty, cheapest supplies... They cut corners.... It's the only way

So I either stick to my principles and know I will lose clients that focus solely on price.... Which is fine since I wouldn't make any profit anyway.... Or I sink to the low cost client level

The fact is that the top 20% of you customers generate 80% of your income... Focus on those 20% and offer them stellar service

How many of you buy your pets medication online now or at Costco? Do you know how many prescription I write so the owner can buy the medication somewhere else?

These are excellent point. I made a similar comment in another thread here.

Every company listed on the left needs to figure out who their customers are. There are plenty of ways to make money at the top and at the bottom. Every individual has their own perception of value and it means different things to different people. Some people value price above all else, others value shocks and wheels that look like jewelry, at any price.

Every company on the left also needs to consider that this industry, overall, is shrinking. When you combine a shrinking market, with a slow economy, you have business conditions that are very tough. The only way to stay competitive is through the development of new, innovative products and services. It is the only way to keep your products from being commoditised. When you are the only company, selling a product, that satisfies the needs of your customers, price will no longer be a big factor.

Andrew

[John510]

When you shop, take into account this VERY important rule. There are three things everyone wants out of any transaction:

1: Price

2; Customer Service

3: Time Frame

Pick two of the three, that’s all you’ll ever get.




Some vendors can do all three :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Cmon Jon your wheels are priced good, Your customer service is good (I did call you 1000000000 times sorry), and Im sure you can make your wheels on time. So there you got all 3

[GregWeld]

I can tell you how we made CUSTOMERS and held PRICES -- we actually made the dealers carry inventory. Lots of it - or they weren't dealers. When you own the inventory - you can DELIVER - and you have a dealer with integrity and financial wherewithal.

Obviously that isn't possible in some of the lines we're talking about... nobody could carry all the wheels with all the variables... But that's how I did it when I ran a multimillion dollar (like 100 million in sales per year) business... No inventory investment - no dealer.

I've bought stuff from Frank -- got it within days (back when) NFW I'd buy anything now. Not taking that chance. We're friends. But that stops at the wallet.

I've bought stuff from DSE -- Got my stuff within DAYS

I've bought stuff from Muscle Rodz -- Ditto

I've bought stuff from Morrison -- Ditto

I've bought stuff from The Shop LLC -- Ditto

I've bought stuff from Ring Brothers -- Ditto

If I've read ONE THREAD about non delivery -- chalk that up to a bad "something" -- If I've read repeatedly over and over about some vendor regardless of the excuse laden posts I'm not buying anything from that guy period no way, no how, ever... I remember the old "caveat emptor" -- let the buyer beware.

[96z28ss]

I can tell you how we made CUSTOMERS and held PRICES -- we actually made the dealers carry inventory. Lots of it - or they weren't dealers. When you own the inventory - you can DELIVER - and you have a dealer with integrity and financial wherewithal.

Obviously that isn't possible in some of the lines we're talking about... nobody could carry all the wheels with all the variables... But that's how I did it when I ran a multimillion dollar (like 100 million in sales per year) business... No inventory investment - no dealer.

I've bought stuff from Frank -- got it within days (back when) NFW I'd buy anything now. Not taking that chance. We're friends. But that stops at the wallet.

I've bought stuff from DSE -- Got my stuff within DAYS

I've bought stuff from Muscle Rodz -- Ditto

I've bought stuff from Morrison -- Ditto

I've bought stuff from The Shop LLC -- Ditto

I've bought stuff from Ring Brothers -- Ditto

If I've read ONE THREAD about non delivery -- chalk that up to a bad "something" -- If I've read repeatedly over and over about some vendor regardless of the excuse laden posts I'm not buying anything from that guy period no way, no how, ever... I remember the old "caveat emptor" -- let the buyer beware.

Exactly, Summit and Jegs already carry Fesler and Ring Brother stuff. They stock there shelves with it. As soon as THEY start carrying subframes and more pro-touring type stuff. I wouldn't even try to compete. You can get stuff in 2 days with them.

[GeoffP]

Jon - I know this has already been said but, "WELL SAID"

Had you not already earned my respect two year ago when I bought 2 Nitto NT05's from you, you certainly did with your post(s). I wish you well in your new wheel manufacturing venture - you have moved your business to the top of a very short list of vendors I would even consider buying from when the time comes for new wheels.

THANK YOU!!

[DRJDVM's '69]

With some of the stuff from summit and jegs the parts get shipped from the actual company... I was looking at some fesler stuff on summit and the ship date was a week later.... Bought it straight from fesler and it shipped in 36 hours. I've had that with ARP stuff too... So Summit doesnt stock everything they sell... Sometimes they are just the middle man

But most of my summit stuff shows up in 24-36 hours... Can't beat that

[Blake Foster]

Exactly, Summit and Jegs already carry Fesler and Ring Brother stuff. They stock there shelves with it. As soon as THEY start carrying subframes and more pro-touring type stuff. I wouldn't even try to compete. You can get stuff in 2 days with them.

Jegs does carry Subframes and Torque arms, and headers. but don't think they are giving it away. it is priced at retail, they have the price list and they stick to it. why is that?
Why would the guy who is the biggest, has THE MOST SALES sell it for the most money??? isn't that opposite of what we are talking about here. do you think they make money on the products they sell.
Do people buy from them? and PAY MORE, WHAT???
oh but don't expect to call up and get TECH advise. Price Quality Service Pick 2
Who woud benifet if everyone did that? Everyone would.
just sayin.

[Vegas69]

I know, I know....:D

You have a rock solid reputation for delivering on time and you make so much money that you could care less if you sell another part.:unibrow:

[Blake Foster]

I know, I know....:D

You have a rock solid reputation for delivering on time and you make so much money that you could care less if you sell another part.:unibrow:



???? is this to me ??? maybe i'm missing something

[Neil B]

I can directly relate to Jon's frustrations, I've got competitors selling at a loss in order to get their foot in the door on long-term contracts. Pick any industry you want...this is just business in today's world. I can service my customers until I'm blue in the face and, at the end of the day, they procure through a vendor-neutral process based on cost and ability to meet requirements. In some cases, they don't even know who the vendor is because of the internal process they are required to follow. But the winning combination is still client service/relationships and the ability to repeatedly deliver on-time and with quality at a competitive price point via whatever mechanism the client desires. The days of an easy, non-competitive sale at huge margins are over. There's a time and a place to sell at little or no margin if it makes sense stategically, but at this stage you're swimming with the sharks so you better be prepared to swim.

[Vegas69]

???? is this to me ??? maybe i'm missing something

Talking about Jegs. They have enough business where they don't need to discount.

[Blake Foster]

Talking about Jegs. They have enough business where they don't need to discount.

Got it .
But don't you think it is interesting that if they don't discount, they make the most margin, , have the parts in stock (most of the time) and have the most customers then become the biggest.

[96z28ss]

i just searched summit. 1969 camaro subframe.
All I got was a factory replacement AMD subframe $899 retail its $999
Ships today!

How can the AMD dealers compete with that? I don't think you can unless you stock inventory.

[DRJDVM's '69]

On thing that strikes me when this type of topic comes up...we are all alittle hypocritical.....

We ALL buy stuff online....ebay, amazon, craigslist
We ALL shop at the big box stores like Target, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes
We ALL eat at the chain restaurants like Applebees, Olive Garden, Pizza Hut
We all buy stuff from Summit and Jegs, Tire Rack, Enco, Grainger etc etc....

We dont go to the local "mom and pop" hardware store (when they used to exist) even when the service was way way better...but the prices were alittle higher...

We dont go to the local owned restaurant even when the food and service are better...

We go to Dominos or Little Ceasar's pizza since they have 2 for 1 deals...even when the pizza sucks compared to the local "no name" pizza joint...

We go to Taco Bell to get 99 cent tacos rather than to the local mexican restaurant

We go to the cheapest gas stations even though the place is a dump, the pumps suck and the bathrooms should be condemned

We are ALL guilty of eroding the sense of looking for the value in an item or service rather than just the price....we are all guilty of locking in on the price as the most important in 9 out of 10 situations

Its not until it affects our profession or has a direct impact on our own ability to make a living that we get pissed off.... me included

[cencalc6]

Jegs does carry Subframes and Torque arms, and headers. but don't think they are giving it away. it is priced at retail, they have the price list and they stick to it. why is that? .

JEGS: Lowest Prices Guaranteed!! I've bought alot of items from Jegs and they will definetly match a lower price. :D

[Flash68]

On thing that strikes me when this type of topic comes up...we are all alittle hypocritical.....

We ALL buy stuff online....ebay, amazon, craigslist
We ALL shop at the big box stores like Target, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes
We ALL eat at the chain restaurants like Applebees, Olive Garden, Pizza Hut
We all buy stuff from Summit and Jegs, Tire Rack, Enco, Grainger etc etc....

We dont go to the local "mom and pop" hardware store (when they used to exist) even when the service was way way better...but the prices were alittle higher...

We dont go to the local owned restaurant even when the food and service are better...

We go to Dominos or Little Ceasar's pizza since they have 2 for 1 deals...even when the pizza sucks compared to the local "no name" pizza joint...

We go to Taco Bell to get 99 cent tacos rather than to the local mexican restaurant

We go to the cheapest gas stations even though the place is a dump, the pumps suck and the bathrooms should be condemned

We are ALL guilty of eroding the sense of looking for the value in an item or service rather than just the price....we are all guilty of locking in on the price as the most important in 9 out of 10 situations

Its not until it affects our profession or has a direct impact on our own ability to make a living that we get pissed off.... me included

Good post Ned. And I agree .. all except the chain food stuff. I don't eat that crap. It's gross and unhealthy and I eat good local food. Have you not seen the Fast Food Nation movie or book? :lol:

But you're right. Since when do we as consumers owe it to certain companies or vendors their profit to feed their family? I've run a small business for 7 years now... and I don't EXPECT anyone to put food on my table to buy my car parts. That sense of entitlement don't sit well with me. I either compete in my marketplace and make the sales and get repeat business, or I find new customers to backfill old ones, or I don't... and I shut it down and do something else.

Entrepreneurs are not guaranteed profits. They put up risk capital to potentially make more than the guy who has a "secure" job working for some other entrepreneur or company.

Business landscapes and marketplaces constantly are changing.... new technologies.... new competitors.... Al Gore's internet.... many things have small and large impacts. That's not new. The people who make it and push forward don't sit around and complain about it. They GET IT DONE!

[Bryce]

On thing that strikes me when this type of topic comes up...we are all alittle hypocritical.....

We ALL buy stuff online....ebay, amazon, craigslist
We ALL shop at the big box stores like Target, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes
We ALL eat at the chain restaurants like Applebees, Olive Garden, Pizza Hut
We all buy stuff from Summit and Jegs, Tire Rack, Enco, Grainger etc etc....

We dont go to the local "mom and pop" hardware store (when they used to exist) even when the service was way way better...but the prices were alittle higher...

We dont go to the local owned restaurant even when the food and service are better...

We go to Dominos or Little Ceasar's pizza since they have 2 for 1 deals...even when the pizza sucks compared to the local "no name" pizza joint...

We go to Taco Bell to get 99 cent tacos rather than to the local mexican restaurant

We go to the cheapest gas stations even though the place is a dump, the pumps suck and the bathrooms should be condemned

We are ALL guilty of eroding the sense of looking for the value in an item or service rather than just the price....we are all guilty of locking in on the price as the most important in 9 out of 10 situations

Its not until it affects our profession or has a direct impact on our own ability to make a living that we get pissed off.... me included

Good points

I work part time at the last REAL hardware store in san diego.
I only buy good pizza
I only drink micro brew

But I still look for the best price on most things.

Another example. McMasterCarr has excellent inventory, great tech, and are usually the most expensive. But they have a one stop shop so one doesnt need to spend 10 hours searching the net.

[Neil B]

Its not until it affects our profession or has a direct impact on our own ability to make a living that we get pissed off.... me included

Exactly. No one gets upset when CVS sells milk as a loss leader to get you in the store to buy other stuff. So, if a vendor's model is to sell wheels on low margin and then provide service to sell you everything else you need to finish the car, then good for him.

[Vegas69]

On thing that strikes me when this type of topic comes up...we are all alittle hypocritical.....

We ALL buy stuff online....ebay, amazon, craigslist
We ALL shop at the big box stores like Target, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes
We ALL eat at the chain restaurants like Applebees, Olive Garden, Pizza Hut
We all buy stuff from Summit and Jegs, Tire Rack, Enco, Grainger etc etc....

We dont go to the local "mom and pop" hardware store (when they used to exist) even when the service was way way better...but the prices were alittle higher...

We dont go to the local owned restaurant even when the food and service are better...

We go to Dominos or Little Ceasar's pizza since they have 2 for 1 deals...even when the pizza sucks compared to the local "no name" pizza joint...

We go to Taco Bell to get 99 cent tacos rather than to the local mexican restaurant

We go to the cheapest gas stations even though the place is a dump, the pumps suck and the bathrooms should be condemned

We are ALL guilty of eroding the sense of looking for the value in an item or service rather than just the price....we are all guilty of locking in on the price as the most important in 9 out of 10 situations

Its not until it affects our profession or has a direct impact on our own ability to make a living that we get pissed off.... me included

Speak for your self:lol:

[camcojb]

On thing that strikes me when this type of topic comes up...we are all alittle hypocritical.....

We ALL buy stuff online....ebay, amazon, craigslist
We ALL shop at the big box stores like Target, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes
We ALL eat at the chain restaurants like Applebees, Olive Garden, Pizza Hut
We all buy stuff from Summit and Jegs, Tire Rack, Enco, Grainger etc etc....

We dont go to the local "mom and pop" hardware store (when they used to exist) even when the service was way way better...but the prices were alittle higher...

We dont go to the local owned restaurant even when the food and service are better...

We go to Dominos or Little Ceasar's pizza since they have 2 for 1 deals...even when the pizza sucks compared to the local "no name" pizza joint...

We go to Taco Bell to get 99 cent tacos rather than to the local mexican restaurant

We go to the cheapest gas stations even though the place is a dump, the pumps suck and the bathrooms should be condemned

We are ALL guilty of eroding the sense of looking for the value in an item or service rather than just the price....we are all guilty of locking in on the price as the most important in 9 out of 10 situations

Its not until it affects our profession or has a direct impact on our own ability to make a living that we get pissed off.... me included

I think you're correct for the majority of America. For me personally, I only do three of the nine examples you gave. Then again, I'm a weirdo. :lol:

[DOOM]

On thing that strikes me when this type of topic comes up...we are all alittle hypocritical.....

We ALL buy stuff online....ebay, amazon, craigslist
We ALL shop at the big box stores like Target, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes
We ALL eat at the chain restaurants like Applebees, Olive Garden, Pizza Hut
We all buy stuff from Summit and Jegs, Tire Rack, Enco, Grainger etc etc....

We dont go to the local "mom and pop" hardware store (when they used to exist) even when the service was way way better...but the prices were alittle higher...

We dont go to the local owned restaurant even when the food and service are better...

We go to Dominos or Little Ceasar's pizza since they have 2 for 1 deals...even when the pizza sucks compared to the local "no name" pizza joint...

We go to Taco Bell to get 99 cent tacos rather than to the local mexican restaurant

We go to the cheapest gas stations even though the place is a dump, the pumps suck and the bathrooms should be condemned

We are ALL guilty of eroding the sense of looking for the value in an item or service rather than just the price....we are all guilty of locking in on the price as the most important in 9 out of 10 situations

Its not until it affects our profession or has a direct impact on our own ability to make a living that we get pissed off.... me included

Ned great obsevation! Being in small buisness my wife and I go out of our way to frequent all the small buisness we can. I will say this you will never see a Walmart item in my house!!I would'nt give a sh^t if they were giving there crap away!!!!!Oh and never to the franchise pizza either or the Mexican food:D

[DRJDVM's '69]

There are always exceptions to the rule, but i think for the majority of the "average households" the observations hold true...and ALL of us at least do some of the examples

I do think that the guy that owns and runs his own business (or at least has a vested interest inthe company)has a different mind set. They think of things differently...its like a business karma. When they do business somewhere, they actually think of WHO is getting their business and who it really benefits...and the true value of who you do business with. They dont focus soleley on the price of the item that they walk out the door with

Most people dont think that way....and the majority wins and sets the landscape of business.

I've played both sides of the fence... I've shopped extensively to get the obsolute best price on an item and couldnt care less on who it came from....and I've done business with people that I trust and like and can count on and paid more for something I could have gotten for less

Customer service before and after the sale are great...and for some items they are paramount...but for others they play no role at all..... if i can buy a case of Mobil 1 oil at Walmart for $10 cheaper than at Autozone, why wouldnt I do that?

If I'm getting Lasik eye surgery, I'm sure as hell not picking the guy with the coupon in the penny saver :)

The general focus on bottomline price isnt going anywhere....its the big reason why the USA hardly actually makes anything anymore....adapt to the landscape or perish......

Focus on getting the customer the best value...... DSE is a great example...offer a good product and excellent support and exposure in the market....do it at firm non-negotiable higher prices but back up every penny the customer spends with you.

You cant offer dirt cheap prices on everything and great customer support and stay in business unless you are really big and have other profit centers ....and conversely you cant sell top of the line stuff and huge prices and do a ****ty job supporting your customer.

[randy]

Im always looking for a great deal too. I could have saved a few hundreds over the thousands of dollars ive spent at firewheel classics by buying from a online site. Thing is they were close and i could just go pick it up. Im willing to pay extra for quality. All in all most of the price shopping i have done well everyone has been around the same price. I end up going with who i feel the most comfortable with. Might not be the cheapest or the most expensive.

[randy]

O and find me someone who has in stock ready to ship marquez billet tail lights for a 67 camaro rs ready to go. Post on here and when i get back from my date with my wife ill send you the money

[redfire69]

O and find me someone who has in stock ready to ship marquez billet tail lights for a 67 camaro rs ready to go. Post on here and when i get back from my date with my wife ill send you the money

Marquez has them in stock on their website...


Back on topic, I enjoyed reading the OP. :thumbsup:

[HIFLYR]

I can tell you last time I walked on to the lot manufacturers are advertising a "no hassle" sale price.

And besides, I'm talking about aftermarket parts, not cars dude. Profit margin on parts is a totally different game. Your that guy that thinks that parts stores are making a killing, aren't you? You obviously didn't learn anything from the OP.

Lets compare apples to apples shall we?

So let me be clear you never ask for a discount on any thing you buy? You never go look at something in local store and then buy it online for less? If you give quality service and fair pricing you will have my business. I am looking at a complete ridetech front suspension and rear 4 bar in the near future and while price will be a issue the most important one is customer service.

[TheJDMan]

My MO when buying parts is to decide on what part I want, take that part number and search for the lowest price. I try to avoid paying full list price whenever I can. Call me crazy, I'm just funny that way. I try to find answers on-line and will only contact a vendor to clearify specific information as needed.

I understand profit margins for vendors and manufacturers but there is one aspect of this discussion that can be controlled and which I have not seen mentioned which is sponsorship. Free parts cost vendors and manufacturers money in exchange for generally very limited press exposure. As a paying customer, I know the price of my parts has the added cost of those free parts added in. I am particularly offended when I see cars built by so called celeberties who have more money to burn than I could ever dream of and yet are too cheap to buy their parts and actually support vendors and manufacturers. These builds usually make a big deal about using the latest and greatest parts that are provided at no or little cost in exchage for worthless endorsements. Why don't you vendors and manufacturers simply cut out these sponsorships which in turn would reduce your overhead costs. Then maybe you could sell parts to us little guys a little cheaper and still make a decent profit margin.

[Greg from Aus]

My take on it,

I have been in business for 22 years, Business is not for all people, there is a reason 80% of all small business go broke in the fist 2 years. As has been said before, it's not just related to one type of business, My belief is you have to be really good at what you do and focus on your own plan, not everybody else, I hope all goes well with your new venture John, But wingeing about what other people do, will not help your position. Keep your head down, bum up and spend your energy on things you can control.

It's human nature for people to try to get the best deal, and that will never change.


Greg

[TT302Z28]

1. Jon, points well spoken.

2. The vendors were not held at gun point. Hell, I have called for a quote and had dealers drop their pants by telling me what the other guy is going to sell it to me for. Then offer me that price Without ever asking! I JUST WANTED TO BUY THE PART! I have dealt with some business men in "this industry" that are the worst I have ever seen. They are even worse salesmen. Nobody ever sells the value of themselves while selling their parts.

Before you attack know that I run a $20m business for Honeywell in a very very competitive market of competitors droping their pants. I tell dealers to pound sand all the time when the want my help and then want to negotiate. Want to ask my advise, buy my parts. No ticky, no taco! I have suffered for it in years past but many of my competitors have now been sold off because they weren't profitable.

3. Taking money and purposely not shipping is fraud. Fortunately this almost but didn't happen to me. Trying to keep this on task and focused but ******* should do time. So should all the other people who take an order and money but do not have or place the order for the parts. I cannot believe a DA hasn't gotten ahold of one of these guys yet.

4. Because of number 3... I now only buy direct or from major companies. All of the manufacturers have tech lines and I use them. God help you if you need to ask a Summit or Jegs sales person for a part number much less for advise. If I'm ordering it is because I have the money and know what I want. Not too long ago I needed a Chicane kit and guess what, I got exactly what I wanted for the price Speedtech asked. Could I have gotten it cheaper through a dealer...maybe. I don't know.

If I want to haggle I'll buy used $hit at a swap meet. I can't afford a new high tech subframe. I can't afford forgeline wheels. So again to Jons point, I don't order them.

So...if YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO SELL THE WHEELS OR FRAMES STOP OFFERING THEM. You can rob Peter to pay Paul only for so long.

[nvawgn]

trying to understand the profit margin here, whats the mark up in general on auto parts. i used to work in the surf industry and there is a huge profit and mark up in the surf industry, for instance on a pair of board shorts the mark up is about 800%, give or take a few %....

[youthpastor]

trying to understand the profit margin here, whats the mark up in general on auto parts. i used to work in the surf industry and there is a huge profit and mark up in the surf industry, for instance on a pair of board shorts the mark up is about 800%, give or take a few %....

General Automotive is anywhere between 65-100%. Hot rod parts are lucky to make 20%. 25-30 is a real good day, but rare.

[youthpastor]

My take on it,

I have been in business for 22 years, Business is not for all people, there is a reason 80% of all small business go broke in the fist 2 years. As has been said before, it's not just related to one type of business, My belief is you have to be really good at what you do and focus on your own plan, not everybody else, I hope all goes well with your new venture John, But wingeing about what other people do, will not help your position. Keep your head down, bum up and spend your energy on things you can control.

It's human nature for people to try to get the best deal, and that will never change.


Greg

Good word Greg!

[nvawgn]

i see, but on custom stuff i.e. sub frames, wheels, the mark up is very little

[MattO]

I see this exact thing all the time in car stereo. Guys will call or come in, take tons of your time and when you quote them a price on parts, "onlinecarstuff.com has it for $xxx" and it drives me absolutely insane.

Yes, you can buy your parts online or elsewhere for less, but you will NOT receive the level of customer service you will eventually need because there is also no warranty on anything you'll buy online. Also, most of those places will not have the knowledge base required, especially if it is in a custom application.

That's why I never really search too hard to find a lower price. Instead I look for a business model and level of service that I like and go with that company/business/parts. I often talk to the salesman about my project and a couple have been kind enough to send me a small discount or some other cool free stuff like memorabilia. in return, I will remember to tell everyone who will listen about my experience.

A perfect example is my tuner, Motor Machine Super Shop in Carmichael, CA. Don and Bob worked their butts off for nearly 3 weeks on my truck, chasing gremlins and problems that were caused by an incompetent shop. Eventually, they got everything squared away and I couldn't be happier. They spent ALOT of time on that truck but knew I flip burgers for a living so they we were able to work something out and I can't begin to thank them enough. The shop's logo is now a welcome addition to my back window and they are the only place I will ever tell people to go.


Service, reputation, and value for the $ will overcome most any hardship. At least I think so.

[LILBuzzy]

Very informative and telling blog here. It is insane for small business to have to compete with corporations. I think Jon from New Gen (plug because we bought from him) expounding in all directions at vendors, customers and manufacturers is very telling of the current business trends in our country. Just an opinion/observation with respect to some companies (not all), but I think it is due to tight resources coupled with lean manufacturing on a JIT type schedule. So many customers do without parts while vendors hold the cash as long as possible due to the wait time on manufacturing. I mean do people pay for a 300,000 dollar car, house etc without it being built yet? Up front? OK yes, that's how the government operates, but that's not what we are talking about. All the while the manufacturer is waiting on the order and the cash from the vendor to start production. Likely the manufacturer is waiting so they don't have to put their cash into materials and at a minimum have a solid commitment from the vendor. That is because current models tell manufacturers/vendors it ain't cool to tie up your money in stock for your vendors/customers when you can do all these other wonderful things with it. Looks as if it is truly a **** rolls down hill process. This wait and hold game eliminates the risk of spending precious capital for all involved, except the end user (us) who is footing the bill from the get go. It's like a parasite, and whether it is the consumer, vendor or the manufacturer to blame, it eventually kills the host(us) and thus the business goes away. What most likely got this started is the old drop ship from the manufacturer. Once upon a time some guy had the notion of contacting the parent company just to see if they would sell direct. This thought has most certainly passed through the visual cortex onto the dentate gyrus in the hippocampus in all of us. So from the manufacturing standpoint, units sold equals market share, and in this day and age, market share wins. Doesn't really matter if you cannibalize your supply chain or your end users resources to get there.

[NOPANTS68]

I've been mulling this thread around in my head for a couple days. Here's my Bob Sugar to your Jerry McGwire, Jon.

The line that sticks out is the call for buyers to take responsibility. It's absurd. If you are taking an adversarial stance to the manner consumers buy your products or shop your company, then you either need to do a better job taking the buyer's temperature or close your business. If the guy's wasting your time, identify if his purchase is a reality and invest your time accordingly. Great sales people can sum up a customer in 30 seconds and pull out the necessary tools to adapt. I teach this to my teams constantly.

It's insane to ask a potential group of buyers to all behave a certain manner and take in to account the personal lives of those selling a product. You know where my responsibility ends as a buyer? It's when I fork over an obscene amount of money for a set of wheels, subframe, lug nuts, sandwich, lap dance, etc etc. Everyone struggles. Everyone has things that go to hell during the day. Why are the personal issues of a company the concern of the buyer?

You should take into account the sweat it took for the buyer to generate the cash to buy those wheels or subframe. Then take into account the frustration when that buyer is told time after time product will be ready, yet doesn't materialize.

Take the time to reflect on these things within your own company and you'll find the key to customer service. It is a vicious marketplace out there, but you're focused on the behavior of a customer base rather than reinventing your behavior as a seller. SERVICE WILL ALWAYS BUILD A FASTER BASE THAN PRICE.

Having said that, and turning to a personal note. Know that I like you Jon. I think people like you are an asset to the movement we all love and enjoy. I think your knowledge is your biggest asset and you have the talent to make NewGen thrive. I however, won't be continuing our business relationship. My expectation as a buyer from NewGen didn't meet the customer service standard that you provided and you turned me off. Call me a nightmare customer, but I don't feel I was asking for much during the process. Dont take it personally, it's just business. People have been saying "......pick two". Think about which two you gave the customer in my transaction.

I have finally recieved my wheels from you and they FAR exceeded my expectations with regards to quality and finish. They are no doubt on par with a Forgeline or HRE wheel. I love them, but more importantly my customer- my wife- loves them. I wouldn't hesitate to tell someone where I got them should they inquire. They will be the crown jewels of my build but the process took what is normally a ceremonial night of box opening into a long sigh of relief. People who read this and have waited for wheels know exactly what I mean.

It may be hard not to, but don't take my post as a flame NewGen thing. It's simply my response to your OP and it couldn't have been more timely. I know that you'd agree for sure. Take it as an oppoutunity to develop and reflect. I take my team's CSI scores more seriously than their sales. It's our bloodline. I want to see you succeed as well as all of the other guys accross the country who are scratching and fighting to make their spot in this tiny market. I wish you the best of luck and wouldn't hesitate to buy you a beer at Del Mar.

Dave

[GregWeld]

When my partner and I ran a large wholesale business his favorite saying was...

"we'd have a really nice business if it wasn't for all these damn customers!"

[Flash68]

This thought has most certainly passed through the visual cortex onto the dentate gyrus in the hippocampus in all of us.

Winner! :lol:

When my partner and I ran a large wholesale business his favorite saying was...

"we'd have a really nice business if it wasn't for all these damn customers!"

That's a close 2nd! :lol:

[67zo6Camaro]

I've been mulling this thread around in my head for a couple days. Here's my Bob Sugar to your Jerry McGwire, Jon.

The line that sticks out is the call for buyers to take responsibility. It's absurd. If you are taking an adversarial stance to the manner consumers buy your products or shop your company, then you either need to do a better job taking the buyer's temperature or close your business. If the guy's wasting your time, identify if his purchase is a reality and invest your time accordingly. Great sales people can sum up a customer in 30 seconds and pull out the necessary tools to adapt. I teach this to my teams constantly.

It's insane to ask a potential group of buyers to all behave a certain manner and take in to account the personal lives of those selling a product. You know where my responsibility ends as a buyer? It's when I fork over an obscene amount of money for a set of wheels, subframe, lug nuts, sandwich, lap dance, etc etc. Everyone struggles. Everyone has things that go to hell during the day. Why are the personal issues of a company the concern of the buyer?

You should take into account the sweat it took for the buyer to generate the cash to buy those wheels or subframe. Then take into account the frustration when that buyer is told time after time product will be ready, yet doesn't materialize.

Take the time to reflect on these things within your own company and you'll find the key to customer service. It is a vicious marketplace out there, but you're focused on the behavior of a customer base rather than reinventing your behavior as a seller. SERVICE WILL ALWAYS BUILD A FASTER BASE THAN PRICE.

Dave

Im with you on this and Im glad someone has put it into simple terms. I keep trying to avoid this thread as many friends have stated different opinions here. And I know when I open my mouth I typically upset someone.

Bottom line..... take a business class explaining how basic economics work along with principles of market, and market share, and you will understand this above comment. It is extremely true.

Sorry, but Im comming forward, and people are going to get mad, but in my opinion.... you shot yourself in the foot by starting a thread crying about how a market works. Build a better mouse trap or find another market to build your buisiness in.

Brett

[Vegas69]

Some very good points that I agree with. You can't change people to fit into your ideal window. You can change their PERCEPTION of you through action and track record. Your reputation or referral makes them want to work with you. It could be considered a warm contact. The trust is already partially there and that means more profit and less headaches in most instances.

I like what somebody said earlier in this thread. Eighty percent of your income comes from your best clients. Concentrate on them and the additional business they create. Chances are, if you like your client, you'll like their friends and your personalities will mesh.

[Lenie]

I've been mulling this thread around in my head for a couple days. Here's my Bob Sugar to your Jerry McGwire, Jon.

The line that sticks out is the call for buyers to take responsibility. It's absurd. If you are taking an adversarial stance to the manner consumers buy your products or shop your company, then you either need to do a better job taking the buyer's temperature or close your business. If the guy's wasting your time, identify if his purchase is a reality and invest your time accordingly. Great sales people can sum up a customer in 30 seconds and pull out the necessary tools to adapt. I teach this to my teams constantly.

It's insane to ask a potential group of buyers to all behave a certain manner and take in to account the personal lives of those selling a product. You know where my responsibility ends as a buyer? It's when I fork over an obscene amount of money for a set of wheels, subframe, lug nuts, sandwich, lap dance, etc etc. Everyone struggles. Everyone has things that go to hell during the day. Why are the personal issues of a company the concern of the buyer?

You should take into account the sweat it took for the buyer to generate the cash to buy those wheels or subframe. Then take into account the frustration when that buyer is told time after time product will be ready, yet doesn't materialize.

Take the time to reflect on these things within your own company and you'll find the key to customer service. It is a vicious marketplace out there, but you're focused on the behavior of a customer base rather than reinventing your behavior as a seller. SERVICE WILL ALWAYS BUILD A FASTER BASE THAN PRICE.

Having said that, and turning to a personal note. Know that I like you Jon. I think people like you are an asset to the movement we all love and enjoy. I think your knowledge is your biggest asset and you have the talent to make NewGen thrive. I however, won't be continuing our business relationship. My expectation as a buyer from NewGen didn't meet the customer service standard that you provided and you turned me off. Call me a nightmare customer, but I don't feel I was asking for much during the process. Dont take it personally, it's just business. People have been saying "......pick two". Think about which two you gave the customer in my transaction.

I have finally recieved my wheels from you and they FAR exceeded my expectations with regards to quality and finish. They are no doubt on par with a Forgeline or HRE wheel. I love them, but more importantly my customer- my wife- loves them. I wouldn't hesitate to tell someone where I got them should they inquire. They will be the crown jewels of my build but the process took what is normally a ceremonial night of box opening into a long sigh of relief. People who read this and have waited for wheels know exactly what I mean.

It may be hard not to, but don't take my post as a flame NewGen thing. It's simply my response to your OP and it couldn't have been more timely. I know that you'd agree for sure. Take it as an oppoutunity to develop and reflect. I take my team's CSI scores more seriously than their sales. It's our bloodline. I want to see you succeed as well as all of the other guys accross the country who are scratching and fighting to make their spot in this tiny market. I wish you the best of luck and wouldn't hesitate to buy you a beer at Del Mar.

Dave

Dave, thanks for this post as I'm not very good getting my point across at times w/words. This post has disturbed me from the very get go w/what a vendor expects from the buyer. With my priorities in place, I have money to build a car, but I do not have hard earned money to waste or spend twice and you could not have said it any better. I do not come on here ever to go after vendors/Mfg's although I will tell you now, I don't know which vendors OR manufacturers to trust anymore. No matter how much I spend, as you put it there is no ceremonial night of box openings for me now. I will try to keep this short. I joined this site to learn and the members on here have been OUTSTANDING. I have also only used vendors/mfg's from this forum and pro-touring to make purchases and tried to spread the wealth but to date it's been very very disappointing. I will give examples of every order I've put out in the past 6 months not giving full details on all products because I don't want to bring my disputes to the board nor will I, so people please don't go there. (1) In Sept. I ordered about $2000 worth of parts from a vendor on here. 2 months later no parts, forgot to put order in, another month no parts, claimed it had to be build, 2weeks later wrong parts arrived. Waited for rma to arrive as promised, never happened so I called Mfg and it was never called in. I was told by mfg parts were readily available on shelf and they took care of me. After 4 months all parts finally arrived and half of them were wrong fit so I tossed them into the trash and reordered. (2) In early Nov. I ordered custom headers ($2,200) to be built, still have not received them nor do I believe they've even started to build them. Only thing keeping me from starting my car:mad: (3) Can't tell you what I ordered thru this vendor/mfg or it's a dead give away but back in mid Nov. I spent about $2,000 on one item which took a little over 2 months to get to me because of the manufacturer and when it arrived it was not what I ordered, again RMA w/the manufacturer not the vendor and I've been waiting again since mid Jan. w/the manufacture not being able to give me a delivery date.This part has put a complete halt to my built for various reasons I don't want to get into, COME ON! (4) Ordered wheels during Black Friday ($4000). Wheels were completed about 10 days ago but the mfg can't ship because his vendor won't pay the last 50% of the bill. So I'm on hold. COME ON!!! Keep in mind, I paid for everything in full up front and every order was thru a different Vendor/Mfg, and have not had one good transaction. To you Vendors/Mfg's, I did not pick your brains for info, I paid in full, all you had to do with my money is order/build the product, pay for it, keep your commisions, and ship it to me. If you have any integrity at all, do the right thing. It can't be that tough. Quit making it out to be more than it is or get out of the business as it's probably not meant to be for you. :soapbox: Whew, now back to your regularly scheduled program. Thanks for your time.

[Lenie]

When my partner and I ran a large wholesale business his favorite saying was...

"we'd have a really nice business if it wasn't for all these damn customers!"

Greg, I gotta tell you, your post constantly put a smile on my face. Keep up the good work.:D

[camcojb]

Lenie,

If any of the vendors you're waiting on are vendors from this site I'd be glad to try to help out. You can send me a pm.

[Lenie]

Lenie,

If any of the vendors you're waiting on are vendors from this site I'd be glad to try to help out. You can send me a pm.

Thanks Jody but I'm going to try and wait it out and let everyone involved hopefully do the right thing. You know, always look for the good in people. I'm not trying to go after vendors/mfg's, I was just trying to point out that I agree with Dave's post.....and kinda stepped out of my comfort zone.
Thanks again though.

[camcojb]

Thanks Jody but I'm going to try and wait it out and let everyone involved hopefully do the right thing. You know, always look for the good in people. I'm not trying to go after vendors/mfg's, I was just trying to point out that I agree with Dave's post.....and kinda stepped out of my comfort zone.
Thanks again though.

That's fine Lenie. Let us know if we can help.

[hifi875]

General Automotive is anywhere between 65-100%. Hot rod parts are lucky to make 20%. 25-30 is a real good day, but rare.

That is actually a 35-50% profit to make clear of the true profit margin.
cost/selling price is the actual profit %. So if you pay $100 for something and sell it for $120, 20%is NOT you profit margin. $100/$120=.84 or 16%.

[GregWeld]

That is actually a 35-50% profit to make clear of the true profit margin.
cost/selling price is the actual profit %. So if you pay $100 for something and sell it for $120, 20%is NOT you profit margin. $100/$120=.84 or 16%.

Well --- to be really perfectly clear -- there is 100% MARKUP which is 50% MARGIN

Many people just don't know the difference between MARKUP and MARGIN.

[Ron in SoCal]

Lenny you present yourself w class and style everytime you post. I mean that. :thumbsup:

OTHO, I'm the exact oppostie so PM the name of the header company so I can start a smear campaign and get you your headers. :cool: You can thank me by posting a start up vid of your killer machine. Deal? :D

[Lenie]

Lenny you present yourself w class and style everytime you post. I mean that. :thumbsup:

OTHO, I'm the exact oppostie so PM the name of the header company so I can start a smear campaign and get you your headers. :cool: You can thank me by posting a start up vid of your killer machine. Deal? :D

Thanks Ron. Your second reply is what I really enjoy about this forum, I love cars and the humor that goes along w/it:cheers: On the other hand, I'm the jealous kind and the fact you have your car over at Gonzo's really pisses me off!!!:bow:

[Vegas69]

Lenie, let us know when you want to let the dogs out. :D We'll make them pay with some little things called REPUTATION and LIVELYHOOD.:yes:

[Lenie]

Lenie, let us know when you want to let the dogs out. :D We'll make them pay with some little things called REPUTATION and LIVELYHOOD.:yes:

Todd, love the way you always beat around the bush, perfect running mate to go into battle with! You'll see the signal when I'm ready :pushbutto:lateral:

[XLexusTech]

Well said.. thanks for the perspective.... In on the Boycott.... i thought it was too good to be true..... will spend my 10-20K elsewhere..

[CarlC]

Mr. Weld, I had a very wise Regional Sales Manager that I worked for that once told me "Not all distributors go to heaven." Those are some serious words of wisdom.

It's not at all easy to put the genie back in the bottle once a pricing/terms/conditions precedent has been set and FOLLOWED BY OTHERS. That's the nature of capitalism.

Oh, and Greg, isn't that what a stocking distributor is supposed to do, stock product? They don't like that one little bit when the inventory carry cost eats into an average mid-20's GP% for the local warehouse (industrial distribution.) Hence, the overnight delivery to a local from a master DC on pricey parts.

As Brett mentioned, a manufacturer cannot dictate what a distributor sells a product for. That's price fixing, and I don't believe that spending quality time with Bubba in the Fed Pen is worth it. If the distributor wants to lose money on the sale, that is their choice. The only way that the manufacturer can have any sort of control/price fixing is to cancel any distributor that sells below the retail price level . That's why there are some products that cannot be found below a certain price level. That can be a mixed bag for both parties.

There are plenty of vendors out there that have splendid reputations. Some have been mentioned here. For me, one of the best has been Kore3. I'll deal with Tobin again because he let me bounce some ideas/problems that I continue to deal with. That is something that he paid for with his sweat figuring out, so if buying some parts from him helps pay the bills, I'm good with it.

The stench of poor customer service lasts a lot longer than the satisfaction of knowing you received your money's worth from paying a higher price for outstanding service.

.....off soapbox.

[onevoice]

What a strange thread:(

A vendor who couldn't compete, starts by whining about a competitor, and giving a, why can't we vendors be OPEC and agree to all raise our prices argument. Then it turns into a pile on session rehashing old issues. I hadn't been around in a while, so I checked out the other threads about vendors. More piling on, with no real facts. Then when a vendor decides to defend himself, a MODERATOR jumps into the fray with a "he screwed me" story. Vendor falls on his sword, admits a couple of mistakes have been made out of thousands of transactions, but all are remedied now. Vendor then refutes the moderators story with email proof from the wheel supplier in question, then the MODERATOR deletes posts and locks the thread. What the hell really happened?

What a load of BS

That is why these issues don't get resolved on forums, there is always two sides to a story, and with custom work, many conflicts.

I for one support him, no ifs, ands, or buts. Always on time for me, loads of help when needed, and great prices. I can tell you why he is able to offer the prices he has, because despite the appearance, he is basically a one man show. He runs the parts business, answers the phone, directs the paint and body shop and just about everything else. His overhead before he moved into the new shop was laughable. His shop consisted of a nice paint booth, with an attached shop that was ridiculously small. His teardown guy often worked OUTSIDE, hows that for low cost? I don't doubt he cleaned the toilets also.;)

Betcha didn't know he was the tech advisor for the US Camaro club and often wrote articles for the magazine 20+ years ago. All this pissing and moaning has driven one of the best resources for 1st gen camaro tech almost out of easy reach. He has forgotten more about 1st gen camaros than the other vendor ever knew.

If it is so easy to be perfect, and make money in this business, why don't some of you internet expert complainers hang out your shingle? O, I forgot, now you can be criticized for paying your bills and mortgage :rolleyes:

People reading this in the future would be well advised to take everything with a grain of salt. I have been there, seen the operation, spent plenty of money, had a car painted, and I will go back. No doubts whatsoever.

[GregWeld]

^^^^^^^^^ First cousin??:rofl: :rofl:

[nacnac]

Im with you on this and Im glad someone has put it into simple terms. I keep trying to avoid this thread as many friends have stated different opinions here. And I know when I open my mouth I typically upset someone.

Bottom line..... take a business class explaining how basic economics work along with principles of market, and market share, and you will understand this above comment. It is extremely true.

Sorry, but Im comming forward, and people are going to get mad, but in my opinion.... you shot yourself in the foot by starting a thread crying about how a market works. Build a better mouse trap or find another market to build your buisiness in.

Brett

Thank you thank you thank you

[camcojb]

What a strange thread:(

A vendor who couldn't compete, starts by whining about a competitor, and giving a, why can't we vendors be OPEC and agree to all raise our prices argument. Then it turns into a pile on session rehashing old issues. I hadn't been around in a while, so I checked out the other threads about vendors. More piling on, with no real facts. Then when a vendor decides to defend himself, a MODERATOR jumps into the fray with a "he screwed me" story. Vendor falls on his sword, admits a couple of mistakes have been made out of thousands of transactions, but all are remedied now. Vendor then refutes the moderators story with email proof from the wheel supplier in question, then the MODERATOR deletes posts and locks the thread. What the hell really happened?

What a load of BS

That is why these issues don't get resolved on forums, there is always two sides to a story, and with custom work, many conflicts.

I for one support him, no ifs, ands, or buts. Always on time for me, loads of help when needed, and great prices. I can tell you why he is able to offer the prices he has, because despite the appearance, he is basically a one man show. He runs the parts business, answers the phone, directs the paint and body shop and just about everything else. His overhead before he moved into the new shop was laughable. His shop consisted of a nice paint booth, with an attached shop that was ridiculously small. His teardown guy often worked OUTSIDE, hows that for low cost? I don't doubt he cleaned the toilets also.;)

Betcha didn't know he was the tech advisor for the US Camaro club and often wrote articles for the magazine 20+ years ago. All this pissing and moaning has driven one of the best resources for 1st gen camaro tech almost out of easy reach. He has forgotten more about 1st gen camaros than the other vendor ever knew.

If it is so easy to be perfect, and make money in this business, why don't some of you internet expert complainers hang out your shingle? O, I forgot, now you can be criticized for paying your bills and mortgage :rolleyes:

People reading this in the future would be well advised to take everything with a grain of salt. I have been there, seen the operation, spent plenty of money, had a car painted, and I will go back. No doubts whatsoever.

I edited your post. While you think your post shows support for this guy (it does) it also does more harm than good by naming him. I guarantee it will turn into another bashing thread.

I would encourage you to support the vendors and dealers that support you. If they take care of you, give good advice and service, and pricing that fits the budget that's what matters.

[tjbruning]

I've been mulling this thread around in my head for a couple days. Here's my Bob Sugar to your Jerry McGwire, Jon.

The line that sticks out is the call for buyers to take responsibility. It's absurd. If you are taking an adversarial stance to the manner consumers buy your products or shop your company, then you either need to do a better job taking the buyer's temperature or close your business. If the guy's wasting your time, identify if his purchase is a reality and invest your time accordingly. Great sales people can sum up a customer in 30 seconds and pull out the necessary tools to adapt. I teach this to my teams constantly.

It's insane to ask a potential group of buyers to all behave a certain manner and take in to account the personal lives of those selling a product. You know where my responsibility ends as a buyer? It's when I fork over an obscene amount of money for a set of wheels, subframe, lug nuts, sandwich, lap dance, etc etc. Everyone struggles. Everyone has things that go to hell during the day. Why are the personal issues of a company the concern of the buyer?

You should take into account the sweat it took for the buyer to generate the cash to buy those wheels or subframe. Then take into account the frustration when that buyer is told time after time product will be ready, yet doesn't materialize.

Take the time to reflect on these things within your own company and you'll find the key to customer service. It is a vicious marketplace out there, but you're focused on the behavior of a customer base rather than reinventing your behavior as a seller. SERVICE WILL ALWAYS BUILD A FASTER BASE THAN PRICE.

Having said that, and turning to a personal note. Know that I like you Jon. I think people like you are an asset to the movement we all love and enjoy. I think your knowledge is your biggest asset and you have the talent to make NewGen thrive. I however, won't be continuing our business relationship. My expectation as a buyer from NewGen didn't meet the customer service standard that you provided and you turned me off. Call me a nightmare customer, but I don't feel I was asking for much during the process. Dont take it personally, it's just business. People have been saying "......pick two". Think about which two you gave the customer in my transaction.

I have finally recieved my wheels from you and they FAR exceeded my expectations with regards to quality and finish. They are no doubt on par with a Forgeline or HRE wheel. I love them, but more importantly my customer- my wife- loves them. I wouldn't hesitate to tell someone where I got them should they inquire. They will be the crown jewels of my build but the process took what is normally a ceremonial night of box opening into a long sigh of relief. People who read this and have waited for wheels know exactly what I mean.

It may be hard not to, but don't take my post as a flame NewGen thing. It's simply my response to your OP and it couldn't have been more timely. I know that you'd agree for sure. Take it as an oppoutunity to develop and reflect. I take my team's CSI scores more seriously than their sales. It's our bloodline. I want to see you succeed as well as all of the other guys accross the country who are scratching and fighting to make their spot in this tiny market. I wish you the best of luck and wouldn't hesitate to buy you a beer at Del Mar.

Dave

Well said... I've been in a customer service position from day one of my working life, from restaurant manager to territory sales to... Customers are king! Positive customer experiences will make or break you and will be one of the only things that set you apart from your competition.

Complaining about "needy" customers on a reputable forum like Lateral-g is tacky IMO. If you don't want potential customers to ask you tech questions or rely on you to guarantee wheel fitment, don't promote it on your website! Have a customer dispute? Why not try and work with the customer to resolve the issue? A little goes a long way...

I have no personal "beef" with any vendor on this website, but I would also like to thank Scott and Dave at Forgeline for going above and beyond. We were burned by a private label wheel designer last year for $4,600. After the final 50% payment was made, the vendor went out of business. Forgeline manufactured the wheels for this company, so they were in the loop and probably got burned on the deal as well. Long story short, we ended up losing a ton of money but Scott and Dave definitely stepped up to the plate. Exceptional customer service!

[Scorpner]

You know, I think it’s about time I get some things off my chest for my friends here on Lateral-G. Things that have been on my mind for over a year now, things that I think that just need to be out in the open for everyone to think about and take into consideration, what with all the “vendor talk” this past two weeks...

I’m going to make a quick post here. I’ve been trying to keep up with this thread so I may have missed something, so I ask for forgiveness if I’m rehashing anything. It's also kind of a general post so don't take anything personally, I just quoted you to address a couple of things you mentioned.

I’ve been in customer service for most of my life and I can understand the frustration involved. Even though customers are the life blood of a business, not all of them are beneficial to a company. I have experienced more than my share of ignorance, abuse, theft, and on and on. (My (favorite) first lesson was when I was a 14yr old paper boy.) Customers are people like anywhere else. I’ve learned over the years that most people that say that the customer is king simply don’t personally deal with a large volume over many years. It is emotionally and mentally draining sometimes and it is something most people either burn out on, or move on to another position. I will say that those that don’t personally do it, don’t preach to those that do. I’ve also helped a lot of people with no nonsense and money saving advice. That’s where I’ve been able to retain most of my customers (now friends) over the years, and it’s great when they come to me when they need help. It’s not an ego thing, it simply tells me that I’m doing good at my job. When you help someone in a meaningful way they will want to return the favor just the same if someone does the same for me. Sometimes I actually make it a point to go out of my way to return the favor.

I have some ideas and suggestions if it will help, if not, then no big deal. When I’ve held a position that had proprietary knowledge there was a lot of pressure from a lot of people that needed correct information and advice at the time of contact. It was so bad that it didn’t leave me time to perform the job I was hired to do. My response was to create a document that was appropriate for the people that needed the information. No frills, nothing fancy, just the info, how to use it -and I refined it over time to keep it up to date. The document was well received and had a lot of value for everyone involved, and if you can create something similar it will have value for you as well. In this situation, I would suggest that you either refer customers to a site like this for basic advice, or create a public forum and/or post emails (with permission) answering common and useful questions. Then when you get a customer on the line with a million questions you can refer them to where they can get the correct information at the time they need it. Then they can get back to you if they have any additional things to ask. Emails are great in that you can get back to someone when you have the time to provide a decent reply, and if it’s something common, you can get away with cut and pasting important things without forgetting something and then having to recontact or retract something. It also provides a way of looking back on conversations as well (specific parts/combos etc.). If you don’t already have a Bluetooth head set -get one. When I’m repairing something or they hear me typing/working or what have you, they can hear how busy I am. I’m also able to get two things done at the same time. It’s kind of like they’re next you while you keep doing what you need to get done. Another thing you can do while you're talking is finding out what their needs and wants are in order to help you come up with new things that they are looking for. IMO, it would be a waste not to take advantage of the opportunity.

Another thing that you might have to face is that many people just want cheap parts. That’s why most companies have separated their product into two lines. I personally hate it since when I buy a brand, I like to count on the quality being the same. Unfortunately, the market won’t support that and you may have to strongly consider a cheaper product line in order to compete. Doesn’t have to be crappy, it can still be quality, just no frills. When I was younger I used to buy my parts at a particular store because of the quality. One day they quoted me what I thought was a cheap price, but when I got the part home it wasn’t what I was used to. I went back and said that this wasn’t acceptable. The guy there replied that they couldn’t sell the better quality parts, however they still carry the high quality line, but I would have to specifically ask for it. The store still exists today and I still buy parts there.

Keep your product unique, help make sure your customers receive the info they need while still being able to manage your time, offer a cheaper yet less desirable alternative (because that is what the market is dictating to you), and keep looking for ways to maintain a competitive advantage that the bigger places can’t infiltrate.
-Sorry about the length I get to typing and end up with a novel sometimes. lol

[novanutcase]

Maybe I'm naive but I don't understand why this is such a big issue.

If someone calls you and starts asking you about backspace/wheel fitment why can't you, before you start giving out info, politely ask the person which wheel he/she is interested in and what size. From there I would ask them if they are ready to buy. If they aren't and they say they are just shopping then I would tell them that when they are ready to buy you would be more than happy to provide them with all the necessary information needed for wheel fitment.

If they don't call back then they were never really interested in buying from you anyways.

John

[RoadHammer]

AMEN to that!

Although if you pick price as your "two out of three", then I think you should have to forfeit your second pick.......:wow:

I'm sure every vendor has the exact same problems and hurdles, I spent days educating a customer (in person) about choices and parts to run, developed a project plan, and then got screwed when he started ordering his own parts and took the labour end of it to his "buddy" because he was only charging him 25 bucks an hour. And it wasn't someone who couldnt afford to pay....

I probably come accross as grumpy to some of our customers, but in the end its only because I can't afford to chat them up for hours and hours and they really havent spent much anyways. People are always amazed when they find out that the guy who just spent 250k is a "better" customer that their 569 dollar wiring harness purchase, because every customer is important right??

You have got to look out for yourself, because although all of our customers are coming to us in pursuit of their HOBBY, and have the misconception that that is all we are doing it for, when in reality we have got to feed our kids and pay our bills with it! And it is ALWAYS a shame to lose a sale to summit or jegs because it was 25 bucks cheaper, yet you were quoting your customer a shipped price........

For those of you who are Manitobans on this forum....... ITS NOT CHEAPER TO SHIP IT TO THE BORDER and pick it up yourself PERIOD. even if you get free continental US shipping, lets add it up:

-On ONE box, it is $5 US per box to pick it up at a parcel depot
-It is now $10.75 US service fee to cross the border only to pick up a parcel
-You still have to pay tax on the item you are bringing back, as you have not been across long enough for your personal exemption
-Gas money..... most of you are from Winnipeg, which is around 60 miles away each way. average 20 MPG for your vehicle choice, and that is 6 gal or 27.24 L (canadian) at 1.15/L so 31.25 in GAS
-TIME....our time is worth something, is yours? Did you take off work early? lose pay? waste your weekend? It takes MINIMUM 2.5 hours without lineups at the border.

That equals around 48 bucks CAD without the tax for the item on ONE box. That box could only contain a 100 dollar part. Was my price really that bad? You be the judge. Also, when I recieve my items, I check the box and the item to see if it is right or damaged or missing. If it is wrong, I deal with it. You have to ship it back or buy another one.

Also for any of our suppliers, this is why we DONT like to ship to a US address. Add in our time and it is cheaper for us to broker and ship direct.

I agree, in part, with the above statement. However, There are some flaws in logic with it.

Primarily, when canadian dealers of speed parts are marking them up 200% or more and give you some bull**** song and dance while in the meantime they themselves broker the same parts from the USA getting them at US prices that I can get, then I call bull****.

Having said that, I support local businesses when they are the better price or are extremely competitive with US prices making not worth my time to run to the border.

If a car hobbyist from Canada that's building a car is going to buy parts from the US, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. Buying parts in large sections(ex. Frames, drivetrain, wheels, etc, things that are thousands of dollars) all at once and pick it up in one or two trips then its not bad. Running to the border for a $2 doo-hickey is stupid.

My guideline for Cross-shopping is as follows:

If the Cdn. dealer is 10% higher than US price or less, then money stays with Cdn dealer.

If Cdn is 25 - 30% higher than US price then I will think about buying it in the US.

If Cdn is 50% higher than US price or more then its a no-brainer.

There are exceptions to the rules above but for the most part and for most ppl, going on weekends is certainly not a dealer-breaker.

I will state that I am not a customer of 64pontiac's but when dealers start mouthing off acting arrogant and/or start crying about how they can't compete with US prices, it really gets old and annoying especially when the CDN dollar is worth more than the US Dollar. I have NEVER been charged a US BORDER $10.75 USER FEE for pick-ups, EVER!! Only applicable duties and PST/GST and the $5/pkg at the depot

[Blake Foster]

I agree, in part, with the above statement. However, There are some flaws in logic with it.

Primarily, when canadian dealers of speed parts are marking them up 200% or more and give you some bull**** song and dance while in the meantime they themselves broker the same parts from the USA getting them at US prices that I can get, then I call bull****.

Having said that, I support local businesses when they are the better price or are extremely competitive with US prices making not worth my time to run to the border.

If a car hobbyist from Canada that's building a car is going to buy parts from the US, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. Buying parts in large sections(ex. Frames, drivetrain, wheels, etc, things that are thousands of dollars) all at once and pick it up in one or two trips then its not bad. Running to the border for a $2 doo-hickey is stupid.

My guideline for Cross-shopping is as follows:

If the Cdn. dealer is 10% higher than US price or less, then money stays with Cdn dealer.

If Cdn is 25 - 30% higher than US price then I will think about buying it in the US.

If Cdn is 50% higher than US price or more then its a no-brainer.

There are exceptions to the rules above but for the most part and for most ppl, going on weekends is certainly not a dealer-breaker.

I will state that I am not a customer of 64pontiac's but when dealers start mouthing off acting arrogant and/or start crying about how they can't compete with US prices, it really gets old and annoying especially when the CDN dollar is worth more than the US Dollar. I have NEVER been charged a US BORDER $10.75 USER FEE for pick-ups, EVER!! Only applicable duties and PST/GST and the $5/pkg at the depot

I find it hard to think a CDN dealer is charging 200% mark up in this day and age of the internet, but hey anything is possible. I Wouldn't think that would promote a huge amount of sales.
Building cars in CDA has ALWAYS been alot more expensive, in years past I used to take the US dollar and just double it to get my cost.

It also depends also how the dealer is bringing the parts in, if they are using UPS/FedEx then it is a total rip off and is stupid expensive to ship across the boarder. (this is where Tyler and i differ as he is not regularly going to the US and is further from the boarder than us and we do go on a regular basis so for him it probably makes more sence to have the parts delivered direct to him)
If the dealer is sending their delivery truck and parts person over the boarder to pick up the parts and broaker them then there should be a small cost passed on for that don't you think??? they just saved you a bunch of money on the shipping and the dealer just used his truck, gas, insurance, driver, ect to go get your parts, probably others peoples parts as well. oh and they had to pay the 5.00 per package handling fee as well (same as you would have)

You are not paying the 10.75 boarder fee because you are not a registered business. If you are going to the US and importing parts that are not for personal use then you need to have a valid importer # for CDA as well as a valid SCAC code for the US side and you need to go through Commercial customs on your way into the US and pay the 10.75, that is how it works. if your not doing it that way then your doing it illegially. Hell when I take my car into the US for a show or event I have to go through commercial customs pay the 10.75 and get a temporary B2 work visa, because my vehicle is registered.

It has been a while since the CDN dollar was worth MORE than the US dollar and even when it was it didn't last long. Currently it will cost you about 1.3% if your getting a good deal. On Friday the exchange was at less than 1% if your buying cash so very close if your using your VISA card then it will be closer to 4-5% plus now some banks are charging a international tranaction fee on top of the exchange rate

I remember in 2006 when it was almost 30% differance that hurts, buy a part in the US for 100.00 pay 130.00 CDN, then add shipping in US dollars add the exchange to that as well. and 200% differance in US and CDN price comes pretty fast. but today not the same situation.

[DRJDVM's '69]

One saying that I have always hated....

The customer is always right.....

Sometimes the customer is dead wrong and just a complete a-hole....

But if you want to succeed in business sometimes you have to suck it up and swallow a little pride and live by the saying...

[NewGenWheels]

I think this thread has done what I hoped it would, got people talking. I knew that some of what I originally posted would be taken too literally, or seen as whining and complaining. Of course it would, we are for that matter communicating via a message board, but the important thing was to get it all out in the open. I knew I'd be putting myself at risk of being ridiculed or bashed as well, but I can tell you, I think the long term benefits far outweigh the short term knee jerk reactions to the post. The long term benefits being, that customers will start thinking about loyalty to your vendors. Also, vendors will start thinking about their loyal customers and taking better care of them, and that its more about the relationships, then saving 20 bucks. And, that hopefully, the discount whores will stop it, and realize your not doing anybody any good.

Maybe I'm naive but I don't understand why this is such a big issue.

If someone calls you and starts asking you about backspace/wheel fitment why can't you, before you start giving out info, politely ask the person which wheel he/she is interested in and what size. From there I would ask them if they are ready to buy. If they aren't and they say they are just shopping then I would tell them that when they are ready to buy you would be more than happy to provide them with all the necessary information needed for wheel fitment.

If they don't call back then they were never really interested in buying from you anyways.

John

And this is exactly what we do. I'm just ranting that it sucks we have to do it, and its too bad that we still have customers who get upset about us asking. No, I'm not charging customers for tech advice, BUT am I not giving it away for free either. I do ask customers when they call more about what their goals are, and what wheel they are thinking about doing before I get into moving forward. We do exactly that, read the customer, get an idea if they are serious, and move forward accordingly. But, it has happened where customers have called and said first thing: What fits a 69 camaro? Nope, I"m not buying from you, but I know you know what fits, can you tell me? And I'm looking forward to this thread hopefully killing some of those calls...

I've been mulling this thread around in my head for a couple days. Here's my Bob Sugar to your Jerry McGwire, Jon.

The line that sticks out is the call for buyers to take responsibility. It's absurd. If you are taking an adversarial stance to the manner consumers buy your products or shop your company, then you either need to do a better job taking the buyer's temperature or close your business. If the guy's wasting your time, identify if his purchase is a reality and invest your time accordingly. Great sales people can sum up a customer in 30 seconds and pull out the necessary tools to adapt. I teach this to my teams constantly.

It's insane to ask a potential group of buyers to all behave a certain manner and take in to account the personal lives of those selling a product. You know where my responsibility ends as a buyer? It's when I fork over an obscene amount of money for a set of wheels, subframe, lug nuts, sandwich, lap dance, etc etc. Everyone struggles. Everyone has things that go to hell during the day. Why are the personal issues of a company the concern of the buyer?

You should take into account the sweat it took for the buyer to generate the cash to buy those wheels or subframe. Then take into account the frustration when that buyer is told time after time product will be ready, yet doesn't materialize.

Take the time to reflect on these things within your own company and you'll find the key to customer service. It is a vicious marketplace out there, but you're focused on the behavior of a customer base rather than reinventing your behavior as a seller. SERVICE WILL ALWAYS BUILD A FASTER BASE THAN PRICE.

Having said that, and turning to a personal note. Know that I like you Jon. I think people like you are an asset to the movement we all love and enjoy. I think your knowledge is your biggest asset and you have the talent to make NewGen thrive. I however, won't be continuing our business relationship. My expectation as a buyer from NewGen didn't meet the customer service standard that you provided and you turned me off. Call me a nightmare customer, but I don't feel I was asking for much during the process. Dont take it personally, it's just business. People have been saying "......pick two". Think about which two you gave the customer in my transaction.

I have finally recieved my wheels from you and they FAR exceeded my expectations with regards to quality and finish. They are no doubt on par with a Forgeline or HRE wheel. I love them, but more importantly my customer- my wife- loves them. I wouldn't hesitate to tell someone where I got them should they inquire. They will be the crown jewels of my build but the process took what is normally a ceremonial night of box opening into a long sigh of relief. People who read this and have waited for wheels know exactly what I mean.

It may be hard not to, but don't take my post as a flame NewGen thing. It's simply my response to your OP and it couldn't have been more timely. I know that you'd agree for sure. Take it as an oppoutunity to develop and reflect. I take my team's CSI scores more seriously than their sales. It's our bloodline. I want to see you succeed as well as all of the other guys accross the country who are scratching and fighting to make their spot in this tiny market. I wish you the best of luck and wouldn't hesitate to buy you a beer at Del Mar.

Dave

Dave, thank you for your two cents, and I'm glad you are happy with the wheels. I would at least hope you'd agree that every time you messaged me, or texted, I responded. I never ignored you, which in my book, means I customer serviced you...It may not have been the answer you were looking for every time, but it was an answer. And thank you for your compliments on the quality of the wheel. In response to the early comments in that post, where you comment on "It's insane to ask a potential group of buyers to all behave a certain manner and take in to account the personal lives of those selling a product" I partly agree, but my rant has to do with the "I sent you an email at 5:30Pm on Friday, and its Monday and haven't heard back from you" style of complaints. I'm simply asking customers to think about how ridiculous that complaint is before getting huffy and pissed to the point of coming on here and flaming a dealer. That dealer probably checked out at 5:00 on Friday like most do, and checked back in on Monday.

I'm not saying customer service isn't king either here guys. Of course it is, I most definitely agree with that. Perfect example is with Dave above, after his Fikse order went bad, I gave him my personal cell number so he could communicate with me via text and phone. I'm asking everyone to remember what good customer service is... and not expect that everyone works 24/7, and that most of what we do here, doesn't happen over night either. And that good customer service doesn't necessarily mean a free set of wheels just because you "don't like" what you got. My goal here was to try and bring everyone back down to reality, and try to point out some obvious things that for some reason just were not addressed previously.

Also, a big thank you to each and every one of you that called to talk about this thread. I enjoyed our conversations, regardless if you posted in it or not.

[NOPANTS68]

Dave, thank you for your two cents, and I'm glad you are happy with the wheels. I would at least hope you'd agree that every time you messaged me, or texted, I responded. I never ignored you, which in my book, means I customer serviced you...It may not have been the answer you were looking for every time, but it was an answer. And thank you for your compliments on the quality of the wheel. In response to the early comments in that post, where you comment on "It's insane to ask a potential group of buyers to all behave a certain manner and take in to account the personal lives of those selling a product" I partly agree, but my rant has to do with the "I sent you an email at 5:30Pm on Friday, and its Monday and haven't heard back from you" style of complaints. I'm simply asking customers to think about how ridiculous that complaint is before getting huffy and pissed to the point of coming on here and flaming a dealer. That dealer probably checked out at 5:00 on Friday like most do, and checked back in on Monday.

I'm not saying customer service isn't king either here guys. Of course it is, I most definitely agree with that. Perfect example is with Dave above, after his Fikse order went bad, I gave him my personal cell number so he could communicate with me via text and phone. I'm asking everyone to remember what good customer service is... and not expect that everyone works 24/7, and that most of what we do here, doesn't happen over night either. And that good customer service doesn't necessarily mean a free set of wheels just because you "don't like" what you got. My goal here was to try and bring everyone back down to reality, and try to point out some obvious things that for some reason just were not addressed previously.

Also, a big thank you to each and every one of you that called to talk about this thread. I enjoyed our conversations, regardless if you posted in it or not.

I think I understand quite clearly that a wheel company's owner does not work 24/7. I was only asking in part of my response to your OP, that a vendor should take into account that he or she is in control of several thousands of a buyer's unrecoverable dollars. That vendor also should understand with crystal clarity that the only thing a buyer has to go on with regards to his order is the word of the vendor. When that vendor doesn't act on his word, it escalates the frustration of an already touchy situation. Let's also be clear that nobody got a "free set of wheels" because they didn't "like what they got" when the Fikses showed up. If that was directed at my situation, it is untrue at a minimum. If it isn't, I stand corrected. I'm not trying to turn this into a Dave and Jon thread, but if we are gonna get real- make it real.

[NewGenWheels]

I think I understand quite clearly that a wheel company's owner does not work 24/7. I was only asking in part of my response to your OP, that a vendor should take into account that he or she is in control of several thousands of a buyer's unrecoverable dollars. That vendor also should understand with crystal clarity that the only thing a buyer has to go on with regards to his order is the word of the vendor. When that vendor doesn't act on his word, it escalates the frustration of an already touchy situation. Let's also be clear that nobody got a "free set of wheels" because they didn't "like what they got" when the Fikses showed up. If that was directed at my situation, it is untrue at a minimum. If it isn't, I stand corrected. I'm not trying to turn this into a Dave and Jon thread, but if we are gonna get real- make it real.

No, that was not to be taken literally either, and DEFINITELY did not pertain to you at all. Ugh, I give up. Lets have a beer at Del Mar, talk to you then.

[NOPANTS68]

Done and done. I'll buy first round then. You're buying rounds 2 and 3 though. lol

[SWAPMEETCRAZY]

As probably the last guy u sold wheels 2 before leaving Driversinc, just wanted to say (as u mentioned above) that after a few minutes talking U figured out I was serious and U could deliver--and I couldn't be happier with the "Schott's" ---As a buyer I try to convey quickly I'm "ready to buy" to a vendor--but with questions answered.......good luck Jon and enjoy that beer with Dave!!!! thanx again......jim :unibrow:

[LILBuzzy]

[QUOTE=Flash68;397464]Winner! :lol:


CAN'T HELP IT, I TEACH ANATOMY. IT'S A REAL PROBLEM SOMETIMES.:D

[MCB Matt]

Its simple and a lot of customers are in the dark these days and continue to buy parts from companies that Frankly don't know WTF they are doing!

We have VERY good relationships with the manufactures we deal with and encourage our customers to call and checkup on us....we have nothing to hide and we aren't on anyones $hit list (its amazing how big that list has gotten and some of the worst are forum vendors as most of you can see!)

We offer customer service with every order FREE
We discount when we can but we make $$ as we should
We order your parts with the manufacture right away
We don't rob peter to pay paul...as you have witnessed, some vendors do, thats why you are still waiting for parts and will NOT get a refund!
We answer the phone during business hours
We have a staff that do their jobs and know what is expected of them
We don't use credit or get loans
We pay up front
We have been in biz almost 11 years, we must know what we are doing!
We have a good reputation....in general, not just on the forums

Thats my .02 as I try to stay out of these types of threads unless they are directed at us!

We sell millions in parts every year and have never even considered taking an order and not sending a PO so the parts will ship....anything less is fraud, BS, unethical, rude, stupid, ect.....the hole you dig doing biz that way will never be filled. You show your true colors in the way you do biz with a customer the first time and all the way through!

I have heard sooooo many stories from members here on how they got screwed and I can't believe the BS they are fed.....we are adults....not a bunch of dumba$$es

Every customer deserves respect, customer service and most important to get the parts they paid for....its a pretty simple business model, at least to me as I was taught by my late father who ran his own business for 30 years! God bless him, he had a reputation like MCB

Its Friday....go have fun this weekend....you get one life PERIOD

[camcojb]

Its simple and a lot of customers are in the dark these days and continue to buy parts from companies that Frankly don't know WTF they are doing!

We have VERY good relationships with the manufactures we deal with and encourage our customers to call and checkup on us....we have nothing to hide and we aren't on anyones $hit list (its amazing how big that list has gotten and some of the worst are forum vendors as most of you can see!)

We offer customer service with every order FREE
We discount when we can but we make $$ as we should
We order your parts with the manufacture right away
We don't rob peter to pay paul...as you have witnessed, some vendors do, thats why you are still waiting for parts and will NOT get a refund!
We answer the phone during business hours
We have a staff that do their jobs and know what is expected of them
We don't use credit or get loans
We pay up front
We have been in biz almost 11 years, we must know what we are doing!
We have a good reputation....in general, not just on the forums

Thats my .02 as I try to stay out of these types of threads unless they are directed at us!

We sell millions in parts every year and have never even considered taking an order and not sending a PO so the parts will ship....anything less is fraud, BS, unethical, rude, stupid, ect.....the hole you dig doing biz that way will never be filled. You show your true colors in the way you do biz with a customer the first time and all the way through!

I have heard sooooo many stories from members here on how they got screwed and I can't believe the BS they are fed.....we are adults....not a bunch of dumba$$es

Every customer deserves respect, customer service and most important to get the parts they paid for....its a pretty simple business model, at least to me as I was taught by my late father who ran his own business for 30 years! God bless him, he had a reputation like MCB

Its Friday....go have fun this weekend....you get one life PERIOD
if you see the feedback left for you in our new feedback area, it's obvious you're doing things right. :cheers:

[cluxford]

Capitalism and commodisation (spelt the proper aussie way)

This has been going on for centuries and will for many more. In short the market place just continues to expand

First it was you sold local in the 1 horse town you had the only blacksmith shop

Then you could sell to the county and you competed

Then the state with more competition

Then it become national competition

Then regional (ie north American)

Then globally.....

What's next

Basically the market evolves. Buyers have more choice sellers have more competition

As consumers we demand this