Coil Overs On Driver

[narlee]

I have searched the forum and found a lot of information on coil overs. I have a 69 Camaro that will be a driver, not a cruise downtown driver but a jump in and go anywhere no matter how far driver. I want to set it up to ride well and handle very well and research seems to show to get the handling with a leaf spring set-up the ride suffers. This brought me to coil overs, is there any problems with running them (all 4 corners) on a everyday car? Interested in knowing about reliability, noise, or quirks that would show up that would need to be taken into account. Thanks.

[GregWeld]

The one thing with coil overs is that they can have a lack of travel. So in a daily driver - where you might tend to want to have a full tank of gas -- load up the trunk with luggage and then 4 people and off you go.... you can be bottoming out. I stayed with leaf springs on my new chassis in my '37 Ford for this very reason.

Coil overs are "tunable" for height (like plus or minus about 1/2" or so up and down) and most use them for ride height over the ride "quality". On cars that are going to be used to "handle" -- this is the system to go with. But Mary Pozzi was a National Champion auto crosser and her car used leaf springs!

My brother in laws '69 Camaro -- pro street -- is on leaf springs and I'm trying to get him to switch to coil overs -- it "cleans up" the rear end area and makes the car appear a little more 'modern' and we can then adjust ride height and get it really dialed in... but his car works just fine with leafs.

If your going to make your car a really nice handler - bring it up to 'date' - improve the resale - etc -- then coil overs would help in all of those areas... but I'm just saying that they aren't "required" to give you a good ride or handling. SPRINGS really just hold the car up... and leaf springs hold the rear end into position (side to side loads). It's really more important to get these springs "right" for the weight and use regardless of whether or not they're coils or leafs. It's just easier with coils.

Look at SpeedTech - or DSE - or BMR - or other manufacturers - they all have kits for conversions etc. Then it's a matter of budget and what you want to do.

[narlee]

Thanks for the response. From what I understand to get the same handling out of leaf springs the ride begins to suffer. There are several interesting coil over packages but I haven't found how they hold up. I don't want to find out too late there long term issues.

[GregWeld]

In all my years - I've never heard a single complaint about coil overs. They're a marvelously simple shock and spring... I would however - stay away from QA 1's --- Strange makes a far superior unit. Amazing really how much my Nomads ride improved when I changed over to Strange from QA 1's.

[ccracin]

Good info Greg. You can get around bottoming with longer free length springs and longer stroke shocks. The problem with retro-fits is packaging. Most don't want to make the compromises and do the fabrication it takes to put the longer package in. You can do it on a first gen, but the top coil over mounts would have to be in the trunk without making the lower mount too low. I believe Steve Rupp and the Pozzi's did this to Bad Penny. Just food for thought. Also as Greg said, leafs are nothing to turn your nose up at. Especially if you use purpose built performance leaves and properly tuned shocks. Great ride and handling with very little fabrication. I don't want to confuse you narlee, but there are several ways to get where you want to be. Oh, and durability is not an issue with either setup. Don't sweat it! Good luck!

[narlee]

This is the type information I was looking for. I hadn't seen anything about bottoming out previously. It makes sense it could be a problem if there isn't enough travel. Thanks.

[Vegas69]

The one thing with coil overs is that they can have a lack of travel. So in a daily driver - where you might tend to want to have a full tank of gas -- load up the trunk with luggage and then 4 people and off you go.... you can be bottoming out. I stayed with leaf springs on my new chassis in my '37 Ford for this very reason.

Coil overs are "tunable" for height (like plus or minus about 1/2" or so up and down) and most use them for ride height over the ride "quality". On cars that are going to be used to "handle" -- this is the system to go with. But Mary Pozzi was a National Champion auto crosser and her car used leaf springs!

My brother in laws '69 Camaro -- pro street -- is on leaf springs and I'm trying to get him to switch to coil overs -- it "cleans up" the rear end area and makes the car appear a little more 'modern' and we can then adjust ride height and get it really dialed in... but his car works just fine with leafs.

If your going to make your car a really nice handler - bring it up to 'date' - improve the resale - etc -- then coil overs would help in all of those areas... but I'm just saying that they aren't "required" to give you a good ride or handling. SPRINGS really just hold the car up... and leaf springs hold the rear end into position (side to side loads). It's really more important to get these springs "right" for the weight and use regardless of whether or not they're coils or leafs. It's just easier with coils.

Look at SpeedTech - or DSE - or BMR - or other manufacturers - they all have kits for conversions etc. Then it's a matter of budget and what you want to do.

The only reason they bottom out is due to folks getting greedy with the adjuster wrench. Keep a shock in it's sweet spot with the correct spring rate and you won't have any problems. 50/50 shock travel available for compression and extension. If you want to go lower, modify your shock mount and you can still keep it in the sweet spot.

Personally, bottoming out a coil over with a jounce bumper is not any worse than hitting a bad bump with leaf springs.

[jamesinark]

Right now I'm in the setup and configuring suspension geometry (changing pickup points for control arms and such) on my second gen Camaro RS.I have finally settled on the rear suspension setup (a Torque arm that I am currently fabbing up).My question is directed to Greg as in what did you find to be some of the upsides to the Strange c/o's as opposed to the QA1's?I am currently going to be using the Strange 12 bolt rear housing and most of the internals will be strange.Anyway I was really thinking about using the Strange coilovers and couldn't find a comparison between the two.It seems as if most of the guys on here are using the QA1 c/o's and then I read something that Frank Savitske(I hope I spelled it right) wrote concerning them and touting Afco shocks instead.I think that the Strange c/o's seem to be of high quality and not to shabby a price.That is very important when something like Penskes are a little out of reach if I want anything else done to the car.Any info about the reasons you found them to be a better choice would be greatly appreciated.Thanks!

[marolf101x]

I suggest you look at our new impact forged, monotube, Fox Racing Shox based coil overs:
http://www.ridetech.com/store/coil-overs/

If you've seen the Ford Raptor pick up truck you've seen the same parts and technology that's in our units, and Ford certified them to over 100K miles.

Our coil overs are tested past 300ips (inches per second) shaft velocity, which is WAY more then you'll ever see on the street. As an example a pothole will typically provide around 50ips. So you can be assured even if you hit something really, really hard the shock will not be the point of failure!

Pair these shocks with a set of very high quality Hyperco springs and you've got a killer combination. The Hyperco springs use high tensile steel which results in less coils for a given rate. This means, even on short strokes, you have more room between the coils, so you are less likely to reach coil bind before the shock bottoms out.

[bret]

I have the Triple Adjustable coilovers on the 48 Hour Camaro with a 600# spring in the fron and a 250# in the rear. I'm using a stock front subframe and our bolt in 4 link in the rear. I must say, the car rides beautifully...much better than my Z06, approaching my CTS V Cadillac. And that is with a 35 series tire!
I would not necessarily recommend the triples for a daily driver...no need for all that hardware or expense...the NA or SA shocks will do everything you need, and then some.

Keep asking around...I know there are a few guys on this forum with the RideTech coilovers who can offer an opinion on ride quality...

[narlee]

Would I have any problems with bottoming out with a load? It would be like Greg mentioned, loaded for a trip or with a car load of people.

[marolf101x]

Let's use an example:
1969 Camaro; stock suspension (5-inches travel front; 5-inches travel rear)
1969 Camaro; coil overs (5-inches travel front; 5-inches travel rear)

There is only one thing potentially different between these two cars. . .spring rate (and it may be the same).

So, if either car is set up for a ride height with two people (driver and passenger) and a plush ride (low spring rate), they may both experience bottoming out if enough weight is added to the vehicle (especially in the rear as the spring rate is lighter than the front).

Take the same two cars and put higher spring rates in them for a more performance vehicle, and the bottoming out will not be as severe when weight is added.

As you can see, if the travel remains the same there is virtually no difference as both cars have 5-inches of travel and springs holding them up.

Now, if you are truly concerned with changes in load affecting ride quality you need a coil over with an adjustable spring rate. . .which just happens to be our Shockwave unit. It doesn't care how much weight is on the vehicle as it can adapt to each situation.

[Jr]

Narlee,

I hope you find what you are looking for. For me, for example, I plan on changing my air bag suspension (which is perfectly fine for my daily driving) to ride techs coil-over setup as soon as they release it for my 70 chevy pick-up. I know that ride tech test their product far beyond the limits of my driving/trucks ability. I would personally go with a front and rear setup from the same manufacturer. For example, ride tech, hot chkis, or art Morrison.

David

[SLO_Z28]

One thing to compare with the coil overs to the leaf springs, is that leaf springs are progressive rate, that means that the more they're loaded the more rate they get, which is better for the dynamic loading mentioned earlier. Front coil overs don't perform BETTER and a traditional setup, but they do the same thing weighing less. You can have ride height adjustability without a coil over too, I have traditional style springs in a bucket that adjust the installed height, that way I can adjust the ride height(and cross weights) by adjusting the installed height of the spring with no cutting and no special tools.

[narlee]

So many cars run coil rear springs, are they progressive springs or do they calculate the best rate for overall use?

[ord27]

one thing that I was planning for my future build was to use the F55 magnetic ride control system from a donor CTS-V or Zo6. What do you guys think ?
Mine will be a daily driver too. I am wanting the best of both worlds, comfort and performance.
sorry if I hijacked the thread. It just seems like the same type of question

[marolf101x]

The magnetorheological shocks are a great idea for ride quality and sport feel. However, I can tell you that the computer and software running these things are very much tuned to each vehicle (we work with the OEM supplier of these shocks). Though it may work I have a feeling the first attempts will be like trying to put the fuel injection from one motor onto another relatively different motor. Will it run? Maybe. Will it run correctly? Likely not.

I cannot wait for someone to try them. We've been playing with some stuff for a while, but I'd like to see someone fit them in their garage.

The MR shocks do not address the weight problem, however. The shock can only control how fast or slow the suspension moves. It is the job of the spring to hold the vehicle up.

[GregWeld]

The magnetorheological shocks are a great idea for ride quality and sport feel. However, I can tell you that the computer and software running these things are very much tuned to each vehicle (we work with the OEM supplier of these shocks). Though it may work I have a feeling the first attempts will be like trying to put the fuel injection from one motor onto another relatively different motor. Will it run? Maybe. Will it run correctly? Likely not.

I cannot wait for someone to try them. We've been playing with some stuff for a while, but I'd like to see someone fit them in their garage.

The MR shocks do not address the weight problem, however. The shock can only control how fast or slow the suspension moves. It is the job of the spring to hold the vehicle up.


STIELOWS NEXT PROJECT CAR!

[BBC71Nova]

HA! That's exactly what I was thinking too Greg...

[coolwelder62]

As a guy who has used QA1'a,Strange,Afco,And ridetech.The ride tech's are far better ride qualtiy than any of the other's I have used.You will be much happier w/ the ride tech's in ride qualtiy,Build qualtiy,Customer service.The ride tech's also come w/mounting spacer's,which is a real nice option.:thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

As a guy who has used QA1'a,Strange,Afco,And ridetech.The ride tech's are far better ride qualtiy than any of the other's I have used.You will be much happier w/ the ride tech's in ride qualtiy,Build qualtiy,Customer service.The ride tech's also come w/mounting spacer's,which is a real nice option.:thumbsup:

How big is that check every month? :lol:

[narlee]

I have done some more checking and it looks like the some rear coil springs aren't progressive so I would think if I had the correct spring on the coilover it would be the same effect. Maybe not as good as a progressive coil or leaf spring for adjusting for weight but fine for 4 people in the car. I don't hang with fat chicks so should be good to go. Am I missing anything?

[jamesinark]

I have looked around on here and a couple of other sites and they seem to be the best all around buy for the money and they are very well liked by everyone who has changed to them from another brand.You guys think the single adjustable will be able to provide me with enough adjustment for fairly hard street use and occasional track use?As far as progressive rate c/o springs I have ran across them in my Southwest Speed catalog and am under the impression that they can manufacture them with different rates available.You can see if they are still available at www.southwestspeed.com.Can't hurt to check.I may see about them myself for converting my wifes car ('02 Trans Am) to full coilover shocks.

[Bryce]

My DD 2000 durango will have ridetech coilovers on it in the next few years, I need to save up first.

My DD 95 mustang has coilovers in the front and adjsutable spring perches in the back. I love the way I was able dial in the ride height.

[ssick chevelle]

In all my years - I've never heard a single complaint about coil overs. They're a marvelously simple shock and spring... I would however - stay away from QA 1's --- Strange makes a far superior unit. Amazing really how much my Nomads ride improved when I changed over to Strange from QA 1's.

Hey i have a 56 being reassembled now with a c4 front and rear suspension
I went with the promastar single adjustable. my car happens to be being buil solely for a daily driver. can you please go more into depth on your strange vs qai experience. Please and thank ya

[GregWeld]

I don't really know anything about shocks etc.... so I can't possibly tell you why one rode so much better than the other -- but the very first drive with the Strange on was OMG noticeably better. Smoother... yet subtly firmer but without any harshness. Think - Euro high end ride.

I got mine from my buddies at Art Morrison's --- and they know their stuff -- and if they're good enough for them to use on their chassis.... I'm going along with that.

[rogergrubb]

Greg, were your QA's and Strange shocks apples to apples? Both double adjustable/single adj./non-adjustable?

I'm shopping right now for the best coilover for my '65 Chevelle and I absolutely loved my Koni Sports single adjustable coilovers on my V8 914.
Nitrogen charged shocks have always felt better to me on the street with a nice firm rebound dialed in.



I don't really know anything about shocks etc.... so I can't possibly tell you why one rode so much better than the other -- but the very first drive with the Strange on was OMG noticeably better. Smoother... yet subtly firmer but without any harshness. Think - Euro high end ride.

I got mine from my buddies at Art Morrison's --- and they know their stuff -- and if they're good enough for them to use on their chassis.... I'm going along with that.

[marolf101x]

Roger,

If you like monotube nitrogen charged shocks and lots of rebound let me know and I'll send you a dyno graph. (or you can search on here and Pro-Touring, we've posted quite a few).
We are so confident in our products we are the only shock supplier offering a 100,000,001 mile warranty.

[GregWeld]

Greg, were your QA's and Strange shocks apples to apples? Both double adjustable/single adj./non-adjustable?

I'm shopping right now for the best coilover for my '65 Chevelle and I absolutely loved my Koni Sports single adjustable coilovers on my V8 914.
Nitrogen charged shocks have always felt better to me on the street with a nice firm rebound dialed in.




Roger --- Both sets are single adjustable.


BTW --- RideTech wasn't in the damper business back when I swapped out or I certainly would have considered their products.

[rogergrubb]

Sure, love to see it. Thank you.
[email protected]


Roger,

If you like monotube nitrogen charged shocks and lots of rebound let me know and I'll send you a dyno graph. (or you can search on here and Pro-Touring, we've posted quite a few).
We are so confident in our products we are the only shock supplier offering a 100,000,001 mile warranty.

[marolf101x]

Roger,

I sent an e-mail asking what you are planning for the car? Do you want a cruiser, an autocrosser, or a full on race car? Each has it's own force requirements.
Here's a link to our "standard" valve codes from a while back (post #12).
We've been playing with a lot more rebound since then on the track cars.
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?87409-idiots-guide-to-shocks

What I've found is that you don't want much compression damping in a street car. You want the spring to handle this. You do, however, want more rebound to help "slow down" the spring after it compresses.

[rogergrubb]

got it, thank you.



Roger,

I sent an e-mail asking what you are planning for the car? Do you want a cruiser, an autocrosser, or a full on race car? Each has it's own force requirements.
Here's a link to our "standard" valve codes from a while back (post #12).
We've been playing with a lot more rebound since then on the track cars.
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?87409-idiots-guide-to-shocks

What I've found is that you don't want much compression damping in a street car. You want the spring to handle this. You do, however, want more rebound to help "slow down" the spring after it compresses.