I knew I liked Adam Carolla for some reason.. His take on the OWS Generation. LOL

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

I knew I liked Adam Carolla, and now I know why... He nailed on the head here in his rant, there is a bit of profanity involved, but the message is spot on..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cJD8pZiRIzs

cJD8pZiRIzs

[qnitro]

I Love This Interview

[73CPCAMARO]

:thumbsup: :cheers: :woot:

[Al Moreno]

That was really good stuff! I think though that if you edit out all "F" words, you can shorten the interview from 9 minutes down to 2, LOL. :D

[booah]

Spot on and in Australia its the exact same thing. There's no such thing as failing and staying back another year in school. Taxes, same thing here.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

That was really good stuff! I think though that if you edit out all "F" words, you can shorten the interview from 9 minutes down to 2, LOL. :D

Probably true, but if you notice, that is the form of communication that the generation he is talking about understands. If it was someone in a suit, with proper vocabulary, I dont think they would even listen.. ha ha Atleast I hope a few of them listen and catch a clue.

I must say though, he is all over the map when it comes to explaining why and how these generations have come to be, but it does nicely tie in all together. I am also a child of the 70's-80's, and I have witnessed pretty well everything he is talking about.. I remember seeing other kids get the special treatment (ass douche), and I can honestly say, I appreciate the fact it didnt happen to me.. LOL

[MattO]

Probably true, but if you notice, that is the form of communication that the generation he is talking about understands. If it was someone in a suit, with proper vocabulary, I dont think they would even listen.. ha ha Atleast I hope a few of them listen and catch a clue.



It's sad but true. My generation swears more than any of them before. I talk like a sailor and I'm really trying to get better at it.

I can't agree with this rant more. I'm only allowed to press the 'Like' button once... :lol:

I'm personally embarrassed by these OWS brats. Bunch of whiny little pricks who don't understand why their degree in liberal arts didn't help them get a job. Life isn't fair, at all. Many of them need to learn this lesson. I worked very hard to get what I have and I'm ashamed at the thought that THIS might be the movement that defines my generation.


Just... yeah, I'm going to walk away from the computer and lower my blood pressure. I get so pissed at the mere thought of these idiots... :willy:

[Sieg]

Probably true, but if you notice, that is the form of communication that the generation he is talking about understands. If it was someone in a suit, with proper vocabulary, I dont think they would even listen.. ha ha Atleast I hope a few of them listen and catch a clue.

I must say though, he is all over the map when it comes to explaining why and how these generations have come to be, but it does nicely tie in all together. I am also a child of the 70's-80's, and I have witnessed pretty well everything he is talking about.. I remember seeing other kids get the special treatment (ass douche), and I can honestly say, I appreciate the fact it didnt happen to me.. LOL

I was thinking his delivery was a little extreme, but then I remembered the audience his message is directed at. IMO his theory is on target.

[intocarss]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Track Junky]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[NOPANTS68]

Yep that's my boy. Been listening to him for 10 years. Not exactly words to live by, but it's nice to see at least one celebrity in LA with common sense. See his stand up live if you get a chance as it's a much funnier version of what's been posted here. Way to go Ace.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Here is a funny thing, and I guess it shows a more liberal scew, but I posted this same video on another forum, and it is getting a whole other response.. It is a Volvo Group, which I guess tends to be more liberal.. LOL Some of the things said in objection, just blows my mind that anyone can think that.

[Sandbagger]

Top 1% of tax payers ,pay 50% of the taxes .
Is that accurate ? Where did this data come from , the Mark & Brian show ?
I dont think so ...
Is the system that screwed up ?Lived in Oxnard for six years .
You can keep it .

[MattO]

1% pay 36.7% of total individual income taxes paid and earn 16.9% of the Adjusted Gross Income (AGI).

EDIT: In 2009

[GregWeld]

Wow.... he's spot on.

I typed up an entire page here - then deleted it all. I'll just keep my mouth shut. :_paranoid

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Wow.... he's spot on.

I typed up an entire page here - then deleted it all. I'll just keep my mouth shut. :_paranoid

Me too.. That is about as real as you can get, and I have much respect for anyone in the spotlight that will spell it out.. I would have loved to have been there to witness this speech, it would have been priceless.. I wonder if anyone recorded it, there is nothing like a truthful and uplifting speech.. I know a few of the academic under achievers, and he summed them up perfectly... LOL

[Track Junky]

Thanks for sharing. Definitley something to copy, save, and share with my kids when it is time. I dont agree with his definition of fortunate/lucky though or maybe I just misinterpeted it. The fortunate/lucky are the ones that were prepared, recognized when the opportunity presented itself, and then ran with it. The old saying "lucky is when preperation meets opportunity"

Some people dont get the proper direction or help when young due to the atmosphere they were brought up in. What would be the definition for that scenario? In order to make a positive choice, you need to be able to recognize that choice is available to you.

Maybe I'm off base here. I understand he was giving a speech among graduates but in my opinion I do believe in luck and being fortunate. IMO the graduates were lucky to have peers/parents/support/etc that helped steer and push them in a positve direction. The graduates were lucky to know that the opportunities and choices were there.

None the less, a great speech.

[hectore3]

In some respects Mr. Corrola is right about the "me" generations with all the mandatory trophies and such. But where the wheels fall off his argument is the blind worship of those who "built" the company.

There are legions of companies who have moved all operations overseas to China and those jobs are never coming back. This has been happening in particular in the midwest of this country for decades. It's just that really recently it has started to really bite at the heels of the upper middle class and their children. A college degree means little when now professional jobs can be outsourced. And student loans are forever.

If one has to work their tail off as Mr. Corrola says I'm in complete agreement with that 100 percent. But at the same time banks and corporations cannot gamble with their shareholders money and then be recapitalized with our tax revenue with no reprecussions. The have turned capitalism into a cruel joke. Corporate welfare has cost us more than anything ever.

Seems to me the ultimate form of free money has gone to the financial sector in the trillions of dollars/euro's/pounds. I don't agree with the tactics of the OWS crowd. But I must admit they are the canary in the coal mine regarding the general feeling to the powers that be.

Mr. Corolla is apparently telling a partial truth as this whole ball of wax is much more complicated than he has described.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

In some respects Mr. Corrola is right about the "me" generations with all the mandatory trophies and such. But where the wheels fall off his argument is the blind worship of those who "built" the company.

There are legions of companies who have moved all operations overseas to China and those jobs are never coming back. This has been happening in particular in the midwest of this country for decades. It's just that really recently it has started to really bite at the heels of the upper middle class and their children. A college degree means little when now professional jobs can be outsourced. And student loans are forever.

If one has to work their tail off as Mr. Corrola says I'm in complete agreement with that 100 percent. But at the same time banks and corporations cannot gamble with their shareholders money and then be recapitalized with our tax revenue with no reprecussions. The have turned capitalism into a cruel joke. Corporate welfare has cost us more than anything ever.

Seems to me the ultimate form of free money has gone to the financial sector in the trillions of dollars/euro's/pounds. I don't agree with the tactics of the OWS crowd. But I must admit they are the canary in the coal mine regarding the general feeling to the powers that be.

Mr. Corolla is apparently telling a partial truth as this whole ball of wax is much more complicated than he has described.

I think you are missing the point.. He is talking about the successful invidual and not coporations. He is talking about the individuals in your community that have done well for themselves, and earned the luxury or toys the acquired..

His statements have nothing to do about figures, it has to do with the lack of common sense mentality of the me generation. Even if you listen to the reasoning of the other side, Equality is not in their vocabulary..

[D Rock]

"There's something that's come up in this country that didn't used to exist, which is envy, and it's a big issue. We are now dealing with the first wave of participation-trophy, my-own-fecal-matter-doesn't-stink, empowered . . . everybody's-a-winner, there-are-no-losers — we are dealing with the first wave of those [expletive] a**holes. That's who we're dealing with now."

Carolla seems to miss the point to me. All the name calling and bashing do not touch on the real issues at all and are distractions. OWS isn't pissed that some people are driving nice cars and they aren't, completely irrelevant. These people don't want a rolls Royce or Ferrari, they don't look up at these people with envy, rather down with disgust because our fellow brothers and sisters around the world are starving.

You must instinctively understand that everything you have in your home, came from somewhere, at a cost of someones time and energy. Would some of this energy used for our blind consumerism be better used in the stomach of a starving child, or healthcare for the sick?? Some certainly think so.

Perhaps lateral-g is a good representation of this as we don't think twice about spending thousands on some billet aluminum that gives us pleasure for a week or two, but Africa?? F**k them they can all starve to death for all we care.

So back to OWS, some of these people have worked to get through school, now graduate in mortgage levels of school loans, and cannot find jobs. I might be a little pissy too if I was in their position. The banks more or less have created a "Degree" Bubble, much like the housing bubble. We push for everyone to go to college, give them low interest loans, and openly accept any dumbass into the universities these days. Surprise surprise, now everyone has a degree and they are worthless.

As far as individual responsibility, there are four main factors that determine how much you will make in your lifetime:

1. Year you were born
2. Country you were born in
3. Circumstance
4. Work Ethic

Many baby boomers of today are extremely wealthly(compared to the rest of the world) for one main reason, the US hit its peak oil in 1970. We had an abundance of cheap energy that we could sell to the world and use as we please, and everyone profited.

If you really think that how hard you work determines income, consider you were born in China 300 years ago and worked the same amount you have your whole life, your income figures would be way different.


Something struck a chord? Remember the truth knows no sensitivity!

Looking forward to an open minded discussion

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Quote Carolla seems to miss the point to me. All the name calling and bashing do not touch on the real issues at all and are distractions. OWS isn't pissed that some people are driving nice cars and they aren't, completely irrelevant. These people don't want a rolls Royce or Ferrari, they don't look up at these people with envy, rather down with disgust because our fellow brothers and sisters around the world are starving.

You must instinctively understand that everything you have in your home, came from somewhere, at a cost of someones time and energy. Would some of this energy used for our blind consumerism be better used in the stomach of a starving child, or healthcare for the sick?? Some certainly think so.

Perhaps lateral-g is a good representation of this as we don't think twice about spending thousands on some billet aluminum that gives us pleasure for a week or two, but Africa?? F**k them they can all starve to death for all we care.

So back to OWS, some of these people have worked to get through school, now graduate in mortgage levels of school loans, and cannot find jobs. I might be a little pissy too if I was in their position. The banks more or less have created a "Degree" Bubble, much like the housing bubble. We push for everyone to go to college, give them low interest loans, and openly accept any dumbass into the universities these days. Surprise surprise, now everyone has a degree and they are worthless. End Quote



Ok here is the deal.. You are correct about the sensitivity, so please understhand that you have incorporated sensitivity into your statment.. Now as far as the OWS protestor go, it may have started out as Corporate, but it has gone to the individual also.

Anyone with a brain, should be careful as to what degree they decide to go for.. It is very very easy to know if your diploma will be worthless or not, so I am tired of hearing about that plight. If you were intelligent enough to go to college, you should have been intelligent enough to make an conscience decision about your future. Liberal Arts, isnt going to do a damn thing in the real world, so dont get mad if it doesnt get you where you want to go..

As far as what I, or others work hard for. I do understand what you saying to a degree, and I do my part to help my fellow man. If you really feel that way, then you should not spend a single penny on anything that would be considered a novelty or luxury.. Donate your excess and time to the causes you speak of, or else you are just as guilty as the people you are pointing to. By your own statement, it is a plight that you feel strongly about, along with trying to point guilt, but you personally are killing people if you dont give everything you possibly can also.. So, I hope you can sleep at night, because you spent money on a nice dinner or wheels..

[parsonsj]

As far as individual responsibility, there are four main factors that determine how much you will make in your lifetime:

1. Year you were born
2. Country you were born in
3. Circumstance
4. Work Ethic

Maybe this is what you meant by "circumstance", but the attribute rich (1%) people have that correlates the strongest statistically speaking is that their parents were rich.

IOW, if you are in the top 1% income-earning in the US, the thing about you and all your fellow 1 per centers that is most in common is that you had rich parents. Intelligence, education, effort, and talent matter. But not as much as luck. :)

[camcojb]

Maybe this is what you meant by "circumstance", but the attribute rich (1%) people have that correlates the strongest statistically speaking is that their parents were rich.

IOW, if you are in the top 1% income-earning in the US, the thing about you and all your fellow 1 per centers that is most in common is that you had rich parents. Intelligence, education, effort, and talent matter. But not as much as luck. :)

that may be true John, but the only two people I know who I'm comfortable calling 1%ers both made their money without help from parents or family.

[XcYZ]

The OWS crowd is the 1% to the rest of the population of the world. How ironic.

[98ssnova]

:cheers: where is the popcorn smilies

[parsonsj]

The OWS crowd is the 1% to the rest of the population of the world. How ironic.I don't know about irony, but the only reason most of these people have the luxury (and right) of protesting is that they were born in this country within the past 60 years or so. Another example of luck.

[Van B]

If you were intelligent enough to go to college, you should have been intelligent enough to make an conscience decision about your future.

Didn't go, eh?

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Didn't go, eh?

No I didnt.. I took about a year off of school out of high school, and made too much money to qualify for assistance, and couldnt take the pay cut while attending.. LOL To be honest, I noticed then it would take 6-8 years of school to get a diploma that made a major difference in income potentia, so I made a conscience decision not to pursue that avenue.. I gained experience and education in various fields, and got technical training through the General Motors Training Programs..

[D Rock]

Anyone with a brain, should be careful as to what degree they decide to go for.. It is very very easy to know if your diploma will be worthless or not, so I am tired of hearing about that plight. If you were intelligent enough to go to college, you should have been intelligent enough to make an conscience decision about your future. Liberal Arts, isnt going to do a damn thing in the real world, so dont get mad if it doesnt get you where you want to go..

These are kids that are 18 going off to college, you would have to have huge oversight to predict where the markets for your degree will be in 4 years. But that is still besides the point, the devaluation of college degrees through saturation of the market is there, no matter what the field.

As far as what I, or others work hard for. I do understand what you saying to a degree, and I do my part to help my fellow man. If you really feel that way, then you should not spend a single penny on anything that would be considered a novelty or luxury.. Donate your excess and time to the causes you speak of, or else you are just as guilty as the people you are pointing to. By your own statement, it is a plight that you feel strongly about, along with trying to point guilt, but you personally are killing people if you dont give everything you possibly can also.. So, I hope you can sleep at night, because you spent money on a nice dinner or wheels.

I agree, a man who doesn't live by his convictions is not a man by all in my standards. However I don't believe the problem starts with the person, more than anything we are conditioned by the environment we live in. And this game that surrounds us, the game of whoever has the most stuff, the most expensive stuff, the rarest stuff, is just that, a game. With that said i'm not trying to point guilt at anyone, maybe just open some eyelids a little.

[Sieg]

:cheers: where is the popcorn smilies

http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/lurker.gifhttp://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/lurker.gifhttp://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/lurker.gifhttp://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/lurker.gifhttp://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/lurker.gif

:thumbsup:

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

These are kids that are 18 going off to college, you would have to have huge oversight to predict where the markets for your degree will be in 4 years. But that is still besides the point, the devaluation of college degrees through saturation of the market is there, no matter what the field.


I dont think it is that hard to pick a direction, and find out what the income and job opening potential is.. But there is no way that you can tell me, that someone picking an education and life direction, shouldnt do a bit of research into it? Really? I do understand about the Devaluation of a college diploma, and that is one of the reasons I chose not to go. I wasnt going to dedicate the extra years and expense to get the supplimental paper it took to stand out of the College Degree crowd.



I agree, a man who doesn't live by his convictions is not a man by all in my standards. However I don't believe the problem starts with the person, more than anything we are conditioned by the environment we live in. And this game that surrounds us, the game of whoever has the most stuff, the most expensive stuff, the rarest stuff, is just that, a game. With that said i'm not trying to point guilt at anyone, maybe just open some eyelids a little.

For some of us, it isnt a game at all, it is an art form. Some of us appreciate the vehicles, and or its components, for just what they are. Some of my favorite cars are not the most popular, and I do the things purely for the appreciation of the car and industry. Sure there are a few people on here that pay for things for status, and dont do their own work or design, but I am betting they are far and few between on here..

[Van B]

No I didnt.. I took about a year off of school out of high school, and made too much money to qualify for assistance, and couldnt take the pay cut while attending.. LOL To be honest, I noticed then it would take 6-8 years of school to get a diploma that made a major difference in income potentia, so I made a conscience decision not to pursue that avenue.. I gained experience and education in various fields, and got technical training through the General Motors Training Programs..

Glad you took my comment in the way it was intended, just a fun little jab. I am a freak on spelling and context. Drives me nuts to see the errors in the magazines I read each month.

I probably could have gotten where I am today without the degree, but it was what probably opened the door...

[GregWeld]

And this game that surrounds us, the game of whoever has the most stuff, the most expensive stuff, the rarest stuff, is just that, a game. With that said i'm not trying to point guilt at anyone, maybe just open some eyelids a little.



Well thank god! Hey Charley.... WE'VE been declared winners!!


EEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA:rofl: :rofl: :woot:

[Vegas69]

The man with the most toys when he dies, wins!:lol:

[Al Moreno]

The man with the most toys when he dies, wins!:lol:


I read a billboard once that said " The man that dies with the most toys is still dead" LOL:_paranoid

[Track Junky]

The man with the most toys when he dies, wins!:lol:

:yes: :yes: :yes: :lol:

[GregWeld]

I'll tell you what scares me - for humanity in general - is how many people lack adequate (or anything for that matter) retirement funds.... With the average age stretching out to be around 90 years old. If you retire at 65... that's a very, very long time to be retired. It takes a healthy bank account to live that long in retirement!

People need to stop asking "how much do you make" and start asking - how much are you saving?

[Amatouring]

Well thank god! Hey Charley.... WE'VE been declared winners!!


EEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA:rofl: :rofl: :woot:

At least the rest of us should get a participant medal!!!:D

[98ssnova]

I'll tell you what scares me - for humanity in general - is how many people lack adequate (or anything for that matter) retirement funds.... With the average age stretching out to be around 90 years old. If you retire at 65... that's a very, very long time to be retired. It takes a healthy bank account to live that long in retirement!

People need to stop asking "how much do you make" and start asking - how much are you saving?

I though that is what social security is for:D

[Chad-1stGen]

Neal Boortz Texas A&M Graduation Address – 2008 : Worth the read
This Texas lawyer, himself recipient of an Honorary Degree, is obviously opinionated, but to say what he did, in a commencement address, in front of a class of Texas A & M graduates, and especially the faculty, is amazing.

Yes it is amazing and like most things on the internet that seem too good to be true so is this.

According to snopes this was never given in a comencement speach. Rather, Neal Boortz wrote it in protest of never having been invited to give a comencment speach after even Kermit the Frog was invited.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/boortz.asp

[realcoray]

I don't disagree with Adam about the people you see that represent the protestors. I remember seeing a ton of pictures of people who were like 100k in debt because of school, getting english degrees and blaming anyone but themselves. I understand at that age you have no concept of the real world but people need to accept responsibility for the decisions they make.

However at the same time, it's terribly naive to say, oh work hard and you can be one of the richest people. Nothing is ever simple, especially getting rich and then being able to enjoy it (saving until you're 80 and having a million dollars then doesn't count).

Why should someone who makes tens of millions of dollars a year pay a lower percentage than I do? Because they can afford a team of lawyers? Why should companies like Boeing get tax refunds instead of paying taxes when the small company I work for ends up paying 35%?

The game is rigged and no, it's not even in the favor of low buck millionaires, let alone someone making the median of like 50k.

[GregWeld]

I don't disagree with Adam about the people you see that represent the protestors. I remember seeing a ton of pictures of people who were like 100k in debt because of school, getting english degrees and blaming anyone but themselves. I understand at that age you have no concept of the real world but people need to accept responsibility for the decisions they make.

However at the same time, it's terribly naive to say, oh work hard and you can be one of the richest people. Nothing is ever simple, especially getting rich and then being able to enjoy it (saving until you're 80 and having a million dollars then doesn't count).

Why should someone who makes tens of millions of dollars a year pay a lower percentage than I do? Because they can afford a team of lawyers? Why should companies like Boeing get tax refunds instead of paying taxes when the small company I work for ends up paying 35%?

The game is rigged and no, it's not even in the favor of low buck millionaires, let alone someone making the median of like 50k.


I think the facts need to be checked before making statements like this. I'm not picking a fight with you personally -- but I hear this same crap all the time and it's just that. Pure crap.

There is a good article - that I found by simply asking GOOGLE - DO WEALTHY PEOPLE PAY LESS TAXES... and I picked kinda the first one on the list that looked legitimate.

Here's the link to that - and it's just one article of MANY.. that use FACTS (mostly the U.S. Governments own data) to dispel this misinformation.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/chart-of-the-day-do-the-rich-really-pay-less-in-taxes/245531/



Personally -- I live off my dividend and bond income, and income from an apartment complex... and yes -- it's a very large income. And yes - the taxes on dividends are "only" 15% (Qualified dividends) and the taxes on my MUNI BONDS are tax free. For that "tax free" status - I receive substantially less income (on a laddered bond portfolio I get about 4% in interest). Now -- I'm not going to write a book on INVESTING and returns and taxes etc. But I will tell you that if people like me didn't buy school bonds - and road improvement bonds etc... then you wouldn't be very happy because there'd be NO MONEY to build all that stuff you enjoy. There is a direct benefit to society by cities/counties/state governments paying a lower financing cost... In order to attract people to invest in these (bonds) - they come with the tax free status. BUT -- there's always a big BUTT in the room.... I'm an "investor".... some of those "investments" are complete busts... I don't get any write off for those. Oh yeah -- I can claim 3 grand a year - for about eternity... Some investments return some of my money after 4 or 5 years... and once in awhile you hit the mother lode. Now - I'm going to attempt to explain the VALUE to society with one of my latest "hits" as a real life example. An investment 6+ years ago in a start up that had about 50 employees - but was running low on cash - needed some "help" both financially and with management (that's what they get when guys like me invest - they get MONEY and they get BRAINS and they get CONNECTIONS). That company was sold last year when it had almost 500 employees -- 100 of which came away with ONE MILLION DOLLARS OR MORE.... Many more had somewhere less than a million bucks... some poor bastard might have "only" got half a million. What a shame. You know what? All of the cash was taxed at ORDINARY INCOME TAX RATES. The return on my initial investment was substantial -- it was taxed as LONG TERM CAPITAL GAINS (15%) -- but the other shares I owned were taxed at ordinary income. Several people could retire on what I paid in income taxes last year - and several more could on what my tax bill will be this year. If you want to calculate in absolute percentage terms I paid about 32%...


I guess this discussion is really about a battle between the haves and the have nots... and I just don't think it's as simple as that. There is a reason why people succeed and some don't. Education, willingness to 'gamble' on their careers (I know people that have turned down great opportunities because they didn't want to move)... willingness to learn... and grow...the ability to SEE the opportunity that is before them. Let's take a framer... some guys will always just be framers. What is it that separates them from the guy that started as a framer and is now a general contractor?

To me - it's kinda like the people that only see NASA as a giant play toy for the astronauts. They see no purpose in building things to fly to outer space. But others see it for all the "stuff" that they've invented during their attempts to do more and fly farther. I can't name 'em - but I know there's just a whole slew of stuff that we wouldn't have without NASA. Another example is auto racing. Many people just see it as a giant toy box - yet "we" here know about the stuff they do that trickles down to todays cars.

It's just never as simple as "1% vs the 99%".... or the "I pay more (or less) taxes than someone else".


Hope that makes some "sense"... sometimes there just isn't a good or perfect explanation. This isn't the old communist China... where you had the rulers that lived like kings and "everybody else". It's America... there's a reward for risk - there's "incentives" to invest - there's opportunity to change your own life. Sometimes those risks/changes don't work out... some people get up and do it all over again - some give up and whine - some keep walkin' around wishin' and hoping' but never taking action. Some just blame others for their lives not going per their dreams.

[camcojb]

I think the facts need to be checked before making statements like this. I'm not picking a fight with you personally -- but I hear this same crap all the time and it's just that. Pure crap.

There is a good article - that I found by simply asking GOOGLE - DO WEALTHY PEOPLE PAY LESS TAXES... and I picked kinda the first one on the list that looked legitimate.

Here's the link to that - and it's just one article of MANY.. that use FACTS (mostly the U.S. Governments own data) to dispel this misinformation.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/chart-of-the-day-do-the-rich-really-pay-less-in-taxes/245531/



Personally -- I live off my dividend and bond income, and income from an apartment complex... and yes -- it's a very large income. And yes - the taxes on dividends are "only" 15% (Qualified dividends) and the taxes on my MUNI BONDS are tax free. For that "tax free" status - I receive substantially less income (on a laddered bond portfolio I get about 4% in interest). Now -- I'm not going to write a book on INVESTING and returns and taxes etc. But I will tell you that if people like me didn't buy school bonds - and road improvement bonds etc... then you wouldn't be very happy because there'd be NO MONEY to build all that stuff you enjoy. There is a direct benefit to society by cities/counties/state governments paying a lower financing cost... In order to attract people to invest in these (bonds) - they come with the tax free status. BUT -- there's always a big BUTT in the room.... I'm an "investor".... some of those "investments" are complete busts... I don't get any write off for those. Oh yeah -- I can claim 3 grand a year - for about eternity... Some investments return some of my money after 4 or 5 years... and once in awhile you hit the mother lode. Now - I'm going to attempt to explain the VALUE to society with one of my latest "hits" as a real life example. An investment 6+ years ago in a start up that had about 50 employees - but was running low on cash - needed some "help" both financially and with management (that's what they get when guys like me invest - they get MONEY and they get BRAINS and they get CONNECTIONS). That company was sold last year when it had almost 500 employees -- 100 of which came away with ONE MILLION DOLLARS OR MORE.... Many more had somewhere less than a million bucks... some poor bastard might have "only" got half a million. What a shame. You know what? All of the cash was taxed at ORDINARY INCOME TAX RATES. The return on my initial investment was substantial -- it was taxed as LONG TERM CAPITAL GAINS (15%) -- but the other shares I owned were taxed at ordinary income. Several people could retire on what I paid in income taxes last year - and several more could on what my tax bill will be this year. If you want to calculate in absolute percentage terms I paid about 32%...


I guess this discussion is really about a battle between the haves and the have nots... and I just don't think it's as simple as that. There is a reason why people succeed and some don't. Education, willingness to 'gamble' on their careers (I know people that have turned down great opportunities because they didn't want to move)... willingness to learn... and grow...the ability to SEE the opportunity that is before them. Let's take a framer... some guys will always just be framers. What is it that separates them from the guy that started as a framer and is now a general contractor?

To me - it's kinda like the people that only see NASA as a giant play toy for the astronauts. They see no purpose in building things to fly to outer space. But others see it for all the "stuff" that they've invented during their attempts to do more and fly farther. I can't name 'em - but I know there's just a whole slew of stuff that we wouldn't have without NASA. Another example is auto racing. Many people just see it as a giant toy box - yet "we" here know about the stuff they do that trickles down to todays cars.

It's just never as simple as "1% vs the 99%".... or the "I pay more (or less) taxes than someone else".


Hope that makes some "sense"... sometimes there just isn't a good or perfect explanation. This isn't the old communist China... where you had the rulers that lived like kings and "everybody else". It's America... there's a reward for risk - there's "incentives" to invest - there's opportunity to change your own life. Sometimes those risks/changes don't work out... some people get up and do it all over again - some give up and whine - some keep walkin' around wishin' and hoping' but never taking action. Some just blame others for their lives not going per their dreams.

very well said Greg. :cheers:

[Al Moreno]

very well said Greg. :cheers:

I second that, it was FREAKING poetic Greg!

What other also don't realize is that the investment could have gone the other way around and you would have lost your ass! All the employees would have just gone and found anther job.

[realcoray]

I think the facts need to be checked before making statements like this. I'm not picking a fight with you personally -- but I hear this same crap all the time and it's just that. Pure crap.

It's just never as simple as "1% vs the 99%".... or the "I pay more (or less) taxes than someone else".

It's America... there's a reward for risk - there's "incentives" to invest - there's opportunity to change your own life. Sometimes those risks/changes don't work out... some people get up and do it all over again - some give up and whine - some keep walkin' around wishin' and hoping' but never taking action. Some just blame others for their lives not going per their dreams.

I realize now that my statement was too broad, without a doubt there are a lot of people in the so called 1% that pay a higher percentage than I do, and certainly they all pay far more on an absolute basis than I do.

And I agree 100% about most people not putting in the work or taking the chances that you need to take to be successful. This in particular bothers me with some of the protestors. If you make bad decisions you need to take some responsibility for that and I think that is one of the things that seperates people who are successful from those that aren't.

That all being said, it's a fact that the income gap has risen and while you should be able to work hard and/or take risks and see benefits from that, at what point do things get so far out of whack that it is a problem?

I think with the way wages for the middle class have gone down and earnings for the very rich have gone up, we are slightly out of whack. And no I'm not saying you would just take money from A and give it to B, nothing is ever so simple.

However, from an economics standpoint, I will say for certain that if you took 1,000$ from every rich guy, and gave it to a car guy, that the car guy would turn around and spend at least 1,500$ on car parts.

[GregWeld]

realcoray --

I was not directing my 'diatribe' at you personally even though I used your quote for the basis of my response. I was really writing more of an essay on how - in real life terms - the "wealthy" work. Of course - my examples and statements are also broadly stated. And, I too, HATE the fact that big corporations (and some individuals) sometimes get off scott free. Or hide their money overseas etc. But we have a government that is supposed to "fix" that kind of stuff... and if they don't - we need to vote the bastards out. Our problems weren't created, per se, by the big loopholes... or the corporations that asked for them.... they're allowed to do that because congress WROTE the laws that way and the President signed it (many generations of them BTW).

Our tax code is crap. Even the guys that do your taxes for a living can't figure it out. CONGRESS needs to fix that. Simplify it. Cut the loopholes. Cut the crap. I'd gladly pay a higher percentage rate. IF I thought the code was FAIR and EQUITABLE. But we all know it's not. A simple inequity that all can understand is - why should a home owner get a tax deduction - and a renter doesn't? Well somewhere back when the US Congress thought that was just the thing needed to get people to "invest" in houses (called an incentive as mentioned previously). Is it still needed today? Is it "fair"? I don't think so but I don't want to argue it either. THEY have all the numbers - they can fix the tax code.

I will add this. Remember when they decided to tack on a 10% Luxury Tax? On furs - boats - and cars over "X" amount. That was directly aimed at the "rich". The RESULT however was that "the rich" remodeled their boat rather than bought new... and the boat building industry LOST 60,000 jobs. So who got it in the backside with that brilliant "tax the rich" scheme?

Here's a very short but "current" opinion article (again found by Googling "10% luxury tax") on the proposed "jet tax". Once again if implemented the only guy that's going to suffer will be the company that builds 'em and the people that build 'em. This is why I'm saying it's just never that simple!

http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/270855/corporate-jet-tax-rerun-yacht-luxury-tax

In actual fact -- they (government) need to ENCOURAGE people to buy stuff. For every jet out there - it needs a pilot - it needs maintenance by trained mechanics - it has to get built to begin with - there are sales taxes paid - and license fees paid and airport parking spots rent - and taxes for take off and landing fees - and jet fuel - which needs to be put in by a guy driving a truck....

[Al Moreno]

I realize now that my statement was too broad, without a doubt there are a lot of people in the so called 1% that pay a higher percentage than I do, and certainly they all pay far more on an absolute basis than I do.

And I agree 100% about most people not putting in the work or taking the chances that you need to take to be successful. This in particular bothers me with some of the protestors. If you make bad decisions you need to take some responsibility for that and I think that is one of the things that seperates people who are successful from those that aren't.

That all being said, it's a fact that the income gap has risen and while you should be able to work hard and/or take risks and see benefits from that, at what point do things get so far out of whack that it is a problem?

I think with the way wages for the middle class have gone down and earnings for the very rich have gone up, we are slightly out of whack. And no I'm not saying you would just take money from A and give it to B, nothing is ever so simple.

However, from an economics standpoint, I will say for certain that if you took 1,000$ from every rich guy, and gave it to a car guy, that the car guy would turn around and spend at least 1,500$ on car parts.


You need to do yourself a favor and read this little book that was written in 1946. "Economics in one Lesson". By the way, you can get it free! Here's the link. http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/Economics_in_one_lesson.pdf


Remember nobody gets rich by "demand", you do it by "deserve".:cheers:

The word "deserve" come from the rout word "de" which means "from" and "serve" which means 'service". So instead of asking what can I get, the real question should be, how can I serve more so that my rewards will be greater.

PS, if you don't want to read the entire book, just read the chapter on "Minimum Wage Laws"

PPS, listen to this exert from Earl Nightingale "Lead The Field" series where he explain why you earn what you earn and how to increase it. here another free link. I bout this entire audio series 27 years ago when I was 19 years old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTFi2nTWnRU

People want more but are unwilling to do what it takes to make them self be worth more.

[GregWeld]

I second that, it was FREAKING poetic Greg!

What other also don't realize is that the investment could have gone the other way around and you would have lost your ass! All the employees would have just gone and found anther job.

Well AL --

Here's a real life example of that!

Three years ago I lost half a million in an investment. It was a company, started by friends - that is called ReKlaim (you can Google it). The "idea" - which started 7 or 8 years ago (and my first 50K investment was in the idea only stage) was to take USED TIRES - grind them up - "cook them" - and recover the oil - steel - and carbon that was the byproduct of the process. There are 290,000,000 (two hundred ninety million) used tires created per year. Currently they're a big problem because they're hard to get rid of. Our "idea" would have been pollution free - and would have recycled them into useful products and gotten rid of the problem entirely. Sadly - because the original guy went cuckoo during the building of the plant.... and a couple of assholes stepped in at precisely the wrong time - and lied - and flew around in jets (at our expense) and went on hunting trips etc.... I lost 100% of my investment and we lost control of the company to the company that was commissioned to build the plant. They're still trying to make a go of it but the plant is built and running. NO I couldn't "write it off" -- that is such a stupid uneducated statement! You can't just "write stuff off"... there's RULES for all that kind of stuff... and like most things -- it just ain't that f'n simple.

Like many of these things -- the success would have created 1000's of job all over the world... would have fixed a problem -- and would have made a lot of people paying a lot of taxes - it would have built plants - and used truck drivers and plant managers and employees. So again -- the "big money" would have trickled down to EVERYBODY.

[GregWeld]

Here's another thing that "my money" allows me to do... and I'm not pointing this out for kudos... I'm just saying that if I was just barely paying my bills and trying to save to buy car parts - I WOULD NOT be able to do this kind of stuff....

Note under my screen name - "SUPPORTING MEMBER" - I actually PAY to support this website. I don't have a business paying that - it's just out of pocket. I do that because I LOVE this site and the friends that are here. It takes real money to run this place.. and hard work that you never see that goes on in the background. I'm willing to pay a little bit so that I can continue to enjoy it. And that helps everyone else to be able to continue to enjoy it too!

Nobody asked me to do this - I don't get a bill - just every once in a while I PayPal some dough... It's not much (to me)... but I know it's appreciated and I'm certain that it goes to a good 'cause and I know it goes to a good guy!:lateral: :cheers:


Everyones view of the "rich guy" is some big fat guy sitting around smoking cigars and he's surrounded by piles of gold bars and jewels and he's busy lining the pockets of the politicians. I'm sure that's true for some people... maybe the one tenth of the one percent... but if you read the book - "The millionaire next door" you'd see that most of "us" are pretty simple folks that own small businesses or are farmers... or just own a couple small buildings we rent out etc. You take "us" out of the picture and you'll see an economy that REALLY gets wiped out.

If it wasn't for the "rich guys" bidding up cars on Barrett Jackass.... none of our "regular" cars would be worth nearly as much. A rising tide floats all boats. Some DB pays 225K for a '55 post car -- and the POS in your garage just went up 10K... and it justifies building a "clone/copy/phony" hemi 'cuda for someone to drive and enjoy. If there wasn't one just sold on BJ for 185K - nobody would build 'em!

Just sayin' -- it's just not all that simple.

[GregWeld]

Having just said all I said.... my neighbor (and friend) lost 250 MILLION GAMBLING on real estate... I told him to his face that he was a greedy Pdangler... and that he deserved to lose it. He violated the first rule of investing. DIVERSIFY. Okay -- that's a different guy different story. Here's ANOTHER local asswipe that is the person EVERYONE (including me) is so angry about! This is the .0000001% of the 1%. But he gives everyone a bad taste!

This was in the paper today. The "story" has been going on for much longer than that.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nicolebrodeur/2016943088_nicole06m.html

This guy is nothing but a CROOK -- and he doesn't represent "the norm". This guy was nothing more than a thief... he got away with it for years - but he's still just a common thief. And you CAN BET that he cheated on his income taxes! Prison is too good for him. I'd do a public stockade. Let the people stone the bastard. Tar and feather and leave him to be eaten by ants... :rofl: :wow:

[dj3]

Id be happy if they would just fix the freaking stock market and stop the algorithm trading.

[96z28ss]

no need for me to add any comments, just watch these.

http://youtu.be/0NwEFVUb-u0

http://youtu.be/r-udsIV4Hmc

[Jr]

but if you read the book - "The millionaire next door" you'd see that most of "us" are pretty simple folks that own small businesses or are farmers... or just own a couple small buildings we rent out etc. You take "us" out of the picture and you'll see an economy that REALLY gets wiped out.


Just sayin' -- it's just not all that simple.

That is a very good book! I found the book to be rather insightful. Everyone should pick of a copy.

[parsonsj]

The issue is the trends over the past 30 years, which, if it continues, will most certainly destroy American society.

Here's an excerpt from the non-partisan CBO Report on income growth over the past 30 years:

The share of income going to higher-income households rose, while the share going to lower-income households fell.

The top fifth of the population saw a 10-percentage-point increase in their share of after-tax income.

Most of that growth went to the top 1 percent of the population.

All other groups saw their shares decline by 2 to 3 percentage points.

This can't continue indefinitely or eventually we'll all be serfs in the fields of the Lords and Ladies of America.

The question is: what should be done to ensure that Americans share more equally in the growth of the economy over the next 30 years?

Here's the whole report:

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=12485

[GregWeld]

The issue is the trends over the past 30 years, which, if it continues, will most certainly destroy American society.

Here's an excerpt from the non-partisan CBO Report on income growth over the past 30 years:

The share of income going to higher-income households rose, while the share going to lower-income households fell.

The top fifth of the population saw a 10-percentage-point increase in their share of after-tax income.

Most of that growth went to the top 1 percent of the population.

All other groups saw their shares decline by 2 to 3 percentage points.

This can't continue indefinitely or eventually we'll all be serfs in the fields of the Lords and Ladies of America.

The question is: what should be done to ensure that Americans share more equally in the growth of the economy over the next 30 years?

Here's the whole report:

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=12485



REAL SIMPLE -- QUIT BUYING CHINESE CRAP.

[Flash68]

I lost 100% of my investment and we lost control of the company to the company that was commissioned to build the plant. They're still trying to make a go of it but the plant is built and running. NO I couldn't "write it off" -- that is such a stupid uneducated statement! You can't just "write stuff off"... there's RULES for all that kind of stuff... and like most things -- it just ain't that f'n simple.



Greg, you mean like this? :D

rCZRqH7sRyA

[parsonsj]

REAL SIMPLE -- QUIT BUYING CHINESE CRAP.I gotta say, I've not heard that as a policy proposal from anybody. :lol:

[Vegas69]

I like Bob's links to Mike Rowe. Everybody thinks they need to be Bill Gates but that's slowly changing. People need to be motivated. You can't hand them a golden botton on a silver platter and expect them to get out of bed in the morning and piss excellence. Cut off the feeder tube.

I think population is a HUGE problem. How many people can this country support in the typical American way? How about the older crowd not retiring until the lay in their coffin? How is a kid supposed to get a good job if they don't exist? Look at over populated third world countries........

America is still the BEST place on earth. The gravy train has simply ended and Americans need to get back to living within their means and working hard for their accomplishments. I've been busting my ASS to keep my boat floating down the river. My profits are 1/2 what they were 7 years ago, I have two employees, more overhead but I get up in the morning an put on my slacks and go to the office. They should probably be a 1/3rd if I didn't adapt my business to the changing times. You can bitch and moan or make it happen. Take your pick. This is what every American needs to hear but it won't happen. You can't tell the truth and get elected. That needs to change.

[96z28ss]

This one is a bit better kind of sums up the other 2 videos.
http://youtu.be/Qo-cUZ2aRKc

[Sieg]

OAOrT0OcHh0

[GregWeld]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ AWESOME! And so dang true.

[SLO_Z28]

OAOrT0OcHh0

^Spot on!

[Matt@BOS]

This article may not be that new (Oct. 14) but I think it is worth a read. I'm not going to say I agree or disagree with it wholly, but it does bring up some worthwhile points to discuss.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/10/occupy-wall-streets-greatest-strength-is-neutering-it/246671/

Matt

[GregWeld]

Fantastic article! As I've said before -- it just ain't that simple.... and I'm referring to all the OWS - or tax the 1% into oblivion etc. And this article points out far better than I can --- some of those notions.

I think that almost EVERYONE can agree that no CEO is worth 100 million a year bonus... or that corporations should pay zero income tax when they have made millions (or hundreds of millions)... or that people should get ripped off. Period.

How we go about fixing those issues is the real issue in America.

Personally I've never understood how we can borrow from China to send money to Somalia (substitute any country here)... and create debt we can never afford to pay back - so we borrow more to pay the old stuff. It's ludicrous! Which is why many are saying - don't raise my taxes - cut your spending etc.

I also love these discussions... they never settle anything - but they're educational and worth talking about IMHO.

[GrabberGT]

I think that almost EVERYONE can agree that no CEO is worth 100 million a year bonus... or that corporations should pay zero income tax when they have made millions (or hundreds of millions)... or that people should get ripped off. Period.

How we go about fixing those issues is the real issue in America.


I like this thread. It makes me think.

This is a great group of people who can openly share ideas and opinions without getting their hackles up. So now Im going to share a thought here and I totally expect someone with more of a brain than I to step in and set me straight.

A thought I've had over the last few weeks regarding the growing disparity between income levels is what if we didnt leave it to the Govt to redistribute the wealth. We're the working class that makes the bonus that the CEO puts in his pocket possible. Maybe we need to demand more from our employer. We worked for it. Why should we let the govt take his money and give it to someone else. If we the working class get paid more, we spend more. More spending equals more jobs. The money goes around.

I think it was Richard Branson who made a plea to CEO's to create jobs instead of cut jobs. Someone will fill it and garner a nice wage. They'll spend that wage on goods/services... The money will make it back around.

[Al Moreno]

I like this thread. It makes me think.

This is a great group of people who can openly share ideas and opinions without getting their hackles up. So now Im going to share a thought here and I totally expect someone with more of a brain than I to step in and set me straight.

A thought I've had over the last few weeks regarding the growing disparity between income levels is what if we didnt leave it to the Govt to redistribute the wealth. We're the working class that makes the bonus that the CEO puts in his pocket possible. Maybe we need to demand more from our employer. We worked for it. Why should we let the govt take his money and give it to someone else. If we the working class get paid more, we spend more. More spending equals more jobs. The money goes around.

I think it was Richard Branson who made a plea to CEO's to create jobs instead of cut jobs. Someone will fill it and garner a nice wage. They'll spend that wage on goods/services... The money will make it back around.

Since Nobody here took the suggestion and read the link the FREE book I posted written in 1946 "Economics in One Lesson" on number 50#.

I figure I'll just posy the chapter on minimum wage. Will take you 5 minutes to read and the whole book two hours but it will give you a great coarse on economics.

************************************************** ***

MINIMUM WAGE LAWS

We have already seen some of the harmful results of arbitrary governmental efforts to raise the price of favored commodities. The same sort of harmful results follows efforts to raise wages through minimum wage laws. This ought not to be surprising; for a wage is, in fact, a price. It is unfortunate for clarity of economic thinking that the price of labor's services should have received an entirely different name from other prices. This has prevented most people from recognizing that the same principles govern both.

Thinking has become so emotional and so politically biased on the subject of wages that in most discussions of them the plainest principles are ignored. People who would be among the first to deny that prosperity could be brought about by artificially boosting prices, people who would be among the first to point out that minimum price laws might be most harmful to the very industries they were designed to help, will nevertheless advocate minimum wage laws, and denounce opponents of them, without misgivings.

Yet it ought to be clear that a minimum wage law is, at best, a limited weapon for combating the evil of low wages, and that the possible good to be achieved by such a law can exceed the possible harm only in proportion as its aims are modest. The more ambitious such a law is, the larger the number of workers it attempts to cover, and the more it attempts to raise their wages, the more likely are its harmful effects to exceed its good effect.

The first thing that happens, for example, when a law is passed that no one shall he paid less than $30 for a forty-hour week is that no one who is not worth $30 a week to an employer will he employed at all. You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn, while you deprive the community even of the moderate services that he is capable of rendering. In brief, for a low wage you substitute unemployment. You do harm all around, with no comparable compensation.

The only exception to this occurs when a group of workers is receiving a wage actually below its market worth. This is likely to happen only in special circumstances or localities where competitive forces do not operate freely or adequately; but nearly all these special cases could he remedied just as effectively, more flexibly and with far less potential harm, by unionization.

It may be thought that if the law forces the payment of a higher wage in a given industry, that industry can then charge higher prices for its product, so that the burden of paying the higher wage is merely shifted to consumers. Such shifts, however, are not easily made, nor are the consequences of artificial wage-raising so easily escaped. A higher price for the product may not he possible: it may merely drive consumers to some substitute. Or, if consumers continue to buy the product of the industry in which wages have been raised, the higher price will cause them to buy less of it. While some workers in the industry will be benefited from the higher wage, therefore, others will he thrown out of employment altogether. On the other hand, if the price of the product is marginal producers in the industry will be driven out of business; so that reduced production and consequent unemployment will merely be brought about in another way.

When such consequences are pointed out, there are a group of people who reply: "Very well; if it is true that the X industry cannot exist except by paying starvation wages, then it will be just as well if the minimum wage puts it out of existence altogether." But this brave pronouncement overlooks the realities. It overlooks, first of all, that consumers will suffer the loss of that product. It forgets, in the second place, that it is merely condemning the people who worked in that industry to unemployment. And it ignores, finally, that bad as were the wages paid in the X industry, they were the best among all the alternatives that seemed open to the workers in that industry; otherwise the workers would have gone into another. If, therefore, the X industry is driven out of existence by a minimum wage law, then the workers previously employed in that industry will be forced to turn to alternative courses that seemed less attractive to them in the first place. Their competition for jobs will drive down the pay offered even in these alternative occupations. There is no escape from the conclusion that the minimum wage will increase unemployment.

2

A nice problem, moreover, will be raised by the relief program designed to take care of the unemployment caused by the minimum wage law. By a minimum wage of, say, 75 cents an hour, we have forbidden anyone to work forty hours in a week for less than $30. Suppose, now, we offer only $18 a week on relief. This means that we have forbidden a man to be usefully employed at, say $25 a week, in order that we may support him at $18 a week in idleness. We have deprived society of the value of his services. We have deprived the man of the independence and self-respect that come from self-support, even at a low level, and from performing wanted work, at the same time as we have lowered what the man could have received by his own efforts.

These consequences follow as long as the relief payment is a penny less than $30. Yet the higher we make the relief payment, the worse we make the situation in other respects. If we offer $30 for relief, then we offer many men just as much for not working as for working. Moreover, whatever the sum we offer for relief, we create a situation in which everyone is working only for the difference between his wages and the amount of the relief. If the relief is $30 a week, for example, workers offered a wage of $1 an hour, or $40 a week, are in fact, as they see it, being asked to work for only $10 a week-for they can get the rest without doing anything.

It may be thought that we can escape these consequences by offering "work relief" instead of "home relief"; hut we merely change the nature of the consequences. "Work relief" means that we are paying the beneficiaries more than the open market would pay them for their efforts. Only part of their relief-wage is for their efforts, therefore (in work often of doubtful utility), while the rest is a disguised dole.

It would probably have been better all around if the government in the first place had frankly subsidized their wages on the private work they were already doing. We need not pursue this point further, as it would carry us into problems not immediately relevant. But the difficult ties and consequences of relief must be kept in mind when we consider the adoption of minimum wage laws or an increase in minimums already fixed.

3

All this is not to argue that there is no way of raising wages. It is merely to point out that the apparently easy method of raising them by government fiat is the wrong way and the worst way.

This is perhaps as good a place as any to point out that what distinguishes many reformers from those who cannot accept their proposals is not their greater philanthropy, but their greater impatience. The question is not whether we wish to see everybody as well off as possible. Among men of good will such an aim can he taken for granted. The real question concerns the proper means of achieving it. And in trying to answer this we must never lose sight of a few elementary truisms. We cannot distribute more wealth than is created. We cannot in the long rim pay labor as a whole more than it produces.

The best way to raise wages, therefore, is to raise labor productivity. This can be done by many methods: by an increase in capital accumulation i.e., by an increase in the machines with which the workers are aided; by new inventions and improvements; by more efficient management on the part of employers; by more industriousness and efficiency on the part of workers; by better education and training. The more the individual worker produces, the more he increases the wealth of the whole community. The more he produces, the more his services are worth to consumers, and hence to employers. And the more he is worth to employers, the more he will be paid. Real wages come out of production, not out of government decrees.

[Al Moreno]

.I think that almost EVERYONE can agree that no CEO is worth 100 million a year bonus... . .

Greg I'm going to have to respectfully disagree you here. When Disney's Micheal Eisner was paid the top salary for a CEO that year of $40MM, Disney had made over 2 Billion dollars. I think if you help a company make $2 BILLION, what $40MM. Nothing.

Now if the company is in the red and your still taking $100MM, that's another story.

As a business owner, you only get to keep the net after taxes, whatever that is but you get to keep 100% of the losses. If we keep putting restrictions on business, we will kill the incentive for entrepreneurs to risk 100% of there money, if they are only able to keep 10% of your profit. Seriously, how many people that are complaining would sign up for that program?

[parsonsj]

what we must actually answer are questions like, "What sort of regulations, if any, should govern the market for derivatives of mortgaged backed securities," and "Should the federal government subsidize home ownership," and "What should the reserve requirements be for lending institutions." Right. These are some of the policy questions to be answered, in order to see how the American economy transforms and how all Americans prosper over the next 30 years. Ayn Rand notions of pure capitalism, Rush Limbaugh straw man arguments about socialism, and trying to convince us that we should all be grateful to corporations (I'm not convinced Whittle's video wasn't parody) miss the mark.

Nicely written, Mr. Frledersdorf.

[GregWeld]

Greg I'm going to have to respectfully disagree you here. When Disney's Micheal Eisner was paid the top salary for a CEO that year of $40MM, Disney had made over 2 Billion dollars. I think if you help a company make $2 BILLION, what $40MM. Nothing.

Now if the company is in the red and your still taking $100MM, that's another story.

As a business owner, you only get to keep the net after taxes, whatever that is but you get to keep 100% of the losses. If we keep putting restrictions on business, we will kill the incentive for entrepreneurs to risk 100% of there money, if they are only able to keep 10% of your profit. Seriously, how many people that are complaining would sign up for that program?


Al -- I'd ordinarily agree with you -- and since I've owned SEVERAL businesses and have done extraordinarily well at it I would normally side with you -- but (that danged big BUTT) -- what we've witnessed is companies laying off employees and STILL getting these giant bonuses.... and or GETTING FIRED and collecting millions after they screwed the company up and cost many people their jobs. THAT is what people are so dismayed to see. It's just all upside-down... just like when the worst credit history folks got the lowest most favorable terms to buy houses they couldn't afford. When the "norm" goes upside-down... is when you have outrage.

[nacnac]

I couldn't agree with adam corolla more. Nicely said.

[Vegas69]

You climb to the top of the heap for a reason. If you have the profits, take them as you see fit. It may piss off outsiders, investor, and employees, but it's their pony show. It's a free country. If you don't like it, get off the boat. :unibrow:

[GregWeld]

You climb to the top of the heap for a reason. If you have the profits, take them as you see fit. It may piss off outsiders, investor, and employees, but it's their pony show. It's a free country. If you don't like it, get off the boat. :unibrow:

For purposes of my statement I was talking about publicly traded companies, not sole proprietors. Those profits (of public companies) belong to the investors since "they" are the actual owners of the company. A sole proprietor can get as much as he can, or is willing to take.

[Etch]

From what I know, the OWS movement is more about corrupt politics than anything. This IMHO is a legitimate reason to be angry about.

I watched LAPD evict the protest members from Occupy LA. MYFOXLA was there interviewing the protesters, asking "what do you want to see change in Washington?" All the protesters answered something along the lines of "I want to see money out of Washington."

What does that mean? Money out of Washington?

Here are some examples of "money in Washington", and corrupt politics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0LMAP0L5G4&noredirect=1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kristin-wartman/pizza-is-a-vegetable_b_1101433.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_IP_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80DbxSZ_FB8&feature=youtu.be
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/12/05/the-national-defense-authorization-act-is-the-greatest-threat-to-civil-liberties-americans-face/

The real issues at hand is: Should big businesses be able to influence politics more than the average citizen?

Efficiency is a company's number one goal, it's how the government has set it up. But what happens when 'efficiency' oversteps people? The government needs to be changed.

Some objective data to look at: http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

http://visualeconomics.creditloan.com/how-the-average-us-consumer-spends-their-paycheck/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
*note that we have the same income distribution as China...weird...


Now, I'll be the first to admit I don't know much of anything, I'm only 20, going to college... and I'm honestly kind of confused about this. Anyone older, with more experience care to let me know what these numbers actually mean?

P.S. Does anyone know about http://wikileaks.org/? Thoughts? What about the hacker group 'Anonymous'?