Any inventors out there, or dealt with intellectual property?

[Josh69]

I've got an idea, and I think it's a good one. Those I've bounced it off have agreed, but I don't know where to start. I have a need for a product, and this product would appeal to many, thousands I think, that also need this product. It is motorsports related, and would be very affordable to the masses. However, I have no experience in CAD drawing, and don't know where to turn for advice. I'm afraid if I mumble a word about it, my idea would be vapor and turn up elsewhere. It is a simple idea, and there is no product on the market to compete with in my search.

How do I work with a CAD designer to make a prototype, and consequently a CNC machinist, or other fabricator without them stealing the idea, or selling the plans to someone else?

I don't have much money, even after selling my PT car.

I know at some point I'll have to trust someone, but I can't even apply for a decent patent without some engineering advice and quality drawings. I'm a fine artist, but some of my idea will need engineering advice to see what aspects are feasible or cost effective/prohibitive.

Advice appreciated!!

[GregWeld]

I've got an idea, and I think it's a good one. Those I've bounced it off have agreed, but I don't know where to start. I have a need for a product, and this product would appeal to many, thousands I think, that also need this product. It is motorsports related, and would be very affordable to the masses. However, I have no experience in CAD drawing, and don't know where to turn for advice. I'm afraid if I mumble a word about it, my idea would be vapor and turn up elsewhere. It is a simple idea, and there is no product on the market to compete with in my search.

How do I work with a CAD designer to make a prototype, and consequently a CNC machinist, or other fabricator without them stealing the idea, or selling the plans to someone else?

I don't have much money, even after selling my PT car.

I know at some point I'll have to trust someone, but I can't even apply for a decent patent without some engineering advice and quality drawings. I'm a fine artist, but some of my idea will need engineering advice to see what aspects are feasible or cost effective/prohibitive.

Advice appreciated!!


Just have whomever you work with sign a non-disclosure agreement. Also include in there that this is YOUR idea and that they can not copy plans or reproduce or modify or discuss etc. Get a lawyer to draft something up - shouldn't cost you more than a couple hours of time.

[Josh69]

That sounds simple enough, I'll find an attorney and start there. I know I'm too trusting, and would get burned without protection of some sort.

[rwhite692]

You really don't need a lawyer to generate a simple, effective and legally binding NDA.

There are plenty of simple, "boilerplate" NDAs available for free from many sources that will accomplish what you need. Such as:


http://www.silcom.com/~tomjolly/nda.htm (http://www.silcom.com/%7Etomjolly/nda.htm)

[GregWeld]

There ya go!

[MattO]

I have a good friend who can program it in solid works and is very trustworthy. I'm sure he would sign your agreement and do the CAD work for a fee.

[ccracin]

Josh,

The company I work for deals with NDA's in our daily business. They are very simple. I will say publicly here that I am willing to help from an engineering standpoint and will not take your idea. I also have contacts with manufacturing shops. If you want me to sign an NDA, I have no problem with that. By the way, I am an Engineer by day. Thought that might be important. :lol: PM me if you are interested in talking further. If you go another route, no problem. I wish you a lot of luck. I know what it feels like to have one of THOSE ideas. :thumbsup:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I've got an idea, and I think it's a good one. Those I've bounced it off have agreed, but I don't know where to start. I have a need for a product, and this product would appeal to many, thousands I think, that also need this product. It is motorsports related, and would be very affordable to the masses. However, I have no experience in CAD drawing, and don't know where to turn for advice. I'm afraid if I mumble a word about it, my idea would be vapor and turn up elsewhere. It is a simple idea, and there is no product on the market to compete with in my search.

How do I work with a CAD designer to make a prototype, and consequently a CNC machinist, or other fabricator without them stealing the idea, or selling the plans to someone else?

I don't have much money, even after selling my PT car.

I know at some point I'll have to trust someone, but I can't even apply for a decent patent without some engineering advice and quality drawings. I'm a fine artist, but some of my idea will need engineering advice to see what aspects are feasible or cost effective/prohibitive.

Advice appreciated!!

Just have whomever you work with sign a non-disclosure agreement. Also include in there that this is YOUR idea and that they can not copy plans or reproduce or modify or discuss etc. Get a lawyer to draft something up - shouldn't cost you more than a couple hours of time.

there you go...oh btw

Vince Ortiz
Meanstreets Performance Fabrication and proto-typing
dba MSP Fabrication
1930 Leslie St
San Mateo Ca 94403
(415) 271-4839
[email protected]
metal fabrication and defense systems proto-typing

just in case you need any assistance. I will beat any price...depending on CNC work needed.

[96z28ss]

I have no problem helping out. I've signed NDA's before. I also have patents. Not sure what you do for a living, but I hope you realize what effort, time, and MONEY it takes to go from napkin sketches to selling thousands of product.
Sometimes licencing the idea to a company that already manufactures and has the marketing and sales channels in place is a better route to take.

[Josh69]

Wow, thanks guys, I appreciate all the support and offers to assist me!

I'm no stranger to time and effort, but it's the money that will take a little more effort, as I don't have much of my own. I have resources though, having worked in Operations for hedge funds for quite a few years in the past.

A buddy of mine is working on another mechanism for the marine industry, and they were told it'll be $20-30K before they have a working prototype. Is that a realistic picture of what I can expect?

My sister's boyfriend just sold a device he invented for $1mil to an established company, and works for them as a contractor now, but I have my marketing ideas already building too, and part of the joy would be realizing the efforts in full, much like my PT build.

[ccracin]

A buddy of mine is working on another mechanism for the marine industry, and they were told it'll be $20-30K before they have a working prototype. Is that a realistic picture of what I can expect?

Unfortunately Josh none of us are going to be able to answer this with detail you will find helpful. It all depends on the product and what's involved. Once you start working with someone, you can start doing estimates to determine if and how far you take it. :thumbsup:

[BBShark]

I do this for a living so, I'll jump in here and offer some ideas.

First off, DO NOT put your own money into this unless you are willing to lose it. Even a good idea is a crap shoot.

Focus on what you are trying to sell, you are trying to sell the concept right? Let's say you add "value" to the concept with CAD drawings and prototypes. Have you increased the value of the concept to the buyer because you have a CAD drawing and a prototype? Simple answer, if the potential buyer does not see the value of the product in the concept, the CAD and prototype will not change their mind.

If I were you, I would go to www.uspto.gov and do a search. Or, probably easier is to go to Google and where it says "type of search", there is a listing for patents. Make sure you are not doing something that has been done before (and don't be discouraged because you see something similar). This is your call but, you could apply for a provisional application at he patent office. If you do all the description and illustration, this could be done (with a lawyer) for about $800. You could do it yourself for much less but it is a major hassle and, if you don't get it exactly right, you application is denied and you forfeit your fee.

The good thing about a provisional is that lots of people won't talk to you (even with an NDA) unless you have this. This protects them and you. The bad thing is, it costs money. You say this is an automotive product. If it is a product that you intend to sell to Ford or GM, you will need at least an issued patent application (international also). And, it better be a good one. Cost of a good one is $25K and up. If it is a product for the automotive aftermarket, then you may be able to get by with the provisional.

I do this for a living and, I would strongly urge you to do the following:

Educate yourself about your product and it's market potential. You might be able to do this by looking at a similar product that is in the marketplace.

Find at least 3 companies that you think could benefit from your product. Keep in mind that a product that is a new market or "incremental" business to a company is more valuable than one that takes sales away from an existing product offering.

Contact the companies by phone. A good person to contact can be found by looking up patents that were assigned to the company you are calling and finding the inventor. Ask them if they have a product submission process or they have in-house or outside legal representation. These are the people who are going to provide an NDA.

From there, you are set. Like I said before, this is like Vegas with a very low incidence of success. However, don't let me discourage you. The ones I have seen succeed are the persistent ones.

Good luck with your venture!

[GregWeld]

Man! Fantastic information! That is what this community is all about.


:cheers:

[NOPANTS68]

BBshark has it dead on. I'm just entering the pre-production stages of an invention I created and it's been a huge education. My product was born out of necessity and I just started doing research from there. I bounced my concepts off of my brother and my closest friends that I would trust with my life.

I used some of the already mentioned sites as well as legalzoom.com for NDAs while I was gathering materials costs and options. I found people to be very open to signing them and the transactions weren't inhibited by them. Wading into the vast materials world was pretty scary since most folks were talking in "spools" and "pallets". I didn't have the capital for experimenting on that level of volume so I had to really search out what I needed at more realistic minimum order numbers. I eventually found what I needed.

After some lucky breaks and some help from another auto enthusiast, a very rough prototype was born. It was destroyed an hour later during testing. The learning curve was massive but 11 revisions later we have a product that kicks serious butt. I seeked out an intellectual property attorney.

I found him in the next city over from me and we met over coffee. I showed him our latest and greatest and four hours later I had a list of all of the required info he needed as well as a pretty good grasp on how it works. Three weeks later I had all of my technical artwork done and we filed for my first patent date. I chose not to do a provisional as it just didn't fit my program. The whole deal ran me $1500 for tech artwork and $7500 for the attorney fees, filing, etc.

Once I had a filing date I had protection. I've since done extensive field testing with the product and have scheduled minor tweaks at the most. Field testing has gone on for 7 months and the response has been over the top. I've had some serious tech help from some pretty savvy friends but the real world numbers are about $10K in design time and revisions and $15K for the custom mold, materials, tooling etc.

It's exciting but you gotta stay grounded. Everyone has an opinion and your friends won't always give it to you straight. Be aggressive and diligent and I think you'll get where you wanna be. If we hit the market and just hear crickets- oh well, at least I went out swinging. PM me if I can help you in any way. Dave

[Shmoov69]

There is some great advice here!

I've never been accused of having any "intellectual property" tho!!:cheers:

[Josh69]

Awesome advice everyone, and thanks to all who have shared, it has given me both more motivation, and a good idea where to focus my energy.

The product is not going to be sold to any major manufacturer's, and it's not for automotive use. It is for recreational vehicles, such as scooters, ATV's, snowmobiles etc. It is for consumer use.

Fortunately, I was able to flesh out my idea with Chad, aka ccracin over the phone and we realized quickly that I would be better off trying to utilize an existing product and modifying it for my application. It was actually my first idea weeks ago, but I dismissed it early on because I felt that it wasn't distinct enough and it's limitations where too easily exploited. However, after talking with Chad we both agreed it was the best route, and could be packaged for my purpose. While the over the shelf mechanism does limit my total market due to size availability, it does address exactly the market I need. It will allow me to focus on the segment I am most interested in, and leave room for growth.

I am very excited, because I can develop a working prototype within hours. I've already got the mechanism and with mild modification it works. I am going to begin creating my rough prototype for testing, and once I have a working unit, I can talk to some lawyers and have some 3D CAD drawings made.

Amazingly, there is a company I drive past daily that specializes in low volume production, and rapid prototyping called Protomold. They have reasonable prices from what I'm seeing. Combine the plastic housing I design with the modified mechanism available over the shelf, and bingo. :willy:

[Josh69]

I have another question for those that have experience in this arena. If the device I am building my adaptive housing around is a brand name product, do I have to license it from them if any part of their product is identified on the original part itself and is not obscured, even if I'm not advertising them as being part of the product?

[ccracin]

Awesome advice everyone, and thanks to all who have shared, it has given me both more motivation, and a good idea where to focus my energy.

The product is not going to be sold to any major manufacturer's, and it's not for automotive use. It is for recreational vehicles, such as scooters, ATV's, snowmobiles etc. It is for consumer use.

Fortunately, I was able to flesh out my idea with Chad, aka ccracin over the phone and we realized quickly that I would be better off trying to utilize an existing product and modifying it for my application. It was actually my first idea weeks ago, but I dismissed it early on because I felt that it wasn't distinct enough and it's limitations where too easily exploited. However, after talking with Chad we both agreed it was the best route, and could be packaged for my purpose. While the over the shelf mechanism does limit my total market due to size availability, it does address exactly the market I need. It will allow me to focus on the segment I am most interested in, and leave room for growth.

I am very excited, because I can develop a working prototype within hours. I've already got the mechanism and with mild modification it works. I am going to begin creating my rough prototype for testing, and once I have a working unit, I can talk to some lawyers and have some 3D CAD drawings made.

Amazingly, there is a company I drive past daily that specializes in low volume production, and rapid prototyping called Protomold. They have reasonable prices from what I'm seeing. Combine the plastic housing I design with the modified mechanism available over the shelf, and bingo. :willy:

It was a pleasure talking to you Josh. I really think you are on the right track. As I said, keep in touch. I am happy to help.

To All,

I can tell you Josh has a really good idea of what he is looking for and is grounded in what to expect. There are a couple ways he can go and through some experimenting I'm sure he will find the right path. His product can be developed and prototyped very reasonably. I encouraged him to do as much as he can on his own and inexpensively. There are a lot of people ready to take money when it is not necessary. The advice from members of this community is invaluable. Hopefully he will keep us all posted on his progress. I agree with him that there is a place for his product! I would use it! :thumbsup: :lateral:

[TheJDMan]

Keep in mind that once you have a patent in hand all you have is a piece of paper and the USPTO will do nothing to enforce it. Enforcing a patent is up to you and/or your attorney and enforcing a patent can be very expensive.

I would also add that the USPTO hosts a number of free seminars around the country. In these seminars they present a whole array of workshops to educate inventors on the mechanics of applying for and enforcing a trademark or patent. I attended one of these seminars at their HQ in Alexandria VA a few years ago when I was in the process of applying for my patent. I urge you to go to http://www.uspto.gov/ and take some time to look at the vast amount of information on their site.

[kwhizz]

Getting a patent today is relatively easy (Everyone has their hand out).........The difficult part is dealing with the Lawyers (Get a "Firm" price for everything ahead of time.......I am a "Graduate" of the Patent Lawyer Game) and the enforcing of the Patent in todays World.......If someone copies it in a Foreign Country.....Good Luck!!!......and those Lawyer Guys will have their hands out again.........

Ken

[71RS/SS396]

Keep in mind that once you have a patent in hand all you have is a piece of paper and the USPTO will do nothing to enforce it. Enforcing a patent is up to you and/or your attorney and enforcing a patent can be very expensive.

100% true and any big corporation with deep pockets that wants your product can just run you into bankrupcy with legal battles especially offshore ones. I watched my sister and brother in-law go bankrupt defending their patent rights.

[Josh69]

I made my first clay prototype yesterday, gotta say it's looking good! :yes:

I am a little skeptical of the patent, and may do one just to keep the honest people honest, but I know I can't stop an overseas knockoff. Realistically, my target market is isolated enough to begin with, that I will sell direct, online and out of a trailer at races and swap meets, etc. It's a large market, millions of registered owners, but it's a grassroots industry even to this day, where there are tons of products that are sold by small machine shops and whatnot, that could easily be copied overseas...but nobody would buy them and they are very much overlooked by the 'masses'. I'd still like to prevent people I would otherwise 'trust' from walking down the road and making their own, at least make it more costly and time consuming to do so if they are going to.

With that being said, licensing it to someone with deeper pockets may ultimately be a better solution, but I'm in it to have fun and see what I can do with it, as much as make any real money on it. Sort of like my PT build. I knew it wasn't a profit center, but I did it, and that was worth it. I see it as a way to be more involved with a sport I love and if it simply pays for itself, I'd be happy....well, maybe a new truck and trailer too. ;)

[kttrucks]

Josh, Im kind of in the same boat as you on an invention.... Keep on task! keep your secrets secret! I've been in meetings with patent atorneys lately, and they stress how important it is to set up your foundation of ownership. It sucks that there's a free-for-all overseas, but unfortunately that's just the case. I see this with pirated DVDs of my PAINTUCATION series from time to time... In country I can bust them in a number of ways ( and have)

Just make sure you establish yourself as FIRST TO COMMERCE as well as being the first to have an official patent either applied for or granted.

Keep on livin the dream! This is one if the reazsons America is still great. :)

KT.

[BBShark]

I made my first clay prototype yesterday, gotta say it's looking good! :yes:

I am a little skeptical of the patent, and may do one just to keep the honest people honest, but I know I can't stop an overseas knockoff. Realistically, my target market is isolated enough to begin with, that I will sell direct, online and out of a trailer at races and swap meets, etc. It's a large market, millions of registered owners, but it's a grassroots industry even to this day, where there are tons of products that are sold by small machine shops and whatnot, that could easily be copied overseas...but nobody would buy them and they are very much overlooked by the 'masses'. I'd still like to prevent people I would otherwise 'trust' from walking down the road and making their own, at least make it more costly and time consuming to do so if they are going to.

With that being said, licensing it to someone with deeper pockets may ultimately be a better solution, but I'm in it to have fun and see what I can do with it, as much as make any real money on it. Sort of like my PT build. I knew it wasn't a profit center, but I did it, and that was worth it. I see it as a way to be more involved with a sport I love and if it simply pays for itself, I'd be happy....well, maybe a new truck and trailer too. ;)

A cautionary note. If you sell one without a patent application on file, it becomes public domain and anyone can copy it.

Just a thought.

[Josh69]

A cautionary note. If you sell one without a patent application on file, it becomes public domain and anyone can copy it.

Just a thought.

Agreed, thus I do plan on meeting with an attorney before the first sale or meeting with any potential supplier or manufacturer.

If I give a buddy a prototype to test for free, does that become public domain if he uses it in public?

[BBShark]

Agreed, thus I do plan on meeting with an attorney before the first sale or meeting with any potential supplier or manufacturer.

If I give a buddy a prototype to test for free, does that become public domain if he uses it in public?

This really depends on the product but, it sounds like you may want a provisional because your idea is not fully "cooked" (you are still developing the recipe so to speak). That is less than a $1000 if you do all the document prep.

If your buddy uses this in public it will not necessarily become public domain but ANYONE who sees it is free to apply for a patent if you have not first. It would be the same as if you posted a youtube video here of the product without an application on file. If you show it to people, get a confidentiality agreement (a good one).

You mentioned Protomold. I have used them for years for simple, 2 part "cut" molds. They do well with simple small parts for prototype development however their piece pricing is probably not good for a production part.

This is all generalizations based on speculation. Probably could give you better information if you would estimate how many of these things you intend to sell per year. A 100,000 pc/yr product is a completely different thing than a 1000 pc/yr.

You might want to consider writing a business plan. It's a good sanity check and you will need it if you intend to attract investors.

[Ummgawa]

Best advice is to keep your idea a secret and show it to no one. I made the mistake of having a design I created digitally done by a real dirt bag who sold it to someone else saying it was his to sell because HE did the artwork although I paid him for his services. The purchaser, in turn, bastardized my design making it a ridiculous interpretation of what I intended, but did win a major design award with it.

I was stupid, please learn from my mistake. Lawyer up ahead of time and show it to NO ONE. Intellectual property means be smart (intelligent) enough to keep it to yourself, and ownership will stay all yours.

Good Luck.