Question? $2,500 C4 Corvette TriFive all new frame Think there's a maket?

[rat_rod_russell]

So I've been working with cooler and cooler technology and I've come up with an idea to convert my 55-57 frame for the guys who want to do it at home. A completely new frame for the 55-57's that takes the C4 corvette suspension front and rear that a guy with decent skills could build in his garage at home. It comes in a few UPS boxes, in a pile of parts and its all pegged and slotted tubing and flat steel cut on a CNC laser. So all a normal guy would need is 3x F clamps, a 2' x 5' flat table to clamp to, measuring tape, decent welding equipment and the knowledge to use it. And I'll do a full set of videos online so you can watch me showing how to do the frame with just the above mentioned tools. No huge frame jig and no super crazy measuring equipment needed.

Does it sound interesting? Does it sound like the right price range for the do it yourself guys? I know my 6k frame is just over the top for most guys and without the new CNC technology you could have never built this frame without my massive jig. But now if you could imagine all the parts keyed like a jig saw puzzle so you can't even mix up the parts. Then the only way to screw it up is if you don't give it the cool down time the parts need after you clamp them to the flat table and weld them out.

Please tell me what you think, I'm open to any and all suggestions.
- Russell

[jy211]

at that price I think you'd have people interested.

[takid455]

YOU WOULD NEED to do something w/ the legal end as if someone duct tapes it together and then crashes. Then comes after you b/c you made the parts.

A frame is a pretty serious piece. However, the kit car companies do it. I would do it under a subsidiary company in case something did happen.

[nickcornilsen]

It's for supporting a car body in a display situation only :D

Go with C5 suspension... much better stuff, and getting easier to find than C4 stuff IMHO. Making the differentials stand alone (w/out the trans axle) is not to difficult.

And at that price, are the customers going to have to source thier own parts?

[rat_rod_russell]

YOU WOULD NEED to do something w/ the legal end as if someone duct tapes it together and then crashes. Then comes after you b/c you made the parts.

A frame is a pretty serious piece. However, the kit car companies do it. I would do it under a subsidiary company in case something did happen.

Right I have a pretty substantial contract already for the Frames we build for the 55-57's.

It's for supporting a car body in a display situation only :D

Go with C5 suspension... much better stuff, and getting easier to find than C4 stuff IMHO. Making the differentials stand alone (w/out the trans axle) is not to difficult.

And at that price, are the customers going to have to source thier own parts?

LOL, This guy don't know me very well do he, lol. You might check out the link in my sig

Seriously the reason I'm doing this is because I'm tired of the C4 suspensions and I want to go all C5/6. But I have a fully developed and tested frame why just discontinue it. As I get my other C5/6 chassis online and tested, including my C5/6 Differential Adapter that turns the stock trans-axle into a stand alone differential, I'll stop building the C4 rolling chassis and welded frames all together and just do the kit frames and my lovely C5/6 frames.

Thanks guys
-Russell

[96z28ss]

Not sure how this is different, but Ironworks already makes a DIY frame kit.

The other issue your going to have is the C4 stuff is starting to get harder to find. I think Newman chassis is now having certain C4 parts made cause of availability.

[nickcornilsen]

Right I have a pretty substantial contract already for the Frames we build for the 55-57's.



LOL, This guy don't know me very well do he, lol. You might check out the link in my sig

Seriously the reason I'm doing this is because I'm tired of the C4 suspensions and I want to go all C5/6. But I have a fully developed and tested frame why just discontinue it. As I get my other C5/6 chassis online and tested, including my C5/6 Differential Adapter that turns the stock trans-axle into a stand alone differential, I'll stop building the C4 rolling chassis and welded frames all together and just do the kit frames and my lovely C5/6 frames.

Thanks guys
-Russell


Indeed, I don't know you at all... Now that i see your C5 design, I think you should just kit that up, forget the C4 stuff!
I like your extensive use of CAD... It makes the job so much easier doesn't it?

[214Chevy]

....... but Ironworks already makes a DIY frame kit.

Has Ironworks released theirs to the public yet? I mean are they ready to sell them to the buyer yet? Last I heard, they were not just ready to release them to the average joe quite yet.

[out2kayak]

Are you willing to live with the liability risk? Unfortunately, we live in a very litigious society.

:cheers:

[rat_rod_russell]

Indeed, I don't know you at all... Now that i see your C5 design, I think you should just kit that up, forget the C4 stuff!
I like your extensive use of CAD... It makes the job so much easier doesn't it?

Lol, I need funds to finish the C5/6 stuff but depending on how this works out that might very well happen after I thrash mine for at least 10k and get 10 in the feel with feed back from other guys to make sure that its possible then we'll look as selling it as a do it your self at home kit.

Has Ironworks released theirs to the public yet? I mean are they ready to sell them to the buyer yet? Last I heard, they were not just ready to release them to the average joe quite yet.

I've seen Rodgers frame and its awesome. I put it a little out of the rang of most home builders but very much a solid solution for a shop with a proper table and a tig for sure. My plan of attack is a little different. Instead of all flat plate parts I'm going to do it all from rectangular tubing. My frame is also subdivided into small self jigging sections to stop any thing from getting out of line. I'm also planning on covering shrinkage and I'm also going to give some examples of it in our movies so guys know why you say "Do as I say." I find if you reason with a person and give them logic to think about they take it to heart much faster.

Are you willing to live with the liability risk? Unfortunately, we live in a very litigious society.

:cheers:

Theirs always risk. Anything worth doing has risks and I plan to cover that in my videos. I also think the frame is over engineered enough with extra gusset plate all over the place to take up the slack. I'm also going to include several extra scrap parts in the kit so the welder can practice before jumping off into the frame welding.

I should probable post a photo
http://www.hotrodjim.com/immages/trifive/C4/v5_bare_frame/l-1.jpg

This is the current one, minus the exhaust of course.

http://www.hotrodjim.com/immages/projects/customers_projects/Don_Hearld_57_2D_HT/exhaust/l-1.jpg

I'm going to re design it a little in the back. That's my fathers original design and I've always wanted to change it.

Here's one of the lasers at work if you've never seen a 3D laser this might give you a better idea of what I'm planning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeGVbtrrHjE

Thanks again guys for the input
-Russell

[GregWeld]

You want to witness what heat does to metal -- just watch the larger slot cut on that laser and you'll see the metal curl...

Personally -- I think there's a huge market for DIY kits like this.... and I've said a million times... that you don't (as a manufacturer) really care if they ever see the light of day. Most "hot rods" have been sitting unfinished in the garage for years and never get done. The lower the cost of the parts - the higher the likelihood that the project never gets finished - because that customer looses interest or runs out of money etc well before the project is near completion. I'm not being negative about that type of build.. it's just factual.

I disagree with the others about the liability. There is no more liability than buying A arms and installing them yourself - or brakes - or bolting on your own set of wheels... and people do this millions of times daily.

[Budweasel]

I agree with Greg on the liability issue. Don't think it is as big a hurdle as it is made out to be.

[Tom.A]

Russell,

Your frame looks nice but with respect I think this sounds more like a sales ad that really should be reserved for companies supporting/paying to advertise here on Lat-G. I can think of four companies here that build complete frames and they spend several hundred dollars per year to do so. They are all long time supporters of this site in no specific order: Roadster Shop, Art Morrison, Ironworks and Schwartz. Sorry if I left others out.
Maybe it would be good to sign up and be a supporting vendor?

[rat_rod_russell]

You want to witness what heat does to metal -- just watch the larger slot cut on that laser and you'll see the metal curl...

Personally -- I think there's a huge market for DIY kits like this.... and I've said a million times... that you don't (as a manufacturer) really care if they ever see the light of day. Most "hot rods" have been sitting unfinished in the garage for years and never get done. The lower the cost of the parts - the higher the likelihood that the project never gets finished - because that customer looses interest or runs out of money etc well before the project is near completion. I'm not being negative about that type of build.. it's just factual.

I disagree with the others about the liability. There is no more liability than buying A arms and installing them yourself - or brakes - or bolting on your own set of wheels... and people do this millions of times daily.

Its an unfortunate fact about the industry but a valid point. I want my customers to be comfortable with their projects before I sell something and on 2 occasions (When I was younger and more naive) I told the guy I would not sell him a frame because I thought what he was planning was dangerous. Now you just cover your but with a contract and make enough money to have a lawyer on call BUT like you said, 50%-75% of these projects will never make it that far.


I agree with Greg on the liability issue. Don't think it is as big a hurdle as it is made out to be.

And I feel comfortable enough with it to cut guys loose on it. I hope that says something about it, lol. The video will make more since too.

Russell,

Your frame looks nice but with respect I think this sounds more like a sales ad that really should be reserved for companies supporting/paying to advertise here on Lat-G. I can think of four companies here that build complete frames and they spend several hundred dollars per year to do so. They are all long time supporters of this site in no specific order: Roadster Shop, Art Morrison, Ironworks and Schwartz. Sorry if I left others out.
Maybe it would be good to sign up and be a supporting vendor?

Yes it can be looked at that way. I haven't designed anything yet nor am I selling anything yet either. What I really wanted the input from the discerning members of this forum to let me know if they thought it was a good idea or not. I'm only 25 and know I'm still young and dumb so I wanted the opinion of others who have been around the industry and end user about their thoughts. I really love the Lateral-G forum, the information is quality with little to no BS. TONS of killer information and right people to provide it without a lot of fluff or mud slinging but I have had people point out BAD ideas to me and discuss them with me on how to improve them. I love that part of LG. (notice I didn't ask this question on PT.com) If this looks like an AD to a mod please feel free to slap me in the face but just don't band me, it was not my intention. I will definitely become a sponsor before I try to sell anything but first I need a product to sell and a shop that's truly my own. That I'm working on setting up right now with 2 of the guys I took with me to SEMA in 09 for you guys who saw us there with the PT-57.

Thanks again for all the input and please keep it coming (if that's ok?).
-Russell

[rat_rod_russell]

So I'll take my lashings for this I'm sure but I wanted to see what everyone thought. I have the prototype and I have a video. PM me if you want to see it. Its got my new shop logo all over it so I figured I better not post it directly. Some of the admins I've talked too here didn't think the idea would get any traction as an idea but I would like to here from other fabricators about what they think when they see it go together in the video.

Thanks
-Russell

:hail: :lateral:

And if you want to get mad at me for not being an adviser yet just don't post. The thread won't go back to the top and it will die or get lost and forgotten.

[T-Bolt]

I decided to try out this kit. I've always got several projects going at at time and wanted to build something to test out some suspension and engine mods before I get to the final build. For those of you that might be interested in what this kit looks like, my flatpack arrived yesterday with the C4 kit.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/ke6507/IMG_2042.jpg

The entire chassis fits onto a double pallet, 4x8x2. Smaller package than I thought (which is good). I had it dropped off at my house. At 400lbs+ I shoehorned it into the garage while I make space for the build. I put the crate on a pair of furniture dollies which made it easy to get into the garage from the truck.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/ke6507/IMG_2052.jpg

I ordered the welding tabletop along with the C4 kit, so this is how it was packed:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/ke6507/IMG_2048.jpg

The tops are laser cut instead of water injection. I checked them for trueness and they are flat with no warpage. I need to weld the table tops together (top and bottom with some spacers that Russ included). This is not a job for a beginning welder. The tops are 11 gauge and can warp if too much heat is applied.

After I removed the table tops, this is the basic kit:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/ke6507/IMG_2054.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/ke6507/IMG_2055.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/ke6507/IMG_2049.jpg

The laser cuts are clean and this looks to take average mechanical and TIG skills to assemble. It comes with some alignment jigs and all the subassembly parts are bagged together. The box tubing and other parts use 11 gauge, so this should be a solid chassis when I'm done.

It will be few weeks before I can start to weld the kit. I put in an entire kitchen from Ikea, so this has to be easier.

[214Chevy]

Start a build thread as soon as you unbox that baby. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[56pickup]

Start a build thread as soon as you unbox that baby. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I agree!

:thumbsup:

[Andrew]

Right I have a pretty substantial contract already for the Frames we build for the 55-57's.



LOL, This guy don't know me very well do he, lol. You might check out the link in my sig

Seriously the reason I'm doing this is because I'm tired of the C4 suspensions and I want to go all C5/6. But I have a fully developed and tested frame why just discontinue it. As I get my other C5/6 chassis online and tested, including my C5/6 Differential Adapter that turns the stock trans-axle into a stand alone differential, I'll stop building the C4 rolling chassis and welded frames all together and just do the kit frames and my lovely C5/6 frames.

Thanks guys
-Russell

You really peaked my interest with this comment. Is it anything like the chassis concepts adapter? If I remember correctly they are somewhere around $1300ish.

I remember seeing some talk (text) about retrofitting an 03-04 8.8" housing into the c5/c6 sub-frame as well.


On topic that kit looks really well put together. A bit overwhelming at first but I imagine one step at a time it would piece together very nicely.

[jy211]

I put in an entire kitchen from Ikea, so this has to be easier.

:hail: :hail: :hail: :D

[SLO_Z28]

One thing to consider is that in order to produce a frame you will need to be able to produce a MCO (Manufacturers Certificate of Origin) for the customer. Getting the certificate will require you to get a VIN number, and there is a lot involved in that with the DOT. There is a whole bunch of regulatory hurdles to jump through, all of which SEMA can help you with for a price. I would say its at least $25,000 and hundreds of hours to just get the paperwork side of it going.

[Flash68]

One thing to consider is that in order to produce a frame you will need to be able to produce a MCO (Manufacturers Certificate of Origin) for the customer. Getting the certificate will require you to get a VIN number, and there is a lot involved in that with the DOT. There is a whole bunch of regulatory hurdles to jump through, all of which SEMA can help you with for a price. I would say its at least $25,000 and hundreds of hours to just get the paperwork side of it going.

So you're saying every aftermarket frame manufacturer out there has one of these and provides to all buyers upon purchase?

[214Chevy]

So you're saying every aftermarket frame manufacturer out there has one of these and provides to all buyers upon purchase?

I was just thinking the exact same thing.

[SLO_Z28]

So you're saying every aftermarket frame manufacturer out there has one of these and provides to all buyers upon purchase?

Yes they are supposed to, per FMVSSA 49 CFR 567.7 as detailed in FMVSSA 49 CFR 568. .

[214Chevy]

Yes they are supposed to, per FMVSSA 49 CFR 567.7 as detailed in FMVSSA 49 CFR 568. .

From my understanding, that doesn't apply to classic/old cars. It's talking about new/newer cars. I highlighted that portion in red. The other statements are talking about cars manufactured on or after January 1, 2000. Our cars are waaay older than that. One other statement is talking about vehice weight exceeding the weight other than labeled. But, it's talking about passenger cars manufactured before Jan 1, 2000.


Title 49: Transportation
PART 567—CERTIFICATION


§ 567.7 Requirements for persons who alter certified vehicles.

A person who alters a vehicle that has previously been certified in accordance with §567.4 or §567.5, other than by the addition, substitution, or removal of readily attachable components such as mirrors or tire and rim assemblies, or minor finishing operations such as painting, or who alters the vehicle in such a manner that its stated weight ratings are no longer valid, before the first purchase of the vehicle in good faith for purposes other than resale, shall allow the original certification label to remain on the vehicle, and shall affix to the vehicle an additional label of the type and in the manner and form described in §567.4, containing the following information:

(a) The statement: “This vehicle was altered by (individual or corporate name) in (month and year in which alterations were completed) and as altered it conforms to all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards affected by the alteration and in effect in (month, year).” The second date shall be no earlier than the manufacturing date of the original vehicle, and no later than the date alterations were completed.

(1) In the case of passenger cars manufactured on or after January 1, 2000, the expression “safety, bumper, and theft prevention” shall be substituted in the statement for the word “safety”.

(2) In the case of multipurpose passenger vehicles (MPVs) and trucks with a GVWR of 6,000 pounds or less manufactured on or after January 1, 2000, the expression “and theft prevention” shall be included in the statement following the word “safety”.

(b) If the gross vehicle weight rating or any of the gross axle weight ratings of the vehicle as altered are different from those shown on the original certification label, the modified values shall be provided in the form specified in §567.4(g) (3) and (5).

(c) If the vehicle as altered has a different type classification from that shown on the original certification label, the type as modified shall be provided.

[38 FR 15963, June 19, 1973, as amended at 43 FR 21891, May 22, 1978; 45 FR 18929, Mar. 24, 1980; 64 FR 38595, July 19, 1999]

[T-Bolt]

When I get started I can post this as a new project.

As for the regulatory issues, I've done too many bad things to good cars to repent now.

[rat_rod_russell]

Yes they are supposed to, per FMVSSA 49 CFR 567.7 as detailed in FMVSSA 49 CFR 568. .

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has a legislative mandate under Title 49 of the United States Code, Chapter 301, Motor Vehicle Safety, to issue Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and Regulations to which manufacturers of motor vehicle and equipment items must conform and certify compliance.

These are regulations for manufacturing of new vehicles not rebuild or reconstruction.

Each state has their own rules for modifying or replacing frames. As a worst case scenario you can have the car re titled as an "Assembled Vehicle" and you just have to show the purchase of the body, frame and motor to get a new VIN issued to you. In Texas you can even have them put the year that the car looks like on the title. Then pass a safety inspection by a state trooper with the auto theft division.

-Russell