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wmhjr
07-24-2011, 01:35 PM
OK guys, as mentioned in a couple other threads I've concluded I need to immediately put an oil cooler in the poncho. At Motor state I was easily getting my oil temp into hte 260 range at Gingerman. At Heidts any doubt was immediately eliminated when I hit 300, and had to back way off and baby the car for the road course element. The cause of this is that my block is bottom filled to the freeze plugs in order to get the power from that pontiac standard block safely.

Currently I have an adapter plate mounted to the block with 2 1/2" NPT ports, which I installed 1/2" NPT to -10AN fittings. These currently go to a frame rail mounted Canton oil filter setup. My plan is to re-engineer that and have the lines instead go forward, to an oil filter somewhere in the vicinity of the engine bay, and then to a front mounted oil cooler in front of my radiator.

I have several questions.

1) Any recommendations on the most effective cooler? Frank has a pretty nifty looking unit that I'm interested in - it's in the Bull run racer, and can be had either with or without fans. I don't know that the fans would be helpful (pusher fans) considering the rad fans will be pulling through anyway, and I don't have much power available, so I'd probably have to run a new power line directly from the battery.

2) Even though the ports on the block will be 1/2" NPT, is -10AN enough for the lines? Pretty much anything they attach to will be 1/2" line connections. Would -12 in the lines themselves really help?

3) Engine temps have been relatively manageable. Normally I'm at 180-190. When the oil heats way up, the water temps also get up to 210-215, sometimes 220. However, it's briefly and I think it's possible that between the oil temp and heating up the hard block that reducing the oil temp may also result in a little drop in peak water temp when I'm really hammering. But that's just a theory. Thoughts?

4) At present, before the oil REALLY heats up, my oil pressure is about 75psi at start, and around 50-60 after warm-up. I'm concerned about pressure drops after adding all the volume/lines/cooler, but plan to run it as is and watch it. If pressure drops much at all, during the off season I'm pulling the engine and putting a higher pressure Melling pump in the motor. Thoughts?

I need to start this change quick, so any and all advice is very very welcome!

BTTBSS
07-25-2011, 09:11 PM
Do you have a stock oil pump? HV pumps will bypass a lot of oil and the cooler may not help much. I have -10AN on my LT1-383 and a huge EARLS cooler. Oil still hits 285-300 after twenty minutes of open track running. Good synth oil
helps. German Castrol 0W-30 has stood up well confirmed by Blackstone labs. Mobile has a new track use oil with twice the zinc of regular oil supposed to be good up to 400 degrees but its about $ 15.00 a qt. Somebody try it and let me know how it works.

wmhjr
07-25-2011, 11:29 PM
I do not have a stock pump. I'm running a worked over Melling M54D. I don't think it's going to bypass enough - frankly if it did that would also mean that the filter itself would be totally ineffective.

I'm running Brad Penn partial synthetic 20-50. I change oil after every track event.

ccracin
07-26-2011, 07:25 AM
Bill,

I have never been a fan of putting the oil cooler in front of or combining it with the radiator. First, if you use an internal heat exchanger in the rad for either oil or trans fluid,(not that you suggested this) you still only have the surface area of the rad fins to transfer the heat out of the water. Therefore unless you increase the rad size accordingly you can only remove so much heat. This is a pitfall I saw a lot in racing. Guys would swap a standard rad for one with a built in oil heat exchanger of the same core dimensions and continue to have problems. In the end, they still didn't have enough heat exchanger area to remove the heat. This all leads to my next comment. If you put the oil cooler in front of the radiator, then the heated air will now be moving through the radiator and will now not be able to remove as much heat from the cooling system. My recommendation would be to run and external cooler mounter somewhere other than in front of the radiator. The one in the Bull Run car was recommended by Wegner. We will probably look into that one as well. The fan gives you more versatility in mounting if you can't mount it somewhere you are able to get a duct to it. If the only place you have to mount it is in front of the rad, then so be it. That is not as bad as building it into the rad. You are at least adding heat exchanger area. I would not put the pusher fan on it then. If you didn't have it running all the time, all it would do is block the natural air flow from it and the radiator since it would be in front. (This is why I don't like pusher radiator fans as well)

As for pressure drop, you are going to have to give it a shot and go from there. Obviously the more elbows the more pressure drop down stream. The bigger the line the better as well. We'll be talking. :cheers:

wmhjr
07-26-2011, 08:33 AM
Chad, thanks. I'm concerned about the same issues. I really don't have another area to stick a cooler that I can think of. Space is an issue to say the least. I could probably stick it in the engine compartment behind one of hte headlight buckets "maybe" but there is no air flow and the effectiveness of the cooler would be suspect to say the least. The Bull run car has that PRC cooler (I think) but it is mounted in front of the radiator without the fan. I agree that assuming that the unit is mounted at the correct spacement (maybe an inch or less) in front of the rad I'm better off using the integrated shroud/fan on the back of the rad to pull air through than anything else. I think I could have two results from it.

I think it's possible that during track time, I'd see reduced overall temps as airflow and lowered oil temps would reduce overall operating temps. However it's also possible that in "street" traffic kind of driving, I could end up with higher water temps due to the loss of heat exchange in the radiator but not enough airflow.

ccracin
07-26-2011, 08:44 AM
We were looking at this cooler since we have a PRC rad and the quality is top notch.

http://www.prchotrod.com/products/prc-cooling-accessories.php

wmhjr
07-26-2011, 08:55 AM
That is exactly the PRC cooler I'm looking at. I would like to see it unshrouded (without the fans). I'm a little concerned about how it will block the radiator.

ccracin
07-26-2011, 09:01 AM
Have you looked at mounting it horizontal in front of and at the base of the rad? You would have to run fans unless you put some type of dam or splitter on the car to direct air up through it. Thinking out of the box a bit. :question:

wmhjr
07-26-2011, 09:33 AM
I have but don't think there is enough room in front of the rad/core support to fit it. I would be very surprised if there were. The other issue would be that it would be right up against the bumper if that could even happen, so you'd risk catastrophic failure of the oiling system even if you just bumped the bumper. There really isn't any room other than n front of hte rad/core support due to the (low) height of the car.

ccracin
07-26-2011, 09:47 AM
Fine then, I say jack the engine up and build a new car around it! :rofl:

wmhjr
07-26-2011, 10:00 AM
Exactly. I'll start right on that. What kind of chassis can I get for $75?

Track Junky
07-26-2011, 11:37 AM
I'm using a System One remote oil filter system, Setrab 14"x6" oil cooler, Mocal oil thermostat, all done in 12 AN lines. The oil filter and cooler are mounted left and right of radiator.

I have some old pics that i will post. With temps reaching as high as 300 I would definitely pick up a larger cooler with fan and thermostat.

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab73/Gitter_Dun/Day%203%20Just%20a%20little%20cleanup%20work/Day3001.jpg
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab73/Gitter_Dun/Day%203%20Just%20a%20little%20cleanup%20work/Day3002.jpg

Bow Tie 67
07-26-2011, 11:44 AM
I'm using a System One remote oil filter system, Setrab 14"x6" oil cooler, Mocal oil thermostat, all done in 12 AN lines. The oil filter and cooler are mounted left and right of radiator.

I have some old pics that i will post. With temps reaching as high as 300 I would definitely pick up a larger cooler with fan and thermostat.

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab73/Gitter_Dun/Day%203%20Just%20a%20little%20cleanup%20work/Day3001.jpg
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab73/Gitter_Dun/Day%203%20Just%20a%20little%20cleanup%20work/Day3002.jpg

Gaetano what type of oil temps are you seeing on 90* day 20 min sessions? Water temps?

Track Junky
07-26-2011, 11:48 AM
Last year on a 104* day I never saw water temps over 200*.Oil temps have never been over 220*

Flash68
07-26-2011, 11:53 AM
Last year on a 104* day I never saw water temps over 200*.Oil temps have never been over 220*

That sounds like a system that is working well. I am deciding on my oil cooling right now and I think I will be mimicing your setup or very close to it. We have an Earl's cooler that is about 13" x 9" but it is -10AN and I really want to step up to -12AN I think.

Your Mocal thermostat is set at 180*, correct?

Track Junky
07-26-2011, 12:34 PM
Your Mocal thermostat is set at 180*, correct?

That is correct, oil flow opens to cooler at 180*. The Setrab oil cooler was picked up off of E-Bay from some sort of NASCAR affiliation.

wmhjr
07-26-2011, 12:43 PM
Last year on a 104* day I never saw water temps over 200*.Oil temps have never been over 220*

Wow! What engine combo?

I'm also assuming that the -12 lines, etc plumb into what are effectively 1/2" NPT fittings on the filter adapter and the engine adapter?

Track Junky
07-26-2011, 01:13 PM
Wow! What engine combo?

I'm also assuming that the -12 lines, etc plumb into what are effectively 1/2" NPT fittings on the filter adapter and the engine adapter?

I'm running an aluminum PBM small block 427. Dynoed at 620 hp at 6500 and 550 torque at 5000.

The System One billet block adaptor comes with male -12 AN fittings built into them

Either way, I still recommend you add a fan to your oil cooler with 300* oil temps.

The WidowMaker
07-26-2011, 01:13 PM
im running one in the radiator. its better than nothing, and i dont plan many track events over a few laps. i do have a chevelle and it runs a wider radiator and larger fans than the camaros. im hoping that the added volume negates the oil cooler being inside. prc has a bitchin setup and i hope it works as well as they say. todds running the same setup and i havent heard of any issues.

CarlC
07-27-2011, 01:03 AM
The Mocal thermostats will bypass some oil through the cooler below the set temperature. Mine is the higher 203*F version and I can't make the oil get that hot. On the street the temps never get over 180*, and that's on a really hot day + running the engine hard. I have a three-way ball valve that will go in soon so that the cooler can be isolated for non-track days. Cold oil is no bueno.

wmhjr
07-27-2011, 07:14 AM
Carl, I hope to have the same issues. During normal driving, my oil temp is 180 even on hot days in traffic. It's at the track that's the issue. I have the Prc cooler on order now. Keeping my fingers crossed. I just need to deal with getting the oil to the cooler, as there is a challenge with that in my build.

CarlC
07-27-2011, 11:15 AM
Too cold is not a good problem. Too high a viscosity + the inability to boil off water contamination = bad news. Excessive wear due to too high a viscosity, oil pump wear, no boiling off of water contamination, corrosion, etc. Synthetics and multi-viscosity oils do help, but maintaining a proper operational oil temperature is the best way to insure long engine life. 180* is nothing for a motor oil.

wmhjr
07-27-2011, 11:24 AM
Too cold is not a good problem. Too high a viscosity + the inability to boil off water contamination = bad news. Excessive wear due to too high a viscosity, oil pump wear, no boiling off of water contamination, corrosion, etc. Synthetics and multi-viscosity oils do help, but maintaining a proper operational oil temperature is the best way to insure long engine life. 180* is nothing for a motor oil.

Carl, what I meant is that if I could lower my operating temp so that I'm worried about TOO cool I would prefer that. If nothing else, I could manually bypass the cooler most of the time and engage it only for track days. I seriously doubt that it will be the case. Keep in mind that the car is not run in "cold" weather at all. It's a May to Oct car here in PA. No heater, defroster, it's a vert, and salt comes out in Nov and isn't really washed off the road surfaces until May. That means outside temps for when the car is running varies from around 50s at the coldest, to 100 or so.

Currently, it takes a bit during normal street driving to get the oil to 180 but then that's where it stays. That being said, I'm not usually pushing the engine on the street. I'm running Brad Penn partial synthetic 20-50.

wmhjr
07-28-2011, 01:09 PM
Thanks, guys. Here's my plan so far based on info I got here as well as over on Lat-G and from some other sources....

I have the PRC Extreme unit on order based on some feedback I got a few days ago. I'm not using the fan but will instead mount in front of the radiator using yet to be determined and fabricated.

I also have the Canton oil regulator that will be delivered in the next day or so. According to what I've researched so far, it's the one that has the highest potential volume throughput based on internal dimensions. Having talked to Canton, SRC, Fluidyne, and a whole bunch of other folks and based on the geometry of where I need to pull the oil connections from the block, I'm going with -10 lines.

I should have everything except the cooler by tomorrow night, and will work on how I'm going to get those block connections as well as fitting the oil filter and oil thermostat (hopefully). The Canton thermostat is pretty bulky, so there is a possibility that I won't be able to find a mounting location for it and would then switch to an Earls or Mocal.

I appreciate all the info, and will share pics as well as results once I get that far.

wmhjr
08-08-2011, 12:20 PM
Update as of Aug 8th 2011.....

Made some progress (based on available time) on the oil lines/cooler setup. There is just so little room to work on this car. There is no room "under" the car, and no airflow that's safe other than in front of the radiator - unless I was going to fabricate a completely new core support and move stuff around in the engine bay.

Here is what the front end looks like sans grill and bumper...
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm210/wmhjr_album/1966pontiac/Prepping%20for%20HPDE%20events/DSC_5123.jpg

I decided to use the PRC cooler in front of the rad, but also add a Canton oil thermostat. Here is the thermostat with some mockup fittings?
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm210/wmhjr_album/1966pontiac/Prepping%20for%20HPDE%20events/DSC_5125.jpg

Oil comes in one side (shown on left in pic), and until oil hits 215deg it goes straight out the right side. When it hits 215, it goes out one of the middle ports to the cooler and then back in the other middle port, and then back out. It apparently has the least resistance and highest flow of any thermostat. I was concerned about a couple things. During normal "street" driving, my water temps are 190-195, and my oil temp is 180-190. At its worst, I got my oil to almost 300 before I shut it down, and water temp was around 220. I worried that during normal street driving, the hot oil in the cooler would reduce the cooling efficiency of the radiator and increase my engine temps in traffic. I was also worried that on cool days, I'd never get my oil temps to reasonable levels and run too cool oil. The thermostat solves for both of those issues.

I decided to vertically mount the cooler in front of the passenger side of the rad.
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm210/wmhjr_album/1966pontiac/Prepping%20for%20HPDE%20events/DSC_5134.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm210/wmhjr_album/1966pontiac/Prepping%20for%20HPDE%20events/DSC_5131.jpg

The vertical mounting brackets are 6061 aluminum 1/2"x3/4" stock, which I drilled lightening holes in.

I mounted the oil thermostat kind of behind the front bumper .
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm210/wmhjr_album/1966pontiac/Prepping%20for%20HPDE%20events/DSC_5130.jpg

I decided to switch to a different Canton oil filter assembly, mounting it inside the engine bay kind of behind the passenger headlight. An oil line will run from the engine block plate up to between the passenger fender/inner fender, to the oil filter. It then comes out of the filter, back over toward the fender and down/around to get to the "in" port of the thermostat. The 2 cooler ports are already plumbed to the cooler. The final port will return oil back to between the fender/inner fender and then down to the engine block plate.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm210/wmhjr_album/1966pontiac/Prepping%20for%20HPDE%20events/DSC_5136.jpg

I installed the revised block plate with fittings last night. I only have left making 3 more lines. The engine to filter, the filter to thermostat, and the thermostat to engine.

Ron in SoCal
08-08-2011, 01:06 PM
Hey Wm - nice write up so thx for that. I'm in the middle of planning my oil cooling system, was all set on the Canton thermo just like you and Penny, but a local racer supply shop steered me to Derale instead. Have you looked at this or have any opinions on the unit? It's -12 AN in and out, lightweight, small and easily mounted.

For lack of a better link:

http://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Derale/D25719.html?feed=npn&gclid=CKeiptKjwKoCFQUSbAodf1l-Lg

wmhjr
08-08-2011, 01:56 PM
Ron, I did a bunch of reading. I will say that it was hard to separate fact from opinion. I got a general "concensus" that the Canton was capable of significant more flow and less restriction due to much larger internal passages. The Canton unit is also actually -12 ports on the unit, which you can either stick with -12 or reduce to -10. I found some info on a Factory Five Cobra forum as well as some other places.

I am very concerned about restrictions, and that was the reason I went ahead with the Canton. Frankly, either would probably work and there are probably minimal differences - other than the Canton thermostat is 215deg and the Derale is 180deg. For my purposes, I would prefer the 215deg. I don't want to be cooling it when the oil is 185deg.

Ron in SoCal
08-08-2011, 01:59 PM
Ron, I did a bunch of reading. I will say that it was hard to separate fact from opinion. I got a general "concensus" that the Canton was capable of significant more flow and less restriction due to much larger internal passages. The Canton unit is also actually -12 ports on the unit, which you can either stick with -12 or reduce to -10. I found some info on a Factory Five Cobra forum as well as some other places.

I am very concerned about restrictions, and that was the reason I went ahead with the Canton. Frankly, either would probably work and there are probably minimal differences - other than the Canton thermostat is 215deg and the Derale is 180deg. For my purposes, I would prefer the 215deg. I don't want to be cooling it when the oil is 185deg.

Yes opinions do abound on this stuff! Derale does look to be straight in/out so I'm gonna try it. Looking forward to your next oil 'heat cycle' (track day) report....:thumbsup:

wmhjr
08-08-2011, 02:18 PM
Yes opinions do abound on this stuff! Derale does look to be straight in/out so I'm gonna try it. Looking forward to your next oil 'heat cycle' (track day) report....:thumbsup:

We'll have to compare notes. One comment - neither unit is really "straight in/out". I'd say the Canton is closest - when the thermostat is closed anyway. The derale unit has the thermostat apparently 90 degrees to the oil flow blocking both in/out. I can't remember where, but I did find a site that had a cutaway of both units and the canton oil galleries were massive compared to the Derale, but honestly I don't know if it really works that way in reality. There are NO real "measured data points" that I could find comparing the two.

Honestly, I'm interested in just getting the car back on the road to test it under regular driving conditions just as much as on the track.