What do you do when your product is knocked off?

[Ringbrothers]

I think that we have kept quiet long enough. We would like everyone to know that Ringbrothers DID bring the first billet hood hinges to the market. Once they were quickly knocked off Mike and Jim came out with a new design to set us apart for all of the copies on the market. In NO WAY are we private labeling for the company below that blatenly ripped off our design not once but twice.

Mike and Jim are car builders first - so they know what it takes to make a product that works. When you are looking for hood hinges please keep in mind that development and prototyping cost a lot of money - reverse engineering is little to no cost.
I guess we should feel honored that someone would copy EXACTLY what we design (twice) becuase they can't come up with it on their own. The only problem is I get calls weekly of not daily that the knock off's product doesn't work. Please support original innovators in the industry.
http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu283/Ringbrothers/FeslerKnockOff.jpg

[JKnight]

Yeah, this is really very sad. Unfortunately, when I saw Fesler's "new" product release I thought, hmmmm, those look exactly like the RingBros design.

I don't have any advice for you guys, but can say that awareness of these issues will always drive my purchasing decisions.

[GregWeld]

#1 is you call your lawyer.... and then you'll find out, that in order to have protected your design, you will have had to do many different steps BEFOREHAND.

The problem with stuff like this is that most people don't spend the money, time, and effort it takes to protect their designs in advance of product release... and then you're fair game for being knocked off.

[garickman]

Not to stir the pot...but I am just a hobby builder. Most of my projects I have sold before completion for lack of funds. I did build a 1968 and a 1969 camaro in which I used Ring Brothers hood hinges. RB's is first class all the way, as people, a business, manufacturers and car builders. In my 5 or 6 short years in this hobbly I had heard a lot of negative things about the company you are referring to. Both in quality and the fact that many of thier products were rip-offs such as the majority of thier frist gen camaro products. Other than what I have heard, I have no first hand knowledge of Fesler's products, thier marketing or business strategies. I do know that many of their products do appear to have come along after other companies have done the R&D and made these products popular to the public.

My current 1967 Chevelle Police Tribute Car has and will have Ring Brothers products all over it, including hood hinges, door handles, door strikers, hood adjusters, hood pins and hopefully the new touch start. I will continue to support Ring Brothers and thier innovative designs.

[Rick D]

I think that we have kept quiet long enough. We would like everyone to know that Ringbrothers DID bring the first billet hood hinges to the market. Once they were quickly knocked off Mike and Jim came out with a new design to set us apart for all of the copies on the market. In NO WAY are we private labeling for the company below that blatenly ripped off our design not once but twice.

Mike and Jim are car builders first - so they know what it takes to make a product that works. When you are looking for hood hinges please keep in mind that development and prototyping cost a lot of money - reverse engineering is little to no cost.
I guess we should feel honored that someone would copy EXACTLY what we design (twice) becuase they can't come up with it on their own. The only problem is I get calls weekly of not daily that the knock off's product doesn't work. Please support original innovators in the industry.


You mean R&D (Rip off and Duplicat) And we wonder why China keeps growing. (No disrespect to the nation of China)

[ironworks]

Well the "Other Brand's" are not quite the same. The Ring Brothers hinges are not as sloppy as the "Others Brand". I personally don't like my hinges to be sloppy so I now buy my hinges from the Ring Brothers, I had a customer supply the other brand and we had to throw them away since they were so sloppy.

Unless you like your hinges like your sloppy Joe sandwiches, Buy Ring Brothers....

[67ragtp]

Ill tell what they did in the old days, it looks something like this :beathorse

Unfortunately theres not much that can be done with out legal protection. All I can tell you is you guys are the best, you got my purchase on your hardware and they didn't. Hopefully people will relize who has the best quality and the sale will come to you as a result.

Rich

[96z28ss]

this is why DSE puts patent on alot of the stuff they make.

I'm a designer and I have a couple design patents. Let me start off by telling you The Ringbrother hinge and the Fesler hinge are similiar. They are not a duplicate.

Ringbrothers hinge is an air frame design. The cut outs are all the way thru. The Fesler ones aren't they are just pockets. That alone is enough of a difference to state they didn't copy your design.

It stings a bit I know. You really have to move on and continue to come out with new products and build your brand up. You have to market your hinge as the First billet hinge and sell it as better quality than the competitors.

[Matt@BOS]

Yeah, this is really very sad. Unfortunately, when I saw Fesler's "new" product release I thought, hmmmm, those look exactly like the RingBros design.

I don't have any advice for you guys, but can say that awareness of these issues will always drive my purchasing decisions.

That's what I was thinking the other day too. Unfortunately, not everyone knows, who is actually creating the innovative products. Case in point, at SEMA last year, one of your competitor in question won a GM design award for "most innovative products."

I'm curious Greg, if the Ring Brothers had taken the time to protect their hinge design prior to release, would it matter in a situation like this? I've heard from a few small companies around here that the costs generally don't outweigh the benefits because if the design is changed 10 percent or so by the competitor, then it is fair game. In this case, the new hinges aren't completely "air-framed." Also, I kept thinking that there was a difference in the strut mounting position, but then I noticed both are now horizontal. I can't even keep up with who is being innovative anymore :willy:

Matt

[XcYZ]

If I were a photographer, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and started pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.

If I were a artist creating renderings, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and starting pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.

If I were a wheel designer, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and started pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.



This is no different. Fesler did nothing but photocopy a Ringbrothers product and start pumping it out the door. Ringbrothers have every right to be PISSED.

[70rs]

Your quality parts and customer service will win in the end.
Good luck with this. :cheers:

[HRBS]

We ONLY use Ring Brothers Hinges because along with a Quality Product, you get Quality Customer Service !!!
FYI.... While in Columbus we noticed our hood was not fitting as it should. Mike jumped in, brought me in the trailer and searched thru boxes for a "softer" piston that would work perfectly. Then on top of that, he walked over to the car in the middle of his BUSY day to check it out and see how I made out.
THATS TOP NOTCH SERVICE RIGHT THERE !!!!:thumbsup:

[dhutton]

I'll probably get flamed for this but this is what I posted over on the other site:

I've spent over 30 years in product development/engineering and although it seems unfair this is just normal product life cycle. When you first introduce something new and innovative profits and margins are high (at least they should be). Eventually competition comes on board followed by price erosion as each tries to maintain/gain market share. The best way to survive is to find lower cost ways to manufacture the product to help maintain margins. That and moving on to the next great new idea which starts the cycle all over again. In essence this is what you did when you introduced your geometric version. No one can expect to have a market all to themselves forever. Sooner or later someone notices your success and wants a share.

I know this is not what you are wanting to hear but this has been my experience/observation.

Don

[XcYZ]

I'll probably get flamed for this but this is what I posted over on the other site:

I've spent over 30 years in product development/engineering and although it seems unfair this is just normal product life cycle. When you first introduce something new and innovative profits and margins are high (at least they should be). Eventually competition comes on board followed by price erosion as each tries to maintain/gain market share. The best way to survive is to find lower cost ways to manufacture the product to help maintain margins. That and moving on to the next great new idea which starts the cycle all over again. In essence this is what you did when you introduced your geometric version. No one can expect to have a market all to themselves forever. Sooner or later someone notices your success and wants a share.

I know this is not what you are wanting to hear but this has been my experience/observation.

Don

Don, this isn't flaming you or argueing your excellent points, but rather my take on it...

This is no different than if I took a Hermance Design rendering, changed the color, added my logo, then started selling it. Just looking at it, you know it's a Hermance product. In this case, Fesler changed one design element, added his logo, then started selling it.

[Ringbrothers]

Don- I hope no one flames you (not sure what that means). We do understand the process this was just too much of a sting to not say anything. I don't want this to be a hateful thing. I just want for once to be clear on who is who and what is what. I wanted to say it many times before but the boy's would have fired me.

Staci

[XcYZ]

Don- I hope no one flames you (not sure what that means).

Meaning that he will get piled on for offering a different view/opinion. (I like differing views, that's how we learn. We certainly can't go through life with blinders on). :)

[96z28ss]

If I were a photographer, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and started pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.

If I were a artist creating renderings, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and starting pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.

If I were a wheel designer, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and started pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.



This is no different. Fesler did nothing but photocopy a Ringbrothers product and start pumping it out the door. Ringbrothers have every right to be PISSED.

You can be pissed. However pictures and art work is totally different.

You brought up a perfect situation. There are a ton of wheel manufacturers out there and they all have similar wheel designs. Some of them are almost exact copies of each other. Its just part of doing business.

I go to Sema every year. I walk the entire show, up and down every row, every building. Looking for new trends, see what competitors are doing, to help the company I work for to stay the leader in the industry. Every year I see knock offs of what we make.

I have Ringbrother, Fesler, and Marquez stuff on my car. I'm not taking sides one way or the other.

[Ricochet]

There is no question from the "Mass" production side of the house that Fesler has the market. For those that have compared their products to the innovators, whether it be hinges (Ring Bros) or tail lights (Marquez), there is no comparison when it comes down to the overall quality, fit and finish.

That just my .02

[XcYZ]

You can be pissed. However pictures and art work is totally different.

How is it different? It's still a product, not a service.

I see using a photocopier to copy 2D products the same as using a rapid prototyping scanner to copy 3D products.

[skatinjay27]

be carefull staci, last time they were called out there was almost a physical fight at the marquez booth...lol unfortunatly its their M.O. and their just gonna keep doing it. They have done it to pasqual with so many many products I can't even imagine how he feels...

[GregWeld]

I'm curious Greg, if the Ring Brothers had taken the time to protect their hinge design prior to release, would it matter in a situation like this? I've heard from a few small companies around here that the costs generally don't outweigh the benefits because if the design is changed 10 percent or so by the competitor, then it is fair game. In this case, the new hinges aren't completely "air-framed." Also, I kept thinking that there was a difference in the strut mounting position, but then I noticed both are now horizontal. I can't even keep up with who is being innovative anymore :willy:

Matt

Good question, Matt, for which I have no answer. I would ASSume that you'd copy right/patent the design aspect of the hinge being billet... and several other more "cohesive" design elements in order to give you the broadest possible protection. Even then - I'm not sure what could be copy righted and or what that costs. My guess is - it's prohibitive. I just spent a quarter million on litigation and it was a very simple issue. The bills get real high - real fast, when it comes to "legal stuff". At some point it just isn't economically feasible.

[Hdesign]

I've been watching this thread with A LOT of interest and since Scott brought my name up in an example I'll add my $.02 for what it's worth.

What I provide is a service, I produce intangible design solutions to problems. The only product I produce currently is a print of the final design. The intellectual property is owned by myself and/or my client depending on the agreement.

There is no more difficult position to be in than a designer/artist when it comes to protecting intellectual property and art. It's a real Catch 22. 25% of my week is spent battling someone from using unauthorized art in ads, or attempting to sell multiple prints and shirts from a design I've done in the past, or a shop ripping off an innovative design element a client paid me to. All they have to do is ask and we can figure out something that is mutually beneficial.

Then again, I do like having my work viewable as marketing assets. Potential clients need to see my thought process in order to feel confident in my services. I have to hang intellectual property out in the breeze for all to see, knowing that it's going to get ripped off and I won't get credit. It happens more than I'd like to admit.

I have to be a rabid pitbull sometimes and it's incredibly frustrating. Some people are either totally ignorant to intellectual property laws or they flat out don't give a damn. They don't realize/care that this is what puts food on a designer/artist's table. They're literally stealing from my family.

That said, I'm moving into the next phase of my business plan which includes development of parts, prints and apparel. The amount of legal BS that I've been dealing with for the past 12 months is insane, but I want to be sure I'm protected from every single angle against this stuff. I know I'm not going to stop every lazy slug from ripping off something but I'll at least be able to sleep at night.

The other aspect that's helpful is communities like this where we can expose these practices to some degree. If we can shed light on the situation, I'm confident people will make the right choice when they're shopping.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

Co-Muthafuken-Signed, Ben...

[redfire69]

When I saw the advertisment, I thought they looked like duplicates. There's only but so many ways to make a taillight, but I thought the Nova taillights look alot like the Marquez one's debuted at SEMA last year too....

[214Chevy]

When I saw the advertisment, I thought they looked like duplicates.......

That's kind of what I said too. I said..."Uhh Ohhh!! They look exactly like Ring Brothers." And I knew RB hinges were on the market first.

[BBC71Nova]

Honestly, the other day when I saw the Fesler post I initially thought the same thing. It is true that they are different since they are still solid but similar nonetheless.

RB is top notch. I like the Fesler stuff too. The ones that frustrate me the most are the companies that don't appear to have any interest in the industry besides copying someone else's designs and making a buck off them. I guess technology makes it all to easy with machined parts these days. I won't name companies but I think we all see them in the industry. It seems to really be an issue on the performance parts side of things, e.g. intakes, blocks, etc. And now there are a few making billet pieces very similar to products from Clayton Machine, RB, Marquez and even Fesler. IMHO I don't feel that Fesler falls into the category of these others design thieving companies. However, in this case these are similar and I'd agree that RB has a point.

[LowchevyII]

I remember seeing the RB hinges for quite some time then saw Fesler and the Eddie Motorsports ones. For the simple fact I know RB was the innovator, they have my business when I pull the trigger on my set. Is Fesler still a supporting vendor or still on this site at all? Perhaps they can chime in a bit here?

[NOPANTS68]

Got my RB hinges for the warden's Chevelle this last Wednesday. They look far better than I had hoped. A couple buddies thought that was crazy money for a decorative item, but when I layed one in their hands they went silent for a minute. lol I wouldn't run the competitive product for reasons that have nothing to do with billet.

[Vegas69]

I have mixed feelings on this deal. I have your hinges and hood pins and the quality is the cream of the crop. When somebody gets on my nerves, I hate to let them know they got under my skin. I understand why you called them out. To the casual observer, they may not realize that there is a difference in quality and the people behind the products. Unfortunately, China is probably next and you don't have a pot to piss in......

[RECOVERY ROOM]

Didn't Fesler get banned from Goodguys shows?. I feel for you Mike that just sucks.

[Stuart Adams]

Didn't Fesler get banned from Goodguys shows?. I feel for you Mike that just sucks.

Same thing I heard. I feel bad for anyone that has their stuff, that takes years of work and money, copied. Ringbrothers are a class act.

[bigtyme1]

In my opinion Mike, you guys have earned the respect of the general public and that can only help your business. We know who to go to for the best service and products. The copy cats are just going to hurt themselves in the long run. We got your back. :cheers:

[RECOVERY ROOM]

What he said ^^^

[garickman]

Didn't Fesler get banned from Goodguys shows?. I feel for you Mike that just sucks.

According to Fesler himself, he is banned forever!

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10150125913569030&id=197873614029

[Ummgawa]

I'm surprised here. I was completely expecting Mr. Fesler to get on and make all sorts of claims about everything he's done for the Hot Rod business and do his usual "Screw You" approach when challenged in matters concerning integrity. I also heard he has been banned from Good Guys events for an "Incident" involving someone on his staff.

Trust me, I've been screwed by someone over a design "issue" and he knows who he is and the truth. Those that matter know the truth and that is all that matters now.

You RB boys are first class, something you just can't write a check for. Everyone here knows the truth.

[skatinjay27]

I'm surprised here. I was completely expecting Mr. Fesler to get on and make all sorts of claims about everything he's done for the Hot Rod business and do his usual "Screw You" approach when challenged in matters concerning integrity. I also heard he has been banned from Good Guys events for an "Incident" involving someone on his staff.

Trust me, I've been screwed by someone over a design "issue" and he knows who he is and the truth. Those that matter know the truth and that is all that matters now.

You RB boys are first class, something you just can't write a check for. Everyone here knows the truth.dont worry im sure he will... he prob just has logged on yet.

[Lenie]

I love this site!

[novanutcase]

I, for one, can completely understand the frustration you must be going through.

In my industry(clothing) the courts have ruled that any garment can be copied to a tee as long as the label doesn't denote the brand of the original. That means that I can copy any piece of clothing as long as I don't use their brand label.

I've had many graphic designs copied and used by other brands and, in the beginning, tried to sue them for copyright infringement but as long as they change some small element in the design they can claim that it is not an exact copy. It cost me a lot of money and stress only find out that I didn't have a leg to stand on and that my efforts were in vane.

As mentioned, you have to weigh whether the cost of litigating the issue is worth it in the end.

John

[killer67]

This thread has brought to light a very prevalent issue. Staci - you did the right thing by bringing this up (should have been done sooner but your job is also important :lol: ). You deserve a raise for bugging Mike & Jim about this matter.

We are going to commodotize this industry way too soon if this keeps happening to you and any other innovators (thank God there are still lots of them left).

Most of us know that you are the original designers and many people will support you if only for that reason. Others will stray to save $100 and unknowingly hurt the industry pioneers.

I purchased 3 Ring Brothers items and they are all first class craftsmanship with a keen eye for design. I would buy anything I needed from them again.

Tell the brothers to not be discouraged by people saying, "this is inevitable - it's not worth the investment." It is this indifference and and pursuit of instant gratification that will deteriorate this relatively new and awesome hobby of ours.

off the :soapbox: now :)

[96z28ss]

Also, I kept thinking that there was a difference in the strut mounting position, but then I noticed both are now horizontal. I can't even keep up with who is being innovative anymore :willy:

Matt

I started thinking about what you wrote Matt.
On my camaro I have the old style Ringbrothers Hinge. It has the shock pointing downward. Also my early version has an adjustable link that tie the 2 arms together (they stopped doing that) . These were the only Hinge at the time of purchase. attachment 1.

I did a search here for when Fesler announced his hinge summer of 2007 this thread.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10434

Looking at the pictures you can see that his hinge is more then a 10% difference. The base is different, his shock placement is different, the arms are different.

The weird thing is that now Ringbrothers changed the camaro hinge to a base and shock position that look more like the Fesler ones. attachment 2.

One reason why I can think of is cost of manufacturing. The base being smaller and the one arm being smaller.

Like I said before I have both the RB and Fesler stuff on my car. What you shouldn't do is call out someone for taking an idea when its happened the other way around also.

Billet parts is a hard business to get into and not have competitors run with your ideas. Look at the Billet motorcycle parts. Most of it is now made in China. It hasn't reached the pro-touring parts yet but it will. Ever walk the Asia market section at SEMA?

You need to market and brand yourself as the First, and having a more superior Quality than the competitors. Also to be successful you have to be first to market with new products. That way your selling as much as you can before the competition can make a similar product.

[70rs]

I love this site!

Me too!

[GregWeld]

Didn't Fesler get banned from Goodguys shows?. I feel for you Mike that just sucks.


Yes they did... both personally and company wise.

[Al Moreno]

Yes they did... both personally and company wise.

Greg, does that mean he can't attend the shows personally?

If that is the case, I would wounder what they'd do to the guy if they saw him roaming around?

[GregWeld]

Greg, does that mean he can't attend the shows personally?

If that is the case, I would wounder what they'd do to the guy if they saw him roaming around?


Shoot to kill.:rofl:

[ssx]

I've been thinking about buying a set of hinges for my Nova for a while. I have looked at Ring Bros., Fesler and EMS...and without question go with Ring Brothers now!!!

[nvr2fst]

Is there a price difference between the two?
With that said, could this be a "you get what u pay for"
If there priced equivalent, than its basically up to the consumer to chose from there. I definitely understand the RB's frustration, but as most of posted theres not much you can do. It basically comes down to marketing/customer service in my opinion. RB has innovated a lot of really cool products over the years that most likely will continue to be somewhat copied.
I look at it this way, its like buying body panels... most tend to purchase Goodmark ("the original/preferred") in lieu second hand overseas companies following suit. Personally I like to stick with "the originator"

[clill]

I believe AMD makes the better sheetmetal now.

http://www.autometaldirect.com/aboutus.aspx

[nvr2fst]

I believe AMD makes the better sheetmetal now.

http://www.autometaldirect.com/aboutus.aspx

Maybe so Charley, but that somewhat wasnt the point I was trying to make.
No need for reply, dont want to steer thread offtrack.

[jcal87]

Isnt Fesler a supporting vendor? Up until this thread I have always thought they were a reputable name.

[DOOM]

I started thinking about what you wrote Matt.
On my camaro I have the old style Ringbrothers Hinge. It has the shock pointing downward. Also my early version has an adjustable link that tie the 2 arms together (they stopped doing that) . These were the only Hinge at the time of purchase. attachment 1.

I did a search here for when Fesler announced his hinge summer of 2007 this thread.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10434

Looking at the pictures you can see that his hinge is more then a 10% difference. The base is different, his shock placement is different, the arms are different.

The weird thing is that now Ringbrothers changed the camaro hinge to a base and shock position that look more like the Fesler ones. attachment 2.

One reason why I can think of is cost of manufacturing. The base being smaller and the one arm being smaller.

Like I said before I have both the RB and Fesler stuff on my car. What you shouldn't do is call out someone for taking an idea when its happened the other way around also.

Billet parts is a hard business to get into and not have competitors run with your ideas. Look at the Billet motorcycle parts. Most of it is now made in China. It hasn't reached the pro-touring parts yet but it will. Ever walk the Asia market section at SEMA?

You need to market and brand yourself as the First, and having a more superior Quality than the competitors. Also to be successful you have to be first to market with new products. That way your selling as much as you can before the competition can make a similar product.

Bob well said!!!!

[Matt@BOS]

Isnt Fesler a supporting vendor? Up until this thread I have always thought they were a reputable name.

They are a supporting vendor, and they are reputable group of people, when it comes to selling products. Perhaps they did not have the most professional behavior at the time that they were banned from Good Guys shows, and while they do have a number of parts that are very similar to a few other vendors here, to my knowledge (and I have ordered from Fesler on occasion) you aren't going to be ripped off.

Matt

[GregWeld]

I would agree with Matt.... I had Chris work on my daughters Mustang suspension (she's in college down there) -- they did great work and were far more reasonable than I expected - and I gave Chris carte blanche to just "do whatever it takes".

However, I still think it's morally and patently (not patent as in legal) wrong to plagiarize anyone else's work and or designs without their consent regardless of what it is or who it is.

[DRJDVM's '69]

I can understand wanting to "update" or offer a slightly different version of their hinge to stimulate some more business, but why do almost the exact same design as another exsiting company?

They could have just as easily machined a different pattern....why the "triangular" style, just like RB? Why not a more "square" pattern or "linear pattern" or round cutouts etc etc. There are quite a few way to change it up without doing something just like the Ring Bros.

I can understand that when you make a new and innovative part and its a success, you will end up have copies coming out of the woodwork.....but it will still piss me off.

[Ralphlovs72chev]

I've been watching this thread with A LOT of interest and since Scott brought my name up in an example I'll add my $.02 for what it's worth.

What I provide is a service, I produce intangible design solutions to problems. The only product I produce currently is a print of the final design. The intellectual property is owned by myself and/or my client depending on the agreement.

There is no more difficult position to be in than a designer/artist when it comes to protecting intellectual property and art. It's a real Catch 22. 25% of my week is spent battling someone from using unauthorized art in ads, or attempting to sell multiple prints and shirts from a design I've done in the past, or a shop ripping off an innovative design element a client paid me to. All they have to do is ask and we can figure out something that is mutually beneficial.

Then again, I do like having my work viewable as marketing assets. Potential clients need to see my thought process in order to feel confident in my services. I have to hang intellectual property out in the breeze for all to see, knowing that it's going to get ripped off and I won't get credit. It happens more than I'd like to admit.

I have to be a rabid pitbull sometimes and it's incredibly frustrating. Some people are either totally ignorant to intellectual property laws or they flat out don't give a damn. They don't realize/care that this is what puts food on a designer/artist's table. They're literally stealing from my family.

That said, I'm moving into the next phase of my business plan which includes development of parts, prints and apparel. The amount of legal BS that I've been dealing with for the past 12 months is insane, but I want to be sure I'm protected from every single angle against this stuff. I know I'm not going to stop every lazy slug from ripping off something but I'

[QUOTE=Hdesign;359906]The other aspect that's helpful is communities like this where we can expose these practices to some degree. If we can shed light on the situation, I'm confident people will make the right choice when they're shopping.

I will agree with you. After reading this thread i will now buy only RB. Im glad that they came out and said something. Its sad how things work in this world but im sure glad that we have :lateral: .

[elitecustombody]

I agree with 96z28ss, looking at the pics,the hinges are not same or even close. People need to understand, that no matter of design, they still have to bolt up to factory bolt holes serve their purpose as factory,so in the end they might have simillar look,because of it compact constraints ,the moving parts can only have certain shape.

I don't know how Fesler came up with their version,but there is nothing wrong with variety and good competition,as long as it's not exact copy and all good quality stuff. However I can somewhat relate ,because I have some time in design and producing composite parts.But at the same time you can't expect or assume that you are the only company that will be making and selling hinges or any billet parts. There are plenty of companies with high-tech equipment and software that can design and produce parts out of billet or some exotic materials.I am a big fan of RB :lateral: Just keep at it,be creative and put out quality parts,you will succeed.:woot:

I will also say that Chris is a good vendor and anyone dealing with Fesler will get great customer service .:thumbsup:

[camaro_in_another_life]

Hello everyone, it is Carrie Fesler. . . Chris’ wife. Chris would love to respond personally but he is currently behind the wheel of our show rig driving us and our displays to MN. So for now, I will have to do.

First and foremost, I would like to thank Ring for posting our newest advertisement on the front page of this thread. . .complete with our website and phone number.

Second, I hope this (what is now a) 6-page thread was able to mend the hearts, pride and minds of Mike and Jim Ring. I can’t imagine going through life or trying to run a business with stuff like this getting under your skin.. . .especially with what is out there right now. Hopefully all the well wishes and pats on the back will be enough to get them through.

Third, Bob said it best in his post. I could have not summed it up better (of course I will be forced to try) or with better examples. It is disappointing though that no one really acknowledges (even the administrators) his post or the accuracy of it. Instead, the fingers keep typing without absorbing anything other than what fits their vindictive minds. To refresh everyone’s memory. . .

I started thinking about what you wrote Matt.
On my Camaro I have the old style Ringbrothers Hinge. It has the shock pointing downward. Also my early version has an adjustable link that tie the 2 arms together (they stopped doing that) . These were the only Hinge at the time of purchase. attachment 1.

I did a search here for when Fesler announced his hinge summer of 2007 this thread.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10434

Looking at the pictures you can see that his hinge is more then a 10% difference. The base is different, his shock placement is different, the arms are different.

The weird thing is that now Ringbrothers changed the camaro hinge to a base and shock position that look more like the Fesler ones. attachment 2.


Fourth, I know I would never be able to leave this post with just that so I will defend us with the following facts. . .
Fact 1: Ring Brother did create the first billet hood hinge for both the 67-69 Camaro and 64-66 Mustang. For comparison purposes, I will be referring to the Camaro hinge since that is the one everyone is moaning about. Just as Bob stated, when Ring first introduced their hinge their base was quite a bit larger than it is now and their strut came down at roughly a 45-degree angle. They also used a heim joint. . .not a dogbone.

Fact 2: Fesler (in 2007) approached Ring with a 1970 Chevelle hood hinge which we had designed for a customer’s car. We had no interest in manufacturing hood hinges and thought Ring would be the best choice to approach with our design to see if they would be willing to private label our design for us just as they were doing for DSE (which by the way was the first company to SELL billet hood hinges). It was shocking to learn that Ring had zero control over their manufacturing process and simply subbed the work out to small production shops. It was also disappointing to learn that they had no interest in creating parts for the Chevelle market since it was, according to them, a soft market with little chance of selling. Left with no other choice and believing that the Chevelle market was worth entering, we stepped up, bought the necessary machinery and began manufacturing what is now known as the 708 hood hinge for 69-72 Chevelles. A hinge that Ring now offers coincidently.
So, after being snubbed by these supposedly coolest and most down to earth people ever we continued to expand our line by re-engineering the Camaro hinge to operate correctly, alleviate the firewall rubbing from the angled arm and discontinued the use of the inadequate and dangerous heim joint and replaced it with our dogbone that we copied from our dog’s name tag hanging from his collar. We also managed to increase the hood opening by more than 6 additional inches with the new “horizontal strut” design. It does not take a genius to figure out what type of strut position Ring’s hinges are in now or that their magical, necessary heim joint has disappeared from their design.
With that being said, let’s address the air frame or geometric design. I am a business. The end goal of any business is to make money. If it wasn’t, it would be called a hobby, not a business. So, knowing that we are a business, we are here to make money. Those of you who know us already know that we decide what product to make by how many requests we get from the public. This determines the order in which we design, prototype and manufacture new products. If people constantly ask me for a product I do not have, you can bet your britches I am going to offer it. I highly doubt Ring turned away any customers who wanted SS struts instead of their black Lucid struts back when they did not offer SS. I bet they found a way to find and sell what their customers were asking for.

Fact 3: Fesler designed, prototyped, manufactures and sells right around 29 first gen Camaro specific products along with an additional 14 or so universal parts that will fit the Camaro. Ring, according to their website as of today offers right around 8 products specific to the first gen Camaro. I don’t think it is necessary that I go on and on comparing products but it is obvious that Ring has come out with product similar to ours after we have initially introduced them.

Fact 4: Fesler is a business and because of the overwhelming positive feedback and requests for new products we are now a serious manufacturing facility. Ring are car builders, and great ones at that, who supplement their builds with sales of some of the products they have designed for customer cars. I am only assuming this is their position and I may be wrong but from what I observe, Ring seems far more committed to continuing to build their impressive, award winning projects than they do to creating a massive line of billet parts. It’s hard to do both.. . we know.
We are so committed to manufacturing that we spend stupid amounts of money to attend SEMA every year and display our products in our own booth. Other companies do not “pony up” per say for that position, they simply share space with other, larger exhibitors to avoid the real cost of operating, displaying and advertising as a real manufacturer. These are the reasons General Motors along with other reputable companies such as Baer Brakes, OER, Chris Alston’s Chassisworks, Ididit, Asanti, PRC, just to name a few have recognized our efforts and dedication to producing a quality product. It’s not like we pull this stuff out of thin air, we work hard for products and the recognition we receive.

Fact 5: In reference to being called out one year at SEMA, yes there was incident involving Fesler and Marquez. I can only imagine what the story is now, years later, regarding this event but the fact of the matter remains that the incident was a heated discussion that turned angry when one individual felt it necessary to refer to someone’s wife as an “F-ing Stupid B!t@^”. As you can imagine, that didn’t go over well. Other than that, the conversations we have with Marquez are our business and unless he feels it necessary to include all of you, I simply will not go there. Of course I will be accused of avoiding the situation and not explaining or answering to your questions, however, it is none of your business and is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Fact 6: Fesler has been banned from all future Goodguy’s event. . . voluntarily. This resolution was mutual between the Goodguy’s organization and Fesler. If you were not there, then you don’t know what happened. Plain and simple we were bored of the price increases, favoritism, and decreasing spectator and participant attendance. It costs money to attend shows, set up, man the booth and leave a running business so the ROI (return on investment) has to be there for it to be worth it. Simply said, Goodguy’s wasn’t working for us anymore. So we moved on. We are still attending shows, just not on the Goodguy’s circuit.

Finally, both Chris and I have the utmost respect for Ring Brothers (or at least we did until this post) and Marquez design. All of these guys are great designers and truly stand out in this industry. We have never disputed that. . .ever. Just because we have our differences, doesn’t mean we still cannot respect each other. These message boards are so full of people picking fights and others joining whatever cause make them feel slightly better about themselves. If you are not in the manufacturing business, then personally I don’t feel you are qualified to even have an option. Just because you read about it on the internet, doesn’t make it so.

I am over the he said, she said drama. I have no interest in pointing fingers and any attempts to say I did so are pure ignorance on the person who dares. The market is big enough for everyone, even the ones that don’t do it right. Competition is what drives any market and if you don’t believe me, pay attention to some advertising heavy hitters like Coke vs Pepsi or Chevy vs Ford or Kleenex vs Puffs.

Buy the brand you like based on what you know personally. That is a decision I can understand and respect.

Until next time. . . happy motoring.

[skatinjay27]

lol...??? Yeah that respect was def. Shown in the marquez booth a few years back...
the post was created out of frustration because when you all got into the billet biz (after have rb and marquez products on hand) rb decided to be creative and differ their design form the "traditional" hinge look with the air frames and you bite that design plan and simple since your not artists and just in the biz of making money (yes your very good at that aspect of it, customer service and knowing what's needs to be brought in the market)you don't understand how upsetting it it when others just rip off your personla creative
work...

[LowchevyII]

my "Thread Closed" senses are tingling.

[XLexusTech]

With all do respect.. Mr or Mrs Fesler whichever posted the above it seems to me that you saying your product is not the same because a boss is thicker or the strut is on a Diff angle or that you used a heim joint over a dog bone.

Are you saying its OK to copy a product make some simple changes and that is OK?

Or are you saying you engineered a product very much like the originator by happenstance and as evidence note the angle difference on the strut and the joint Difference?

ALSO for what do you attribute your companies ability to release so many products? Do you outsource the R&D or what because I can see how you could make so many products without a head start.

[The WidowMaker]

i can understand that the pickup points need to be the same and that RB should not feel entitled to being the only manufacture, but to copy the arms air frame design was a slap in the face. that for me put it over the top.

[Sparks67]

With all do respect.. Mr or Mrs Fesler whichever posted the above it seems to me that you saying your product is not the same because a boss is thicker or the strut is on a Diff angle or that you used a heim joint over a dog bone.

Are you saying its OK to copy a product make some simple changes and that is OK?

Or are you saying you engineered a product very much like the originator by happenstance and as evidence note the angle difference on the strut and the joint Difference?

ALSO for what do you attribute your companies ability to release so many products? Do you outsource the R&D or what because I can see how you could make so many products without a head start.


Actually, a co-worker friend of mine is a USAF scientist and has several patents. Even patents can be copied as long as there is changes in the design. Although, he gets upset when a company does an exact copy of his design. Then he has to go to court over it. Does Fesler or Ringbrothers have patents on their hinges? No! Are they exact copies? No, they are similar but not exact copies of each other. I bought a set of Ringbrother's hinges, but I wish that they opened farther like the Fesler design. I sent an email in the past to Ringbrother's requesting that change to be made in the airframe design, they refused to do it. So if Ringbrothers want to make a better hinge, then just change the design and make it more functional. Competition is good for the consumer.

Jeff

[ccracin]

I really think this is one of those threads that really is not going to help or solve anything. No matter what anyone says, there are still going to be people that will believe what they want. Personally, I don't think this thread looks good for either vendor. We have seen these discussions before. Should Chevrolet be upset that someone is making a hinge other than theirs? The geometry is close but not exact between the billet hinges and the stockers. Both of these vendors are very good and very knowledgeable. Each have their own specific strengths. I think the consumer needs to research both products and companies and choose what fits. As an aside, I have not purchased from either vendor. If either one had a part I needed, I don't think I would hesitate to buy from either. Let me expand more. As some of you may know, we are building a truck. I love the look of the billet hinges. For quite some time, no one made a billet hinge for our truck. I am an Engineer and decided to design my own. I have one modeled in Solidworks. I just have not gotten to the point of building it because we are not ready for it. Now, a couple companies offer it. If I were to make mine now and try to market it, would I be accused of copying? At this point, I will probably purchase one that is on the market now. It simply does not make financial sense for me to follow through with my design. It would cost me far more than just buying them. Let's take it a bit further. If when I buy a set and by chance decide I am not happy with the quality or operation, am I precluded from redesigning them and trying to bring a superior product to market just because mine would look similar to another? I think you will find there are a huge number of companies that have been born and thrive based on the sole principle of trying bring their own superior version of something that already exists to market. The best example I can come up with is the wheel industry. If the first billet wheel was the only one allowed, we would all be pretty unhappy.

In the end, I think the Ring Brothers are first class and highly talented. I don't think you guys should be worried or upset. If you feel you were copied, be flattered and continue to raise the bar. Also, Fesler has introduced many more products to the market that allow all of us to have choices when it comes to bring our visions to life. Parts that RB do not offer. We should all do our own research an decide based on our own wants and needs who we purchase from. I think that is what a free market is all about. I encourage all the vendors to keep pushing the envelope of design and performance so that we don't end up with cars that all look the same! :lateral: :cheers:

[XLexusTech]

Actually, a co-worker friend of mine is a USAF scientist and has several patents. Even patents can be copied as long as there is changes in the design. Although, he gets upset when a company does an exact copy of his design. Then he has to go to court over it. Does Fesler or Ringbrothers have patents on their hinges? No! Are they exact copies? No, they are similar but not exact copies of each other. I bought a set of Ringbrother's hinges, but I wish that they opened farther like the Fesler design. I sent an email in the past to Ringbrother's requesting that change to be made in the airframe design, they refused to do it. So if Ringbrothers want to make a better hinge, then just change the design and make it more functional. Competition is good for the consumer.

Jeff

I get it and agree with everything you said... I just want to know if Fesler created these from scratch or by modifying the existing design...

[elitecustombody]

Actually, a co-worker friend of mine is a USAF scientist and has several patents. Even patents can be copied as long as there is changes in the design. Although, he gets upset when a company does an exact copy of his design. Then he has to go to court over it. Does Fesler or Ringbrothers have patents on their hinges? No! Are they exact copies? No, they are similar but not exact copies of each other. I bought a set of Ringbrother's hinges, but I wish that they opened farther like the Fesler design. I sent an email in the past to Ringbrother's requesting that change to be made in the airframe design, they refused to do it. So if Ringbrothers want to make a better hinge, then just change the design and make it more functional. Competition is good for the consumer.

Jeff

I agree.I guess Fesler just needs to machine round holes instead of airframe to keep RB nutswingers shut.

People need to realize there is only so much you can do to make a bolt-on custom hinge that replaces stock hinge.

[elitecustombody]

I really think this is one of those threads that really is not going to help or solve anything. No matter what anyone says, there are still going to be people that will believe what they want. Personally, I don't think this thread looks good for either vendor. We have seen these discussions before. Should Chevrolet be upset that someone is making a hinge other than theirs? The geometry is close but not exact between the billet hinges and the stockers. Both of these vendors are very good and very knowledgeable. Each have their own specific strengths. I think the consumer needs to research both products and companies and choose what fits. As an aside, I have not purchased from either vendor. If either one had a part I needed, I don't think I would hesitate to buy from either. Let me expand more. As some of you may know, we are building a truck. I love the look of the billet hinges. For quite some time, no one made a billet hinge for our truck. I am an Engineer and decided to design my own. I have one modeled in Solidworks. I just have not gotten to the point of building it because we are not ready for it. Now, a couple companies offer it. If I were to make mine now and try to market it, would I be accused of copying? At this point, I will probably purchase one that is on the market now. It simply does not make financial sense for me to follow through with my design. It would cost me far more than just buying them. Let's take it a bit further. If when I buy a set and by chance decide I am not happy with the quality or operation, am I precluded from redesigning them and trying to bring a superior product to market just because mine would look similar to another? I think you will find there are a huge number of companies that have been born and thrive based on the sole principle of trying bring their own superior version of something that already exists to market. The best example I can come up with is the wheel industry. If the first billet wheel was the only one allowed, we would all be pretty unhappy.

In the end, I think the Ring Brothers are first class and highly talented. I don't think you guys should be worried or upset. If you feel you were copied, be flattered and continue to raise the bar. Also, Fesler has introduced many more products to the market that allow all of us to have choices when it comes to bring our visions to life. Parts that RB do not offer. We should all do our own research an decide based on our own wants and needs who we purchase from. I think that is what a free market is all about. I encourage all the vendors to keep pushing the envelope of design and performance so that we don't end up with cars that all look the same! :lateral: :cheers:

Chad, you nailed it:thumbsup:

[4mm]

Actually, a co-worker friend of mine is a USAF scientist and has several patents. Even patents can be copied as long as there is changes in the design. Although, he gets upset when a company does an exact copy of his design. Then he has to go to court over it. Does Fesler or Ringbrothers have patents on their hinges? No! Are they exact copies? No, they are similar but not exact copies of each other. I bought a set of Ringbrother's hinges, but I wish that they opened farther like the Fesler design. I sent an email in the past to Ringbrother's requesting that change to be made in the airframe design, they refused to do it. So if Ringbrothers want to make a better hinge, then just change the design and make it more functional. Competition is good for the consumer.

Jeff

I really think this is one of those threads that really is not going to help or solve anything. No matter what anyone says, there are still going to be people that will believe what they want. Personally, I don't think this thread looks good for either vendor. We have seen these discussions before. Should Chevrolet be upset that someone is making a hinge other than theirs? The geometry is close but not exact between the billet hinges and the stockers. Both of these vendors are very good and very knowledgeable. Each have their own specific strengths. I think the consumer needs to research both products and companies and choose what fits. As an aside, I have not purchased from either vendor. If either one had a part I needed, I don't think I would hesitate to buy from either. Let me expand more. As some of you may know, we are building a truck. I love the look of the billet hinges. For quite some time, no one made a billet hinge for our truck. I am an Engineer and decided to design my own. I have one modeled in Solidworks. I just have not gotten to the point of building it because we are not ready for it. Now, a couple companies offer it. If I were to make mine now and try to market it, would I be accused of copying? At this point, I will probably purchase one that is on the market now. It simply does not make financial sense for me to follow through with my design. It would cost me far more than just buying them. Let's take it a bit further. If when I buy a set and by chance decide I am not happy with the quality or operation, am I precluded from redesigning them and trying to bring a superior product to market just because mine would look similar to another? I think you will find there are a huge number of companies that have been born and thrive based on the sole principle of trying bring their own superior version of something that already exists to market. The best example I can come up with is the wheel industry. If the first billet wheel was the only one allowed, we would all be pretty unhappy.

In the end, I think the Ring Brothers are first class and highly talented. I don't think you guys should be worried or upset. If you feel you were copied, be flattered and continue to raise the bar. Also, Fesler has introduced many more products to the market that allow all of us to have choices when it comes to bring our visions to life. Parts that RB do not offer. We should all do our own research an decide based on our own wants and needs who we purchase from. I think that is what a free market is all about. I encourage all the vendors to keep pushing the envelope of design and performance so that we don't end up with cars that all look the same! :lateral: :cheers:


I agree.I guess Fesler just needs to machine round holes instead of airframe to keep RB nutswingers shut.

People need to realize there is only so much you can do to make a bolt-on custom hinge that replaces stock hinge.

I completely agree with all of the above.

[mexMan]

Yeah, people usually agrees on anything they know they can't lose with.

Anyway, I think I might be losing something, and maybe all of us are too, because I saw the designs, and they're not that similar (they're really different) but if the brothers are doing this is for a reason, so that's why I think we're missing something around here. They can't be mistaken, I mean, has Chris showed up in here yet? He hasn't said a thing about this (not that I'm calling him guilty, I don't want to get misunderstood here) but I'm still thinking that we're missing something important, anyway, let's Jim and Mike Ring solve this with Chris @ Fesler, they're the big boys around here.

And a 19 y/o is going to tell you this, you all (yes you the mature people, the grown ups) look like a bunch of 8 year olds.

[clill]

The Ring Brother's hinges open further than stock now as I compared Stielows with my stock ones on Jackass. I just need to get a set. Ring Brother's are the absolute guys that thought of and built them first on a car they had at SEMA. I t was their idea. If you want to do the right thing you will buy from the guys that came up with it first. It isn't like they gouge...They build nice stuff. As I recall Fesler showed a Camaro tail light a couple years ago that was a exact copy of a tailt light that Lillard MFG wrote the programming for and built for Marquez. It was exact right down to the random fixture holes on the back side.

[Shmoov69]

And a 19 y/o is going to tell you this, you all (yes you the mature people, the grown ups) look like a bunch of 8 year olds.

LoL!!! Quote of the day!! :cheers:

RB came up with them it appears, Fessler made them available to other cars that were not of intrest to RB. What about Holley and Demon? Is this the same thing? Holley came up with the design and all waaaay before Demon came and made some improvements. That's just business IMO, the "innovators" will continue to innovate and the "others" will continue to capatilize and improve what was already thought up by others.
Right or wrong?? I dunno, but it is the way it is.



Now an EXACT copy......that is a totally different issue altogether! :_paranoid

[Streetking]

The Ring Brother's hinges open further than stock now as I compared Stielows with my stock ones on Jackass. I just need to get a set. Ring Brother's are the absolute guys that thought of and built them first on a car they had at SEMA. I t was their idea. If you want to do the right thing you will buy from the guys that came up with it first. It isn't like they gouge...They build nice stuff. As I recall Fesler showed a Camaro tail light a couple years ago that was a exact copy of a tailt light that Lillard MFG wrote the programming for and built for Marquez. It was exact right down to the random fixture holes on the back side.

Exactly. Just keep building the best products you can, people that know quailty will always keep coming back to you.:thumbsup:

SW

[Jr]

The Ring Brother's hinges open further than stock now as I compared Stielows with my stock ones on Jackass. I just need to get a set. Ring Brother's are the absolute guys that thought of and built them first on a car they had at SEMA. I t was their idea. If you want to do the right thing you will buy from the guys that came up with it first. It isn't like they gouge...They build nice stuff. As I recall Fesler showed a Camaro tail light a couple years ago that was a exact copy of a tailt light that Lillard MFG wrote the programming for and built for Marquez. It was exact right down to the random fixture holes on the back side.

Didn't you once admit that you are too cheap to purchase a set of billet hinges for Jackass?...

[phillym5]

Marquez Design... and the Ring Brothers are the truth....

nuff said.

[Sparks67]

The Ring Brother's hinges open further than stock now as I compared Stielows with my stock ones on Jackass. I just need to get a set. Ring Brother's are the absolute guys that thought of and built them first on a car they had at SEMA. I t was their idea. If you want to do the right thing you will buy from the guys that came up with it first. It isn't like they gouge...They build nice stuff. As I recall Fesler showed a Camaro tail light a couple years ago that was a exact copy of a tailt light that Lillard MFG wrote the programming for and built for Marquez. It was exact right down to the random fixture holes on the back side.

Well, that is nice to know. I never knew that they changed the design. I just got my RB hinges a month ago, but it will be awhile before the hood goes on. I never bought any of Fesler parts. Just the design didn't appeal to me.

Jeff

[Stuart Adams]

Put yourself in RB situation. You go thru the design, engineering , production, etc. Which takes alot of work, time and money. Then you hopefully are lucky enough for it to be likeable and purchaseable. Then you take the expensive plunge to make some for sell. Now you must make enough to pay for some of the costs to bring it to market.

Then someone copies your piece bypassing the events in the first paragraph. That would make anybody upset, right. No matter what the product is, in any arena.

Competition is one thing, making a better product is great, but copying really goes across the line IMO.

[Silver69Camaro]

Man, this thread really hits home for me. We've seen numerous copies of our designs (and branding) out there and it really ticks me off. We have even had some competitor's staff equipped with tape measures and digital cameras checking out our suspension designs at shows. Some just do not care at all...

[CCandR]

Who's the D.A. who calls RB to bitch about a product you bought from Fesler? Is the 1-800 number for customer support not working at Fesler?

Bought stuff from both people have no complaints either way...just live in the real world and know bolt on rarely means that. Worked for weeks on shocks to get Yearone "foose" hood to work with RB hinges. Worked for a while to get Fesler trunk hinges to work right.

[DOOM]

WOW ..... A hood hinge... What next, DSE vs Speedtech, BozeForge vs Rushforth, KONI vs QA-1 , we can go on and on. I really did'nt want to reply to this thread because I think its a joke personally.It would be one thing if everyone would stay on topic but this never happens it turns into a friggin love hate fest for one guy or another. So we go from a copied hood hinge to a guy getting tossed out of GOODGUYS fighting with Marquez. So where we going with this? What does this have to do with a copied hood hinge? Man when Feslers name comes up its always a sh^t storm! I never seen a vendor get blasted like this guy. I think this whole thing should be taken to the courts if R/B feels that strong about it NOT HERE! The guys been nothing but good to me and so has a ton of other vendors and I also have had alot of vendors that treat you like there doing you a favor by answering the phone!But again that has nothing to do with this thread....Just my stupid opinion...I'm done:soapbox:

[Bow Tie 67]

Shoot to kill.:rofl:

:rofl:

[wmhjr]

I'll just echo Chads comments. To be honest, this kind of thing should be handled between the respective parties if there is something there. Frankly, IMHO it first tarnishes my perception of the company making the public accusation in this manner befor anything else. I don't know what happened, but I'll be honest, this thread has not helped anyone. It comes across like a lack of professionalism. Just my honest opinion. I could be way odd, but it doesn't matter if I am. This kind of public flogging creates a destructive environment. I will disclose that I'm a very satisfied Fesler customer who bought their product based on design and not price, and that in the only situation that I needed it, Carrie stood FIRMLY behind the product, going above and beyond the expected. If there is truly an infringement issue, deal with it privately and If necessarily legally. Should that happen people will understand, if there are no grounds, it's business. I can't believe it's surprising that some amount of duplication happens.

[70rs]

Band aids to frying pans.....they all get "copied" or "improved"

It happens. Move on.

[96z28ss]

Put yourself in RB situation. You go thru the design, engineering , production, etc. Which takes alot of work, time and money. Then you hopefully are lucky enough for it to be likeable and purchaseable. Then you take the expensive plunge to make some for sell. Now you must make enough to pay for some of the costs to bring it to market.

Then someone copies your piece bypassing the events in the first paragraph. That would make anybody upset, right. No matter what the product is, in any arena.

Competition is one thing, making a better product is great, but copying really goes across the line IMO.


I guess very few people here understand that this happens every day in a lot of everyday products that we buy and don't realize it.

I'm a product design engineer. I know what it feels like to have a product re-designed and produced. This situation as I see it is a bit different.

1. RB was very innovative and came out with a billet hinge to market. First one to do this.

2. Fesler made a billet hinge after RB, but re-engineered, the base, the arms, and the shock position, allows hood to open more. Takes less material to make and easier to mass produce. At this point it's not considered a knock-off in any respect.

3. RB copied the Fesler design and changed their current design. Considered a knock off.

4. Fesler comes out with a similar air-frame design. Considered a knock-off.

5. RB upset and makes it public.

This is a "pot calling the kettle black" situation.

Buy whatever product you want. If Quality is important buy the one that offers that. If price is more important buy that one. Don't buy based on which company you think has better morals and integrity cause both companies have done it to each other.

[XLexusTech]

Put yourself in RB situation. You go thru the design, engineering , production, etc. Which takes alot of work, time and money. Then you hopefully are lucky enough for it to be likeable and purchaseable. Then you take the expensive plunge to make some for sell. Now you must make enough to pay for some of the costs to bring it to market.

Then someone copies your piece bypassing the events in the first paragraph. That would make anybody upset, right. No matter what the product is, in any arena.

Competition is one thing, making a better product is great, but copying really goes across the line IMO.

Yes exactly !

For those who don't see the value of this thread, if the value is just steering potential buyers to the design originators. Hopefully that will help them recoup some of their R&D costs and continue to create new products.
Franky if you thinks its OK to allow every Joe blow in the world to scan in a product and spit out a clone then change a few minor details for "improvements". You don't get the problem and you never will.

I better Triple sow cow off the soap box i got work to do :cheers:

Hopefully when I am done somebody wont steal my hard work and sell it cheaper.

[70rs]

It just keeps going and going and going..........

This has gotten beyond stupid.

Too many opinions, not everyone is going to agree with one side or the other.

The only thing I see this thread doing at this point is making this site look like a b!*¢@ fest and vendor bash.

Buy parts where you want. Its a free market.

Just like the rest of this thread, this post is going to accomplish nothing.

Can the mods lock this thing....please?

[kennyd]

i hear Wal-Mart is going to be selling hood hinges ... All you are going to be out of business !!!

[Flash68]

I guess very few people here understand that this happens every day in a lot of everyday products that we buy and don't realize it.

I'm a product design engineer. I know what it feels like to have a product re-designed and produced. This situation as I see it is a bit different.

1. RB was very innovative and came out with a billet hinge to market. First one to do this.

2. Fesler made a billet hinge after RB, but re-engineered, the base, the arms, and the shock position, allows hood to open more. Takes less material to make and easier to mass produce. At this point it's not considered a knock-off in any respect.

3. RB copied the Fesler design and changed their current design. Considered a knock off.

4. Fesler comes out with a similar air-frame design. Considered a knock-off.

5. RB upset and makes it public.

This is a "pot calling the kettle black" situation.

Buy whatever product you want. If Quality is important buy the one that offers that. If price is more important buy that one. Don't buy based on which company you think has better morals and integrity cause both companies have done it to each other.

I ponied up on my previous Camaro for the RB hinges, and while very nice, was disappointed in the lack of open hood clearance, but I still have an impartial view of this (some posting do not) and it is very clear to me by reading this thread that Bob (96z28ss) is the only one, or one of few, who has done solid direct research and presented his argument clearly. Everyone else is speaking with little to no no authority, expertise, or even basic knowledge of the subject matter and just supporting who they "like". And that clutters this all up.

And this absolutely should be handled behind doors or in the private IMO. Oh well.

[2Bad4Ya]

Interesting...

So not to toss any salt on wounds can anyone tell me what is wrong with eddie motorsport hinges, I mean they are a cpl bills cheaper priced... did they knock off designs? I notice their pistons are mounted differently than the other co's.

People buy knock off's cause they are trying to spread the cash as far as they can so if they can save a cpl dollars on item X then can put that toward item A, etc... the avg. consumer could give a hill a beans about R&D and look at it as the cost of doing business.

You can guaranty more than a few people who are strong RB supporters have looked the Fesler version over and one of the key things they reviewed is the price tag.

Not trying to piss anyone off just putting the avg. joe on a budget opinion out there. I looked at all of the various billet hinges when making my shopping list and did the q&a research with people who have them all and not once was I concerned about who copied who. I was interested in quality of the piece, did it function as desired, and how was the customer service, and cost.

[Bow Tie 67]

It just keeps going and going and going..........

This has gotten beyond stupid.

Too many opinions, not everyone is going to agree with one side or the other.

The only thing I see this thread doing at this point is making this site look like a b!*¢@ fest and vendor bash.

Buy parts where you want. Its a free market.

Just like the rest of this thread, this post is going to accomplish nothing.

Can the mods lock this thing....please?

I agree, I think it should not be locked but completely deleted, then again thats just my opinion and we all know what those are like. :cheers:

[70rs]

I agree, I think it should not be locked but completely deleted, then again thats just my opinion and we all know what those are like. :cheers:

I agree, deleted is better. To have this thread continue does nothing good for this site, the vendors or anyone else.

[ironworks]

I think all the bashing on this site is ruining this place. I understand people get screwed and other people sell junk. But that has happened for years and will always happen. Just like in print you cannot trust what someone says on the internet fully. At the end of the day there is 3 sides to every story and we will never ever know the truth.


As soon as you let one person bash then everyone thinks their story has a right.

[westoz]

Dead and buried maybe??

[garickman]

I agree, deleted is better. To have this thread continue does nothing good for this site, the vendors or anyone else.


I love the way the mods manage this site, but I would have to agree with BowTie67, 70rs and Ironworks. There are 3 sides to every story and this thread would be better off deleted and pretend that it never happened. It is somewhat damaging to all involved.

[ccracin]

I really think this is one of those threads that really is not going to help or solve anything.
Personally, I don't think this thread looks good for either vendor. We have seen these discussions before.

As I said as well! It's one thing when customers are looking for some help, I guess. Vendors should use different channels to resolve issues.

:beathorse (Had to pull it out!)

[Al Moreno]

Shoot to kill.:rofl:

Dang Greg, now that's rough regardless what "Freaking Universe" you live in, LOL. :_paranoid

[camcojb]

for now it's closed and I'll leave it up to the boss whether it's removed.

[96z28ss]

Lock the thread and lets move on.
It shouldn't be deleted cause we come here looking for information. This might be helpfull later during someones searches.