PDA

View Full Version : Brake Line


ccracin
07-01-2011, 11:57 AM
I was having a conversation with another board member the other day about brake line. He currently has 3/16" SS and is looking at potentially making some modifications to his system. The problem is, he is dreading it. He said it is so difficult working with with SS lines that he would probably never use it again. This guy is not afraid of a challenge either. He has been upgrading a fresh car since he finished it. So it got me thinking. I was planning on doing our truck in stainless. I have the Rigid flare tool for 37 deg. assorted benders etc. But since our conversation, I have been conflicted! :lol: Doing some surfing, I came across copper nickel alloy brake line. Here is an example.

http://store.fedhillusa.com/316475mmtubingandnuts.aspx

The pressure rating looks adequate and it seems to have good credentials. However marketing is not always spot on. So this is my question, has anyone used this stuff and what do you think? One down side is it is shipped coiled. I guess a tubing straightener would be in order. Anyway, I would appreciate any experience or comment on the subject.

Later,

Apogee
07-01-2011, 02:21 PM
It's good stuff...the Cu/Ni tubing has enough history and people using it that I wouldn't hesitate to run it. In fact, I'm using it on a car right now and while it's not running yet, it does indeed bend and flare very well. If you want to polish it, you can do that too if you need the bling factor.

Tobin
KORE3

ccracin
07-01-2011, 02:55 PM
It's good stuff...the Cu/Ni tubing has enough history and people using it that I wouldn't hesitate to run it. In fact, I'm using it on a car right now and while it's not running yet, it does indeed bend and flare very well. If you want to polish it, you can do that too if you need the bling factor.

Tobin
KORE3

Thanks Tobin. Your opinion means a lot. I'm not concerned about bling, just upkeep. I don't want to deal with carbon and potential rust issues. That was the reason for stainless. I prefer a matte finish anyway. just need to check into or build a tube straightener. Do you know of a supplier that has it in straight lengths? Thanks again. :thumbsup:

GregWeld
07-01-2011, 11:23 PM
Chad --

You're over thinking it... SS ain't hard... You have to buy the RIGHT tubing to start with - many people don't... and then they can't flare it without cracking it etc. So get your SS from a supplier that knows what they're supplying and you won't have any issues.

My 37* flare tool is the "more expensive" tapered roller bearing version -- it works better on SS...

You have to not work harden the ends of the tube when you cut it. That's the other thing people do wrong... DO NOT use a tubing cutter. I use a body saw and just go thru a few blades... you can also use a cut off wheel... I like the LOW HEAT of the body saw... plus it's less messy. I run it over to the disc grinder and square it off... then I DEBURR the inside and outside...

GregWeld
07-01-2011, 11:33 PM
I'd add to this -- call Mark at Bent.... and get bent. :rofl:

He'll sell you the RIGHT tubing and I'm sure would also be able to help you
with the proper procedure.

DRJDVM's '69
07-02-2011, 12:14 AM
Talk to Mark at Bent Fab....he will hook you up....

I'm doing stainless...... I hope its not as hard as some people say....we'll see....

From everything I've read, its all in the prep....good cut, debur etc and the flare is easy....dont prep right and its a PITA

wmhjr
07-02-2011, 07:25 AM
Chad --

You're over thinking it... SS ain't hard... You have to buy the RIGHT tubing to start with - many people don't... and then they can't flare it without cracking it etc. So get your SS from a supplier that knows what they're supplying and you won't have any issues.

My 37* flare tool is the "more expensive" tapered roller bearing version -- it works better on SS...

You have to not work harden the ends of the tube when you cut it. That's the other thing people do wrong... DO NOT use a tubing cutter. I use a body saw and just go thru a few blades... you can also use a cut off wheel... I like the LOW HEAT of the body saw... plus it's less messy. I run it over to the disc grinder and square it off... then I DEBURR the inside and outside...

OK, so to clear up the mystery, I'm the other board member who talked to Chad. Let me clear up the misconceptions as well. Here are at least my facts.

1) I used the proper line. I specifically had line shipped from a specific vendor to insure that I was getting the correct thin wall, seamless, annealed tubing. A vendor that top builders use. A vendor more than a thousand miles from me. Because I wanted to insure I was doing everything right, knowing from the start that Stainless is a bit more difficult.

2) My flare tool is the "most expensive" hydraulic type flare tool, and I have the ability to do flares on pretty much any size, and on both standard and -AN type flares. Single and double. Again - an attempt to insure that I was doing everything right.

3) I am very careful to not work harden the tubing when cutting. I do not use a tubing cutter. Ever.

4) I carefully and meticulously debur the inside of the tubing.

5) I have an Imperial Bender for my stainless line.

With all of this said, I did not make the argument to Chad that stainless is impossible. ALL of my tubing (fuel, brakes, power steering, hydraulic clutch) is stainless. What I said is that it simply isn't worth the hassle. It's frankly a poor material having poor working qualities that the pro IMHO just doesn't match the con. It's expensive, difficult, frustrating, and more time consuming. And the up side? It looks nice.

Here's the truth about stainless. Even with all of what I've written, the FACT is that it's more difficult to work with. Larger line segments of 3/16" aren't terrible, but even bending is more difficult because it's stiffer and because of the work hardening. I find that you need to use more force in tightening down brake fittings because the harder stainless doesn't like to seal until it's tighter. While I do not now and have never had line leaks, that's also because those fittings are DAMN tight. And because I probably took 5 times longer on every single flare with the stainless than I normally do with other materials. Not including the time spent ordering and waiting for shipment of more expensive materials.

OTOH, I've talked to Mark at Bentfab, and plan to have him make a couple pieces for me that are a little unique. I'm a big believer in it for many things, and if you've got the right experience and equipment, it's the right solution. I've seen pics of his work and it looks excellent - and he was great to talk to on the phone. But for what Chad is doing (and what I did) the distance between here and Mark makes it impossible for him to do an overall brake system - especially in Chads case where the entire vehicle is custom fabrication.

Now add to this that our vehicles (Chads and mine) will certainly get driven, but not in snow or salt. I wipe my lines and everything down religiously anyway. How in the world would my lines corrode based on the use and maintenance they get? No way.

So, why would I use Stainless? Because I overengineered my build. Again. After having done it, I find no earthly reason for having done it. I will not use stainless again. I'm helping my dad with a '54 Chevy truck. It will not have stainless brake lines. I'm helping my son with a '72 Vette. It will not have stainless brake lines. To ME it's just not worth the cost and the effort. I may need to add a 2lb residual valve in the GTO. I am dreading that because I'm not sure I can get the existing line out without lifting the motor (clearance and the retaining clips to the crossmember). I have no margin for error. Just bending the lines on the car will be a very big challenge in my expectations.

GregWeld
07-02-2011, 08:25 AM
OK, so to clear up the mystery, I'm the other board member who talked to Chad. Let me clear up the misconceptions as well. Here are at least my facts.

1) I used the proper line. I specifically had line shipped from a specific vendor to insure that I was getting the correct thin wall, seamless, annealed tubing. A vendor that top builders use. A vendor more than a thousand miles from me. Because I wanted to insure I was doing everything right, knowing from the start that Stainless is a bit more difficult.

2) My flare tool is the "most expensive" hydraulic type flare tool, and I have the ability to do flares on pretty much any size, and on both standard and -AN type flares. Single and double. Again - an attempt to insure that I was doing everything right.

3) I am very careful to not work harden the tubing when cutting. I do not use a tubing cutter. Ever.

4) I carefully and meticulously debur the inside of the tubing.

5) I have an Imperial Bender for my stainless line.

With all of this said, I did not make the argument to Chad that stainless is impossible. ALL of my tubing (fuel, brakes, power steering, hydraulic clutch) is stainless. What I said is that it simply isn't worth the hassle. It's frankly a poor material having poor working qualities that the pro IMHO just doesn't match the con. It's expensive, difficult, frustrating, and more time consuming. And the up side? It looks nice.

Here's the truth about stainless. Even with all of what I've written, the FACT is that it's more difficult to work with. Larger line segments of 3/16" aren't terrible, but even bending is more difficult because it's stiffer and because of the work hardening. I find that you need to use more force in tightening down brake fittings because the harder stainless doesn't like to seal until it's tighter. While I do not now and have never had line leaks, that's also because those fittings are DAMN tight. And because I probably took 5 times longer on every single flare with the stainless than I normally do with other materials. Not including the time spent ordering and waiting for shipment of more expensive materials.

OTOH, I've talked to Mark at Bentfab, and plan to have him make a couple pieces for me that are a little unique. I'm a big believer in it for many things, and if you've got the right experience and equipment, it's the right solution. I've seen pics of his work and it looks excellent - and he was great to talk to on the phone. But for what Chad is doing (and what I did) the distance between here and Mark makes it impossible for him to do an overall brake system - especially in Chads case where the entire vehicle is custom fabrication.

Now add to this that our vehicles (Chads and mine) will certainly get driven, but not in snow or salt. I wipe my lines and everything down religiously anyway. How in the world would my lines corrode based on the use and maintenance they get? No way.

So, why would I use Stainless? Because I overengineered my build. Again. After having done it, I find no earthly reason for having done it. I will not use stainless again. I'm helping my dad with a '54 Chevy truck. It will not have stainless brake lines. I'm helping my son with a '72 Vette. It will not have stainless brake lines. To ME it's just not worth the cost and the effort. I may need to add a 2lb residual valve in the GTO. I am dreading that because I'm not sure I can get the existing line out without lifting the motor (clearance and the retaining clips to the crossmember). I have no margin for error. Just bending the lines on the car will be a very big challenge in my expectations.



Ya big sissy!
:rofl:

GregWeld
07-02-2011, 08:28 AM
PS: I have the hydraulic MasterCool tool --- with every f'n flare available.... I don't like it on SS. I use the roller bearing flare tool.

wmhjr
07-02-2011, 01:26 PM
Ya big sissy!
:rofl:

I know - I'm just that way :)

EBMC
07-02-2011, 11:29 PM
We've been using the copper nickel alloy and love it. Polishes very easily if desired, leave as is or you can scotchbrite it ( our preference) we buy it by 100 foot rolls and use a tubing straightener.