Choosing an aftermarket subframe

[Astontibs]

I just introduced myself over on the introductions forum, but now I want to get to business. In searching for an aftermarket subframe for my 68 Camaro, I came across your forum and read several of the threads discussing aftermarket subframes. I have researched at least six different manufacturers, and I think I have it narrowed down to two in my price range.

The features I am looking for are;
Power rack and pinion steering (Preferably front steer to help with future LS oil pan fitment.
Modern suspension geometry (negative camber gain)
13" brakes
Swaybar
LS engine compatibility (Oil pan fitment and front accesory drive compatibility)
Prefer slightly narrower track and stock height (My current 17X8 wheels with 225-50-17 tires hit on the outer edge on larger bumps), I can go with wheels with more back space if this is not psossible.
Weight reduction would be a plus.
Reuse of TKO600 trans mount and bolt in subframe connectors would be a plus.

Chris Alston, Speedtech and Jim Meyer all looked pretty good, but they are currently out of my price range. (Note: If I determine that the either of the two I am considering will not meet my needs, I may wait until I can afford these pricier ones.) Fatman Fabrications is in my price range, but they use the Mustang II suspension which is based on 70's technology. The two I am looking at are Martz and Heidts Pro G. From looking at other threads, Martz seems to have an issue with flex, but that may be before they added the hoop bars that go to the firewall. Their suspension geometry appears to give me the negative camber gain I am looking for and I can maintain my stock height. Heidt's Pro G looks good, they narrow the track width 1/2 per side but are only avaiable with 2" drop spindles which means I may have to change wheels.

So, has anyone used the Martz subframe with the hoop bars and had flex issues? Has anyone used the Heidt's Pro G? How do you like either of these.
If you don't like either, what makes the other ones worth more money?

I am really hoping this group can help me make a decision.

Alan Tibbetts

[JKnight]

First off, what's your intended usage of the car? Track, street, fairground cruiser? This will help determine if the lower-end units will work for you.

Is the Speedtech unit significantly more costly than the Heidts?

If you're doing any significant performance driving, I would be doing everything I could up to and including reprioritizing my budget to make the Speedtech subframe a possibility.

I know Heidts has come a long way with some of their products, but using drop spindles is a non-starter for me.

[Ron in SoCal]

Hey Allen - Welcome to Lat G! I think you'll get a lot of responses from Vendors and members alike as this is a hot topic and opinons abound! The typical top tier (and high $s) I have seen since I joined are DSE, AME. Jakes and Speedtech. All make a very good product. There others you already mentioned I cannot comment on as I have not researched them, but I know Soctt's Hot Rods makes a similar one in that Heidts/Martz category - of course those vendors will tell you what makes their's better/different form the rest. One option I think you should look into for camber gain/wider wheels/bigger brakes would be to mod your existing sub w an upgrade from DSE, Speedtech or Global West including control arms, coil over conversions, etc. You can possibly do a R&P conversion as well depending on the vendor you choose.

There are many more options and my apologies to anyone left off the list. Just trying to get the discussion started...:thumbsup:

[randy]

sent you a pM

[itsals1]

Check out Scott Mock's subs, they are very nice and has great a price.

Travis

[Astontibs]

Thanks for the responses so far guys. As far as the use of the car, it is street driven aggressively, taken to car shows and occasionally drag raced for fun. I do not care about optimizing for the drags. I like to drive aggressively on winding roads and highway offramps. I do not intend to take the car on a road course.
Speedtech is an impressive unit, but it is $3K more than the Martz unit.
I hadn't researched Scott Mock, DSE (Detroit Speed?), AME (Art Morrison?), or Jakes and will check them out.
I want to check out the guy with the Martz unit over on Pro Touring.
Please keep the comments coming.

[Vegas69]

I think you should consider the TCI subframe. Sal and the boys over there have proven time and time again that their stuff works and it's very reasonably priced. Good group of guys too.....

[Astontibs]

I'll check out TCI also.
Anybody with the Martz or Heidts want to weigh in?

[garymac69]

IMHO....if you are not going to do SERIOUS road racing or autocross then the stock subframe works great. Check out the performance they obtained on this '67 Camaro with primarily bolt-on parts from Ridetech:
http://48hourcamaro.com/

[Blake Foster]

[QUOTE=Astontibs;354322]Thanks for the responses so far guys. As far as the use of the car, it is street driven aggressively, taken to car shows and occasionally drag raced for fun. I do not care about optimizing for the drags. I like to drive aggressively on winding roads and highway offramps. I do not intend to take the car on a road course.
Speedtech is an impressive unit, but it is $3K more than the Martz unit.

I just want to CALRIFY that the Martz is only 1284.00 less than the Speedtech unit when all the options are included that make them comparible component wise. not 3000.00 :thumbsup:

[slow4dr]

I'll check out TCI also.


As of today there isn't a stock height option but it will be available very soon.

-J

[Astontibs]

[QUOTE=Astontibs;354322]Thanks for the responses so far guys. As far as the use of the car, it is street driven aggressively, taken to car shows and occasionally drag raced for fun. I do not care about optimizing for the drags. I like to drive aggressively on winding roads and highway offramps. I do not intend to take the car on a road course.
Speedtech is an impressive unit, but it is $3K more than the Martz unit.

I just want to CALRIFY that the Martz is only 1284.00 less than the Speedtech unit when all the options are included that make them comparible component wise. not 3000.00 :thumbsup:

Blake I'd love to talk to you because I developed a spreadsheet where I am comparing them and the Speedtech came out to $7967 and the Martz came out to $4965. On the Speedtech this includes the ATS spindle and 13" brake package, universal steering connection kit and $200 crating fee. Oh and I didn't mention the $500 shipping which would make it $8467 because I can pick the Martz unit up at Carlisle, PA in the fall. I wish the difference was only $1300, because I would go with the Speedtech.

[Blake Foster]

feel free to call me i will do up an estimate for you and compare .

if you are adding the AFX spindle you are not making a fair comparison. as the geometry will be FAR better and from the intended use you have stated are not required.

have you seen this

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results_w/mode=specials/must_login.htm

[Roadrage David]

Witch one of all these afthermarket subframes is the lightest??.
becase with all the BS aside when you get one for roadracing then thats the ""only"" thing more intresting then al that other stuff that is supost to make them beter at handling then a stock factory subframe.

There are so manny afther marked suspention goodies availeble that you actualy can ""save"" your money getting a afthermarket subframe and stick it in something els...
I have seen to many stock equipt subframe road racers compeat against purpose build full tube frame cars and win!!..
chek this guy out http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663834
then these videos http://youtu.be/pv4qouMwhj8
http://youtu.be/MJ9fGZOcj_A
He overtakes DTM BMW. BMW M1. Kremer 935 K3 1000 hp lemanse winning porshe . Dytona Cobra . most of the cars in his class run with apr 650 to 1000 hp. his set up is FAR from perfect with a 4 speed manual and a 3.08 rear ratio STOCK spindles. he leaves at least 2 sec a lap at the track.
Nevertheless UNLESS you are planning to drive more radical then him then you dont need a afthermarked subframe unless you whant bragging rights...

[kovert]

Witch one of all these afthermarket subframes is the lightest??.
becase with all the BS aside when you get one for roadracing then thats the ""only"" thing more intresting then al that other stuff that is supost to make them beter at handling then a stock factory subframe.

There are so manny afther marked suspention goodies availeble that you actualy can ""save"" your money getting a afthermarket subframe and stick it in something els...
I have seen to many stock equipt subframe road racers compeat against purpose build full tube frame cars and win!!..
chek this guy out http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663834
then these videos http://youtu.be/pv4qouMwhj8
http://youtu.be/MJ9fGZOcj_A
He overtakes DTM BMW. BMW M1. Kremer 935 K3 1000 hp lemanse winning porshe . Dytona Cobra . most of the cars in his class run with apr 650 to 1000 hp. his set up is FAR from perfect with a 4 speed manual and a 3.08 rear ratio STOCK spindles. he leaves at least 2 sec a lap at the track.
Nevertheless UNLESS you are planning to drive more radical then him then you dont need a afthermarked subframe unless you whant bragging rights...

so what a arms spindles etc do u reccomend

[Roadrage David]

LOL bij the way that car hase ""stock"" lower A arms and SPC upper arms,
and custom euro made coil over shocks with 1000 lbs springs in front!!. and Wilwood brakes

I myself have ATS AFX tall spindels and Speed tech lower A arms and SPC racing upper A arms .Chicane kit(witch we disided not to use) and Afco Elite coil over shocks in the front.. and Brake Man brakes (best Brakes around if you ask me) Lee close ratio stearing box(same as the transam)
Im building a pontiac powerd first gen firebird to compeat against that pontiac powerd transam in the you tube video,s. ...
Point im trying to make is that you can do without a afthermarked subframe unless you whant to go a.al on weight and looks...
It wil NOT give you a advantage over the stock subframe.................have inclosed some pictures of that euro race league

[Roadrage David]

here are some more pictures. This was at the Red Bull ring in Austria last weekend we where at the Hockenheim ring Germany. Video,s where made bij our groop (picture above)

[TheJDMan]

I spent a good deal of time researching the numerous front suspension options available. I looked at installing components on my stock subframe and complete subframes. When all was said and done, adding components saved a little money but required a lot of time to install. I ended up installing the DSE subframe and I have not regretted the choice. I too am not big into track days or auto-X.

[Roadrage David]

Im not sure what resirtch you have done. But I dont call 2200(speed tech bare subframe) usd little money!!. for the averitch worker today!!. and im sure they are""not"" the most exspensife subframe out there!!!!!!!.
so 2200 upto 3000+ usd just for looks and a couple of lbs lighter is NOT the most bang for your buck.

let me see for 2200/3000 usd i can get fibre glass doors, fenders, inner, fenders ,frond bumper, rear bumper, Dek lid , Hood.
and with a little bit of luck blemised persy,s speed glass al round:wow: .

now thats saving a lot of weight and getting bang for your $$, if you are building a road racer ore auto cross car.
the rest of the money witch you would spend on a aftermarket subframe,s suspention parts that come with a ""compleat"" subframe, you just spend on practiculy the same suspention parts!!.
that come with that subframe.
and put those on the origenal frame. Now i have a MUTCH lighter car with top notch suspention parts . and because of that a better handling faster car. Boom Done Finished.........

[skatinjay27]

^^^^^^^chip.chip.chip....

[Astontibs]

Roadrage, I hear you , but we are talking about a 43 year old subframe here that has been through millions of load cycles. My stock sub is not bent (as far as I know), but it must be fatigued by now. In addition, since I am looking at an LS swap in the future, the move to front steer will simplify my oil pan choices. In addition, I will get some money back by selling my stock subframe with poly bushings, disc brakes and 1" swaybar.
I stand with TheJDMan that a new subframe is the way to go.
Now with that said, I had a nice conversation with Killer69 about the Speedtech unit and it is true that their frame appears technically superior to the Martz and Heidts that I was looking at. I also concur that outfitting the Speedtech similar to the Martz makes the price difference much less. This is all making this choice harder and harder.
I have to go do some research on DSE, AME, Jakes and TCI now.
Please keep the information coming.

[Roadrage David]

Roadrage, I hear you , but we are talking about a 43 year old subframe here that has been through millions of load cycles. My stock sub is not bent (as far as I know), but it must be fatigued by now. In addition, since I am looking at an LS swap in the future, the move to front steer will simplify my oil pan choices. In addition, I will get some money back by selling my stock subframe with poly bushings, disc brakes and 1" swaybar.
.

so is the subframe i am useing and of the transam above!!. that thussend meen anything. front stearing is ez. but not realy nesersary. having said all that. its your money and your car....:thumbsup:

[vinz68]

I bought Jake's test car last year and couln't be happier!! It has his first subframe in it. We did add his DOM C6 upper and lower control arm's and a splined sway bar. IMO his stuff works great!! I haven't had the opportunity to drive car's with the the other's you are looking into so I can't compare. All I can say is that I am very happy with what I have and the accomplishments I'v made with car. I have recently won the RTTS event and qualified for the Optima event, this past weekend placed 3rd at the Motorstate Challange.What ever you choose is your choice. Just thought I'd add my.02

[carbuff]

Unfortunately I can only look at my JRS (Jake's) subframe right now, but from all of my conversations with him as well as looking at the workmanship of the items I purchased, I can't wait to drive this thing! Jake was able to answer all of my technical questions in great detail and made me very comfortable with his pieces.

I think it's hard to go wrong with most any of these items, you really just need to decide what your price point is going to be and go from there.

Good luck!

[Astontibs]

I looked at all the rest, and they are all more expensive than the two I am considering, but I do like the ones based on Corvette suspension. Aaaarrrghhh. I wish I had more money. I may have to save one more year and do this right.
One thing about the Martz that is starting to bother me is that it looks like a Mustang II derived system. They are adamant that it is not, that it is their own design, but damn if it doesn't look similar.

[itsals1]

Like I said give Scott Mock a call he has a couple of differnt frames and his son Kevin is doing very well with his 69' camaro on the auto X. I think Scott has a group buy going on.

Travis

[Astontibs]

Got in touch with Scott Mock. He has a nice piece also and his price is right in line with the other upper tier brands. I almost wish there weren't this many choices. There is lcoal guy who has the Martz installed. I am going to go take a look at his and decide whether I will take the chance with that one or consider one of the upper tier ones. I appreciate all the input and help you guys have given me. Except for the fact that you made it harder to decide.:)

[Ron in SoCal]

Aston - my .02. If it comes down to Scott Mock or Martz, buy from Scott. He uses C6 components so you get good geometry and parts a plenty to bolt on. It's also track tested. Just MHO, but it looks like a dup of an Art Morrision for a lot less cabbbage...

[HRD]

FWIW I have a 67 Camaro with a Martz subframe and am very pleased with the way it performs. You can get it with the 13" rotors and 6 piston calipers as an option.

[Astontibs]

I went to Super Chevy at Maple Grove this weekend and I saw Chris Alston's Chassisworks subframe in person. That is one quality piece. The workmanship is superb and the size of the framerails is impressive. I also saw a Camaro with the Heidt's subframe and it looked weak in comparison. I am almost convinced now to wait until I have the money to buy one of the better ones. I still have to look at the Camaro that is local to me with the Martz installed but at this point I am pretty sure I am not going to go that way.

[TBART70]

CARBUFF had a Martz in his last car, he didn't buy another one.

[Heidts#14]

I hope you dont rule us out because of looks. If you will be going to Joliet Goodguys, Indianaplolis Goodguys, Fortworth Goodguys, or Charlotte Goodguys, stop by our booth and we will see if you can sit shot gun for one of the laps on the auto-cross. We will also be vending the events so you can see the subframe on display. :thumbsup:

[Astontibs]

Heidt's #14, has Heidt's changed their frame cross section size anywhere during the production run? The car I looked at seemed to have a smaller cross section than the Heidt's subframes I see advertised today.

[Astontibs]

Long time since I have posted.I decided to go with a subframe that uses the Vette C6 components. As far as i know this locks me into either Art Morrison or Detroit Speed. I appreciate any input people have with these subs or if they know of other subs that use the C5/C6 brakes (since I already bought them).
Again, I am going with 4th gen F-body LS1 with a T56. I want to be able to use the stock oil pan if I can with a vintage air setup using the Kwik bracket.

I am looking for header fitment also. The DSE headers look great but are big money and I've heard of better header fitment with the AME sub.

I am interested in any and all opinions

[dhutton]

I had an AME subframe and ran the VA compressor on the lower passenger side using a VA bracket and the factory F body accessory drive. Stock F body pan too. Some pics etc of my installation are here:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/765005-lsi-69-camaro-c-mounting-problems-3.html

Don

[3_z28camaro]

I have an AME subframe, very nice piece and I do not recall any fitment issues with their subframe and AME headers. I do have a complaint which many others have encounted is the AME LS engine mount requires some modification to fit. It is a bit of a hassle considering the price of everything.

[FETorino]

Long time since I have posted.I decided to go with a subframe that uses the Vette C6 components. As far as i know this locks me into either Art Morrison or Detroit Speed. I appreciate any input people have with these subs or if they know of other subs that use the C5/C6 brakes (since I already bought them).
Again, I am going with 4th gen F-body LS1 with a T56. I want to be able to use the stock oil pan if I can with a vintage air setup using the Kwik bracket.

I am looking for header fitment also. The DSE headers look great but are big money and I've heard of better header fitment with the AME sub.

I am interested in any and all opinions

Why are you locked into those two if you want C6 stuff?

Jakes, Scott Mock and RS all use C6 spindles and Hubs. I believe Speedtech spindles will accept the C6 brakes.

I have an RS chassis under my car and the build quality is second to none. With a RS Camaro subframe you can run a 10 wide front wheel easy, it is set up for and LS, the suspension geometry would accommodate your current plans and provide for a competent car if you ever decide to go out on a track or run autox.

You could drive to their shop in a day to pick it up and that alone would be worth the trip. The shop itself is a destination if you are into cars and fabrication.:wow:

If it sounds like I am trying to sell you on RS, I am.:thumbsup: Not because I get anything out of it. Because as a customer I know they treated me very well and continue to support their product when I e-mail or call.

Phil, Jeremy and their dad are all good people and from my experience the type of people you want to do business with. No promises made that weren't kept. No BS just straight communication and follow through.

I'm not discounting anyone else's stuff all of the vendors seem to be making some quality products. Although I haven't dealt with Blake at Speedtech I have visited his shop and it is also clean, organized and apparently well run with some quality looking products being produced. I have one friend who took a botched project from another shop there and the Blake's crew did a great job fixing the mess within a promised window.

That's my personal experience for what it's worth.
:cheers:

http://roadstershop.com/suspension/1967-69-camaro/

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/1st-Gen-Camaro-FAST-TRACK-subframe-1024x682_zpsaf931ad2.jpg (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/superjinca/media/1st-Gen-Camaro-FAST-TRACK-subframe-1024x682_zpsaf931ad2.jpg.html)

[Blake Foster]

Why are you locked into those two if you want C6 stuff?

Jakes, Scott Mock and RS all use C6 spindles and Hubs. I believe Speedtech spindles will accept the C6 brakes.

I have an RS chassis under my car and the build quality is second to none. With a RS Camaro subframe you can run a 10 wide front wheel easy, it is set up for and LS, the suspension geometry would accommodate your current plans and provide for a competent car if you ever decide to go out on a track or run autox.

You could drive to their shop in a day to pick it up and that alone would be worth the trip. The shop itself is a destination if you are into cars and fabrication.:wow:

If it sounds like I am trying to sell you on RS, I am.:thumbsup: Not because I get anything out of it. Because as a customer I know they treated me very well and continue to support their product when I e-mail or call.

Phil, Jeremy and their dad are all good people and from my experience the type of people you want to do business with. No promises made that weren't kept. No BS just straight communication and follow through.

I'm not discounting anyone else's stuff all of the vendors seem to be making some quality products. Although I haven't dealt with Blake at Speedtech I have visited his shop and it is also clean, organized and apparently well run with some quality looking products being produced. I have one friend who took a botched project from another shop there and the Blake's crew did a great job fixing the mess within a promised window.

That's my personal experience for what it's worth.
:cheers:


Thanks for the Kudos Rob.

[Astontibs]

It has been a long time since I posted again because I have been concentrating my efforts on the LS1Tech site. For a full review of the build go to http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1621825-ls1-t56-into-68-camaro.html/ In summary I went with the Art Morrison subframe and used their headers as well. I also ran into interference with the motor mounts, but it was relatively easy to resolve by grinding on the mount. FOr the headers, I had to grind away some material from the passenger side lower control arm support to get adequate clearance but there seems to be plenty of meat there so I wasn't worried about affecting structural integrity. The last modification I had to make was with the mounts for the sway bar bushings. AME gives you collars to keep the sway bar from sliding side to side and the collars would not fit without grinding away some of the mounting surface. Again this was extra material anyway and won't affect structural integrity.
I was worried that the track width would be wider than stock, since I used to have a front tire clearance problem but it is actually slightly narrower and I now have no tire rub issues. The turning radius sucks but that is because it is for wider tires. I may remove the stops to get my turning radius back.
I like the way the car sits now, it is not too low which is something I was worried about.
I haven't really had a chance to push the car yet, so I will see how much better it handles.

[Astontibs]

A few pictures of the sub during mock up and final assembly

[Ron in SoCal]

Check to see if you have steering stops under the rack boots. Simple 5 minute removal and you gain 5* per shim removed.

As often said here: "ask me how I know."

[Astontibs]

Ron, I called AME and they told me the same. I was going to do it, but wasn't sure how to clip the metal retaining rings without damaging the boot. How did you do it?

[Ron in SoCal]

I cut em off with snips and replaced them with zip ties. Works perfect :thumbsup:

[Astontibs]

Thanks, maybe that will give me the motivation to just do it.