Camber: does this look right? (track video inside)

[Flash68]

...videos from Willow Springs track day 2 weeks ago.

kep points:

-2.2* camber -- alignment done right before track day
Global West control arms
ATS AFX spindles

need further info?

We were surprised to not see more dynamic camber in this video. Any ideas?

Thanks

M8cyh2mK3tE

[chicane]

Kinda hard to actually tell... from the vantage of the camera.

Just sitting still from that vantage... doesnt even show the static that you have dialed into it. But in motion... it does look as if the tire had enough camber in it to address body roll and the suspension compression.

You dont have any tire temps do ya ?

[Track Junky]

Hard to tell, it looked square in the well..............the best way to measure would be with tire temps across the face of the tire......and on that note the worst way to find out is when your tire is bald on one side, lol.

[Flash68]

Yes tire temps were recorded throughout the day but that folder is in the car and I am not with said car. Will have them later tonight and will report back.

Thanks guys.

[Flash68]

Ok got temps for you guys. CCW track.

1st session -- warmup

Left Front: Outside to Inside = 88* to 89*
Right Front: Outside to Inside = 100* to 100*

Left Rear: Outside to Inside = 87* to 89*
Right Rear: Outside to Inside = 114* to 110* to *103


2nd session -- litte faster

Left Front: Outside to Center to Inside = 100* to 107* to 108*
Right Front: Outside to Center to Inside = 117* to 116* to 113*

Left Rear: Outside to Inside = 105* to 109*
Right Rear: Outside to Inside = 108* to 106*

3rd or 4th session -- full boogie

Left Front: Outside to Inside = 100* to 106*
Right Front: Outside to Inside = 132* to 127*

Left Rear: Outside to Inside = 106* to 106*
Right Rear: Outside to Inside = 122* to 117*

Over the sessions we also gradually brought tire pressures down from 35 to 32 psi cold, and they were gaining about 5 psi per session.


Comments?

[Track Junky]

Hmmm.......first thing first, are you experiencing any under steer? If not, a little more neg. camber might help. When I ran 255/40's up front I ran -2.5 camber. Where are you at now?

[Flash68]

Hmmm.......first thing first, are you experiencing any under steer? If not, a little more neg. camber might help. When I ran 255/40's up front I ran -2.5 camber. Where are you at now?

Yes there is some. And if you don't believe me, Mary P said after driving it at Marina "this thing pushes like a dump truck!" :rofl:

Camber is now at -2.2*. We aligned it a few days before the track day.

[Vegas69]

I thought that was before the sway bar..

[Flash68]

I thought that was before the sway bar..

Nope. I've had the sway bar for every autoX and road course I've done.

I never thought the understeer was as bad as Mary thought, but what do I know? I have no baseline.

[Track Junky]

315's in the rear with 245's up front doesn't help but I know 275's in the rear are not an option for you.

What front and rear spring rates are you running? Adjustable shocks?

[chicane]

Dave - Length of time before temps were taken ??... in the future, try and get inner, center and outer temps... as it will associate to any pressure issues that may be present or help explain possible cupping issues.

The second, third or fourth run temps do show an alignment issue... and my intripretation is that you need to get the chassis scaled to verify my input. I believe that you need to read your corner weights, with you in the car, just after you do the alignment with you in the car. Basically, set the car up as you would be on the track... do an alignment and then scale it... with you and the amount of fuel (perferrably totally full or totally empty.)

Another question... which direction were you running the track and which course was set up for that day ?

The only thing that stands out to me... is the RR temps. The chassis either needs more cross weight to distribute the front loads better and to take some load off of the right rear. Its either that... or a possible bend housing or a loose differential... ie, worn clutch packs or not enough preload shim to the clutch pack.

If I could see scale numbers, as it is... before any change, that would help.

But seriously, nothing to be really alarmed with. They -look- proper... and it just needs a little nudge in adjustment.

[Flash68]

315's in the rear with 245's up front doesn't help but I know 275's in the rear are not an option for you.

What front and rear spring rates are you running? Adjustable shocks?

255 front and 315 rear for me. Not a bad stagger.

Front is single adj Varishocks and 650# and rear is the DSE 3" drop leafs, I think 175# with Varishocks? Running both at #8 setting currently.

[Flash68]

Dave - Length of time before temps were taken ??... in the future, try and get inner, center and outer temps... as it will associate to any pressure issues that may be present or help explain possible cupping issues.

The second, third or fourth run temps do show an alignment issue... and my intripretation is that you need to get the chassis scaled to verify my input. I believe that you need to read your corner weights, with you in the car, just after you do the alignment with you in the car. Basically, set the car up as you would be on the track... do an alignment and then scale it... with you and the amount of fuel (perferrably totally full or totally empty.)

Another question... which direction were you running the track and which course was set up for that day ?

The only thing that stands out to me... is the RR temps. The chassis either needs more cross weight to distribute the front loads better and to take some load off of the right rear. Its either that... or a possible bend housing or a loose differential... ie, worn clutch packs or not enough preload shim to the clutch pack.

If I could see scale numbers, as it is... before any change, that would help.

But seriously, nothing to be really alarmed with. They -look- proper... and it just needs a little nudge in adjustment.

CCW that day.

I plan to weigh the car soon (been on the list!) and will do it with me in it.

Thanks Tom.

[Track Junky]

255 front and 315 rear for me. Not a bad stagger.

Front is single adj Varishocks and 650# and rear is the DSE 3" drop leafs, I think 175# with Varishocks? Running both at #8 setting currently.

Chicane makes some really good points. Corner weighing the car is the best starting point but access to scales could be challenging.

With stock subframe 650# spring is not bad though I prefer 700#. Stock subframes have alot of flex and actually act as part of the suspension.

Single adjustable shocks are usually set up to adjust for rebound. If you max your shock adjustment and the front of the car starts to bounce, thats when you know to back off the adjustment. I haven't run across a track yet that has induced enough grip to make my car bounce yet. Actually I correct myself. The asphalt at the 341 Challenge had so much grip I had to back off 6 clicks.

What I'm thinking is that you are transfering to much weight to the front of the car. If you lower the shock rate in the rear, when you get on the throttle coming out of a corner you will shift more weight to the rear but it is also possible that you may get to much traction in the rear from doing this and it might overwhelm the smaller front tires but at least its something to try.

I know 275's in the rear aren't an option for you so my next suggestion would be a larger rear bar. What the larger rear bar will do is keep the rear planted in the corners. For example, if you are taking a left hand corner the rear bar will plant the left side rear tire and keep from shifting weight to the front right tire.

[Vegas69]

One thing you need to remember is he's on street tires.

[Track Junky]

One thing you need to remember is he's on street tires.

True that, but I'm starting to come to my own conclusions about the NT05's. I've joined quite a few discussions about their grip and I'm not sure the 200 tread wear is accurate. Nitto tires are made by Toyo which leads me to believe that the compounds aren't much different then the R888's.

Why is it the R888's seem to last about as long as the NT05's?

Everybody I've discussed these tires with tells me they only last about around 10,000 miles when auto crossing and street driving is combined.

[Flash68]

You really think the NT05s are in the same league as R888s? I have yet to hear or read of that. Interesting...

I have 2500 miles on mine (RTTC, 2 autoX days, and the Willow Springs day) and there is no way they are lasting 10k miles.

[Track Junky]

You really think the NT05s are in the same league as R888s? I have yet to hear or read of that. Interesting...

I have 2500 miles on mine (RTTC, 2 autoX days, and the Willow Springs day) and there is no way they are lasting 10k miles.

Not exactly the same league but maybe not to far off. Think about it......I've read 8-10K on the NT05's and it sounds like your not even going to make it to 8K. I've also read that they heat up quick and get greasy near the end of the runs. Does that sound familiar to you? Are they stickier at the beginning of your runs? If so, they definitely have the characteristics of a soft compound tire.

Kyle Newman recently ran about 1.5 sec's faster than me at Buttonwillow 13 CW on NT05's. I was having issues with tire rub and heating up the rear tires prematurely but still, 2:08's is pretty impressive on a 200 treadwear tire.

I am tempted to do some testing pretty soon. I wonder if I could get a vendor or a member here to donate some new or used NT05's just for a test day.

Same car, same driver........NT05's versus R888's.

[Vegas69]

Kyle Newman is a hell of a wheel man with a great car. I've got a contact at Toyo but I doubt he'd tip his hat. My toyos are at the wear bars in the back and not far from it up front. About 3500 miles and a boat load of races. They could be a very similar compound but the R888 has more rubber due to the tread design. R888 has 6/32nd and the NT05 has 7.2/32nds from the factory.

[Flash68]

Kyle Newman is a hell of a wheel man with a great car.

What he said.. I would be hesitant to give his tires too much of the credit.. he can flat out drive that full framed car. But I also think you can drive too, G. :unibrow:

I cannot really opine too much as I've never driven R comps of any kind on a track, only the NT05's.

[Track Junky]

Kyle Newman is a hell of a wheel man with a great car. I've got a contact at Toyo but I doubt he'd tip his hat. My toyos are at the wear bars in the back and not far from it up front. About 3500 miles and a boat load of races. They could be a very similar compound but the R888 has more rubber due to the tread design. R888 has 6/32nd and the NT05 has 7.2/32nds from the factory.

kyle is a good wheel man and the vette set up underneath doenn't hurt. I just measured tread depth and I'm about 3/32 on about 1000 miles for the R888's. I'm still pretty curious though. I have a buddy with an extra set of wheels for me to borrow, I just need to come across a set of Nittos for a day.

[Vegas69]

That's the problem, the Nt05 doesn't always cross over well into this hobby. They aren't available in my sizes.

[Flash68]

That's the problem, the Nt05 doesn't always cross over well into this hobby. They aren't available in my sizes.

Yep, and with the 17s I run it is getting harder to get the exact tire and sizes I want too. 18s and 19s seem to be the sweeter spot nowadays.