Quarter sailpanel seams. Lead filler or ???

[BBC71Nova]

Hey guys. I'd like to get some feedback on the need to lead the quarter sail panel seams. I've personally always thought lead there was the "right" way to go since I've seen a few over the years that have filler there that has cracked. I'm sure it probably depends on the usage of the car and how much stress is applied to the area. My quarters have now been replaced and I need to decide on this before it leaves the shop.

Thanks

[absinthe]

There is a product called Dyna-glass that I used on my 67 Camaro. It is a fiberglass product that, according to several folks I trust, is being used instead of lead nowadays.

[dhutton]

Frank at Prodigy recommended a carbon fiber based filler made by SEM called Carbo-Fil which I used with good results so far.

Don

[BBC71Nova]

Thanks guys for the info.

That sub looks awesome. I've got some places on my OEM sub that I need to fill/smooth and plan on using All-Metal. Hopefully it works.

[Ron Fox]

What has everyone else used? This is an area of concern.

Thanks.

[70rs]

I would also like to know what has been used and is holding up ok still.
Many of the cars on this site get the snot beat out of them (Todd, Steve, James, Randy, Brian...just to name a few)
Would any of the owners of cars that see track time AND have had full quarter replacement care to comment? What type of filler was used and how is it holding up?
I personaly would like to hear from Randy, Brian or any other second gen owner.

[Ron Fox]

What else did ever one use?

Is All-Metal good to use on the quarter section or will it crack?

[brans72]

I am gonna touch on this since a buddy helped me and can add pictures later if you would like. This is just our way, well my buddy hates filler and thinks the less the better :thumbsup: , so we cut the top of the sail area off and fabbed a new piece to fit better quarter and roof out of 18 gauge metal, put about 14 slices in it to shape it and tacked one conrner and worked the metal all way down till was finished, then cleaned up with green rough 3m sand paper wheels and it looks great with very minimal filler need and should be stronger. This was our approach with each person doing it different ways. Brandon

[J2SpeedandCustom]

If the factory put lead there you need to put it back! "Any" type of filler will show after the car has been driven and set out in the sun. Do it correctly and you'll never have a problem. :yes:

[70rs]

I am gonna touch on this since a buddy helped me and can add pictures later if you would like. This is just our way, well my buddy hates filler and thinks the less the better :thumbsup: , so we cut the top of the sail area off and fabbed a new piece to fit better quarter and roof out of 18 gauge metal, put about 14 slices in it to shape it and tacked one conrner and worked the metal all way down till was finished, then cleaned up with green rough 3m sand paper wheels and it looks great with very minimal filler need and should be stronger. This was our approach with each person doing it different ways. Brandon

I would like to see pics of that. I need to swap both quarters and my roof.

[70rs]

If the factory put lead there you need to put it back! "Any" type of filler will show after the car has been driven and set out in the sun. Do it correctly and you'll never have a problem. :yes:

I dont know what was in mine to begin with. It was a vinyl roof car from the factory. When I got it, the roof to quarter seam had been cut out and attempted at a patch. Now I get to remove the crap the PO did and make it right.
I have seen MANY second gens with cracks there. I want to be sure it never happens to me.
Just say no to crack!:D

[Rick D]

I dont know what was in mine to begin with. It was a vinyl roof car from the factory. When I got it, the roof to quarter seam had been cut out and attempted at a patch. Now I get to remove the crap the PO did and make it right.
I have seen MANY second gens with cracks there. I want to be sure it never happens to me.
Just say no to crack!:D

Eric PM Scott (protour73) He should have pictures of how I did his 73 Camaro 4 years ago and still looks as good as day one. I think the pictures that i have are on a different computer.

[Ron Fox]

I would like to see photo's also.

Eric, what are you planning on usinig?

[Ron Fox]

If the factory put lead there you need to put it back! "Any" type of filler will show after the car has been driven and set out in the sun. Do it correctly and you'll never have a problem. :yes:

Are there any problems associated with working with lead? Is it easy to put on and work? Is it somewhat harmful while using it or after it has been applied?

[70rs]

Eric PM Scott (protour73) He should have pictures of how I did his 73 Camaro 4 years ago and still looks as good as day one. I think the pictures that i have are on a different computer.

Thanks Rick
I would like to see photo's also.

Eric, what are you planning on usinig?

I'm not sure yet Ron.
But to answer your question on lead, yeah it aint healthy for ya.

[BBC71Nova]

Right now I'm planning on going the lead route myself. It is "extra" so it might slip out of the plan for money reasons but like some of you, I think that is the "right" way to do it. Plenty of shops use other, more common fillers(fiber enforced filler, AllMetal, regular filler) and methods though without issue based on what I've found out. I think as long as whatever the choice if it is done well by a skilled individual, it will last.

They don't really use "lead" though due to health and environmental issues. It's some other similar "body solder" product. So some might argue "but it still isn't 'lead'" :)

I'll update with pics once the time comes.

[cacwyo]

Ron Fox,

All-Metal is a great product, used it for years and wouldnt attempt to use anything else for quarter seam applications. Applies well, sands well, and longevity and quality of the finish is fantastic. A light skim coat with some glaze when roughed out and youre ready for primer. :thumbsup:

[MarkM66]

Ron Fox,

All-Metal is a great product, used it for years and wouldnt attempt to use anything else for quarter seam applications. Applies well, sands well, and longevity and quality of the finish is fantastic. A light skim coat with some glaze when roughed out and youre ready for primer. :thumbsup:

+1 :)

[elitecustombody]

Cut out recessed section and butt-weld a new strip of metal or use body solder/lead.

[MarkM66]

Cut out recessed section and butt-weld a new strip of metal or use body solder/lead.

TIG only with that.

100% chance you'll see that weld in full sun if MIG welded.

[J2SpeedandCustom]

Are there any problems associated with working with lead? Is it easy to put on and work? Is it somewhat harmful while using it or after it has been applied?

Ron if you don't want to work with lead you can call "Johnson Mfg" - http://www.johnsonmfg.com/ they have a whole line of lead free solders that will work. You have to use a different tinning and the melting temp is a closer tolerance than lead. But you can sand / DA with fear of those little lead particles... :yes:

[The WidowMaker]

TIG only with that.

100% chance you'll see that weld in full sun if MIG welded.


i still dont understand exactally why some show up and some dont. i found out during my build that the lower portion of my quarters had rivets holding them on. nothing else.... there were no issues with hairline cracks visible at any point in time.

[MarkM66]

i still dont understand exactally why some show up and some dont. i found out during my build that the lower portion of my quarters had rivets holding them on. nothing else.... there were no issues with hairline cracks visible at any point in time.

It's not the movement, it's the hardened mig weld vs the normal sheet metal. It'll expands differently with heat. And it's worse at a place like the top of the b pillar, where sun would hit in directly.

[The WidowMaker]

It's not the movement, it's the hardened mig weld vs the normal sheet metal. It'll expands differently with heat. And it's worse at a place like the top of the b pillar, where sun would hit in directly.

ive heard a lot of possible explanations and thats one of them. others have been filler shinkage (although some say there car sat for a year before painted) and ive also heard joint prep/design with some using a butt weld and others using a lap weld. it would be interesting to take the temp of the body panels and see if there was any real difference between parts that are doing it. i have a few areas that have been worked and mig'd back up, and im planning on doing the marker lights soon. id rather not deal with any hairline cracks.

also, why would a chunck of lead in a seam not expand any different than the surrounding sheet metal?

sorry for the hijack.....

[elitecustombody]

It's not the movement, it's the hardened mig weld vs the normal sheet metal. It'll expands differently with heat. And it's worse at a place like the top of the b pillar, where sun would hit in directly.

I'd have to disagree. You're telling me that metal finished MIG wire will have significant enough difference against cold rolled steel in expanding and shrinking at temperature changes ,that it will show through primer and paint?If your theory is true, why I do not see brazed roof & quarter seam on many imports bleeding through? Does brass expand and shrink at same exact rate as steel?

I'm working on 94 Supra at the moment ,replacing one quarter,the seam was brazed with metal finished with zero filler or lead under paint,with less than 1/16" line of brass visible in the actual seam.

I work on and own MKIV Supras and have yet to see one that would show this seam through paint on these cars.

I also have done plenty of antenna,maker light,wipers and various holes shaved over last 22+ years on customer's cars with MIG and have not seen any come back .Can you explain?

[MarkM66]

I'd have to disagree. You're telling me that metal finished MIG wire will have significant enough difference against cold rolled steel in expanding and shrinking at temperature changes ,that it will show through primer and paint?If your theory is true, why I do not see brazed roof & quarter seam on many imports bleeding through? Does brass expand and shrink at same exact rate as steel?

I'm working on 94 Supra at the moment ,replacing one quarter,the seam was brazed with metal finished with zero filler or lead under paint,with less than 1/16" line of brass visible in the actual seam.

I work on and own MKIV Supras and have yet to see one that would show this seam through paint on these cars.

I also have done plenty of antenna,maker light,wipers and various holes shaved over last 22+ years on customer's cars with MIG and have not seen any come back .Can you explain?

How many black cars have you mig welded the top of the b pillar with a piece of sheet metal, put out in the sun and really scrutinized it looking for a line?

As far as different metal expansion rates, I don't know, I'm not a metallurgist. :)

I just know what I've seen. I see it a quite often at car shows. Even high end cars. I've actually looked at their build book, looked were they mig welded a panel on, and went to look for the line, and found it. I realize it may not have always been from the heat of the sun though.

On my Nova, someone mig welded a quarter on right under the factory seem for some reason, I cleaned it and re welded it. After the car was done and painted, out in the sun, I could see the line. Ended up putting a full quarter on it, and re-painted the whole body :( . I've seen several threads on other sites where things such as this has happened.

If you guys aren't having any come backs, more power to you. :cheers:

But I will never again put a mig weld in the middle of a panel that faces anywhere near the sky. Especially if it's a dark color. :D

[elitecustombody]

Maybe it's just my luck,but I don't have that problem,lol. But if you compare lead and steel,then finished MIG weld and steel, wouldn't you think that lead would be more susceptible to temperature changes? I'm not metallurgist either but this topic has got me thinking. Honestly I just need to quit being lazy and use TIG weld butt seams just to be safe:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Brass and "bondo" don't mix.... never bondo (body filler) over a brazed area.

We quit doing that in the late 60's.

I totally disagree with any statement that the MIG weld would be somehow inferior to the TIG weld regarding shrinkage or showing seams. TIG wire is softer and is easier to control the heat on a panel - but it's not superior or inferior to a good MIG weld.

What you might be seeing is where the MIG weld is harder to grind and they've ground down the base metal too thin around the weld. The thinned metal may expand at a different rate than the thicker base metal around it. That is just bad workmanship -- but not the WELD itself. TIG is far easier to metal work... and done properly warps the panel LESS (it will be warped)... and grinds easier. Both take skill to do properly.

[elitecustombody]

Brass and "bondo" don't mix.... never bondo (body filler) over a brazed area.

We quit doing that in the late 60's.

I totally disagree with any statement that the MIG weld would be somehow inferior to the TIG weld regarding shrinkage or showing seams. TIG wire is softer and is easier to control the heat on a panel - but it's not superior or inferior to a good MIG weld.

What you might be seeing is where the MIG weld is harder to grind and they've ground down the base metal too thin around the weld. The thinned metal may expand at a different rate than the thicker base metal around it. That is just bad workmanship -- but not the WELD itself. TIG is far easier to metal work... and done properly warps the panel LESS (it will be warped)... and grinds easier. Both take skill to do properly.

Greg, thanks for your input. I agree with you, properly finished MIG weld shouldn't be visible in paint.TIG weld is just easier to smooth down.

[Ron Fox]

Ron if you don't want to work with lead you can call "Johnson Mfg" - http://www.johnsonmfg.com/ they have a whole line of lead free solders that will work. You have to use a different tinning and the melting temp is a closer tolerance than lead. But you can sand / DA with fear of those little lead particles... :yes:

So the Lead Free Solders are better than or just as good as the Lead? Will it be equal to the show finish of Jeff's subframe work which looks very nice by the way.