Question for auto shops / engine builders (and request for help)

[BBC69Camaro]

Do you think an automotive tech should understand how to rebuild or machine an engine? Or even have tried to do some engine machining / rebuilding before trying to work in the field? If so please read on.

I’ll try to summarize the situation. In prep for my project I had a taken a bunch of automotive classes at a local junior college. Mr. Norris was the professor of the engine diagnostic / machining / rebuilding classes. He was extremely knowledgeable and helpful and had allowed me to work on my engine/car as part of the hands-on portion of the lab-work. All the teachers there really went out of their way to help the students learn. I really credit his and the other teacher’s help and knowledge for all that I had learnt and for much of what I was able to do on my project.

As it turns out, last Friday I went back to visit and found out that Mr. Norris’ engine machining/rebuilding class is to be cancelled for the fall. The Dean of the technology school felt that knowledge of engine machining/rebuilding is not really needed any longer and hence will be cancelling all future engine machining and rebuilding classes.

Mr. Norris was hoping to find some engine builders or automotive shops that might be willing to write a letter or speak in support of keeping engine machining/rebuilding as part of the automotive curriculum.

I certainly feel that engine machining/rebuilding helped me a lot of really understand how a motor works and is supposed to fit together. And I feel the loss of such a valuable program hurts any future students. So I am hoping there might be some local engine builders or shop owners that might be willing to reach out and help Mr. Norris underscore the importance of such classes to keep them from being removed.

The Junior college is local to Los Angeles, CA but anything you might be able to do to help like a written letter in support would be greatly appreciated. If you are willing to help please feel free to PM/email me any contact information and I’ll make sure Mr. Norris gets in touch with you.

Thanks in advance for helping to save engine machining and rebuilding in this local Junior College program!

[Vegas69]

Auto tech's by definition do little to no machining. I have an associate degree in auto mechanics and was an ASEP student for GM with internships and the whole nine yards. The most machining I ever did was turning rotors. Auto mechanics aren't machinists. We were trained on electrical systems, fuel injection, transmission rebuilding, engine rebuilding, carburetors, differentials, alignment, supsension, etc.

Rebuilding is the only thing that applies. We did learn honing, all the finite measruing, installed heights, degreeing of cams, etc.

I think machining and rebuilding are two different fields in the real world with the exception of engine builders. They rarely install and engine, however.

[SLO_Z28]

Auto tech's by definition do little to no machining. I have an associate degree in auto mechanics and was an ASEP student for GM with internships and the whole nine yards. The most machining I ever did was turning rotors. Auto mechanics aren't machinists. We were trained on electrical systems, fuel injection, transmission rebuilding, engine rebuilding, carburetors, differentials, alignment, supsension, etc.

Rebuilding is the only thing that applies. We did learn honing, all the finite measruing, installed heights, degreeing of cams, etc.

I think machining and rebuilding are two different fields in the real world with the exception of engine builders. They rarely install and engine, however.

Dead on, couldn't have said it better.


I also went through the ASEP program, what a small world.

[BBC69Camaro]

I certainly agree rebuilding and machining are two different animals. And I don't think as a regular auto tech you would be doing much of either. But you don't think understanding the process allows one to better understand everything else?

I think by knowing a bit more you gain a better understanding of how everything works and is supposed to fit together. Plus when you get something back from a Machine shop you would know how to double check critical measurements and make sure the part is correct before installing it (and avoiding the customer having to bring the car back later if it wasn't).


We rebuilt a number of cylinder heads in our class, actually spent a lot of time learning all the different critical measurements and how properly machine guides, valves and seats. When I bought my new Brodix heads, and another student got some new Dart heads, we measured both heads and were really surprised just how bad these brand new heads were.

One of the most nail biting things I have done so far in my project was put my brand new Brodix heads on the cylinder head machine and cut the seats and redo the guides and valves. The run out was horrible (up to 0.009" when you want under 0.001") on the valve seat. The Dart heads were no different. I guess that is why they charge so much for "race prep" jobbers. But if we didn't know what to check, we would have just ended up slapping them on, not even knowing how poor the tolerances were.

I think it goes with any field you education should give you a solid base even if you might not use that knowledge on a daily basis. Also having given some exposure some people will move into that specialty after a few years in the field. A new auto tech is liable to only be doing the very simple repairs at first but would you only train them to do those few simple things? Or would a well rounded education be better so that one can quickly move on to more complicated repairs?

[Vegas69]

We learned to do valve jobs as well. It's just not realistic in the regular auto world. The first problem is the equipment just isn't available in these shops. It's a replace, replace world. I always preferred to rebuild or fix something and often had to fight to go that direction. I remember when I first moved here and got hired at the local GMC/Pontiac dealer. There was one guy that could rebuild a transmission, one. I was the jack of all trades. I was 22 and ripped the transmission out of a trans am to rebuild it. I later found out that the other techs had a bet on whether the car would ever move again. :lol: Of course it did.

When I think of engine machining it consists of crank turning, boring, line honing, sleeving, decking, cutting valve seats, new guides, etc.

Clearly in this small aspect of the auto world,(Resto-mod)machining and fabrication is very important. Only the high end shops do much machining.

I don't disagree that it's a positive thing to teach new auto technicians. The majority just won't likely ever use it again.

[BBC69Camaro]

Todd, certainly we both agree the resto/mod shops engine machining would be very important.

But one area I think we just have to agree to disagree is even as a regular tech I think you would be using the principles of machining on a daily basis, even if you might not be doing the machining yourself. I would hope any tech that was working on a car of mine would be double checking what came back from a machine shop, or double check that new part instead of just bolting it on and hope that it works.

I think you have to understand engine machining to really know backwards and forwards how all this stuff is supposed to fit together. Having done the actual machining a few times I think gives a person a much greater understanding, and that should translate to having the ability to spot something or knowing how to measure if something is wrong even with a "fresh" or brand new part.

[BBC69Camaro]

*bump*

[Vegas69]

Measuring and machining are two different ball games.

99% of auto techs are flat rate. Are they going to tear down a cylinder head that just had a valve job by a machine shop or is a brand new part. Very unlikely... They don't get paid to do that.

I'm talking real world here. Dealerships and small independent shops, not a hot rod shop.

[BBC69Camaro]

Measuring and machining are two different ball games.

99% of auto techs are flat rate. Are they going to tear down a cylinder head that just had a valve job by a machine shop or is a brand new part. Very unlikely... They don't get paid to do that.

I'm talking real world here. Dealerships and small independent shops, not a hot rod shop.

I'm not talking about tearing down a head. Having done the machining yourself once I think you would know more about what you need to measure. Like on a head, run-out on the valve seats, whether the tip height is correct, how large the margin should be, and what kind of vacuum each cylinder can hold. True it is measurement but w/o having done any machining its harder to know how critical those measurements are or what measurements should be done.

A great example of this is a friend of mine had a cylinder head go out for machining due to a burnt valve. The machine shop completely screwed up the machining and the valve, and it was way too deep in the head. But did the tech installing the head catch it? No, even thou a simple visual check should have caught the error. Big waste of time on all fronts since the head was installed and had to be torn down again. I bet if that tech had ever done a valve job the chances of catching that error would have been much greater.

[Scorpner]

I think it's always important to learn as much as possible about the processes up and down the line. Knowledge is power and a guy without knowledge doesn't know what he's missing.

I was an electronic technician for many years that also had a couple of years of education in engineering. I had a far better understanding of what was going on, what the engineers meant, and the reasoning for the way many things were done. It even helped me communicate with my customers more effectively.

A couple of misgivings I have about a school taking away a class like that are; the lack of knowledge taught and thus a lack of the quality of education being sold to the student, and also a lack of the ability to move laterally in the field. Not every technician ends up doing tech work, sometimes life presents opportunities and having a broader exposure can allow a guy to move into something that he couldn't have otherwise.

Students are the customers of any college, but it often seems like it's the other way around since students are used to being told what to do. IMO, when making decisions like this, the consumers best interests should be foremost in their mind.