What is the best starting point for a project

[nl12]

I am looking to build a 68 or 69 Camaro setup for street and track, I'm thinking aftermarket front and rear suspension, LS motor, floater axle, big brakes, Forgelines, ect. I have never done a project like this before, from folks with experience what condition of car would be the best starting point financially and not compromise the end product. I am in no hurry to finish, I don't do paint or body work so I would take to to a shop to get that part done. It seems unreasonable to buy a car for 20-30k just to tear it apart, I see cars in the teens that are so-so but you never know how good or bad they are till its tore down and stripped, and then there are the what you see is what you get cars that clearly have rust issues... I wonder if one of those would be better in the end since I want to start from a bare shell anyway? What do you guys suggest from your experience?
Thanks
Nick

[Rybar]

Spend as much as you can afford for a complete car with a solid body. All the small trim pieces, nuts, bolts, stainless etc can add up to alot when building a car nut and bolt type restoration.

[PSV]

Buy this, add your drive train and your done. No paint jail and no fabrication.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=31371

[Ron in SoCal]

Spend as much as you can afford for a complete car with a solid body. All the small trim pieces, nuts, bolts, stainless etc can add up to alot when building a car nut and bolt type restoration.

^ This is good advice. Check out the build thread in my sig. It'd be very easy to spend 20 - 35k in sheet metal and paint, plus the cost of the car if you did not start out with a clean car. Be patient and keep your eyes peeled for a documented resto that's as complete as can be. One other thought for you...if I had to do it again, I'd also do one project at a time and minimize down time to keep the car on the road. Good luck and send me a PM if I can help in any way...:thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

Buy a car that is as close to what you want as possible and make changes to it over time. I would never build one from scratch again. To much time, effort, and MONEY. Sorry builders...

[Payton King]

We have a winner! Todd is right. You can normally buy a completed car way cheaper than you can build one and would be enjoying it months or years sooner.

The car listed above is one nice car! I have seen it in person when David was building it. If you have the means, I think it would be a home run.

[CRCRFT78]

Even buying partially complete projects are a good starting point. Check the For Sale section, projects come up for sale all the time that can save you loads of money and time.

[greycamaro]

buy your wife or significate other flowers and candy first, as the project will drain the savings account.

[Matt@BOS]

This is a hobby of diminishing returns on your dollars, at least in general. paying 20-30 for a "done" car that has paint, interior, glass, etc. that you want, and then taking it apart, will be cheaper than starting from scratch. provided you use more than just the shell, then modifying a 20-40 car will still be cheaper than starting from a pile of parts that barely resembles a car.


If you want to build a car like the One Lap Camaro, then you might be best to start with a clean shell and build it up, which gives you the opportunity to choose every detail you want. If you're looking for something like Finch's car, which it sounds like you are, then it is way cheaper, and far more convenient to start with a running driving car.

Matt

p.s. the less complete the project that you buy is, the more opportunities you have to change things. Ask me how I know...

[Bryan O]

I am looking to build a 68 or 69 Camaro setup for street and track, I'm thinking aftermarket front and rear suspension, LS motor, floater axle, big brakes, Forgelines, ect. I have never done a project like this before, from folks with experience what condition of car would be the best starting point financially and not compromise the end product. I am in no hurry to finish, I don't do paint or body work so I would take to to a shop to get that part done. It seems unreasonable to buy a car for 20-30k just to tear it apart, I see cars in the teens that are so-so but you never know how good or bad they are till its tore down and stripped, and then there are the what you see is what you get cars that clearly have rust issues... I wonder if one of those would be better in the end since I want to start from a bare shell anyway? What do you guys suggest from your experience?
Thanks
Nick

Okay, finally something I can comment on with experience to back up my opinion.

First let me give you my impression of what I sense from your post:

1) "I am looking to build a 68 or 69 Camaro setup for street and track."

Basically something you can drive a lot and that will do well at the autocross.

2) "I'm thinking aftermarket front and rear suspension, LS motor, floater axle, big brakes, Forgelines, ect..."

Means, to me, your not adverse to spending a lot of cashola. :yes:

3) "It seems unreasonable to buy a car for 20-30k just to tear it apart, I see cars in the teens that are so-so but you never know how good or bad they are till its tore down and stripped, and then there are the what you see is what you get cars that clearly have rust issues..."

In my mind, this means you already know you need to search for a project car of the type that's "been sitting in the desert for 35 years". One that'll cost you way less than a project someone else has already started. Much less rust is what you're searching for. Never know what those "partially completed projects" are really like underneath. Right?

4) "I wonder if one of those would be better in the end since I want to start from a bare shell anyway?"

They are better to start with. Provided you can find a relatively rust free one to begin with. I bought two (a 67 for my son and a 69 for myself) for less than 8k combined. But, you gotta do your due diligence. They are out there. I'd give a source here as a plug but I've been sending him too much business without much reciprocation. PM me and I'll give you his contact info.

Contrary to Todd and Payton King, I say if you have the money (which it seems like you MAY), then build your car from scratch. Everything you need is available new. But keep in mind there's a premium to pay.

End product will be far superior, IMHO.

Okay builders, pay up. :)

[strtcar]

man you guys are making be think twice about the 1970 chevelle i bought in boxes.

[nl12]

Buy this, add your drive train and your done. No paint jail and no fabrication.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=31371

If it was a 68 or 69 it could be a consideration, I already have a mental picture of how I want the car and I would hate to repaint a newly painted car. Good luck with the sale.

[nl12]

This is a hobby of diminishing returns on your dollars, at least in general. paying 20-30 for a "done" car that has paint, interior, glass, etc. that you want, and then taking it apart, will be cheaper than starting from scratch. provided you use more than just the shell, then modifying a 20-40 car will still be cheaper than starting from a pile of parts that barely resembles a car.


If you want to build a car like the One Lap Camaro, then you might be best to start with a clean shell and build it up, which gives you the opportunity to choose every detail you want. If you're looking for something like Finch's car, which it sounds like you are, then it is way cheaper, and far more convenient to start with a running driving car.

Matt

p.s. the less complete the project that you buy is, the more opportunities you have to change things. Ask me how I know...

I think finding one with things already done the way I want them will be difficult. I feel like I have 90% of the details of the car worked out in my head already. I think in the short run it would be better to start with a running car that I can enjoy from day one, but in the long run it could likely be more expensive and frustrating to take it apart and do it in stages. I did not get into a lot of detail of my vision for the car in my original post because I thought it would be too long. My friends think I'm crazy maybe you guys can see where I'm going with this, here's the lay-down:

68 or 69 Camaro setup as a performance oriented car that will see most of its miles on the street, I must say upfront I like my cars loud, raw, and brutally fast. I want it to look kinda sublime yet sinister.

The look, Corvette supersonic blue metallic paint, everything else black, wipers shaved. Full DSE suspension setup, big brake setup balance bar pedal box, brake cooling ducts. Floater rear axle with quaife differential and cooler setup. Inside Recaros, AiM MXL dash, minimalist sound system, AC, black, lots of Dynamat. Built LS with a whipple supercharger 800ish hp, drysump, and the best and most badass part EMCO sequential transmission with strain gauged shifter (if I can't swing it a T56 Magnum) Definitely want the shell stitch welded and some strategic chassis stiffening added along with the DSE subframe connectors and tubs. Of course a few nice billet bits here and there, smoothed firewall, ect.

You guys are definitely helping me see the light, "rust bucket" and "pile of parts" will not be my starting point, I'm thinking along the lines of a solid mostly complete unrestored running/not running car.

[GregWeld]

Building these cars - regardless of the end result or desired 'use' - is about the hobby.... big money or zero budget... it's all about what I like to call the "hunting and the gathering"... the people you'll meet... the dreaming and scheming... and the "process" and the choices etc.

A car is a relationship. There will be highs and lows. There will be things that go super right and there are times when you'll really question WTF you're doing.

Here's the advice I give to all my friends that ask. Be dang sure you START with the car that you've always wanted. Period. Because it's going to be a long road - and it's very very expensive - and you will more than likely have a product that is worth about half or less when you finish. If you asked me what stock you should buy - and I told you - buy "X" - and you knew when you bought the shares of that company that they'd be worth less than half the next day - would you do it? The point is - you'd better really WANT to just own that stock.

There is already very good advice posted above. Start with the best body and paint that you can afford - and buying a perfectly done car is by far the least expensive way to go AND you get the benefit of being able to use the car while you're planning on what to tear apart. So many people buy a $2500 clapped out shell of a car because it's "cheap" and they can "afford it". Let me tell you that they can't afford to even START in this hobby and that $2500 car is ANYTHING BUT CHEAP. Having said this - I've seen lots of expensive cars bought that turned out to be giant sink holes and complete re-dos because under that shiny paint was a bondo wagon.

Cars are like busses.... there's another one coming by every 15 minutes. If you're willing and able to spend "X" right now. Then spend that on the best car you can to start with. But don't delude yourself into thinking that you can build a car by saving up $500 a month and buying parts as you can. The car will never get done and will end up being box storage in your garage until you finally give it away. If you buy a car that is "done" you can drive it and enjoy and then save your $500 a month til you get enough for the changes you want to make. Brakes.... or front suspension... whatever. But chew those off as you can start and complete. So you don't tear it all apart unless you can finish it. If it's a weekend project you want to tear something apart on Saturday and be able to finish it the following Saturday.

A buddy called me the other day - like 3 weeks ago - wanted to buy a "nice" '69 Camaro... I turned him onto a car that was posted here in the for sale section... it was "way more money" than he wanted to spend -- but I convinced him that he was going to spend that much money eventually - and that if he could in any way afford to do it all now - that it would be money well spent. He stepped up and bought the car (for about 50 cents on the dollar spent to build it) and is so thrilled! He was able to take it home and put the family in it and start to immediately enjoy it. He had no tools and no skills - so a project was out of the question.

So shop til you find the very best car you can --- and then start enjoying all the other facets this great hobby has to offer... the people you'll meet... the dreams... and the satisfaction of a job well done.

[GregWeld]

I think finding one with things already done the way I want them will be difficult. I feel like I have 90% of the details of the car worked out in my head already. I think in the short run it would be better to start with a running car that I can enjoy from day one, but in the long run it could likely be more expensive and frustrating to take it apart and do it in stages. I did not get into a lot of detail of my vision for the car in my original post because I thought it would be too long. My friends think I'm crazy maybe you guys can see where I'm going with this, here's the lay-down:

68 or 69 Camaro setup as a performance oriented car that will see most of its miles on the street, I must say upfront I like my cars loud, raw, and brutally fast. I want it to look kinda sublime yet sinister.

The look, Corvette supersonic blue metallic paint, everything else black, wipers shaved. Full DSE suspension setup, big brake setup balance bar pedal box, brake cooling ducts. Floater rear axle with quaife differential and cooler setup. Inside Recaros, AiM MXL dash, minimalist sound system, AC, black, lots of Dynamat. Built LS with a whipple supercharger 800ish hp, drysump, and the best and most badass part EMCO sequential transmission with strain gauged shifter (if I can't swing it a T56 Magnum) Definitely want the shell stitch welded and some strategic chassis stiffening added along with the DSE subframe connectors and tubs. Of course a few nice billet bits here and there, smoothed firewall, ect.

You guys are definitely helping me see the light, "rust bucket" and "pile of parts" will not be my starting point, I'm thinking along the lines of a solid mostly complete unrestored running/not running car.


You just built a $200,000 car in your "mind" and you're questioning whether or not you can afford a $22,000 transmission? Maybe your friends are right. :willy: :faint: :lol:

[JMitch19]

Just wondering why you aren't considering the 1967 Camaro's? You do realize that the 67 and 68 are about 95% identical. Appearance wise the only difference between the 67 and 68 are the marker lights, grill and the vent windows. If I sold my car today and was looking for a project I’d be all over PSV's 67. I understand if there is a lot of stuff you would want to change why you wouldn't want it.

I think the advice these guys are giving you is spot on. My current car is my 3rd 1st gen (1967, 1969, and now 1968). It’s the first car that I have taken down to a shell and completely redone. It took me 5 years to get done. I guess useable maybe a better term. They are never done. I was fresh out college when started this car so money was tighter than it is now, but the majority of my delays were due to things outside my control i.e. paint, parts on backorder, parts not fitting without modification, ect. If I were to do it again today I would look to a car like PSV’s that is almost done or I would buy a nice driver and update as I go while keeping it drivable.

[Flash68]

A buddy called me the other day - like 3 weeks ago - wanted to buy a "nice" '69 Camaro... I turned him onto a car that was posted here in the for sale section... it was "way more money" than he wanted to spend -- but I convinced him that he was going to spend that much money eventually - and that if he could in any way afford to do it all now - that it would be money well spent. He stepped up and bought the car (for about 50 cents on the dollar spent to build it) and is so thrilled! He was able to take it home and put the family in it and start to immediately enjoy it. He had no tools and no skills - so a project was out of the question.



This is very sound advice, and a pretty common example I would say.

Basically if you have some flex in your finished product and parts list, you can save the money AND be on the road right away or soon. But as you say, you have 90% of the vision in your head, and you can afford it, you may NEED to start from scratch to achieve that. Or at least with a very early stage project car. Buckle up and be ready to wait for 2, 3, 4+ years.... take a look at the project updates or introduction sections here and see many cars actually make it to completion.

Oh, and that orange 67 linked here is an excellent start. Great suspension for tracking and well done body and paint, and you just saved yourself maybe a year there. And all for $28k. Great deal for someone.

[waynieZ]

Buy a car that is as close to what you want as possible and make changes to it over time. I would never build one from scratch again. To much time, effort, and MONEY. Sorry builders...

I'm with you Todd!