Composite leaf springs om 69 Camaro

[T-T]

Hello there.
A couple of years where I just have followed the various posts, this is my first post on this forum.
I hope that it will give me a lot of response to my humble questions, as I will do anything to help out where I can make a difference.
I've separated my 69 Camaro and seek knowledge and new parts to make it a scary street machine, -ready to give all the "exotic" buy-cars like Ferrari and Porsche opportunities to look at my rear taillights and smoking rear tires :unibrow:

-----------------------
I plan to buy myself a set of composite leaf springs from VBP to my 69 Camaro.
- Those of you who have the fiberglass leaf springs already installed and running for a while, maybe you can tell me what it gives and takes. -Good and bad.
- In my Camaro, i´m planing approx 500 hp,5 speed manual and I will use the car for street and “semi-serious” weekend autocross.
- Is it possible to order the composite leaf springs 2 inch lowering rear of the car. -or do I have to do it with lowering Blocks.? .. don´t like!
- I've seen people talk about 150 to 210 pounds of pressure/strength ??? ... what can be recommended - please tell from your experiences.
-Can they break ...!!! .. -- is after all just two rods of fiberglass ... or is it??

Leaf spring link: http://www.vbandp.com/Camaro/1st-Gen-1967-69.html

Thanks for all help before I order ....??
Tom –Denmark-

[Roberts68]

Welcome to the forum.

I looked into VBP composite springs again recently, I had their catalog and considered that route back in the early 90's. I was mostly curious whether they were still being made or if VBP was still around.

I have no firsthand experience with their product.

I have seen very few folks here running a composite spring.

CarlC ran them on his 68 Camaro but they were Flex-a-form and he had custom spherical bushings in the front eye. I do believe that he has gone back to a metal spring and that may coincide with the additional power from a Magnuson supercharger.

flex-a-form link (http://www.flex-form.com/products.asp)

Deaver spherical bushing link (http://www.deaverspring.com/products/bushings.html)

From what I have read here there is somewhat of a hp threshhold indicated at around 500hp. Some say that a leafspring is being asked a bit much to work with that load. You may want to look into alternative suspension setups for the goals you mentioned. I am sure others will be along to mention the vast number of options available for a build like that, and I can think of at least one vendor with ongoing experience shipping parts across the big pond to your neighbors.

[Sieg]

Welcome Tom!


I have not seen any of the "top" Camaro parts vendors promoting fiberglass springs and I haven't seen any project cars using them. The trend is coil over 4-link or torque arm rear suspension, which would be my recommendation if you want to take on the big boys. :D

I considered them 10 years ago, but ended up with Global West steel leaf @ 175 lb. I went 2" lower and added 1" blocks and it's still a little high for my liking. These cars vary a little so don't rely on my numbers. FWIW - My future plans include SpeedTech's torque arm rear suspension.

[T-T]

The trend is coil over 4-link or torque arm rear suspension, which would be my recommendation if you want to take on the big boys. :D

Thanks for response.
I know, -it's certainly not easy to play with the big guys (or girl).... but why not - I know that the road is long and most of the road is uphill, but the big guys also began their dreams as little boys .....:thumbsup:
-- Okay - You're probably right, that it would be more up to date with a 4-link system from one of the major vendors, - but there is just this huge problem here in Denmark. - It will still be a legal streetcar with license plates on, - and if (read when) I get tackled by police (the state), they will look at my "old" 1969 Camaro like a brand new car and therefore collect a huge amount of tax as if it were a brand new car - we're talking about plus 8-9000 dollars. -Yes!:willy:
Therefore we have to rebuild cautiously, with only small improvements in our old cars.
...and therefore a set of leaf springs of composite is very interesting -if I can reduce weight by 30-35 pounds per leafspring (60-65 pounds waauuw!!), it can not be all wrong.
I´m looking forward to here some more response - Thanks

[Sieg]

Check this rear system: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=333936&postcount=161
Dollar for dollar it's one of the better options and appears to be a relatively simple install. Certainly not a cheap as a simple leaf spring change though, but if you want to play with the big boys I don't think leaf springs are the answer. Don't know how the state regs would apply to this kit.

[JKnight]

I run 220 lb/sq in. Hyperco composite leafs on my car with a Fays2 Watt's link. I can tell you that the ride is great due to the lower unsprung weight and it handles really well. I haven't done any competitions so I have no numbers or rankings in events to back it up, but for less than $1,500 I feel I have a very competent rear suspension. I believe I will need to add a sway bar or more front tire to improve balance at some point, but for an 90% street car it's not really necessary. I would have preferred the adjustability of a 4-link, but given my budget it just wasn't in the cards.

I would think one of the limitations, downsides, for any fiberglass spring is going to be with axle wrap/wheel hop. This has not been an issue for me thus far, but I'm only running 425-450 hp and have a heavy 9" rear end in the back.

[T-T]

I run 220 lb/sq in.
I would think one of the limitations, downsides, for any fiberglass spring is going to be with axle wrap/wheel hop. This has not been an issue for me thus far, but I'm only running 425-450 hp and have a heavy 9" rear end in the back.

Hi JKnight. -Thanks for responding-
- You got the 220lb??.. isn´t that too hard, -when i look in the Classic Industries catalog they are talking 125(mono) to 143 lbs(multi)??

- Yours 425-450 is almost the same as i´m planing.
The guy at VBP ask me - whether they should be prepared for Calvert Racing Caltrax bars - maybe that´s the way to do it?!

Tom

[JKnight]

You have to keep in mind the end user for a spring from Classic industries. That guy is going for a restoration, not building a Camaro to handle on the street or track.

I don't believe mine are too stiff at all. In fact, I would have no problems going with 250 lbs or maybe even higher. Paired with a good shock, there is no rough ride associated with a spring that strong. The reduced unsprung weight helps the ride quality quite a bit.

[T-T]

You have to keep in mind the end user for a spring from Classic industries. That guy is going for a restoration, not building a Camaro to handle on the street or track.

I don't believe mine are too stiff at all. In fact, I would have no problems going with 250 lbs or maybe even higher. Paired with a good shock, there is no rough ride associated with a spring that strong. The reduced unsprung weight helps the ride quality quite a bit.

Okay - many thanks JKnight.:thumbsup:

and next .............?????
Come on guys..... are you serious now :willy:
- there must be several Camarosss out there who have mounted a pair of fiberglass leafsprings - otherwise the company must be close to shutting down the fabrication.

[Sieg]

Over the 22 years I've had my car and dabbled in research the glass springs don't appear to have little if any popularity in the upper-end hi-performance arena. Simply put - If they were really that good they wouldn't they be more popular?

In general the leaf spring for passenger cars are pretty much a dead design. Another issue is consistency of flex/spring rate, with golf club shafts the early graphite/boron stuff was horribly inconsistent, impossible to exactly duplicate a club due to overall stiffness and flex-point variations. The newer generation golf shafts have narrowed the margin of deviation substantially. You have to ask the question: Are the fiberglass composite leaf manufacturers as sophisticated?

I know you want them, but I just don't perceive them as the better choice in todays market.

[JKnight]

When coupled with a well engineered lateral locating device, the composite springs are left to do a very specific job; not unlike a coil spring in a link arrangement. They are not very good at controlling lateral movement, so you have to help them out with a locating device (panhard, watt's, etc) With that done, my experience/belief is that the composite leafs do their job every bit as well as a steel spring, while having the benefit of subsantially reduced unsprung weight. That benefit should not be overlooked or trivialized, as it makes a noticeable difference.

The OP is in Denmark and can not go with a link arrangement without running into significant legal issues with the local tax-man. I will agree that the geometry of well sorted 4-link arrangement has benefits over the leafs, but many have proven that leafs can work very well in competition, even against those with link style rear setups.

I don't know if a composite spring would be worth a significant premium over a well-engineered steel spring, but I can tell you that they should not be written off as an option just because they aren't more popular.

[Roberts68]

When coupled with a well engineered lateral locating device, the composite springs are left to do a very specific job; not unlike a coil spring in a link arrangement. They are not very good at controlling lateral movement, so you have to help them out with a locating device (panhard, watt's, etc) With that done, my experience/belief is that the composite leafs do their job every bit as well as a steel spring, while having the benefit of subsantially reduced unsprung weight. That benefit should not be overlooked or trivialized, as it makes a noticeable difference.

I'm neither for or against, if they have merit great and they have always intrigued me since I first heard of them. But... I would be curious whether they save enough weight if they require additional steel in the forms you mentioned. I suppose they may, and that steel leafs may benefit or require the same devices to perform at the same level.

[JKnight]

The need for a locating device can cut into your savings in terms of weight and $$ vs. going with a link setup (particularly if you go the Watt's link route), but the weight savings will still be significant.

I don't think they're the top option available for our cars, but they're a viable one given your goals and restrictions. I'm just a guy with a keyboard who used them on my car though. There is plenty of evidence that people like Mary are using steel springs on their cars (Hotchkis, Global West, DSE) and having success, so you can have good performance without going composite.

[Bryce]

A watts link does not need to weigh alot. Mine weighs 8.4 pounds.

[JKnight]

Agreed. Even my Fays2 setup does not weigh much more than 15lbs, and all that weight is sprung.

[Hotchkis]

Hello there.
A couple of years where I just have followed the various posts, this is my first post on this forum.
I hope that it will give me a lot of response to my humble questions, as I will do anything to help out where I can make a difference.
I've separated my 69 Camaro and seek knowledge and new parts to make it a scary street machine, -ready to give all the "exotic" buy-cars like Ferrari and Porsche opportunities to look at my rear taillights and smoking rear tires :unibrow:

-----------------------
I plan to buy myself a set of composite leaf springs from VBP to my 69 Camaro.
- Those of you who have the fiberglass leaf springs already installed and running for a while, maybe you can tell me what it gives and takes. -Good and bad.
- In my Camaro, i´m planing approx 500 hp,5 speed manual and I will use the car for street and “semi-serious” weekend autocross.
- Is it possible to order the composite leaf springs 2 inch lowering rear of the car. -or do I have to do it with lowering Blocks.? .. don´t like!
- I've seen people talk about 150 to 210 pounds of pressure/strength ??? ... what can be recommended - please tell from your experiences.
-Can they break ...!!! .. -- is after all just two rods of fiberglass ... or is it??

Leaf spring link: http://www.vbandp.com/Camaro/1st-Gen-1967-69.html

Thanks for all help before I order ....??
Tom –Denmark-

Tom,
Composite leaf springs are great for Corvette front suspensions (where it’s transverse mounted) since they only need to spring up and down. As a rear leaf spring in a car like your Camaro, the spring is subjected to lateral forces where it is not as strong. The worst possible force for a composite leaf spring is to twist it into an S-shape, which is what would happen if you have a high-output engine and moderate traction. Adding a lowering block to any rear leaf spring moves the centerline of the drive axle away from the leaf spring, which greatly increases the leverage of forces that attempt to turn the spring into the shape of an S. Adding a lowering block to a composite leaf spring is not suggested.
Leaf springs like the ones we offer are extremely effective for handling. Mary Pozzi and Carl Casanova have been wiping up the competition with Hotchkis leaf springs on their Camaros.
Carl Casanova
http://image.superchevy.com/f/31334320+w750+st0/sucp_1101_20+2010_super_chevy_suspension_and_handl ing_challenge+thumbs_up.jpg
Mary Pozzi
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/photos/data/745/IMG_7364.JPG
They have proved that you don’t have to spend a ton of time and money to have a good handling vehicle.

[Mkelcy]

Tom,
Composite leaf springs are great for Corvette front suspensions (where it’s transverse mounted) since they only need to spring up and down. As a rear leaf spring in a car like your Camaro, the spring is subjected to lateral forces where it is not as strong. The worst possible force for a composite leaf spring is to twist it into an S-shape, which is what would happen if you have a high-output engine and moderate traction. Adding a lowering block to any rear leaf spring moves the centerline of the drive axle away from the leaf spring, which greatly increases the leverage of forces that attempt to turn the spring into the shape of an S. Adding a lowering block to a composite leaf spring is not suggested.

Leaf springs like the ones we offer are extremely effective for handling. Mary Pozzi and Carl Casanova have been wiping up the competition with Hotchkis leaf springs on their Camaros.

With respect, Carl ran Flex-a-Form composite leaf springs with swivel bushings for (I think) at least five years before he recently swapped over to the Hotchkis springs and was pretty sucessful with that setup as well.

Most of us who run composite leafs have found that we can run higher springs rates with less relative degradation of ride when compared to steel springs.

[JKnight]

Tom,
Composite leaf springs are great for Corvette front suspensions (where it’s transverse mounted) since they only need to spring up and down. As a rear leaf spring in a car like your Camaro, the spring is subjected to lateral forces where it is not as strong.

Agreed! And as recommended to the OP earlier, a lateral locating device is highly recommended when using composite springs.

[BMR Tech]

What I would like to see someone do is use a set of composite leafs, Watts Link, and our Torque Arm (not the whole kit, just the torque arm). The Watts link would do a superior job of locating the rear and composite springs have much quicker reaction times than steel springs and lower unsprung weight. For traction issues and preventing spring wrap our Torque Arm is perfect for a composite spring because, unlike a traction bar, it doesn't load the front spring eye. Since it is centrally located and has bind-free articulation, the leaf spring would only have to support the car, the torque arm would handle the torque load. I would bet this setup coupled with a good set of dampers could rival any link style suspension out there...

http://www.bmrsuspension.com/siteart/products/TA003_large.jpg

[Mkelcy]

What I would like to see someone do is use a set of composite leafs, Watts Link, and our Torque Arm (not the whole kit, just the torque arm). The Watts link would do a superior job of locating the rear and composite springs have much quicker reaction times than steel springs and lower unsprung weight. For traction issues and preventing spring wrap our Torque Arm is perfect for a composite spring because, unlike a traction bar, it doesn't load the front spring eye. Since it is centrally located and has bind-free articulation, the leaf spring would only have to support the car, the torque arm would handle the torque load. I would bet this setup coupled with a good set of dampers could rival any link style suspension out there...

http://www.bmrsuspension.com/siteart/products/TA003_large.jpg

I'm happy to volunteer to try this out. :)

I've got a '67 Camaro that's got ATS tall spindles, SPC UCA and LCA, Hotchkis sway bar and Bilstein shocks on the front (no kits here), and will be getting Flex-a-Form composite leafs with custom swivel bushings (on hand), a Fays Watts link and Bilstein shocks on the rear.

The drive train will be a (roughly) 425-450RWHP LS1, Aftermarket T-56, and a 3.55:1, 12 Bolt rear (all on hand). Estimated completion is late this year or spring 2012.

With a good driver (clearly not me) it could be pretty quick.

[JKnight]

What would the cost be for just the torque arm components, roughly, and would it work with a Ford 9"?

I've been putting some miles on my setup with composites and a watt's link and my only lingering issues are what you mentioned, axle wrap and putting the power down.

[BMR Tech]

What would the cost be for just the torque arm components, roughly, and would it work with a Ford 9"?

I've been putting some miles on my setup with composites and a watt's link and my only lingering issues are what you mentioned, axle wrap and putting the power down.

We have torque arms available for the 10 and 12 bolts for $1k but only complete rear suspension kits w/housings for the 9". It's a simple install for the 10/12 bolt guys since the torque arm mounts to the differential cover with no welding or fabrication but our 9" kits require the use of our fixture welded 9" housing. We have had customers who wished to purchase all the bracketry to weld to their existing housings but we use Strange HD housings with a back brace and all of our bracketry is profiled for this specific housing. Unfortunately there is no torque arm available for the 9" without using the entire kit....

[Mkelcy]

We have torque arms available for the 10 and 12 bolts for $1k but only complete rear suspension kits w/housings for the 9". It's a simple install for the 10/12 bolt guys since the torque arm mounts to the differential cover with no welding or fabrication but our 9" kits require the use of our fixture welded 9" housing. We have had customers who wished to purchase all the bracketry to weld to their existing housings but we use Strange HD housings with a back brace and all of our bracketry is profiled for this specific housing. Unfortunately there is no torque arm available for the 9" without using the entire kit....

Does the front cross member for the torque arm mount at the rear body bushings on the subframe? If not, where does it land on the subframe?

Never mind, I kept reading and saw that the initial answer was "yes."

[Shmoov69]

Brett, I wouldve ran that exact setup had you made it a few years ago!! I ended up ditching my 'glass springs and a buddy and I fabbed up a complete TQ Arm rear suspension since none were avaliable.

Which brings me to the OP. I had the VB 'glass springs on my 69 since about '91 along with the rear sway bar. I ended up pulling them about 3-4 years ago because I wanted a "do all decent" suspension instead, which I think the TQ Arm does. I had zero problems with them and actually liked them. I think they would have done better with a watts or panhard to locate them since they did have quite a bit of side flex without. I had put over 100,000 miles on it in that time with them..still zero problems. Now, I never tracked the car, so I don't know how it would actually handle against real cars, but it did hold it's own on the street. I did the "no no's" with them also.....3" lowering blocks with the stock 10 bolt (blocks cracked) and 3 1/2" enlarged steel perches for the 9" rear when it went in....Zero problems. Also, the last 8 years or so with them it had twin turbos and made approx 550hp/650tq to the wheels and I took it to the strip on slicks regularly (11.0xx@125 and a 1.60 short time best)....zero problems.

I think that they will EITHER handle great OR dragstrip great....NOT both, which is what I wanted. That is why I changed, and am happy enough now!

Good luck!!

[Hotchkis]

With respect, Carl ran Flex-a-Form composite leaf springs with swivel bushings for (I think) at least five years before he recently swapped over to the Hotchkis springs and was pretty sucessful with that setup as well.

Most of us who run composite leafs have found that we can run higher springs rates with less relative degradation of ride when compared to steel springs.

MKelcy,
You’re absolutely correct, he was very successful with the composite springs, but he was willing to swap to a complete Hotchkis TVS for our R&D needs. With his new combination his Camaro took first place in the Autocross portion of the Super Chevy Magazine Suspension and Handling Challenge, getting great points for both ride comfort and handling.

[69MyWay]

VB&P is out of business. And...I have their composite springs on my 69 Camaro. The bushings on front and rear of the leaf springs are shot.

Any idea the size and or replacements?

I can tear it down and measure. But once I do the car is not moveable.

[Roberts68]

Not to cross post and link you to another forum... But I'm gonna.
I kind of doubt VBP made their own springs, I think they compiled their catalog from items sourced but it is just a hunch.
I have no personal experience with them but from research would recommend the spherical eye bushings. There are way more types in the market now which means they work, people are buying them and more are entering the market.

Have a look at this list. Someone should have dimensions that match yours. I'd get a feel for their tech support before you even measure yours.
https://www.pro-touring.com/archive/index.php/t-120012.html

[69MyWay]

Problem solved.

Energy suspension was able to cross over to a bushing they actually make for the Durango. I also found the springs had the wrong sized sleeves (all four were rears). Energy has the correct front ones.

Got it all installed. Man...smooth and quite. The vb&p bushings were just like a cast mold rubber. They just go away over time.