Run To The Coast 2 -- super cool video -- not with GPS track data!

[Steve1968LS2]

What a great day... no rain and although it was pretty damn cold it was still great. Worst part is that when it's cloudy I forget sunscreen.

David Pozzi and I are sharing Penny so she's getting a real workout. Did good on the damp autocross and on the big road course David is in 2nd (so far) with a 1:08.7 run (first place at this point is Ryan from DSE with a 1:08.3.

Late in the day Bill Howell came up and asked if Nathan could give a ride to a VIP from BFGoodrich in Penny around the track. Well, Nathan is a hell of driver and runs Orange County Racecraft. They give classes at El Toro and he's ran some pretty high end races. In short, he's very good behind the wheel.

Since I like to see my car get really driven I let them go. Well, Nathan tore it the f up.. I still need to download my Racepak data but he was screaming and turned in a best lap (of three) of 1:03.1 .. that's over 5 seconds faster than the previous fast lap. We all watch in amazement as he hazed the tires all the way down the main straight and made it through gates none of us thought he could make. It was epic and a blast to watch.

The downside is that since he pushed my car harder than ever we found that under crazy turning the front tires rub the inner wheelhouse on the outside edge.. this melted the PS2s and caused them to seperate the outer layer. They were flat spotted anyways so no huge loss and thanks to Matt Alcala and Jon of Driverz Inc I will back in business tomorrow. Sure it cost me a few hundred bucks in tires, but it was SOOO worth it and to be honest it make me pretty damn proud of my car.

So here's the video on youtube.. I'm not embedding it.. click the link and watch it in high-res full screen so you can see Nathan work the steering wheel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEsFj-ESgUw

And here's a shot of Nathan smoking the tires down the straight.. he seemed to like the power.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2eaidrr.jpg

[chaz75]

looks like he enjoyed your car alot but the question is did the vip soil himself during the run, love watching anyway thanks for posting. Chaz

[pokey64]

Thanks for posting Steve! Penny is looking great! :thumbsup:
Can't wait to see more pics, vids, and details about the event.

[Sieg]

Nice post Steve!

How are you going to handling the tire clearance issue?

[coolwelder62]

Steve it is great to see penny back in action.Thanks for for posting and letting the rest of us trapped in the dead of winter see what's going on in party sunny SoCal.:thumbsup: Scott

[slenning]

Man, Thanks a lot for posting that Steve. Very impressive:cheers: That sure gives us in the north an itch for winter to end so we can get our cars back out.

[ALLSPEED01]

Nice Video! I can't wait to see all the other action and results! Looks like a great time!

[waynieZ]

Awesome video Steve, thanks for posting. For a while there I was leaning into the corners as I watched. Penny runs Sweet! I went to see her at BOS in Jenuary 2010 and was very impressed. I wish I could see her on the corse in person.

[nvr2fst]

Very cool steve, you have to be stoked with that new RHS block. Seen your rundown build/dyno over at LS1tech Sweet!

[Tuske427]

I was there on Saturday- as a spectator. I took some pics and they are here at the link:


http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk73/Tuske427/RTTC%20El%20Toro%202011/

There was a lot of spinning out on the big track saturday morning due to the prior rain, so there was a lot of pink hat swapping early on(a fun gimmick they pass around to the latest person who spins out)

[Jr]

lil more video:
Ja4-PiV5v38

[Steve1968LS2]

Great video!

The new engine in Penny is great.. I had the second fasted top speed in that event at 96 mph.. I wonder what the distance was?

Kyle at DSE just edged me out at 97mph.. if I had know I would have stayed in it a couple of seconds more.. :) ... I know I could take him!!! :unibrow:

The going was much more fun than the stopping.. I need to hit a drag strip.

[6D9]

Great video!

The new engine in Penny is great.. I had the second fasted top speed in that event at 96 mph.. I wonder what the distance was?

Kyle at DSE just edged me out at 97mph.. if I had know I would have stayed in it a couple of seconds more.. :) ... I know I could take him!!! :unibrow:

The going was much more fun than the stopping.. I need to hit a drag strip.

Pennys new motor is sick!! I would love to see you take her to the drags. Some sticky drag radials should help get her kinda hooked up.

[chevyhector]

Vey cool ! My son, nephew and I had a blast ! THANKS BILL !!

[Rybar]

Wow, that is impressive. :wow: 5 seconds faster than the top time is amazing.

What were his impressions of the car?

[Steve1968LS2]

Wow, that is impressive. :wow: 5 seconds faster than the top time is amazing.

What were his impressions of the car?

At that time.. later Ryan of DSE nailed one run faster with a 1:02.8 -- when Nathan heard this he said he wanted the car back since he knew there was more in it.. I said one set of tires a weekend was all I could afford! lol

Nathan loved the car.. One comment was "this doesn't drive like an old car!" (I told him there's not much old left in it)... He also said he kept pushing harder thinking "it's going to break.. it's going to break" but it never did and he was truly shocked. He LOVED the power and how he could flat foot whenever he wanted.

Then he got into a wierd driver speak deal.. something about how when the car started to push he would just mash the gas and the back would plant down and then he would turn the wheel (to the direction he needed to go).. let off the gas a bit and the car would pivot in that direction. I'm not a good enough driver to really get what he was explaining. With a few more laps he knows it could go faster so I'm taking that as a big fat compliment.

Nathan and Ryan show what REALLY great drivers can do with really good cars.

[SLO_Z28]

1:02 is quick, what was the fast lap of the day?

[Moose]

Videos like these are why I spent a little extra so I can beat the piss out of it.. and if it breaks.. Fix it..

Awesome vids.:hail:

[Steve1968LS2]

1:02 is quick, what was the fast lap of the day?

Yea, Ryan had one lap that was just ON and he dipped into the 1:02.8 range.. Dave in my car ran a 1:07.0 and Finch ran a 106.8 I think.. Kyle was in the 104 or 105 range and there was a crazy vette there with good times. Speed tech did great with thier driver as well with a time in the low 1:03 range (now confired at 1:03 flat).

I don't have all the times yet.

I was happy with what Nathan did since he had never driven the car before that day.

[Steve1968LS2]

I downloaded the track data from Nathan's run... pretty cool stuff. He had consistent 1.3g turns and a spike of 1.54 without spinning. For reference I've never seen a number that high on my data logger. The BFG guy swears it hit 120something but the GPS data says just over 117. For comparison I hit 96 and Dave hit 111. I really like the 0.87g acceleration from a roll ;)

http://i52.tinypic.com/dcd7kk.jpg

[Vegas69]

He was hauling the mail and the car looked great. :thumbsup: You know the old saying, if you want to find out how fast your car really is...:D

Looks like I was hitting 110.xx according to my calculations. I was on the rev limiter(6800) in 3rd after the first set of cones. Should of put that 7k pill in the car.:lol:

[onevoice]

Then he got into a wierd driver speak deal.. something about how when the car started to push he would just mash the gas and the back would plant down and then he would turn the wheel (to the direction he needed to go).. let off the gas a bit and the car would pivot in that direction. I'm not a good enough driver to really get what he was explaining.



Transferring load to the rear tires can bring the fronts back up the traction curve, and enable them to have more lateral grip. A tire has increasing lateral grip with increasing vertical load, but not at a linear rate. It doesn't always work, especially with cars that dont have enough power to shift much load.

Seat time and experience rules.

[Steve1968LS2]

Transferring load to the rear tires can bring the fronts back up the traction curve, and enable them to have more lateral grip. A tire has increasing lateral grip with increasing vertical load, but not at a linear rate. It doesn't always work, especially with cars that dont have enough power to shift much load.

Seat time and experience rules.

Well, I seem to have enough power.. lol

Dave Pozzi said it was a quite a ride.. needed that helicopter chase cam to get the full effect. Nathan drove Rolex series cars, so he really knows how to bring it.

Next mod is to give my fronts more room to compress into. I also want to take out some roll, but I'm afraid of screwing up how the car is working. Right now the rear bar is disconnected and I have 500 front and 275 rear springs.

[Jr]

Well, I seem to have enough power.. lol

Dave Pozzi said it was a quite a ride.. needed that helicopter chase cam to get the full effect. Nathan drove Rolex series cars, so he really knows how to bring it.

Next mod is to give my fronts more room to compress into. I also want to take out some roll, but I'm afraid of screwing up how the car is working. Right now the rear bar is disconnected and I have 500 front and 275 rear springs.

What size tire are you running on the front? 275, 285, 295, 315?

[onevoice]

Next mod is to give my fronts more room to compress into. I also want to take out some roll, but I'm afraid of screwing up how the car is working. Right now the rear bar is disconnected and I have 500 front and 275 rear springs.

Body roll in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, it is the loss of control of wheel motion and transient behavior that is the problem. I have always thought BP looked undersprung in pictures, but you are bumping into the physics of the situation with regard to CG heights and wheel/ground clearance. Your spring rates are not excessively high now, it certainly wouldn't hurt to try upping them and seeing how it does.

[Steve1968LS2]

Body roll in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, it is the loss of control of wheel motion and transient behavior that is the problem. I have always thought BP looked undersprung in pictures, but you are bumping into the physics of the situation with regard to CG heights and wheel/ground clearance. Your spring rates are not excessively high now, it certainly wouldn't hurt to try upping them and seeing how it does.

No, body roll is fine.. well, obviously since the car sticks.. but I do find it a bit disconcerting (just need to get use to it)

The only problem I'm having is that the suspension is so compliant that the car rolls enough to cause the front tires to contact the inner wheelhouse and the frame/header get awfuly close to the ground. A little less roll wouldn't be bad along with a redesign of the front wheel wells..

I have 550 springs for the front.. and 310s for the rear, would that make any difference or do I need to make a bigger change?

[Steve1968LS2]

What size tire are you running on the front? 275, 285, 295, 315?

A 275/35/18 .. the tires on sat were the PS2 viper spec tires and the replacements were worn harder version PS2 tires.. You could really tell the difference in "stick" since we had a lot less bite.

I think I will up my neg camber closer to 2 .. it's at 1.5 right now.

[ccracin]

No, body roll is fine.. well, obviously since the car sticks.. but I do find it a bit disconcerting (just need to get use to it)

The only problem I'm having is that the suspension is so compliant that the car rolls enough to cause the front tires to contact the inner wheelhouse and the frame/header get awfuly close to the ground. A little less roll wouldn't be bad along with a redesign of the front wheel wells..

I have 550 springs for the front.. and 310s for the rear, would that make any difference or do I need to make a bigger change?

Steve,

The springs you have don't sound bad. You don't want to loose all the compliance as you will loose traction quicker when the road or track surface isn't optimum. Not to mention if you drop a wheel off in the corner or hit the curbing it can really upset the car. If I read right, you said the rear bar is disconnected. I'm not sure what bar you have on the front, but I would try a bigger bar on the front and connect your rear bar. This should help keep the balance and gain roll stiffness in the corner, but keep some of your compliance. Obviously, I don't know your exact specs or if you have these options, just a suggestion. Penny is looking really good! :cheers:

[Steve1968LS2]

Just for the record.. I deleted a bunch of crap that didn't pertain to the thread.. :)

This was about the exhibition video..not about event politics or results.

Having said that..

Congrats to Ryan at DSE for having the fast lap of the event
Congrats to Speedtech for winning the comp class of the road course
Contrats to TCI for winning the comp class of the speed/stop challenge

See, it's all puppies and rainbows now :D

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,

The springs you have don't sound bad. You don't want to loose all the compliance as you will loose traction quicker when the road or track surface isn't optimum. Not to mention if you drop a wheel off in the corner or hit the curbing it can really upset the car. If I read right, you said the rear bar is disconnected. I'm not sure what bar you have on the front, but I would try a bigger bar on the front and connect your rear bar. This should help keep the balance and gain roll stiffness in the corner, but keep some of your compliance. Obviously, I don't know your exact specs or if you have these options, just a suggestion. Penny is looking really good! :cheers:

Im worried that lessing the roll will lessen compliance and grip.. this stuff is COMPLICATED!!! :willy:

[Chad-1stGen]

Man that race pack data stuff is super cool. I'm afraid to look up the price on something like that lol.

[Steve1968LS2]

Man that race pack data stuff is super cool. I'm afraid to look up the price on something like that lol.

Like $800 bucks or so... It really will help you be faster and it doesn't like like the the "I think I hit 140 on the straight" deal when in fact you were in the 120s.. lol

I think they might have less expensive sytems without the display.. check the Rackpak site.

[Gandalf]

He was hauling the mail and the car looked great. :thumbsup: You know the old saying, if you want to find out how fast your car really is...:D

Looks like I was hitting 110.xx according to my calculations. I was on the rev limiter(6800) in 3rd after the first set of cones. Should of put that 7k pill in the car.:lol:

Yeah - that last run of the day in Penny on Saturday was the absolute highlight of the weekend for me - he beat the living snot out of that car and it was a sight to behold. Ok, two dead tires but to look under that hood after the run and see not one drip/leak or anything broke was just, well, er, wrong somehow. To hear the brakes cooling off after that run was kinda scary - but I guess that's how the big guys roll LOL!

Watching DSE's Ryan and Kyle drive like they stole those test cars all weekend was awesome too. Watching them tweak tire pressures, shock settings and refining their lines on both the road-coarse and the autocross was awesome. And sorry guys but definitely the two best sounding LS powered cars out there this weekend - hands-down.

Also noteable was the very understated SpeedTech Nova driven exceptionally well on the roadcorse - one of a handful able to really thread that car through the chicane on the front straight at speed on Saturday, without drama.

And then there's Todd..... there's just always something very poetic about watching you go out and beat on your car with that big-block under the hood. Looks like balls - sounds like balls - love the car! It was awesome watching you run the roadcoarse and really stretching her legs Todd - well done man!

My 2c,
G.

[ccracin]

Im worried that lessing the roll will lessen compliance and grip.. this stuff is COMPLICATED!!! :willy:


Yes it is Complicated! My suggestions are from my experiences with circle track racing. Increasing the roll stiffness with the bars will help you maintain grip and compliance while decreasing your roll angle. Not hard to try if the correct bars are available. Good luck.:thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

Yes it is Complicated! My suggestions are from my experiences with circle track racing. Increasing the roll stiffness with the bars will help you maintain grip and compliance while decreasing your roll angle. Not hard to try if the correct bars are available. Good luck.:thumbsup:

I was talking with Doug at Global West and he thinks Im having a high-speed roll issue and not a low speed roll issue.. For high speed he thinks upping the front spring rate a touch would help.

Maybe a bit more camber for bite on the the tight autocross stuff.

Hopefully I didn't screw up what he said in translation.. Anyways, we have ideas to less the roll a little bit without huring bite.

[David Pozzi]

Some time ago we reduced roll to a tolerable point by adding the rear bar, but then Penny wouldn't put the power down very well, and what was neutral handling at small throttle openings, was a tail wagger when on the gas coming out of a turn. Pulling the rear bar and adding rear shock resistance helped forward traction tremendously. But now it's rolling too much and we never did optimise the front end geometry. Neg camber is conservative at 1.5 or 2 deg and we never have measured front camber gain or roll center. There are options to increase neg camber gain.

The front end just can't handle the added load of no rear bar. - Hammering the gas helps rotate the car by unweighting the front a little, and giving the rear tires two jobs, 1. cornering, 2. accelerating, this helps reduce rear traction to the point where the car is able to turn in a balanced mode, but at some point you have to let off the gas and if you are not finished turning, the car will push. Nate did a heck of a job managing this and getting the car to turn under very heavy throttle application.

Lifting the inside front wheel means the front is much stiffer in roll than the rear, - and overloaded. The rear shocks are giving you just enough added roll stiffness to the rear to allow you to turn the car into the corner, but once roll is over the rear shocks are done helping and it's back to understeer mode and the car goes back to understeer.

An easy thing to do is raise the rear watts to get the rear to handle more of the cornering load and reduce roll angle. It's not a big help however but a step in the right direction. I'd like to try and keep the rear bar disconnected and try further shock adjustments, but the rear bar may need to be used at a soft setting to help the roll issue.

I'd like to see the front lift more when on the gas, it' doesn't seem to now and I think it's hurting rear tire plant and traction. I need to see some pics to verify this. I don't recall ever seeing a pic of Penny with the front end elevated under power.

The front shocks have loads of adjustment we haven't even tried yet, maybe a softer rebound setting. As horsepower goes up, things have to change to try and make use of it.
David

[Steve1968LS2]

Well, I think the front side lifted because the other side was jammed into the wheelwell.. possible?

Hellwig has offered to make me a custom bar however we want it.. so we can have even softer settings than we do now.. thoughts?

And yea, we haven't messed with even half of the stuff.. UCA offset slugs, shock settings, bar settings.. Now that the powerplant is finalized we can dial in the rest.

Oh, front neg camber is 1.5ish.. we can flip the dogbones for another degree and then shim back to what we want. No need to go crazy since my solid bushings mean zero deflection so it is what it is all the time.

A stiffer bar with these shock settings killed me at Optima...

I surround myself with smart people so I'm sure this will get figured out. lol

[j-rho]

Even with a great suspension setup, there will be limits to the amount of power a pair of tires can put down in a straight line. With huge power levels, you may have to accept that full throttle won't always be possible in the lower gears. I've driven an SCCA National-Championship winning SM2 Corvette, making less power than some of these Camaros, where even with super-sticky 335 Kumho V710s, we could sometimes never once use full throttle on course. Sure, the car could have received setup changes to help it put power down better, but that would have made it slower through the sweepers, and slower overall. Sometimes it's the throttle foot and not the car that needs adjustment.

Still think somebody needs to put their engine in the back seat, given the complete rule-lessness of these endeavors. The Camaro is always going to be handicapped by its static weight distribution, carbon fiber this-or-that regardless. Get the thing under 45% front static weight and you're getting somewhere.

As for setup, the balance, or change, that works for the guy running within a few tenths of the car's potential may not be the right change for the guy running 6-7 seconds below its potential. In general the quickest drivers fear understeer more than oversteer, while beginners to intermediate drivers have the opposite perspective. No offense to any driver or owner intended. Every setup is a compromise in some way, it's up to the tuner to choose the right (fastest) compromise for that driver on that track on that day.

A completely unloaded inside front tire is ok around peak vector accel at corner exit - any weight left on that inside front tire, could have been back on the inside rear, helping put power down. Of course, if the car is pushing, you want to keep the inside front down. 275 front tire on cars with this much front weight just isn't going to be ideal. With pretty much every one of these P-T cars I've seen, some wide fenders with 315s (or more) up front will be more helpful than anything else you can do. But that's the racer in me talking and I know you guys stay worried about having to make 3-point turns.

Steve, as applies to data acquisition, there are some texts out there on the subject, explaining well how to use it to get faster. In short, you shouldn't be looking just at peak g's or top speeds (though those can be useful at times). Instead, break the lap down into a few sectors (start/finish and each braking point make good sector delineators) and compare each driver's sector times. Tying the data acquisition system into throttle position sensor and RPM can be very helpful (as can steering wheel, brake pedal, or suspension position sensors, down the road). You want to be trying to understand what combination of driver inputs and car positioning, produced the best sector time output. Of course a lot of going fast is gaining the feel and the car control skills, but once you're a ways along that road, you'll find the fast guy isn't faster because he generated higher peak (or even average) lateral g's; it'll be because he positioned the car better, maintained more speed through transitions, was smoother in execution, etc. His crazy-high straightaway top speed isn't because he found a magic NOS button, it's because he set up the exit of the preceding corner in a way that allowed for earlier hard throttle application.

A good data logger is a fantastic way to capture the magic of any star driver you can get into your car. With a good breakdown you may find you're actually doing some things just as well as the best, but that there's other areas, ones you might have actually thought were ok, where you actually need improvement. The data acquisition used well can be a tremendous tool in focusing driver development. I also recommend keeping things to autocross-speed events, so "cajones" do not weigh in as a factor.

Can't wait to get my car finished and get out there to play with you guys. Hope RTTC 3 is as good an event as the first two. :cheers:

[Steve1968LS2]

Well, that's my problem.. I have great car control, but I'm the suck when it comes to finding a smooth (ie, the right) line on a road course... going only 2-3 times a year doesn't help. lol

That's why I always enjoy great drivers piloting my car.. to find the flawas and help make it better. After all I'm in this for the car tinkering, not to become Michale Schumacher.. :)

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
You have great car control. You proved that at spring mountain last year! I hope the Optima tv show has some of it.
David

[Chad-1stGen]

Like $800 bucks or so... It really will help you be faster and it doesn't like like the the "I think I hit 140 on the straight" deal when in fact you were in the 120s.. lol

I think they might have less expensive sytems without the display.. check the Rackpak site.

It just occured to me there are probably apps out there for the Iphone 4 with its GPS and accurate accelerometer that can possibly give me a taste of what its like. I'm off to do some searches lol.

[Steve1968LS2]

It just occured to me there are probably apps out there for the Iphone 4 with its GPS and accurate accelerometer that can possibly give me a taste of what its like. I'm off to do some searches lol.

Yea, I have one called G-Force.. it's pretty good at giving peak g's

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
You have great car control. You proved that at spring mountain last year! I hope the Optima tv show has some of it.
David

It's in the preview so I'm pretty sure it's in the show..

I was really off my game this weekend.. couldn't get in the groove.

[David Pozzi]

Well, I think the front side lifted because the other side was jammed into the wheelwell.. possible?

Hellwig has offered to make me a custom bar however we want it.. so we can have even softer settings than we do now.. thoughts?

And yea, we haven't messed with even half of the stuff.. UCA offset slugs, shock settings, bar settings.. Now that the powerplant is finalized we can dial in the rest.

Oh, front neg camber is 1.5ish.. we can flip the dogbones for another degree and then shim back to what we want. No need to go crazy since my solid bushings mean zero deflection so it is what it is all the time.

A stiffer bar with these shock settings killed me at Optima...

I surround myself with smart people so I'm sure this will get figured out. lol

Steve,
I think the current bar will go soft enough, I'd raise the watts one hole, and soften front shock rebound. We really need to run some events or test days and make adjustments. - More neg camber plus lowering the inner pivot "slugs" on the frame for the upper A arms should help neg camber gain a lot.

The brake chatter went away after a few hard stops. I think it was pad material pickup on the rotors that finally got scrubbed off.
David