Question for our metal fabricators!!!

[DOOM]

I would like to know the ''KEY'' to this type of weld. Is it metal thickness,welder settings, technique,mig ,tig ?????? I have really been struggling with this and I'm at wits end. I have to do some work to my outter wheel wells and I'm not at all happy with the final result. I need to get this dialed in so any pointers would really help. I used Jasons car (WAR) as an example of the type weld I'm struggling with..... My welders are Miller 210 mig Lincoln 110 mig I do have a new Hobart Tig but I have no Idea how to use it yet......

[NsaneHotrodz]

Fit up is the start, get it lined up perfect! Sheetmetal clamps help alot too. Mig works for me. If you have any questions feel free to call. DeWayne

[bdahlg68]

I would like to know the ''KEY'' to this type of weld. Is it metal thickness,welder settings, technique,mig ,tig ?????? I have really been struggling with this and I'm at wits end. I have to do some work to my outter wheel wells and I'm not at all happy with the final result. I need to get this dialed in so any pointers would really help. I used Jasons car (WAR) as an example of the type weld I'm struggling with..... My welders are Miller 210 mig Lincoln 110 mig I do have a new Hobart Tig but I have no Idea how to use it yet......

This type of welding is driving me nuts too. I have a flux core mig and it just seems to blast through the metal even on a low setting. I gave up for the day and will probably end up replacing the part I was trying to salvage. I figure by the end of the project I'll be a novice sheet metal welder.

One thing that did help a little is making sure I try to keep a shallow angle between the MIG tip and the metal to be welded. If that angle gets too steep, it seems to just blast through the metal. Just an observation on my side but I'm a beginner.

[elitecustombody]

Once you have the gas/wire speed/heat setting dialed in and butted panels have small gap,it should come out like you want ,has worked for me. Obviously you will need correct size wire for thick/thin steel

Though there is a noticable difference between machines,you still should be able to manage to get a good weld. I've had a Miller for about 13-15 years of dependable service,it finally gave up and needed some sort of switch ,so I retired it and replaced it with my back up Lincoln welder ,which had better penetration,overall cleaner,smoother welds,but after couple months of use I decided to get Hobart because Lincoln kept acting up,wire kept slipping,getting stuck,I called independent repair shop and the tech told me to buy Miller or Hobart,because they very rarely come in for service,but always fix Lincolns, so I will never buy another Lincoln.

[NsaneHotrodz]

I use a Miller 210 for almost everything with .030" wire.

[MoparCar]

I also use a Miller 210. I use .023 wire for sheet metal and .030 for heavier items. Gas for everything. Adjust your gas flow and play around with the heat and wire speeds. The chart on the machine isn't alway nuts on. For plug welds I usually adjust the machine up to the next thicker gauge of metal, so if it's really 20g I'll go 18g etc. I little hotter.

Make sure the area is ground bare and clean it if you need nice welds.

If the gap is too big it is easy to burn through. Like others have said take your time to "fit" the metal and gaps.

Wes

[The WidowMaker]

I also use a Miller 210. I use .023 wire for sheet metal and .030 for heavier items. Gas for everything. Adjust your gas flow and play around with the heat and wire speeds. The chart on the machine isn't alway nuts on. For plug welds I usually adjust the machine up to the next thicker gauge of metal, so if it's really 20g I'll go 18g etc. I little hotter.


same here, except i get lazy and hate changing wire so small sheet metal projects get .030. if i know im doing a lot, i usually change to the .023.

i love my 210, but now wish i would have spent the extra for the 251. there are projects where i need the 2.5 tap which doesnt exist.

[Musclerodz]

What you are looking at is a mig or tig tack then ground. I mig tack in place, and then tig if sheetmetal as in the pic.

[GregWeld]

Mario --


Welding has very little to do with the "machine" and very much to do with the operator... It's like a golf swing -- if you suck -- no amount of money spent on clubs will help. If you're good - you can hit any club. Having said that there are a few things that you can do to help.

CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN not only the side you can see - but the back side too! CLEAN!

Fit up is critical! Poor fitting pieces are a nightmare and the increase in skill required to weld them increases exponentially!

When tacking - I snip the wire at an angle - like 45* This make a good initial contact and actually takes less voltage to get the weld started. It also makes the tack with pure clean fill metal. I snip - tack - snip - tack.... Wire is CHEAP. Watch your "stick out" - tacking is best done (for me) with a little shorter stick out than if I'm running a bead...

I like to tack CORNERS first. Heat runs to the corners... and by the time you get there - they're already way hotter and tend to just blow.... So I go all the corners - then the middle of the piece centered between the corners so the metal doesn't start to bow or warp.... cooling as I go -- then in between each of those tacks until I'm down to an inch between tacks or less....

TACKING is one of those things where you really really need to be able to SEE!! If you can't see your work and see exactly where your tack is going and what is happening to the metal then it's hard to do. Once you're really good at welding - then you don't even need to look - but until then you need to be able to really see your weld! Play with the darkness of your helmet. Too dark and you can't see and too light and you're seeing spots all day! LOL.
Practice these settings on scrap at the wire feed and settings you're going to use to do your work.

I usually angle my MIG wire at the BIG PIECE of the work -- rather than trying to aim for the gap... the big piece is more "solid" and usually your GROUND is connected to the big work... so your tack will get off quicker -- and the puddle will gap over to the edge of the filler piece... if that makes sense...

I MIG Tack and TIG to fill the gaps -- because grinding TIG fill rod is far easier! But TIG takes far more skill so just figure you'll have to be careful grinding... :_paranoid TIG can also be hammer and dollied to flatten and control the warpage and the amount of grinding required.... and MIG wire is just too hard to do that with.

Tacking is all about heat control and most "newbs" I've tried to teach are just on the weld too long so they burn thru.... It's kind of a timing issue... and just takes a bit to master but it's not hard that's for sure. If I can do it - you sure as heck can!
:thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

This type of welding is driving me nuts too. I have a flux core mig and it just seems to blast through the metal even on a low setting. I gave up for the day and will probably end up replacing the part I was trying to salvage. I figure by the end of the project I'll be a novice sheet metal welder.

One thing that did help a little is making sure I try to keep a shallow angle between the MIG tip and the metal to be welded. If that angle gets too steep, it seems to just blast through the metal. Just an observation on my side but I'm a beginner.

Dude! There is only one thing to say here - and it's not meant to hurt your feelings -- but FLUX CORE is for farmers repairing tractors in a field where carting gas out there is too much of a chore. Stop using FLUX CORE to do car repair welding unless you're just welding up a jalopy frame.

[bdahlg68]

Dude! There is only one thing to say here - and it's not meant to hurt your feelings -- but FLUX CORE is for farmers repairing tractors in a field where carting gas out there is too much of a chore. Stop using FLUX CORE to do car repair welding unless you're just welding up a jalopy frame.

I'm aware and I will stop once able. No worries. :thumbsup:

[redfire69]

I'm no expert, but flux core can weld fine for beginners. Not all of us can buy all the best tools at one time. You'll find you can weld thinner materials easier when you switch to the bottle. :cheers:

[wiedemab]

Hopefully, not too much of a hi- jack....if so, please disregard.

I have also done the mig to tack, then tig to fill in with good results. As Greg said the ability to more easily grind the tig filler and hammer and dolly it helps a ton. I'm very far from great at this BTW, but I try.

Has anyone used "ez grind" mig wire before? I haven't, but am curious about it. It supposedly has properties closer to the tig weld for grinding and hammer and dolly work.

Oh and fit up, fit up, fit up is huge........i struggle sometimes to pitch a patch in the trash, but if it isn't right......do it and make one that fits right. You will be better off in the end.

[Sieg]

How does Lincoln's Superarc L-56 wire perform in the OP's situation?

[GregWeld]

I'm aware and I will stop once able. No worries. :thumbsup:

Some folks aren't aware of the limits of flux core -- so I'm glad you are. I know it's an extra expense etc to go gas --- but is truly worth it. Flux core is just kind of a crude way to try to do thin materials that hot rodders have to work on. :cheers:

[Musclerodz]

Some folks aren't aware of the limits of flux core -- so I'm glad you are. I know it's an extra expense etc to go gas --- but is truly worth it. Flux core is just kind of a crude way to try to do thin materials that hot rodders have to work on. :cheers:
Bottle lease and gas is cheap. I own my bottles, but that also limits who will fill them for me.

[MoparCar]

Dude! There is only one thing to say here - and it's not meant to hurt your feelings -- but FLUX CORE is for farmers repairing tractors in a field where carting gas out there is too much of a chore. Stop using FLUX CORE to do car repair welding unless you're just welding up a jalopy frame.

LOL but I so agree. Get the gas and get to welding some nice stuff!!!
Wes

[DEIGuy38]

Has anyone used "ez grind" mig wire before? I haven't, but am curious about it. It supposedly has properties closer to the tig weld for grinding and hammer and dolly work.

I am using the ESAB ez grind. It does seem a little easier to work with than standard mig wire. I found out about it from a fabricator at a rod shop.

[DOOM]

Talked to Jason (WAR) yesterday and he set me straight. I was making MANY mistakes. But he has me dialed in now, so it should go a little smoother . Will see, if not he's getting a plane ticket real soon!!!:D

[GregWeld]

Talked to Jason (WAR) yesterday and he set me straight. I was making MANY mistakes. But he has me dialed in now, so it should go a little smoother . Will see, if not he's getting a plane ticket real soon!!!:D

Good to hear buddy!

It is one of those "ah ha" moments when all finally goes as it should.... and then you're off and running! Today a patch panel - tomorrow an entire tube chassis!
:rofl:

[DOOM]

Good to hear buddy!

It is one of those "ah ha" moments when all finally goes as it should.... and then you're off and running! Today a patch panel - tomorrow an entire tube chassis!
:rofl:

Ya..... All I have to do is apply it now Greg!!:D

[bdahlg68]

Talked to Jason (WAR) yesterday and he set me straight. I was making MANY mistakes. But he has me dialed in now, so it should go a little smoother . Will see, if not he's getting a plane ticket real soon!!!:D

Any tips for the rest of us newbies?

[DRJDVM's '69]

I'm always looking to learn some tips and tricks....dont be shy Mario....

[DOOM]

Well my mistakes were numerous! First the wire I'm using is .35 I had to change that to .23. My gas preasure was to hi I had it at 40 brought it down to 20. I also learned.... SLOW DOWN and keep everthing cool, very important.. Jason also told me that he prefers not to but the metal up to tight he likes to leave a little gap. It gives the metal a little room to move around. I will start with the recomended settings on the machine and then adjust from there. I was all over the place with my wire speed and voltage. Make sure you can see what your welding!!! This is one of MY biggest problems, it sounds crazy but it sure does make a difference I tried it a little yesterday. Bought some new lights and man I can see!!!! Then we got into grinding the welds and I never thought of this. Jason uses a angle grinder with a cut off wheel instead of a grinding disc to first grind his welds. This knocks down the high spots of the weld with out thinning the surrounding metal. A big problem I was having,as I was grinding the weld to knock it down I was thinning the metal around it so when I wanted to fill a little spot I would blow right through and then start wandering all over the place chasing the holes I kept making. Next thing you know I have this big blob of sh^t . Now I have more of a mess!! I really liked this tip from Jason I think this is going to help me alot.. This may be basic stuff for alot of you guys,but it really set me straight and gave me direction instead of being all over the place. I have a starting point now. Now its up to me. I can't say enuff about Jason he was a huge help to me.

[bdahlg68]

Awesome! THanks for taking the time to summarize!

[War]

Mario, to clarify, I do fit up everything tight, Tig Or Mig. Fit up and lots of tacks as you go so the two planes of the metal are perfect and hold dimension is the most important thing. I said I like to tig everything and hammer and dollie the weld as I go. If you don't the heat and cooling will draw them together and start warping panels. Thats why you need to stretch the metal. But,If you can't tig or just have a Mig It can be done. You want to set the machine as low as you can but still get a good bead and penetration. And I don't mean pull the trigger and take off. On off on off and cool the weld. Trigger in the right hand blower in the left. If you start with a gap and just start tacking away the cooling will just draw the part closer as you move down the piece. Just try to fit it tight and lightly score it with the edge of your cut off wheel after it's tacked up if you need to . If your blowing through it's to hot or your torch angle or approach to the weld is wrong. If it bird turd and poor penetration it's to cold. I found you can get good results with the mig if thats all you have but the welds will be more brittle to hammer and dollie. A good 110 mig and 023 wire (no flux core)is all you need. Those 180's and 210's are just to big for light gauge work, they like alot of heat to work.

The mandrels you want to use are the Matco part #HMANF15.

Hope this helps. Don't know if info is right or wrong but works for me.

[DOOM]

I did'nt have my notes.:_paranoid I was just going to change that. I think your results speak for them self Jason:wow:

[ironworks]

These pictures from Tyler's 50/50 car might give you some idea of how it is done. The fit is CRUCIAL for Tig welding. You cannot get great results with a Mig. You can do OK, but not what you can with a Tig. The fit up is super important. Then you need an air hose and and lots of patience.

Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice..... You can always improve
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Project%2050-50/ShopPicsDecember2010002-1.jpg
super cool-whiz-bang- Michelin slicks. Rims are ugly though.
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Project%2050-50/ShopPicsDecember2010001-1.jpg
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Project%2050-50/ShopPicsDecember2010003-2.jpg
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Project%2050-50/ShopPicsDecember2010004-2.jpg
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Project%2050-50/ShopPicsDecember2010005-2.jpg
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Project%2050-50/ShopPicsDecember2010006-2.jpg
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Project%2050-50/ShopPicsDecember2010007-1.jpg

[DRJDVM's '69]

As for a gap.... I was told that with MIG you should have a gap about the same size as the wire diameter....always seemed a tad wide to me.... I try to shoot a bit less than that.....

So for MIG stuff....when do you hammer and dolly it? say you are doing a square patch panel 6 x 6 inches..... do 4-5 tacks per side and then hammer and dolly?....do you grind down those first tacks before you do it? hammer and dolly direct on the welds....all along the edges? work from the middle and work out.....I dont have much experiecne on the hammer and dolly stuff....

[GregWeld]

As for a gap.... I was told that with MIG you should have a gap about the same size as the wire diameter....always seemed a tad wide to me.... I try to shoot a bit less than that.....

So for MIG stuff....when do you hammer and dolly it? say you are doing a square patch panel 6 x 6 inches..... do 4-5 tacks per side and then hammer and dolly?....do you grind down those first tacks before you do it? hammer and dolly direct on the welds....all along the edges? work from the middle and work out.....I dont have much experiecne on the hammer and dolly stuff....


Ned ---

Nobody hammer and dollies MIG... it's too hard. You end up just wrecking a perfectly good body hammer. LOL

If you do this -- you have to be QUICK -- weld an inch - drop the torch - grab the hammer and dolly and work the weld flat. The dolly is an "anvil". Doing this wrong and the metal grows and you have warpage... hot metal tends to be more pliable... it's why we heat stuff cherry red to bend it etc... when you apply this principle to thin sheet -- it becomes an "art form".

It's a skill that needs to be "acquired"... ya have to mess up a few panels and have someone with you to show you how it should be done.

It's like grinding welds.... there are some that can see what they're doing and only knock the weld down -- and others that just run the grinder and end up with a places the thickness of tinfoil... they just don't know it. LOL

Funny about this hobby.... it actually takes some skill to do some of these things and we all - including me - want to be fabricators - welders - suspension engineers - engine builders... and do all of this one hour per week with no prior experience. <belly laugh inserted here>

Try long enough - and you can get the hang of it. That's why it's a great hobby!

I'm saying this not because I can actually DO any of it -- I'm saying it because I've tried and failed enough to know some of the pitfalls and the learning curve can be quite steep. I only wish I could be a clone of Tim... or others here. It's why I keep telling the shops "I'll work for free - I'll sweep the floors - just so I can hang out and learn some of this stuff". So far... no takers. They seem to be smarter than that. :faint:

[rwhite692]

I shoot for almost no significant gap when making patch / filler panels...Maybe .010" all around... You just don't want the filler piece to be tight in the hole when "cold", since it can bind/distort when it expands when you start welding on it...

You also want to dial in your heat and wire feed such that your weld bead lays out almost flat, as opposed to being a big "log" of welding wire bead that is sitting way up high that you will have to grind a lot down. As GW already said you don't want to be trying to hammer and dolly to manipulate weld sites.

To avoid distortion make many small tacks to get things in position, carefully grind those tacks flush, then clean all of it and prepare for the actual welding...Do about an inch of bead length at a time, let it cool, keep a wet rag nearby to help cool off the nearby areas...

[rwhite692]

First the wire I'm using is .35 I had to change that to .23. My gas preasure was to hi I had it at 40 brought it down to 20....


.023" wire all the way... That one change will probably be the biggest help... You also probably only need between 12-15 CFH on your shielding gas. You only need enough to create the shielding environment, no more than that.

[DOOM]

Thanx for all the input guys!!!!! I have a LOOOONG road ahead of me so I really need to get this right.

[Reckley]

These pictures from Tyler's 50/50 car might give you some idea of how it is done. The fit is CRUCIAL for Tig welding. You cannot get great results with a Mig. You can do OK, but not what you can with a Tig. The fit up is super important. Then you need an air hose and and lots of patience.

I couldn't agree more. I've tried both Mig and Tig many times and the Tig is simply the best for this. Cooling the tacks with the air hose helps greatly as well.

Mike

[SuperB70]

Everything that has been sad here about purity, tight caps and useing tig is 100% true.
But if you still do burn it through with mig, this is the tool/ a way that will rescue you.

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_7944.jpg

Put this flatly and tightly behind your coming big cap weld and tack. Maeby little longer that normal, you need more stuff cos bigger cap. You just have to practice how to use it.
If and when it burn through molten weld will be flatten in the surface of the copper and sence mig welds wount stick on copper, it will spread around and stick arounding sheetmetal edges and you will be saved. And sence copper is good sucking heat it will cool the weld after as well.

You can weld up big caps and grind them flat after.

Or you can use a piece of aluminium flat or block for withdrawing heat from welds. They work also. If you have a straight edge block of Al, you can use it as welding helpper for 90' angle and heat remover.

Again, this is not the way you want to do it, put its the way you can save stuff when you screw them up.

As myself, I havent never ever needed to use this.:lol: I have heard all this from a friend ;) ,have not :lol: :lol:

For cooling welds, I have use this kind of simple but effective device:
Take a normal (coke) bottle, 0.5 litre is just fine.
Take the cap and drill a hole on the top of it, just little pit smaller that the hole in the bottle it self.
Then put a piece of fabric, welding blanket or something that is not likely to set on fire or melt instantly when comes contacting hot weld.
Fill the bottle with cold water and screw the modified cap on. Now you got a welding cooler ready.

Put a tack and with other hand press the bottle (cap first) on that tack and squeeze a bit, cool water will cooled to spot and no excess water all over workplace and yourself.

[speedfreak]

[QUOTE=ironworks;326384]These pictures from Tyler's 50/50 car might give you some idea of how it is done. The fit is CRUCIAL for Tig welding. You cannot get great results with a Mig. You can do OK, but not what you can with a Tig. The fit up is super important. Then you need an air hose and and lots of patience.

Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice..... You can always improve


What rod are you guys using for this ?

Thanks,
Brian

[DOOM]

[QUOTE=ironworks;326384]These pictures from Tyler's 50/50 car might give you some idea of how it is done. The fit is CRUCIAL for Tig welding. You cannot get great results with a Mig. You can do OK, but not what you can with a Tig. The fit up is super important. Then you need an air hose and and lots of patience.

Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice..... You can always improve


What rod are you guys using for this ?

Thanks,
Brian

I'm learning that you have to get the metal as tight as possible. I found this out real fast. You try and fill gaps with the mig and you always wind up with small pin holes from a hot edge. I'm on my third set of wheel house's I better learn this fast its getting expensive! I have a new tig but I'm not even thinking of pulling this out until I learn how to get this mig thing figured out....

[GregWeld]

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_7944.jpg


I've made these for years - but I use copper plate (thin) which you can just cut or bend to your need -- or I smash the end of a piece of copper pipe. Not having a handle that is at a preset angle and length, is handier for me than a tool like this. Works the same either way -- there's just handier "versions" getting the same job done.

Once you really have a handle on welding you find you don't need this kind of stuff 98% of the time I can buzz a hole up without this aid... but these kinds of tools (homemade or otherwise)... can help a guy out in a hurry.

If you're by yourself -- a small piece of copper just snipped off a sheet - can be held in place using a magnet spanning the copper (since copper isn't magnetic) as a backer... Finding something - or someone - to hold this tool takes more time than my quickie fix. LOL That has worked for me if I'm trying to slick a firewall where your arms won't quite get there from here. :_paranoid and the area you're plugging is too small to make a fill piece.

[SuperB70]

GregWeld, your right on the money.
This is a handy tool if you weld some thin or damaged material.
Sure it can be duss hole close but this do it faster and most important that this draw a lot of heat away.

I also use a piece of coppertubing, 1/2" hammered the other end flat and have bendet to fit what every I do with it.

I have seen somebody to use those hold-down toggle clamps combined with a piece of copper tin for one mans working.

Again, I'm not a pro just a everyday welder how wants to get better doing it.

[ironworks]

[QUOTE=speedfreak;330743]

I'm learning that you have to get the metal as tight as possible. I found this out real fast. You try and fill gaps with the mig and you always wind up with small pin holes from a hot edge. I'm on my third set of wheel house's I better learn this fast its getting expensive! I have a new tig but I'm not even thinking of pulling this out until I learn how to get this mig thing figured out....

Honestly, Trying to get it figured out with a MIG is totally different then a TIG. If you scribe tight light to trim and fit you can tack it up with the MIG. But learning how to weld sheetmetal is like trying to learn how to ride a bicycle when you want to ride a unicycyle. Just start now with the tig on 20amps and maybe buy some MIG wire to not build up your welds to much while your learning. The TIG welders out number MIG welders 5-2 in my shop and all my MIG welders are 110 volt except 1. I have 1 220 volt MIG.

Spend your time learning how to trim and fit sheetmetal very tight. Then learn to tack with the TIG.

Learn to cut gap and fit like this
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Top%20Secret%20Camaro/ShopPicsFebuary2011010.jpg
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Top%20Secret%20Camaro/ShopPicsFebuary2011014.jpg
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Top%20Secret%20Camaro/ShopPicsFebuary2011015.jpg

[GregWeld]

So.... looking at the HAZ on the fresh weld... it appears to be a series of smallish half inchers... More than a 'tack' but not a complete run either?

Did the welder (as in person not machine) skip and fill or just choose to weld small runs cooling as they went? Or?

We had some discussion about this at dinner but didn't follow up (my A.D.D. probably kicked in).

[DOOM]

Honestly, Trying to get it figured out with a MIG is totally different then a TIG. If you scribe tight light to trim and fit you can tack it up with the MIG. But learning how to weld sheetmetal is like trying to learn how to ride a bicycle when you want to ride a unicycyle. Just start now with the tig on 20amps and maybe buy some MIG wire to not build up your welds to much while your learning. The TIG welders out number MIG welders 5-2 in my shop and all my MIG welders are 110 volt except 1. I have 1 220 volt MIG.

Spend your time learning how to trim and fit sheetmetal very tight. Then learn to tack with the TIG.

Thanx for the pictures Roger!! I been avoiding my tig welder but I know its time to pull it out and start learning. It's a Hobart EZ-TIG 165i I figured this would be a simple machine to start with. I have spent more time fitting and it does make a big difference...

[ironworks]

Thanx for the pictures Roger!! I been avoiding my tig welder but I know its time to pull it out and start learning. It's a Hobart EZ-TIG 165i I figured this would be a simple machine to start with. I have spent more time fitting and it does make a big difference...

Just buy some flat sheet (18gauge) cut some strips and weld it back together. If yo ever want to be the internet superstar Jason (WAR) #9 is, you will have to become one with you TIG. Cut and fit, tack it together, and weld little bits. Weld about aninch and cool it with the Air hose. Weld another inch, then cool it. Repeat this process for about 12-16 inches. Then sand just the weld smooth not the base metal. Maybe use a die grinder wheel to knock the top off.


This thread makes me think we should offer a class or seminar for this skill. It's not hard, but just takes practice and experience. But having some weekend guidance would good.

[GregWeld]

Just buy some flat sheet (18gauge) cut some strips and weld it back together. If yo ever want to be the internet superstar Jason (WAR) #9 is, you will have to become one with you TIG. Cut and fit, tack it together, and weld little bits. Weld about aninch and cool it with the Air hose. Weld another inch, then cool it. Repeat this process for about 12-16 inches. Then sand just the weld smooth not the base metal. Maybe use a die grinder wheel to knock the top off.


This thread makes me think we should offer a class or seminar for this skill. It's not hard, but just takes practice and experience. But having some weekend guidance would good.

Don't forget to clamp your work! (even while practicing) Welding is more than just making a pretty little puddle -- it's as important, if not more important, to have the work NOT WARP!

Just for those reading this thread -- take the two strips Rodger suggests -- lay them flat side by side -- then just do a nice tack at one extreme end. Look at the other end - the gap will have grown!

To do this properly -- clamp the crap out of it (both strips) = tack one end - then the other end - then the middle - then split that again. Now the gap won't move on you.... BUT if you unclamped and finished your weld - the piece will warp... so you leave your clamps --- move them as required to work - and keep it clamped to the flat work space. Weld and cool and weld and cool and keep cooling before you unclamp. It will still warp but that's what you'd work out with a hammer and dolly if you're doing this on a body part.

Remember -- every time you melt (heat) the metal - that area GROWS - and that area also SHRINKS as it cools. The one little spot you melted - and then shrunk is going to move differently than all the other larger metal around the weld area. Clamping and controlling your heat is the way you're trying to control the movement as much as possible... but there is also WHERE you choose to place your welds - because HOW and WHERE you weld will also help counteract the movement.

To picture this in your head -- think of welding a "T" --- (I can't make the T upside down but picture it that way). SO make an inside corner weld on one side of the T and the T won't be straight anymore... but if you tacked the two ends and tacked in the middle = Tack one end on one side and the other tack on the end on the OPPOSITE side.. Check for 90* at this point and adjust - tack the middle - check again and adjust... Now weld a bit on ONE SIDE and then your next weld needs to be on the OPPOSITE side. The metal will pull to the side you welded on -- then will pull back to the direction your next weld was on.

It's all kind of hard to explain via these forums but trust me when I tell you - there's more to "welding" than just the bead. :willy:

The other thing amateurs do is they fit up the piece -- then start tacking or whatever. They never pick up a hammer and dolly, or whatever tool they need to use, and ADJUST the piece as they go. They just weld away - then when they're done they wonder why it doesn't look all pretty like the pictures of other guys work. You've got to "work" the metal as you go IF necessary... to keep warpage down - to keep the gap tight - and blah blah blah. It's not just fit once and weld it. This stuff takes some patience and some some eyeball time - and adjustment as you go.

[DOOM]

This thread makes me think we should offer a class or seminar for this skill. It's not hard, but just takes practice and experience. But having some weekend guidance would good.
__________________
Roger I would fly out for that in a heart beat!! I think its a great idea!!!And I would'nt care what it cost just to get some hands on training from the pros would be invaluable!!!!!!!!!!!

[DOOM]

Don't forget to clamp your work! (even while practicing) Welding is more than just making a pretty little puddle -- it's as important, if not more important, to have the work NOT WARP!

Just for those reading this thread -- take the two strips Rodger suggests -- lay them flat side by side -- then just do a nice tack at one extreme end. Look at the other end - the gap will have grown!

To do this properly -- clamp the crap out of it (both strips) = tack one end - then the other end - then the middle - then split that again. Now the gap won't move on you.... BUT if you unclamped and finished your weld - the piece will warp... so you leave your clamps --- move them as required to work - and keep it clamped to the flat work space. Weld and cool and weld and cool and keep cooling before you unclamp. It will still warp but that's what you'd work out with a hammer and dolly if you're doing this on a body part.

Remember -- every time you melt (heat) the metal - that area GROWS - and that area also SHRINKS as it cools. The one little spot you melted - and then shrunk is going to move differently than all the other larger metal around the weld area. Clamping and controlling your heat is the way you're trying to control the movement as much as possible... but there is also WHERE you choose to place your welds - because HOW and WHERE you weld will also help counteract the movement.

To picture this in your head -- think of welding a "T" --- (I can't make the T upside down but picture it that way). SO make an inside corner weld on one side of the T and the T won't be straight anymore... but if you tacked the two ends and tacked in the middle = Tack one end on one side and the other tack on the end on the OPPOSITE side.. Check for 90* at this point and adjust - tack the middle - check again and adjust... Now weld a bit on ONE SIDE and then your next weld needs to be on the OPPOSITE side. The metal will pull to the side you welded on -- then will pull back to the direction your next weld was on.

It's all kind of hard to explain via these forums but trust me when I tell you - there's more to "welding" than just the bead. :willy:

The other thing amateurs do is they fit up the piece -- then start tacking or whatever. They never pick up a hammer and dolly, or whatever tool they need to use, and ADJUST the piece as they go. They just weld away - then when they're done they wonder why it doesn't look all pretty like the pictures of other guys work. You've got to "work" the metal as you go IF necessary... to keep warpage down - to keep the gap tight - and blah blah blah. It's not just fit once and weld it. This stuff takes some patience and some some eyeball time - and adjustment as you go.

Greg I've made every mistake you talked about!! :D

[Sieg]

Well said Greg. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

Mario - I'm a total newb at welding, I have a Lincoln SP135 that came set up with .030 wire, I practiced and practiced and seldom produced welds I was satisfied with. I recently switched to .023 wire and have only practiced a couple of times now but I'm kicking myself for not doing it a couple years ago. For practice I've been using some 1/2" x .065 sq tubing welding up small square frames and T's and with the .023 wire I'm actually satisfying myself.......:rofl: (door is wide open Greg)

I picked up some scrape sheet metal and that's my next challenge. No doubt understanding, anticipating, and controlling heat induced shrinkage and contraction is the challenge.

As you mentioned proper fill lighting is critical, I thought the arc itself would be enough, but without proper light my results are embarassing.

Tool acquisition is the other fun part of this endevour! It would be cool if someone would post a sticky that identifies all the basic tubing and sheetmetal tools needed to get started then phase 1, 2, 3 tool needs all the way to the Greg Weld level. :D

[DOOM]

I agree with the lighting 100%!!!

[DOOM]

Oh and Roger ............ Lets not even talk about #9!!!:D That guy makes me sick:faint:

[parsonsj]

The other thing amateurs do is they fit up the piece -- then start tacking or whatever. They never pick up a hammer and dolly, or whatever tool they need to use, and ADJUST the piece as they go. They just weld away - then when they're done they wonder why it doesn't look all pretty like the pictures of other guys work. You've got to "work" the metal as you go IF necessary... to keep warpage down - to keep the gap tight - and blah blah blah. It's not just fit once and weld it. This stuff takes some patience and some some eyeball time - and adjustment as you go.So true. I know it took me some time under helmet before I started to work the metal as I went -- and I thought I was "cheating", or lacked the skill to cut the metal to fit properly as I went. Now I don't do much welding on outer body panels; my sheet metal welding is relegated to the interior and bottom of the car. So I don't use TIG. It's too hard to get all three hands needed into position when welding up a toe board from inside the car.

I think the reason that working the metal isn't as well-known as it ought to be is that the typical body panel replacement article in magazines doesn't cover it. I've not seen it, and most certainly the notion of MIG tack-welds followed by TIG finish-welding hasn't been covered.

jp

ps. BTW, great thread!

[ironworks]

__________________
Roger I would fly out for that in a heart beat!! I think its a great idea!!!And I would'nt care what it cost just to get some hands on training from the pros would be invaluable!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok Tomorrow morning and 1 million dollars. I will cover lodging and airfare and food. :D :D :D :D :D

[wellis77]

This thread has easily become one of the best I've read. Thank you to all who have contributed, and thank you to Mario for stepping out and asking the first questions. I have learned a lot and can not wait to get back to town Sunday night and start working on this stuff.

[GregWeld]

Greg I've made every mistake you talked about!! :D

So have I buddy -- and it's why I'm trying to share the love here.... there's so much to learn when doing this stuff. You should - like many - be an expert just about the time you do the very last inch of welding on your project.

Most of us don't do this kind of work all day every day - and yet we want our work to look as though we do. It just isn't that simple. BUT it's why we all hang here and try to help each other through.

You mention back lighting to see your work. My statement here is - then your helmet glass is WRONG/too dark. If you're TIG welding the helmet glass is even more important because many times on thin sheet you're just barely using any amps (voltage really).

I have several helmets -- My favorite is my Optrel. It has a large view area - and has many adjustments... and I can really dial it in to my liking. I'm old - wear bi-focals - and I'm old and I wear bi-focals.... :D If I can't see -- then I can't weld.

Can't stress how important that part is. You've got to be able to see before you start - and you have to see every facet while you're welding. If you can't then you'll make poopie. Get an auto darkening helmet and spend some money on a GOOD ONE that is adjustable - otherwise your experience and fun quotient just won't be good.

With TIG you adjust the heat as you go - start high - lowering it as the puddle forms up nicely - and even lower as you finish off. It's like running the gas pedal on the car... so if you can barely see when you're starting out with the max voltage -- you lower it and you won't see diddly. I tend to lay a test bead on some scrap to get the helmet set (since I weld on all manor of stuff so am always messing with the settings) before I ever try to weld on something that counts. It only takes a second or two to start the arc and dial the helmet with the other hand... no need to add fill etc while doing this and the gauge of metal doesn't count either -- I'm just setting the helmet to the voltage I want to use for the real work.

I can tell you this --- I've NEVER EVER been close to the recommended helmet settings for a given weld setting. I'm always FAR less. I don't care what someone else needs --- it's ME that needs to see! :woot:

[CamaroAJ]

blah blah blah

greg, i really enjoy reading your posts because they are always informative. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

greg, i really enjoy reading your posts because they are always informative. :thumbsup:

Thanks buddy!

I'm just trying to be helpful with the experiences I have... which isn't diddly compared to the pros here - but they don't really have the time to post up the amount of info that it takes sometimes to help someone along. I've got all day... :>) and I type really fast. And I have a big mouth...
:cheers:

[Ron in SoCal]

Thanks buddy!

I'm just trying to be helpful with the experiences I have... which isn't diddly compared to the pros here - but they don't really have the time to post up the amount of info that it takes sometimes to help someone along. I've got all day... :>) and I type really fast. And I have a big mouth...
:cheers:

And you're smart! I don't care what Roger says...:lol:

[GregWeld]

Ok Tomorrow morning and 1 million dollars. I will cover lodging and airfare and food. :D :D :D :D :D

Mario -- I'd do it for a buck....

[ccracin]

This is a great thread. Especially for me as I am also trying to learn with the new Tig welder. I have been reading and practicing. Things are going better. I'm a visual person. Here is the result of the best I have done so far. I am far from happy, but mind you I've only burned about 4 filler rods with the TIG so far.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4799.jpg

I spent a lot of time fitting the panel I made. It was good, but the second one is better. As usual. I am getting ready to start welding the second one. I have it tacked in. Look along the bottom. I was trying to keep everything fitting as I went using a hammer and dolly. I didn't make a weld longer than 1/2" at a time before cooling. I was also hammering the welds as I went to try and keep the panel from shrinking in. When I was done and started the grinding/sanding I realized the panel I added along the bottom was slightly proud. You can see this in the photo. Any suggestions as to how to work this out? A small amount of filler will cover as it is only about 5-10 thou. proud, but I would like to make it better. The same thing happened with the 2 plug weld spots you can see.

This brings me to my next question. What happens when you are butt welding sheet metal and you can't get to the back side to hammer the welds and work the joint? No matter how slow I go and how small the welds are, I almost always end up with the weld bead/HAZ low. Do you use a stud gun or something to raise that area? I will be getting to these types of welds very soon. That's enough for now. Any comments/advice good and bad will be greatly appreciated.

I don't mind others learning from my mistakes! :lol:

[GregWeld]

I'm going to let better body men than I answer these questions -- but I would say on the area being "proud" (high) after hammer welding is because you stretched the panel too much. You don't have to pound the weld perfectly flat to save yourself a lot of work with the grinder. 3 pounds of shizzaz in a 1 pound can. When you're fit up is really tight - you weld - you hammer flat - the metal that is hammered flat is going to GROW not shrink.

Ever heard of a shrinking hammer? They work if you know how to use 'em.

Hammer and dolly work is a black magic art form... I've seen people take a perfectly good panel and RUIN it because they just think you pick up and hammer and start banging away. They stretch the metal - leave hammer marks all over and then start trying to shrink it when they should have just left it alone! LOL

If you "pull" this area out with a stud gun - you'll then most likely end up with an oil can.

Ever heard of Bondo? Works real well on low areas... don't be afraid to use it. :unibrow: Personally - I'd prefer a low area over a proud one.

Not sure what the right answer is on the "can't get there to work the area"... I'm all for "do my best and skim coat it".

My first job ever was at Gateway Body and Fender... back when we brazed panels on. And we did lead work. My boss was always trying to teach me his art... and a "dent" in his mind was not a dent -- it was stretched metal. His job was to "shrink" the stretched metal back to it's original shape. He'd pick up a dolly and hammer and you could actually watch the metal coming back to the original panel shape in an area he wasn't even hammering on! He's hammering here and the metal over there was coming into shape. He did this with very little effort and just the feel of constantly using his hand on the panel. I never did pick up his gift for this. It's still a mystery to me.

[ccracin]

Comments in red below! Thanks Buddy.


I'm going to let better body men than I answer these questions -- but I would say on the area being "proud" (high) after hammer welding is because you stretched the panel too much. I know what you are saying here. I don't think that's what I have going on here. You can pick up an edge with your finger nail as you see it in the picture. When I use my flat hand the panel is flat other than that edge. You don't have to pound the weld perfectly flat to save yourself a lot of work with the grinder. 3 pounds of shizzaz in a 1 pound can. When you're fit up is really tight - you weld - you hammer flat - the metal that is hammered flat is going to GROW not shrink. Agreed. This is how I was trying to raise the low area created by the weld. It absolutely works and it doesn't take much hammering. I guess I just let the 2 panels become mis-aligned

Ever heard of a shrinking hammer? They work if you know how to use 'em.Yea,but I'm not ready for that yet!

Hammer and dolly work is a black magic art form... I've seen people take a perfectly good panel and RUIN it because they just think you pick up and hammer and start banging away. They stretch the metal - leave hammer marks all over and then start trying to shrink it when they should have just left it alone! LOLI have a pile of scrap sheet metal from trying different hammer and dolly methods. On dolly, off dolly, on thumb, etc!:lol:

If you "pull" this area out with a stud gun - you'll then most likely end up with an oil can. That's what I thought, but I know I get the low areas after welding. Light hammering raises them but when I get to the bed, I can't get a dolly behind the panel.:rolleyes:

Ever heard of Bondo? Works real well on low areas... don't be afraid to use it. :unibrow: Personally - I'd prefer a low area over a proud one. Agreed, but when we are trying to live up to standards of Ironworks and Jason(WAR) you get a complex. Yah know!

Not sure what the right answer is on the "can't get there to work the area"... I'm all for "do my best and skim coat it". I'm with ya at this point.

My first job ever was at Gateway Body and Fender... back when we brazed panels on. And we did lead work. My boss was always trying to teach me his art... and a "dent" in his mind was not a dent -- it was stretched metal. His job was to "shrink" the stretched metal back to it's original shape. He'd pick up a dolly and hammer and you could actually watch the metal coming back to the original panel shape in an area he wasn't even hammering on! He's hammering here and the metal over there was coming into shape. He did this with very little effort and just the feel of constantly using his hand on the panel. I never did pick up his gift for this. It's still a mystery to me.

Let's see what the other masters have to say!

[Sandbagger]

I just turned 46 ....For some reason it was getting harder and harder to do a good weld . Thought I was going crazy , turns out I just needed a pair of x2 readers(glasses)

I do alot of minor dents with a shrinking hammer ,especially thin newer cars .


.026 mig wire was another big improvement .

Body filler ,I cant say BONDO ..
I just found this Platinum +3 from marson . 3M just bought them still good .
If you use alot of evercoat glaze (green ) bottle the Platinum will save some money . Platinum feathers great ,especally when its thin. 18 bucks a gallon . Evercoat is like 40 for a bottle :willy:
Ever see that Bondo bazzooka from 3M ??:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[wiedemab]

I have several helmets -- My favorite is my Optrel. It has a large view area - and has many adjustments... and I can really dial it in to my liking. I'm old - wear bi-focals - and I'm old and I wear bi-focals.
:

Just another quick plug for a nice helmet. We bought an Optrel when we bought our tig. I can't stand to use other helmets now.

Also, my Dad struggled with the tig and realized that he needed to be wearing his reading glasses. For the most part, he just let's me do the tig welding, which I'm fine with.......I can use the practice!

[parsonsj]

I've found that my welding glasses are very useful for reading.

jp

[DOOM]

Quick update ..... I made SEVERAL changes. First I spent more time fitting the metal for a tighter fit,big difference!! Then I figured out I had the voltage to low. I turned it up increased the wire speed way better! Kept everthing cool put more light on my work area and readjusted my helmet.Now I'm happy with my final result no swiss cheese,alot stronger weld ,overall a way better finished product!!!! Now I can finally move on... On to the tig....:_paranoid

[ccracin]

Quick update ..... I made SEVERAL changes. First I spent more time fitting the metal for a tighter fit,big difference!! Then I figured out I had the voltage to low. I turned it up increased the wire speed way better! Kept everthing cool put more light on my work area and readjusted my helmet.Now I'm happy with my final result no swiss cheese,alot stronger weld ,overall a way better finished product!!!! Now I can finally move on... On to the tig....:_paranoid

Great to hear Mario. I'll be making adjustments based on this thread as well. Glad you started it!

[GregWeld]

Good to hear Mario!

Like most things --- you have to have a kind of "ah ha" moment... then things seem to go much better and the learning curve slopes off a bit and isn't quite so steep.

Don't forget to keep snipping the wire off as you go too. If you want really nice welds/tacks and good hot starts snip it at an angle. It takes less voltage to make the arc start and the wire is CLEAN and not balled up and contaminated.

If you're just working on a floor patch - then you don't have to do that - but if you're trying to be "mister metal" and have work that looks pro then snipping will "help". I also tend to keep my stick out on the short side.

Once you get the timing and heat down - you won't even need your helmet... you'll just hold it a pull the trigger and make a perfect tack. :cheers:

[ccm399]

I have several helmets -- My favorite is my Optrel. It has a large view area - and has many adjustments... and I can really dial it in to my liking.


Just another quick plug for a nice helmet. We bought an Optrel when we bought our tig. I can't stand to use other helmets now.


Hey guys, I have kinda been in the market for a new helmet. Anyway, based on your recommendations I looked up Optrel and I like what I see! Quick question, what model are we talkin'? I like the e680 as I can lower the shade a lot lower than my current helmet (9 is the lowest setting). The e670 look nice too with it's auto adjustments. I know on aluminum there is a lot of variation of brightness during the weld process. The price for the e680 is really attractive too!

I am mainly looking at low amp TIG welding as my current helmet "drops out" quite often. Tough to weld when you are seeing spots!

Thanks in advance!

Chris

Chris

[ccm399]

Mario these guys are giving you GREAT advice!

Keep practicing! I agree with the start using the TIG thoughts too... Find some material and practice, practice, practice.

Did I miss Rodger answering what rod they use? I have tried using MIG wire as has been mentioned on here. Worked really well, I think next time I am going to cut a 6' section and twist it into a 3' "rod" so I get the melting point of the .030 but the filling of a .060 rod. I find I can get small voids at the edges of the welds if I am not really careful. I haven't practiced too much with the MIG filler yet though so I may continue to practice more before I double up the wire.

Chris

[GregWeld]

I own an Optrel Satellite.

I'm not familiar with the models you mentioned... so without researching them I couldn't advise on what's right for you. I agree though - that if your helmet only goes to 9 -- fugedaboudit. It needs to go to 5 or so because I do a lot of TIG at 7 and 8. And if you want to be able to weld two beer cans together you might be down at 6! LOL


"9" just isn't low enough. So that would be my "guide" on an autodarkening helmet. I personally love my Optrel - large view space - and I keep several clear covers in my welding inventory and change them whenever they get scratched up etc -- with this helmet it's super easy to do that.

Anyone trying to TIG weld with a one number shield (used for guys that arc welded pipes all day back before I was born. :D ) is going to find it IMPOSSIBLE.

Think of it this way --- The TIG machine was super expensive (relatively) so why would you try to use a cheap azz helmet. One GREAT helmet is able to do ALL your welding needs... so cough up and get one that makes it so you can at least see what the hell you're burning holes in. :rofl:

[GregWeld]

I forgot I was going to share a little story at my own expense....


I've had the Optrel for maybe 5 years.... picked it up to do some work and the dang thing wouldn't darken... so now I'm looking for a battery to change... can't find anything... so PO'd I head for AirGas... the guys there know me well... and I tuck my helmet under my arm and storm in there...and I'm already frustrated because it's messed up my afternoon (you guys know what I'm talking about here)... and I ask -- "hey guys... where the dang battery in this POS?!"....


Well.... the helmet is SOLAR POWERED... and hadn't seen sunlight since the day I brought it home. Pretty long lasting on "one charge" I'd say. I hadn't used it for a couple months maybe -- and she just finally gave up the ghost. Set it out in the sun for a few hours the next day and bingo.. all good to go.

I didn't ask and haven't researched - but TIG will give you a "sun burn" (ask me how I know?) so maybe if you just TIG enough and frequently enough - that will keep it charged up?

[ccm399]

I own an Optrel Satellite.


Perfect thanks Greg!

Optrel's site says the e680 replaces the model you have. That is exactly what I am looking for. You are so right about the sun burn. I used to weld cylinder heads quite a bit back in the day and many time my arms would get tanned sometimes a little red. We are talking a couple hours of welding though....

You are also right about 9 being a little dark. It is OK for aluminum but on low amp steel not so much.... I figure I will keep my current helmet for MIG welding and only use the new one for TIG.

Thanks again!

Chris

[ccm399]

I forgot I was going to share a little story at my own expense....


I've had the Optrel for maybe 5 years.... picked it up to do some work and the dang thing wouldn't darken... so now I'm looking for a battery to change... can't find anything... so PO'd I head for AirGas... the guys there know me well... and I tuck my helmet under my arm and storm in there...and I'm already frustrated because it's messed up my afternoon (you guys know what I'm talking about here)... and I ask -- "hey guys... where the dang battery in this POS?!"....


Well.... the helmet is SOLAR POWERED... and hadn't seen sunlight since the day I brought it home. Pretty long lasting on "one charge" I'd say. I hadn't used it for a couple months maybe -- and she just finally gave up the ghost. Set it out in the sun for a few hours the next day and bingo.. all good to go.

I didn't ask and haven't researched - but TIG will give you a "sun burn" (ask me how I know?) so maybe if you just TIG enough and frequently enough - that will keep it charged up?

So a little more digging on the e680 specs and it looks like they added battery backup for the solar cells... I am guessing you were not the only one with this issue. Good to see a company improving their products. I'll have to call Tom over at Airgas to see what they can get me this helmet for.

Chris

[CRCRFT78]

I'm a little confused, maybe I missed a post while reading, Greg mentioned to snip the wire at an angle before welding. Now I'm assuming most of these posts are about TIG welding. Are you using MIG wire as your filler when TIG welding?

[ccm399]

Hey Jose,

Greg was talking about MIG at the time. They were discussing using MIG for the tack welds and TIG to finish them out. Snipping the wire results in a cleaner weld. Also trimming after each tack ensures you have the correct "stick out" of the wire. The angle cut helps the arc start.

Greg if I missed anything please fill in the blanks...it's early yet.... :rofl:

Chris

[ironworks]

I only recommend MIG wire when TIG welding for someone just beginning. It helps you control your heat. And helps with learning to feed the rod quickly. But once you get things going, regular rod is preferable. I remember running out of small rod and one of my really good welders used something like .090 rod to weld 18 gauge and did not have any warpage issues. But he knew how to control is heat. See he is using bigger rod the the material thickness, so it's easier to burn through the sheetmetal then melt the fill rod.

It is all about fit up and putting the least amount of heat in the panel and then learning how to fix what heat you do put in the panel. Once you get the TIG figured out, you will never do sheetmetal work with a MIG unless you have to. Some times you have to use the MIG if you can't get behind a panel.

[GregWeld]

I'm LOL --- but would ADD to Rodgers post on TIG vs MIG....

Once you learn how to TIG - You'll prefer it for EVERYTHING not just thin sheet metal. :yes: It's just so clean and such a much nicer finish... and is so much more fun to do. MIG welding feels like you're some kind of production worker compared to TIG'n on something. I can't put it in words but it's just a feeling of satisfaction being able to control the weld. Then you stand back and look at that stack of dimes and it is something YOU did.

Having said all that -- I totally understand the reasons for only owning a MIG and there is NOTHING wrong with using it to it's max and becoming skilled in using it.

[GregWeld]

Hey Jose,

Greg was talking about MIG at the time. They were discussing using MIG for the tack welds and TIG to finish them out. Snipping the wire results in a cleaner weld. Also trimming after each tack ensures you have the correct "stick out" of the wire. The angle cut helps the arc start.

Greg if I missed anything please fill in the blanks...it's early yet.... :rofl:

Chris

Give this man an A+ !!

[CRCRFT78]

Thanks for the clarification Chris. I've heard about using MIG wire as filler but wasn't sure if I got sidetracked or not.

[War]

All In all this is a fun thread but.....there is no way welding and metal finishing sheet metal can be discussed or written about here were you can become proficient at it. There are alot more aspects to it than just welding. Like Rodger keeps stating, FIT UP, first. You have to master this and with what tools to do this. Hammer work, like Greg mentioned, is very important. This alone I have found is probably the most important and will take the longest to learn. Finesse with the tools, where to hit to do different things, what dolly to use,(sometimes you have to make your own tools), what hammer to pick up. When and how to hammer the weld. And of course the welding. I think lots of people have different methods. I don't wear a hood when I tack with the mig and sometimes with the tig. and I don't snip the wire.

Education is never free. You can pay for a class, talk to pro's and do what ever to repay there time for showing you, study GOOD work in bare metal, ask questions. But at the end of the day you still have to put in the time if you want and enjoy doing the work. The price of education.

I am not a pro fabricator by any means but feel the more I do the better I get which was why I started to build my car I the first place. Driving it will just be icing on the cake.

There are quite a few really good people in this industry who are more than willing to share some knowledge, all you have to do is listen and apply it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Maybe some of you can get a shop like Roder's talked into opening up a class on the weekends. I would go for sure.

[Sieg]

Well said Jason. :thumbsup:

[The WidowMaker]

I didn't ask and haven't researched - but TIG will give you a "sun burn" (ask me how I know?) so maybe if you just TIG enough and frequently enough - that will keep it charged up?


both mig and tig will charge your helmet. my miller has a solar charged battery, but the damn thing just went out. i thoughr it would be an easy swap, but miller soldered in the battery in my style helmet. the style of battery was a PAIN to find locally, so the soldering was the easiest part of the fix.

[The WidowMaker]

i'll bite on the questions.... how cleanly do welds need to be finished to be considered "good"? i know some guys can make them dissapear and i used to grind and sand until they did, but i always ended up with the paper thin metal. now, if i try to just get them smooth and there are imperfections, they stay to retain the metal thickness.

case in point; i welded up the joints between the trunk filler panel and quarters today. this was a pretty big seam with both pieces radiused/rolling into the joint even though the flanges were tight(hard to explain but some may understand). my normal series of tacks left me with a weld that was proud in the center but just slightly recessed on the outsides since i was concerned about already putting in more heat than normal due to the amount needing filled. once finished about 50% of the weld is clean and finished, but its not as clean as i would like.

what else can be done now? what else could i have done while welding? i dont want a second pass as i know it will clean up with a skim coat of filler. would the pros be concerned at this point? do your welds always finish perfect or is good acceptable? how often can you make a repair invisible?

[ccracin]

i'll bite on the questions.... how cleanly do welds need to be finished to be considered "good"? i know some guys can make them dissapear and i used to grind and sand until they did, but i always ended up with the paper thin metal. now, if i try to just get them smooth and there are imperfections, they stay to retain the metal thickness.

case in point; i welded up the joints between the trunk filler panel and quarters today. this was a pretty big seam with both pieces radiused/rolling into the joint even though the flanges were tight(hard to explain but some may understand). my normal series of tacks left me with a weld that was proud in the center but just slightly recessed on the outsides since i was concerned about already putting in more heat than normal due to the amount needing filled. once finished about 50% of the weld is clean and finished, but its not as clean as i would like.

what else can be done now? what else could i have done while welding? i dont want a second pass as i know it will clean up with a skim coat of filler. would the pros be concerned at this point? do your welds always finish perfect or is good acceptable? how often can you make a repair invisible?

That's been my issue as well. In the pic I posted, I could make the weld disappear. I just don't want to thin the parent metal. Glaze will easily cover the small depression. Is this considered acceptable practice? In my mind, I would prefer that to aluminum foil in areas. Any comments?

[parsonsj]

You don't ever want to leave the part or panel structurally unsound. That's form over function, and doesn't belong on an automobile. As soon as my grinder/sander hits parent metal beside the weld, I quit grinding or sanding. If there is some slight low spot/crater from welding, I leave it for filler, weld again to fill the crater, or paint it. It all depends on the location, material, and function.

jp

[ccracin]

You don't ever want to leave the part or panel structurally unsound. That's form over function, and doesn't belong on an automobile. As soon as my grinder/sander hits parent metal beside the weld, I quit grinding or sanding. If there is some slight low spot/crater from welding, I leave it for filler, weld again to fill the crater, or paint it. It all depends on the location, material, and function.

jp

That's exactly what my opinion is. I am even unwilling in some cases to come back and add more weld to some low spots because I don't want to add more heat. I have been considering using some silicon bronze filler wire to fix these little imperfections. Uses a little less heat and finishes more easily. Although I would never use it for structural work. Thanks for confirming my thoughts John.

[SuperB70]

I have been watching www.weldingtipsandtricks.com

You can find him on youtube too

There is alot of videos of how to weld different kind of stuff

Guy really knows what hes talking about.

,Juhani

[The WidowMaker]

i posted this in my build thread, but figured i would ask here as well....

i picked up my new door shells and am acutally impressed with the rear fit of the drivers side so far (still a lot to go). the gap is really consistent and the profile matches the quarter well. i was prepared to weld an 1/8th" round rod to the edge of the door to assist in working the gap, but found that i only need to take off a little in one area (.030 over about 4"). so, would you prefer to weld a rod the entire length of the door, or just remove some material? doing so will likely split the skin, but i can either mig or tig it back closed and then file to fit.

which would you prefer?

i do have to weld a rod to the bottom. the gap is a little too wide (~.320), although very consistent since its within .015 front to back.

also, what do you guys do to build an edge up to get panels to flow better across the gap (height not width)? would you rather build with a weld bead of tacks, weld a rod or do the work with filler?

[Sieg]

So..........this is my first attempt at welding sheetmetal. Hopefully the pro's will provide some constructive criticism that myself and others can learn from.

I'm practicing on 18 ga using a Lincoln 135sp with .023 wire and C25. I suspended the pieces off the table and gapped slightly with the magnets. Tacked extreme left then right, blotted with a damp towel, hammered them down a little, then repeated the procedure the center, then split the gaps 2 tacks at a time.

After a little hammering the piece is relatively flat at this stage. I'm thinking (guessing) :rolleyes: there is too much wire on top and not enough penetration but the heat looks close.

Rookie work bench
http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6373/1193337020_xzDyD-L.jpg

Top
http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6371/1193336868_zz5bh-L.jpg

Back
http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6372/1193336935_nojBw-L.jpg

Input is much appreciated. :cheers:

[NsaneHotrodz]

You need a little more heat, the bead is just setting on the metal. Not enough penetration on the back side. DeWayne

[GregWeld]

Yep -- lacking a little heat... shorten your stick out... and hold for just a teenie tiny bit longer... for the penetration.

[Sieg]

Thanks guys!

So while I was awaiting the pro's comments I tinkered a little more. Looks like same issue, which is common for me, not enough heat. I'll replicate these using more juice.

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6374/1193463628_u7K3L-M.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6375/1193463784_4xoYi-M.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6376/1193463894_hZ4vW-M.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6378/1193464262_ScyC2-M.jpg
I'm assuming I want penetration similar to the left end tack?

Out to burn some more metal! :woot:

[elitecustombody]

Looks better,but I'd still add more heat,maybe turn wire feed down a notch and leave slightly bigger gap,try staying longer on trigger

[Sieg]

OK, bumped up the amperage and started getting better penetration. Made one pass with the sander and realized I hadn't taken pics yet.
http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6380/1193605953_ySRBp-L.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6384/1193606127_mFjmL-L.jpg

Sanded down, couple of low spots :(
http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6383/1193606725_C49QB-L.jpg

Outside corner piece finished out ok......I think?
http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6386/1193607175_CjDfz-L.jpg

It's a fine and challenging line, I like the it!.......with scrape metal anyway. :D

What do the pro's think?

[GregWeld]

Not trying to beat you up when I say this...

It's not the outward appearance that makes a test grade weld... it HAS to have penetration... even if it finishes out "fine" on the visible side.

I agree with Elite -- turn the wire down just a skosh more -- heat up a bit more (one amp per .001 thickness of the metal --- so .125" steel (1/8th inch) gets 125 amps.

And he's right -- just stay with the trigger a bit longer...

Isn't this fun?!

[Sieg]

Not trying to beat you up when I say this...

It's not the outward appearance that makes a test grade weld... it HAS to have penetration... even if it finishes out "fine" on the visible side.

I agree with Elite -- turn the wire down just a skosh more -- heat up a bit more (one amp per .001 thickness of the metal --- so .125" steel (1/8th inch) gets 125 amps.

And he's right -- just stay with the trigger a bit longer...

Isn't this fun?!
Thanks, I take constructive criticism well, it motivates me. :thumbsup:

I've made some darn purdy cold welds too. :yes:

One per thousandth and few more milliseconds on the trigger - Check!

Fun? H*ll yes, I love it!

Thanks again, I really appreciate it. :hail:

[Sieg]

Seeing signs of improvement?
http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6391/1195006707_aeMTK-L.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6392/1195006744_TDYFX-L.jpg

For scale those are 1" wide strips. Gap approx 1/32, heat up, wire down, 1/4" stick out, and little more trigger.

Tack spacing? The new settings enlarged the size of the tack about 15%.

Thanks

[GregWeld]

Turn the heat down a bit now --- that's too much penetration. Or you're a little long on the trigger --- hard to tell. But it's too much of the dreaded "P".

[Sieg]

Turn the heat down a bit now --- that's too much penetration. Or you're a little long on the trigger --- hard to tell. But it's too much of the dreaded "P".Thanks, my guess is a little long on the trigger. Now I have a visual idea where the middle ground is. :thumbsup:

[The WidowMaker]

once you have your first set of tacks, concentrate on starting your next set at the base of the first. it may help to grind down your first set before you start your second. if you have too much build up on top, it will take more heat to get the pentration that you want.

[ccracin]

once you have your first set of tacks, concentrate on starting your next set at the base of the first. it may help to grind down your first set before you start your second. if you have too much build up on top, it will take more heat to get the pentration that you want.

This works! Ask me how I know! :unibrow:

[Sieg]

once you have your first set of tacks, concentrate on starting your next set at the base of the first. it may help to grind down your first set before you start your second. if you have too much build up on top, it will take more heat to get the pentration that you want.

This works! Ask me how I know! :unibrow:

Thanks guys! I really appreciate the tricks of the trade input. I was experiencing build up when the spacing tightened up using the alternating method. I'll try the sequential mode in my next lesson.

Nit-picking - I wish my little Lincoln 135+ used a numerical scale for amperage vs. the A-B-C-D, it reminds me of dialing a phone number by alphabet. :(

I also need to fab a "water dobber bottle" as the damp towel method makes the procedure even slower. I have a felted wool area rug with 1/2" dia. tufts that may work as a donor. :unibrow:

[ironworks]

I also need to fab a "water dobber bottle" as the damp towel method makes the procedure even slower. I have a felted wool area rug with 1/2" dia. tufts that may work as a donor. :unibrow:

Compressed air is better. It works faster and does not create rust.

I will say it again and it keeps getting forgotten due to the difficulty of skill, But Learning to TIG weld this stuff is way better. Once you Learn to work with the TIG you will never go back, unless the situation needs it. It is worth the effort.

I don't care who you are, You will never have the results with the MIG you can have with the TIG. Both processes can be done at Home without a problem.

[Sieg]

Compressed air is better. It works faster and does not create rust.

I will say it again and it keeps getting forgotten due to the difficulty of skill, But Learning to TIG weld this stuff is way better. Once you Learn to work with the TIG you will never go back, unless the situation needs it. It is worth the effort.

I don't care who you are, You will never have the results with the MIG you can have with the TIG. Both processes can be done at Home without a problem.
Now you're exploiting my handicaps, Tigless with a small compressor. :D
A baby Thermal Arc 185 tig is definitely on the want list. Though I do like the challenge of making the mig work in this application. When I bought the mig I thought it would suffice, I quickly learned a lot of the "stuff" I envisioned doing was smaller scale and required a tig to deliver satisfactory appearance in my eyes. :( It's still fun improving the skillsets, but funding the recreation gets spendy fast!

Some of the hand-welded titanium tig work produced by Akrapovic on motorcycle exhausts is just pure artwork in my eyes.

Thanks for the input, I can't learn enough. :thumbsup:

[ErikLS2]

Just wanted to also say thank you for all the great information provided in this thread. It's nice to see so much help and advice from the more experienced members on here.

I'm wondering what some of the experts think of learning on thicker stuff and then working up to the thinner stuff as you get familiar with the process. I had an old flat fender Jeep before my Camaro which was just going to be a beater until I had so much fun learning how to weld it turned into a complete reconstuction. In the beginning I had a much easier time with the .120 wall stuff. Once I got to the sheet metal I kind of had some the motor skills down at least.

Maybe a topic for another thread but with the suggestion of moving to TIG, is there any type of machine you guys would suggest for the home user? I've looked at the new inverter TIG's, like the size, cost etc. of those. Would one of them do everything you need on a car project?

Thanks again, and keep the good info coming, please!

[Sieg]

Erik - This started out as mig/tig, so I'd say tig discussion is legal. I've been researching tig's for a while now, what I perceive to be one of the nicer "hobbiest" tig machines is the Thermal Arc 185 kit. http://www.thermadyne.com/thermalarc/products/detailProduct.html?prodID=10-3073A-2

A comparable Miller would be my next choice.

I too cannot say enough about the knowledge I've gained thanks to the generosity, patience, and understanding of some of the many very talented Lat-G members. I'm forever grateful to the many willing to share their talents and help me learn. :thumbsup:

[ccm399]

Maybe a topic for another thread but with the suggestion of moving to TIG, is there any type of machine you guys would suggest for the home user? I've looked at the new inverter TIG's, like the size, cost etc. of those. Would one of them do everything you need on a car project?

Thanks again, and keep the good info coming, please!

I have the Miller Diversion 165 and LOVE it for project use!!! :thumbsup:

Now they have the 180 out too which comes with a foot pedal so I would go that route. Anyway, that little 165 has never missed a beat and I have used it pretty hard for extended periods of time. I think Miller has under rated teh duty cycle rating but I can understand why. I do have to say though, after running a Miller Sync250 I do find myself wanting more power from time to time but for the most part we are talking projects that are slightly out of the "norm" for a car project.

Chris

[ccracin]

Well, here we go. Just did this tonight. This was all using the TIG machine. Now take this for what it is worth, I have only burned about 6 filler rods with this thing. Oh, sorry for so many pics, I wanted to show every step. I am putting Bear Claw latches in the truck. This is just an example of filling one bolt hole, but illustrates the process ok I think.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4882.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4884.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4885.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4886.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4888.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4889.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4890.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4891.jpg

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4896.jpg

This is the back side of that hole inside the door.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r35/ccracin/IMG_4895.jpg

So let me have it, what looks right and what looks wrong? I have a lot of welding to do! Thanks for any input.

[GregWeld]

Oh........ I think we have a new member of "TIGS R US".... :woot:

Once you go TIG you find it harder and harder to pick up the squeeze machine.
:D

Remember -- ALL welding... rule #1 if at all possible.... CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN metal... and even cleaner for TIG. MIG lets you get away with murder... TIG will kick your butt on dirty stuff.

[Sieg]

Chad, your's looks like a real project! :D I can sure see the benefits of TIG in this situation, thorough penetration and less material deposited on the top side of the work. Doesn't look too bad to my unexperienced eye, only thing I would question based on Greg's (Mr Clean) statements is in the last photo, the backside of the door material could have been sanded clean.......??

[Sieg]

OK, here's tonights MIG 101 attempt:

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6405/1196121522_oARAk-L.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Welding/IMGP6404/1196121478_ZkK27-L.jpg

Penetration appears a little lite in areas, but close?

Or........should I take two weeks off then buy a Thermal Arc 185 or Miller 180? :D Reality is I need a RS600 more than a TIG right now. :unibrow:

[ccracin]

Seig,

Thanks for the comments. Yea, I'm practicing on the project. Gotta make progress!

Greg,

I am definitely growing attached to the TIG. I need to learn how to feed the rod better. Can't get that smooth. Also, I did not realize the back side was so rusty. I couldn't see it. I actually stuck the camera in the door and just pushed the button. Took several shots to actually get the photo I wanted. It is now on our list to blast the inside of the doors as well. Practice, practice, practice!:lateral:

[DOOM]

I think it would be great to have a ''ASK THE FABRICATOR'' section. Lets here what Scott thinks..

[2Bad4Ya]

Some good points for fledgling welders, but one thing I never see mentioned when giving tips....

Ventilate your work area! Welding fumes can be bad for your health. Excessive exposure can cause a type of parkinson disease.

Work upwind of the welding fumes if outside, and if inside and you dont have a respirator us a small fan to suck the fumes away from you.

[ErikLS2]

Didn't see these mentioned here yet, sorry if I missed it

http://www.shop3m.com/60980013910.html?WT.mc_ev=clickthrough&WT.mc_id=shop3m-AtoZ-Green-Corps-Reinforced-Weld-Grinding-Wheel

At 3/16 thick they work better than a thin cutoff wheel for grinding down weld beads and they last a lot longer. Can be tough to find locally sometimes though.

[The WidowMaker]

Penetration appears a little lite in areas, but close?

Or........should I take two weeks off then buy a Thermal Arc 185 or Miller 180? Reality is I need a RS600 more than a TIG right now.


still too much build up on top, tacks spaced too far apart and not enough penetration. the little craters in each of the welds should dissapear when you do your next tack. hell, i dont know if i do it correctly or not, but probably 40% of my previous tack will go molten when i do my next tack. too much build up on top makes it like trying to weld sheetmetal to 1/8" plate.

i would turn the heat up a little and hold the trigger for less time. that, or turn the wire speed down a little so you can hold it for a little longer without getting too much build up.

how long are you holding the trigger for? im a "pull-1-2-off" kind of guy. sometimes its forrest gump counting and other times its an auctioneer, but i find a rythm and go from there.

[Sieg]

Thanks for the constructive feedback, I agree with all the points mentioned. Being a total newb to it and having limited experimentation time makes the learner curve longer. I typically learn best by hands-on experience but also rely on written input. I'd guess due to fear of burn through and build up I'm not holding it long enough.

Yesterday I fab a clamp device for notching tubing and practice welding tubing and found during my tubing welding experiments that I may be holding the tip off too far as when it was close (IMO) the bead laid down more. Being able to see the bead well enough to relax appears to be a major challenge for me. The size of that damn nozzle doesn't help matter either. :D The Harbor Freight helmet appears to be a little dark even on the lightest setting IMO. An Optrel may be in my future since at 52 my vision is digressing thus compounding the factors.

I'm only on my 2nd bottle of gas in 6 years so more time on the gun definitely an issue though I have made a noticeable dent on the bottle in the last week.

I'll work on experimenting more with finding the extremes, that should help and my self imposed learning barriers will fall.

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate your help and support. :thumbsup:

[The WidowMaker]

keep trying and you'll get it. my car has been a 5 year project and i hadnt welded much of anything before i started. i look at some of the first welds i did on this car and almost vomit. its amazing how practice helps.

less stickout can do a few things for you; it will make your placement more accurate, increase the heat and decrease your vision. i find that i get a sloppy gun angle the closer i get, but i do weld much better with about 1/4" stickout.

[Sieg]

keep trying and you'll get it. my car has been a 5 year project and i hadnt welded much of anything before i started. i look at some of the first welds i did on this car and almost vomit. its amazing how practice helps.

less stickout can do a few things for you; it will make your placement more accurate, increase the heat and decrease your vision. i find that i get a sloppy gun angle the closer i get, but i do weld much better with about 1/4" stickout.
I try to run 1/4 - 3/8" stick out so the average is 3-5/16th. Maintaining proper gun attitude is the most likely the handicap. I think through the work position, line of travel, and gun position in advance of pulling the trigger but having the talent to reinact it is another thing. :(

To date my tubing weld are inducing a gag reflex. :D

Thanks again. :thumbsup:

[DOOM]

Well the tig comes out tomorrow.I'm at a point where the migs not going to cut it anymore.. I need to start learning how to use this thing will see what happens...:_paranoid

[DOOM]

Well attemps 1,2,and 3 are utter disasters!! Every night I've been spending a couple of hours trying to figure this tig out. For the most part I can control the tourch and run a nice bead by itself. But when I start to use the wire DISASTER!!! I'm using the mig wire as filler Roger said to start with. I'm having a hard time starting the puddle without burning through no matter how low I bring the amps down. I just ordered a new Optrel welding helmet. I think vision is part of my problem. So will see what happens with the new helmet when I get it...

[DOOM]

[QUOTE=DOOM;331644]

Honestly, Trying to get it figured out with a MIG is totally different then a TIG. If you scribe tight light to trim and fit you can tack it up with the MIG. But learning how to weld sheetmetal is like trying to learn how to ride a bicycle when you want to ride a unicycyle. Just start now with the tig on 20amps and maybe buy some MIG wire to not build up your welds to much while your learning. The TIG welders out number MIG welders 5-2 in my shop and all my MIG welders are 110 volt except 1. I have 1 220 volt MIG.

Spend your time learning how to trim and fit sheetmetal very tight. Then learn to tack with the TIG.

Learn to cut gap and fit like this
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Top%20Secret%20Camaro/ShopPicsFebuary2011010.jpg
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Top%20Secret%20Camaro/ShopPicsFebuary2011014.jpg
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/Top%20Secret%20Camaro/ShopPicsFebuary2011015.jpg

Roger is that a cut a tight fit or is that a slight gap? If its a gap are you using a filler rod?

[GregWeld]

Mario --

The "pros" might offer a different opinion - but a "gap" is a burn through for me. I can jump the gap (I weld far more than the average guy but nowhere near what a pro does) but it's far more work and makes it far harder to weld.

Do not listen to the instructions on the tungsten stick out rules (3 x's the dia)...
If I can't SEE the tungsten I can't weld... so I run a bit more stickout (I also run a gas lens so gas flow is better - to cool the tungsten).

The fill is a coordination 'dance' for me - I move my torch forward which pushes the puddle forward and then I bring it back just a schoosh and as I do that I dip the fill then advance that (pushing it forward) and so on. I'm an old school gas welder - where you made circles with the torch and dipped the fill when the circle was 180* at the back of the circle (does that make sense). And I've tried that technique with my TIG torch but found it to not be necessary.

Do you have a foot control? I light it up - get the puddle started and immediately back off - dip - push forward - move back - dip - forward - and always watching the puddle and using the foot control to add or subtract heat as needed. I always "coast" up to the end of a weld - dipping a couple times to finish (eliminates the crater).

Also -- do you have the torch angled back - I'm probably at 30 to 45*. You can't angle back as much if your stick out isn't right... and the heat goes up as the gap of the arc lengthens (that might not be technically correct - but it's what I see). I keep the arc pretty tight - so on thin gauge sheet metal - the arc length is probably only a 1/8th inch maybe less.

Don't give up -- TIG is the best welding a guy can do.... the clean up is far less (easier) and the control is by far the best.

[DOOM]

Thanx Greg!! I'm commited to make this work I never give up ... But it is frustrating let me tell you . I'll bring my tungsten out a little more,and I just ordered the glass lens for the tig tourch. I do think vision is a big part of my problem. Its a little harder for me I have no vision in my right eye. I hope the new helmet works better than my Miller.. I looked at Rogers picture and I figured that it was a gap . Man thats some crazy control to be able to fill that gap..

[GregWeld]

Well..... there's always going to be a gap... But I like my gap less than the width of my fill rod...

I have a couple of torches -- and prefer my smaller "2 series" torch it's lighter and has a super flexible hose. The torch that came with my machine doesn't get used unless I'm doing something larger. I use a 1/16th tungsten... and 1/16th fill rod on sheet metal.

Torch size is important... :D

[ccm399]

Well attemps 1,2,and 3 are utter disasters!! Every night I've been spending a couple of hours trying to figure this tig out. For the most part I can control the tourch and run a nice bead by itself. But when I start to use the wire DISASTER!!! I'm using the mig wire as filler Roger said to start with. I'm having a hard time starting the puddle without burning through no matter how low I bring the amps down. I just ordered a new Optrel welding helmet. I think vision is part of my problem. So will see what happens with the new helmet when I get it...

Mario trust me you are going to LOVE LOVE LOVE that Optrel helmet. I just got mine the other day and MAN what a difference. I have used other highish end helmets and they do not even come close to the optics of the Optrel.

Greg is giving you great advice. I would add maybe try a thicker material until you are comfortable with the torch, filler and pedal control. Just some food for thought but hey I started with Aluminum so my opinion might not be the "norm". Actually I have an easier time with aluminum than steel but I have been practicing steel more lately so I can hold my own there now too.

Chris

[ccm399]

Mario --


Do not listen to the instructions on the tungsten stick out rules (3 x's the dia)...
If I can't SEE the tungsten I can't weld... so I run a bit more stickout (I also run a gas lens so gas flow is better - to cool the tungsten).

Exactly what I have always said too! When I first started to TIG everyone said the same deal 3x diameter should be the stickout finally I started experimenting on my own and found MUCH better control with additional stickout.

[The WidowMaker]

i didnt listen and picked up the finger controls for my dynasty. huge disaster. trying to keep your hand stable while rolling the trigger doesnt work. i need to pick up the foot control and give it another shot. luckily for my exhaust i was able to do a fusion weld. it made controlling the hand controls much easier.

a couple things that i will echo; sight is very important. i was losing the battery on my miller helmet and just momentary flickering caused a huge distraction. also, the gas cups work wonders. i was able to use a little more stickout and still have great gas coverage. as greg said, a little extra stickout helps a lot.

also, not really what you are doing, but i found a back purge on my exhaust improved my welds over 30%. not sure the mechanics behind everything that was happening, but burn thrus were gone and penetration was much better with no extra heat.

[out2kayak]

Mario trust me you are going to LOVE LOVE LOVE that Optrel helmet. I just got mine the other day and MAN what a difference. I have used other highish end helmets and they do not even come close to the optics of the Optrel.

Greg is giving you great advice. I would add maybe try a thicker material until you are comfortable with the torch, filler and pedal control. Just some food for thought but hey I started with Aluminum so my opinion might not be the "norm". Actually I have an easier time with aluminum than steel but I have been practicing steel more lately so I can hold my own there now too.

Chris

Any particular Optrel? Optrel Satellite?

I have a Lincoln helmet currently. It's too dark and fogs up really easily (perhaps I'm breathing too hard?).

:cheers:

[ccm399]

Any particular Optrel? Optrel Satellite?

I have a Lincoln helmet currently. It's too dark and fogs up really easily (perhaps I'm breathing too hard?).

:cheers:

e680. It is the new Satellite replacement. The only difference is it come with a backup battery to the solar cells. I have used both Miller and Lincoln helmet in the past and while they work just fine the Optrel is just that much better. Plus if you are doing real low amp stuff you can turn it all the way down to a 5 shade. Super light weight too.

I use a gas lens too. Very helpful.

Chris

[DOOM]

Well..... there's always going to be a gap... But I like my gap less than the width of my fill rod...

I have a couple of torches -- and prefer my smaller "2 series" torch it's lighter and has a super flexible hose. The torch that came with my machine doesn't get used unless I'm doing something larger. I use a 1/16th tungsten... and 1/16th fill rod on sheet metal.

Torch size is important... :D
Its on the way Greg ! My tungsten is 3/32 as is my filler rod.. Changing all of it...
Mario trust me you are going to LOVE LOVE LOVE that Optrel helmet. I just got mine the other day and MAN what a difference. I have used other highish end helmets and they do not even come close to the optics of the Optrel.

Greg is giving you great advice. I would add maybe try a thicker material until you are comfortable with the torch, filler and pedal control. Just some food for thought but hey I started with Aluminum so my opinion might not be the "norm". Actually I have an easier time with aluminum than steel but I have been practicing steel more lately so I can hold my own there now too.

Chris
I have been jumping to much .. And have been staying with the thick stuff for now..
Exactly what I have always said too! When I first started to TIG everyone said the same deal 3x diameter should be the stickout finally I started experimenting on my own and found MUCH better control with additional stickout.
I've been playing with this and I agree a little more stick out is better...
i didnt listen and picked up the finger controls for my dynasty. huge disaster. trying to keep your hand stable while rolling the trigger doesnt work. i need to pick up the foot control and give it another shot. luckily for my exhaust i was able to do a fusion weld. it made controlling the hand controls much easier.

a couple things that i will echo; sight is very important. i was losing the battery on my miller helmet and just momentary flickering caused a huge distraction. also, the gas cups work wonders. i was able to use a little more stickout and still have great gas coverage. as greg said, a little extra stickout helps a lot.

also, not really what you are doing, but i found a back purge on my exhaust improved my welds over 30%. not sure the mechanics behind everything that was happening, but burn thrus were gone and penetration was much better with no extra heat.

Back purge ?

[DOOM]

Yesterday I did improve a LITTLE bit . I figured out that I had to turn the gas down when I was doing the sheet metal. It helped..

[ironworks]

Ok I have been thinking I could put together a small skills training class. I could get some extra talent to come in and teach some. I would have to bring in a few extra talented welders that would give up their weekend. But if you guys want to let me know who would be interested and what kind of time frame to set the class up for would be good. I was thinking Friday night to maybe Sunday at Noon. Basically a 16 hour course with enough time to get back to work on Monday. I could have some of my guys take everybody at their level. The cost might be 600 -750 bucks. We could assign 2 students to one teacher, We could make it a pretty fun weekend. If we are going to do it before summer we better get on it or do it in Sept or October. Cuz it gets real hot here in the Summer.

Just an idea. I know Greg would come just for the food.

[GregWeld]

Yesterday I did improve a LITTLE bit . I figured out that I had to turn the gas down when I was doing the sheet metal. It helped..

Yep -- too much gas will do that!

Gas lens allows you to run less CFM on the gas.... I'm running maybe 12/14 cfm with a #5 cup and a 1/16th tungsten when doing sheet metal.

I don't know if that's "right" but it works for me.

I run 40 amps == but use a foot control (the new wifi version from Miller - super slick!) and am probably welding at 20 or so but I've learned to use the foot control to ramp up and slow down etc as needed. Since I'm a long time drummer -- using the "independence" of my appendages (LOL) isn't an issue for me.

RODGER ---- I'd come down for a welding class.... and some bar b q.... There's always more a guy can learn. I'm a self taught mo'roon.... and would love to get some tips and tricks!

[DOOM]

Ok I have been thinking I could put together a small skills training class. I could get some extra talent to come in and teach some. I would have to bring in a few extra talented welders that would give up their weekend. But if you guys want to let me know who would be interested and what kind of time frame to set the class up for would be good. I was thinking Friday night to maybe Sunday at Noon. Basically a 16 hour course with enough time to get back to work on Monday. I could have some of my guys take everybody at their level. The cost might be 600 -750 bucks. We could assign 2 students to one teacher, We could make it a pretty fun weekend. If we are going to do it before summer we better get on it or do it in Sept or October. Cuz it gets real hot here in the Summer.

Just an idea. I know Greg would come just for the food.

PUT ME IN COACH!!! Sooner the better!!!!!!

[ironworks]

PUT ME IN COACH!!! Sooner the better!!!!!!

Your wish is my command. May 20-22, 2011

Check the open discussion forum.

[ccm399]

Come on Mario.....

How's that new Optrel?????

[DOOM]

Come on Mario.....

How's that new Optrel?????

Just got it today!! Have'nt tried it yet ..... :D

[ccm399]

Get out there man! :)