Power Steering: AGR vs Lee, 670 vs 800, 69 BBC Camaro, Review

[chr2002ca]

Just thought I'd share some information and experiences about these 2 different boxes since I've had some 'experience' with AGR and recently did a replacement to a Lee power steering box. I have a 69 Camaro with a ZZ454, NOS 69 BBC motor mounts and frame stands, and Hedman 2" primary headers(part number 66001).

AGR: 12:1 power steering box, 800 series Saginaw, custom billet AGR cap which is a bit thicker than the stock steel cap

AGR Install: In order to install this box, I had to ding/dimple my headers in 3 locations. I also had to grind down one of the edges of the billet cap and replace one of the bolts with an allen head bolt. This is the fault of my headers, not the box. Other than the headers and the tight tolerances, it bolts right in. I do have to loosen my headers and remove the pitman arm before installing or removing, and it must go in from underneath the car.

AGR Review: The first box I installed had way too much slop in it. It was scary to drive. I removed it and sent it to AGR where they inspected it and verified that it indeed had an 'unusual' amount of slop in it. They 'repaired it' and sent it back to me and I reinstalled it. It was indeed a bit tighter but after only 50 miles the input shaft seal blew out and spit fluid all over my ceramic coated headers. Lovely. This time I sent the box back to Summit and they sent me a new one. This '3rd' attempt was better, but there was still too much play in it, but I was so tired of dealing with the installation/removal of the thing that I just left it in place. This box was in use for about 1.5 years until I removed it last week. Also, the finish on the AGR box is non-existent, so it's a good idea to paint it before installing or else it will start rusting fairly quickly. Overall, I can't recommend AGR to anyone. Some people have had great luck with them(I'm jealous), but I had very bad luck. The good news is, I now have a great anchor for a canoe.

So I called Lee Manufacturing and actually drove to their shop and had a chat with them in person and saw their facilities. Very nice people. I ordered a new 670 power steering box, rag joint, and I had my pump re-valved to match their box. They said they'd be done by the following Friday and were finished a day early on Thursday(how often does that happen?). Including tax and shipping these parts back to my door, it was about $780 total. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Keep reading.

Lee Box: 670-series 12.7:1. Slightly smaller and lighter(about 6lbs) than the 800 series box.

Lee Install: Even though it's slightly smaller, it has 2 critical places where it actually sticks out farther than the 800 series causing it to fit worse than an 800 series box when using headers like mine. @#$@#$! I had to ding in my number 5 and number 7 primaries even further than I had to with the 800 series box. The dings are so bad that they are most likely restrictive, so next time I pull the engine I plan to remove the headers and have the number 5 and 7 primaries cut out and re-worked by a custom header shop. Other than the headers and the tight tolerances, it bolts right in. I do have to loosen my headers and remove the pitman arm before installing or removing, and it must go in from underneath the car. Same process as the 800 series box.

Lee Review: Now we're talking. Very tight steering. No play or slop. Very responsive. I should've gone with Lee in the first place. It's only been in for a few days now so I can't provide any long-term/reliability review at this point, but so far I'm very happy and wish I had used them in the first place. It would have saved me an extreme amount of trouble and frustration. Easily worth the extra money.

Header Recommendations: If you have a first-gen Camaro and a big block and want to run an 800 series or 670 series power steering box, I would NOT use the Hedmans or any other headers where the number 5 primary runs straight down. I would go with Lemons or some other header that has the number 5 primary loop over the number 7 primary, and the number 7 primary curves in more quickly after exiting the flange.

Hope this information helps the next guy. :thumbsup:

[T_Raven]

Thanks for the review! I'll definitely go with a Lee box when the time comes

[Flash68]

Chris -- very nice informative review. I really enjoy these posts. Thanks for posting.

My car came with the AGR box, and it seems fine -- but never experienced a Lee box so maybe I don't know what I am missing. :lol:

Are you running a stock or aftermarket PS pump? I need one and am debating what to get.

[DFRESH]

Chris -- very nice informative review. I really enjoy these posts. Thanks for posting.

My car came with the AGR box, and it seems fine -- but never experienced a Lee box so maybe I don't know what I am missing. :lol:

Are you running a stock or aftermarket PS pump? I need one and am debating what to get.

Dude, I hate to say it, but get the aftermarket pump with that box--it makes a difference---ask me how i know. Besides that, that stock one will not hold up forever under the kind of driving you will be doing.

[DFRESH]

That's awesome Chris. Glad to hear you got it replaced and the car feels much better. At last, some good news--other than the 50 HP you lost on the header pipe close outs, it sounds like it was a great change for the car. Just in time for RTTC!

Great review and write up also!

Doug

[chr2002ca]

That's awesome Chris. Glad to hear you got it replaced and the car feels much better. At last, some good news--other than the 50 HP you lost on the header pipe close outs, it sounds like it was a great change for the car. Just in time for RTTC!

Great review and write up also!

Doug

LOL. I sure hope I didn't lose 50HP! I have a mild cam so I'm thinking there is still enough pipe there to be plenty for the exhaust flow, but my next engine won't like it at all. The foundation of that new engine arrives to my doorstep today(f'ing Summit 15% discount!). Very exciting. :D Unfortunately, I won't have the funds to build it until later next year, so that's a long ways out. :( Definitely look forward to RTTC. I've changed a number of things on the car to make it exactly as fast as it was last year. :lol:

[chr2002ca]

Chris -- very nice informative review. I really enjoy these posts. Thanks for posting.

My car came with the AGR box, and it seems fine -- but never experienced a Lee box so maybe I don't know what I am missing. :lol:

Are you running a stock or aftermarket PS pump? I need one and am debating what to get.

I'm running a stock style Saginaw P style pump that I purchased from Summit(#SUM340103). It's a basic pump, nothing special. I asked Lee to rebuild to match the new box and to rebuild it so that it would take some occasional racing. So it's slightly lower pressure at low RPM which causes a little more effort in steering, but hopefully that saves me from having too much pressure at high RPM. I don't get over 5800RPMs so I'm not stressing the pump too much like some folks might.

I've talked with people that have had good luck with AGR and talked with people that had the same experience I did, so I think it's a bit random. Honestly, I don't think there should be that much randomness for that kind of money. When I spoke with Lee, they actually had a good explanation for why that randomness might occur with other vendors and it's why they completely disassemble and rebuild each unit they get from GM. Who knows, maybe a 4th try with AGR would've worked out, but it's such a pain in the arse for me to remove that box so I just wanted to try something new that might eliminate 'chance'. Each person I talked to that used Lee was very happy, so I gave them a shot. Now, if the Lee box blows out at RTTC, I'm going yank the whole steering system and just tie 2 ropes to the steering knuckles and go that route. :lol:

[GregWeld]

The valve is more "restrictive" than the ding in the header pipe...



:D

[Vegas69]

Gotta love the do overs...:willy: See you next month!

[chr2002ca]

The valve is more "restrictive" than the ding in the header pipe...



:D

You haven't seen the ding! Make that 'dings'. :lol: They're almost as bad as the ones in my head, and those have been restrictive all my life. :lol:

[chr2002ca]

Gotta love the do overs...:willy: See you next month!

Oh yah. 'Do over' is becoming the theme in my garage. Little things like the engine, transmission, and rear axle/suspension are next.

Look forward to seeing you and Payback next month for sure! :thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

That is why we sell the LEE Boxes! Tom has been designing and building power steering since before most of us ever herd of power steering, he is the one that builds steering boxes for Tony Stewart, among others, ALMS cars. Ford / GM sends stuff to him to evaluate. i am sure he has forgoten more than we will ever know.

[DFRESH]

So perhaps, "Do Over" is an option---although I did really like "Setback"---lol. That was a good one. Have you wife name it---or not.

Doug

[Matt@BOS]

You haven't seen the ding! Make that 'dings'. :lol: They're almost as bad as the ones in my head, and those have been restrictive all my life. :lol:

Dude, the dented headers would really bug me, especially because the driver and passenger sides would look noticeably different. Rather than spend the money having an exhaust shop cut and modify several of the primaries, might a suggest a cheaper alternative:

Exhibit A:
http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo103/69MSA/DSC_0655.jpg

As you will see from the picture above, it has already been made to match your driver's side header. If you are interested I am willing to negotiate a reasonable price.

Matt

[GregWeld]

Matt!!:thumbsup:

The perfect solution!

[Flash68]

I'm running a stock style Saginaw P style pump that I purchased from Summit(#SUM340103). It's a basic pump, nothing special. I asked Lee to rebuild to match the new box and to rebuild it so that it would take some occasional racing. So it's slightly lower pressure at low RPM which causes a little more effort in steering, but hopefully that saves me from having too much pressure at high RPM. I don't get over 5800RPMs so I'm not stressing the pump too much like some folks might.

I've talked with people that have had good luck with AGR and talked with people that had the same experience I did, so I think it's a bit random. Honestly, I don't think there should be that much randomness for that kind of money. When I spoke with Lee, they actually had a good explanation for why that randomness might occur with other vendors and it's why they completely disassemble and rebuild each unit they get from GM. Who knows, maybe a 4th try with AGR would've worked out, but it's such a pain in the arse for me to remove that box so I just wanted to try something new that might eliminate 'chance'. Each person I talked to that used Lee was very happy, so I gave them a shot. Now, if the Lee box blows out at RTTC, I'm going yank the whole steering system and just tie 2 ropes to the steering knuckles and go that route. :lol:

Thanks for the reply Chris. Since I have the AGR 12:1 box I think I'll try matching it with their upgraded pump. We'll know soon enough how it works!

Personally, I like Fumigator for your car name. :lol:

[ProTouring442]

I am a bit confused as to the need to have the pump"re-valved" to "match" the box. All of the effort valving is contained in the box, the only thing in the pump is the high-pressure bypass and any lowering of that value can cause a lack of assist when assist is most needed.

Or am I not understanding things here?

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[GregWeld]

I am a bit confused as to the need to have the pump"re-valved" to "match" the box. All of the effort valving is contained in the box, the only thing in the pump is the high-pressure bypass and any lowering of that value can cause a lack of assist when assist is most needed.

Or am I not understanding things here?

Shiny Side Up!
Bill


Bill -- Don't try to use a Chevy pump on a Ford rack.....

That's what's being changed -- the orifice in the pump on a Chevy is too large for the Ford rack...

Not sure what is what on these boxes and pumps being discussed in this thread - but obviously there is a mis-match that has to be "adjusted".

[Blake Foster]

you can effect the "FEEL" of the steering by playing with the flow valve. if the flow is too hight the steering will be really twitchy.
if you restrict the flow you can firm up the feel of the steering. it is especially easy to do with the TC serice pumps that come on the LS motors as the valve is rigth on top and easy to access and lots of companies have different orifice sized valves.

[ProTouring442]

you can effect the "FEEL" of the steering by playing with the flow valve. if the flow is too high the steering will be really twitchy.
if you restrict the flow you can firm up the feel of the steering. it is especially easy to do with the TC series pumps that come on the LS motors as the valve is right on top and easy to access and lots of companies have different orifice sized valves.

Hmmm... but "twitchiness" should be a function of the torsion valve, yes? Any unused volume should be dumped by the pressure relief valve...

I am still confused I think...

great, now I'm confused about being confused! :willy:

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[Blake Foster]

So what your saying is your totally confused???

ok i'm no power steering pump box "expert" but Tom Lee is, i have spent some time talkin......... no wait listening to Tom. most of the conversations i'm done about 4 minutes in but this guy knows what he is talking about, and what i got was the new TC pumps that GM uses and he also blueprints and flow tests are a high volume pump. the boxes are designed for a low volume pump like the original pump. and you can taylor the feel when using a TC pump by changing the flow valves. this is not to say the torsion bar and the way they blueprint the torsion bar doesn't have a major effect on the FEEL as well.

pretty sure i got that right. ???

[GregWeld]

I found the solution to all the power steering issues!



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Fun%20Fotos/Bicycle-1.jpg

[Blake Foster]

Greg you ALWAYS have the Answers :hail:
some day i want to grow up and be as smrt as you. lol

[GregWeld]

Greg you ALWAYS have the Answers :hail:
some day i want to grow up and be as smrt as you. lol

The ultimate K I S S


:rofl:

[DRJDVM's '69]

Greg, I didnt know you had a mustache when you were growing up?

[GregWeld]

Greg, I didnt know you had a mustache when you were growing up?

Me at 17..... what were you doing?:lol:



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Gregs%20old%20photos/BehindthewheelMcCulluchandWhipple.jpg

[ProTouring442]

So what your saying is your totally confused???

ok i'm no power steering pump box "expert" but Tom Lee is, i have spent some time talkin......... no wait listening to Tom. most of the conversations i'm done about 4 minutes in but this guy knows what he is talking about, and what i got was the new TC pumps that GM uses and he also blueprints and flow tests are a high volume pump. the boxes are designed for a low volume pump like the original pump. and you can taylor the feel when using a TC pump by changing the flow valves. this is not to say the torsion bar and the way they blueprint the torsion bar doesn't have a major effect on the FEEL as well.

pretty sure i got that right. ???

OK, cool... now I understand! Thanks for taking the time to get the straight dope!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[Denvervet]

Here's how much more room the lemon's headers give you with the Lee box.

[GregWeld]

Here's how much more room the lemon's headers give you with the Lee box.

NICE! 572 EFI - big azz headers and looks like you can change the plugs too!
What's not to like about that set up?!:lol:

[rwhite692]

Me at 17..... what were you doing?:lol:






I didn't realize that color photography had entered the mainsteam by that point in time....Was that taken w/a magnesium powder flash?

[chr2002ca]

Here's how much more room the lemon's headers give you with the Lee box.

Thanks for sharing that pic. I knew the Lemon's headers fit really good, but the visual verification is appreciated. Those primaries are even bigger than mine also. Are you able to remove those driver's side headers without loosening your steering box or pulling your engine up off the mount?

I'd go buy a set today if I could, but Lemon's wants about $1800+ for a set when you include coating and shipping, and then I'd also have to re-do my exhaust to match. I'm hoping/praying that I'll just be able to take my driver's side headers to a custom header shop and they can re-work the number 5 and 7 primaries to follow the same path the Lemon's do as seen in your photo. Then I'll just have them re-coated and bolt 'em back in. Next time I yank my engine I'm going to give that a try.

[Denvervet]

I haven't had to attempt to pull headers out yet and hope to never have to :thumbsup: My best guess is though it would take some wrangling to make it happen...
Plugs are easy to remove and the collectors tuck up nice and tight to body.:yes:

[CarlC]

Tom does great work.

I had him do some pump work for the Camaro back in 2003. The problem was fluid overheating on track days. Somewhere there is a photo of the reservoir where the neck is held on by bailing wire and silicone. It got so hot it de-soldered and dumped all the fluid on the track.

Tom's suggestion was to make the P-pump dry and make some internal modifications. Just like a fuel pump, pumping an excessive volume of steering fluid just makes heat and is of no useful purpose. Hence, the pump liner size was reduced to match the use of the car and a heavy duty input shaft installed. The output was set to 1450 psi @ 3gpm. At idle the system would occasionally groan and stutter when making a turn since the volume was reduced. When I say occasionally, maybe one out of 20 times the car was driven. On stock cars that do not see track duty the volume is higher in order to give good idle/parking performance. The tradeoff is heat.

In addition to the pump a KSE remote reservoir/filter was used as well as a cooler in the return line. Though the car has been through many changes, these two parts remain. The KSE part is outstanding.

Problem solved. At every track event since with PT-type cars there is usually a car using a standard P-pump/reservoir that fails, even ones that have a cooler. The integral reservoir is fine for a street car but for extended track use, it leave much to be desired.

One additional thing that Tom recommended, and it cured several problems, is using genuine GM power steering fluid. Hands down it de-aerates the fastest and operates the quietest.

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9186/0601ch07z1968camaro.jpg

[Track Junky]

Chris, just my $.02 and way to late, but there are other options that would have given you header clearance such as a bolt on rack-n-pinion set up. I went with the Flaming River rack. Aside from avoiding clearance issues the weight savings is substantial.

As far as power steering pumps go, I used a KRC aluminum set up with seperate resevoir and I have been running time trials and track days on road courses with this set up since 2002. Whats nice about the KRC pumps is you can adjust the feel of the steering by changing the flow valve on the out put side of the pump.

I think the total set up cost me about $1400.

Once again, just my $.02

[chr2002ca]

Chris, just my $.02 and way to late, but there are other options that would have given you header clearance such as a bolt on rack-n-pinion set up. I went with the Flaming River rack. Aside from avoiding clearance issues the weight savings is substantial.

As far as power steering pumps go, I used a KRC aluminum set up with seperate resevoir and I have been running time trials and track days on road courses with this set up since 2002. Whats nice about the KRC pumps is you can adjust the feel of the steering by changing the flow valve on the out put side of the pump.

I think the total set up cost me about $1400.

Once again, just my $.02

Thanks for the friendly advice Gaetano. Trust me, I have considered the rack solution many times considering all the trouble I have had with these boxes and getting them to fit. I guess I'm just working my way up the food chain. I went with the $600 Lee box versus the $1400 rack strictly based on price. Also, my front end is a bit low and I'm a little nervous about how the rack and mounting bracket hang down below the frame, but I do like the idea of the further weight loss. I thought the new Lee 600 series box would actually fit better because it was smaller, but once I tried to mount it, I learned it actually fit worse, so I was kinda stuck at that point with just having to ding the headers a little more. I've been driving the car around the past few days and I really love the feel of my steering now, so if I can just get those 2 primaries on my headers re-worked, I think I'll be good to go. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've said that.

[Blake Foster]

ATS/Lee also sell the TC series (ie new Corvette) pumps with remote resevoirs that are all blue printed. new seals,bearings, and flow tested. Tom also recomended a cooler on ResurreXion with an inline filter the filter has some effect on the pump pulse waves that can smooth out the system flow,also his resevoirs are designed like a drysump tank, and on my car there is NO Airation!!! no whine and it primed in about 20 seconds spinning the pump with a drill.
if you are having power steering problems give me a call and i can talk to Tom and it will get fixed.

[momsnova]

Just thought I'd share some information and experiences about these 2 different boxes since I've had some 'experience' with AGR and recently did a replacement to a Lee power steering box. I have a 69 Camaro with a ZZ454, NOS 69 BBC motor mounts and frame stands, and Hedman 2" primary headers(part number 66001).

AGR: 12:1 power steering box, 800 series Saginaw, custom billet AGR cap which is a bit thicker than the stock steel cap

AGR Install: In order to install this box, I had to ding/dimple my headers in 3 locations. I also had to grind down one of the edges of the billet cap and replace one of the bolts with an allen head bolt. This is the fault of my headers, not the box. Other than the headers and the tight tolerances, it bolts right in. I do have to loosen my headers and remove the pitman arm before installing or removing, and it must go in from underneath the car.

AGR Review: The first box I installed had way too much slop in it. It was scary to drive. I removed it and sent it to AGR where they inspected it and verified that it indeed had an 'unusual' amount of slop in it. They 'repaired it' and sent it back to me and I reinstalled it. It was indeed a bit tighter but after only 50 miles the input shaft seal blew out and spit fluid all over my ceramic coated headers. Lovely. This time I sent the box back to Summit and they sent me a new one. This '3rd' attempt was better, but there was still too much play in it, but I was so tired of dealing with the installation/removal of the thing that I just left it in place. This box was in use for about 1.5 years until I removed it last week. Also, the finish on the AGR box is non-existent, so it's a good idea to paint it before installing or else it will start rusting fairly quickly. Overall, I can't recommend AGR to anyone. Some people have had great luck with them(I'm jealous), but I had very bad luck. The good news is, I now have a great anchor for a canoe.

So I called Lee Manufacturing and actually drove to their shop and had a chat with them in person and saw their facilities. Very nice people. I ordered a new 670 power steering box, rag joint, and I had my pump re-valved to match their box. They said they'd be done by the following Friday and were finished a day early on Thursday(how often does that happen?). Including tax and shipping these parts back to my door, it was about $780 total. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Keep reading.

Lee Box: 670-series 12.7:1. Slightly smaller and lighter(about 6lbs) than the 800 series box.

Lee Install: Even though it's slightly smaller, it has 2 critical places where it actually sticks out farther than the 800 series causing it to fit worse than an 800 series box when using headers like mine. @#$@#$! I had to ding in my number 5 and number 7 primaries even further than I had to with the 800 series box. The dings are so bad that they are most likely restrictive, so next time I pull the engine I plan to remove the headers and have the number 5 and 7 primaries cut out and re-worked by a custom header shop. Other than the headers and the tight tolerances, it bolts right in. I do have to loosen my headers and remove the pitman arm before installing or removing, and it must go in from underneath the car. Same process as the 800 series box.

Lee Review: Now we're talking. Very tight steering. No play or slop. Very responsive. I should've gone with Lee in the first place. It's only been in for a few days now so I can't provide any long-term/reliability review at this point, but so far I'm very happy and wish I had used them in the first place. It would have saved me an extreme amount of trouble and frustration. Easily worth the extra money.

Header Recommendations: If you have a first-gen Camaro and a big block and want to run an 800 series or 670 series power steering box, I would NOT use the Hedmans or any other headers where the number 5 primary runs straight down. I would go with Lemons or some other header that has the number 5 primary loop over the number 7 primary, and the number 7 primary curves in more quickly after exiting the flange.

Hope this information helps the next guy. :thumbsup:

Chris,

I am in the process of finishing up a power steering install on my 70 Nova. I purchased a Turn One/DSE 670 steering box along with a DSE remote reservoir PS pump. Like you I had to make room for the steering box since I did not want to replace my headers and re-work my exhaust. Since the pressure and return lines are so close to the header pipes did you have to install a fluid cooler to keep temps in check. Thanks in advance for your help!