AWD front end parts

[Motorcitydak]

Im currently looking into making my car AWD, Im just having a hard time figuring out what parts would be good to run. Ive looked over that Camaro build website and the guy says he is going to use a Cadillac STS front diff and I think c5 knuckles and hubs then run custom half shafts.

I know that the c5/c6 knuckles and hubs are good pieces and that the front hubs can accept a shaft since they are the same as the rear ones. What I do not like about them is that the upper ball joint is built into the knuckle. I want to run nascar type arms that have the ball joints in the arms. Does anyone have a good recommendation for some front knuckles that I could use? Im going to run 18x10's w/ 6.6in BS and 315 30 tires.

What Ive also been trying to figure out is what type of diff is the one from the STS? Is it based on a Dana 44 or something like that? I found one locally I can pick up with 0 miles on it with a 3.23 gear for $250. Ive also read online that the STS-V comes with 320hp out of the box but can be brought up to 600 or so with mods. Would this diff be able to handle that kind of power? My car will be somewhere in the 4-500hp and tq range.

[Bowtieracing]

Really intresting project.Remainds me Stielow buildt Quadra Duce. I would really like to see more custom built awd g-machines.

Could you take the upper ball joints away and machine billet bushing with correct tapper in C5 spindle.

[Motorcitydak]

Well anything is possible but I really do not want to have to do all that just to get em to work. Especially with the price of em, I do not want to have to do anything else to make em work for me. I figure it would be best to keep looking for other pieces to use. One huge problem Im running into is that most auctions on ebay do not even show a real pic of the part thats listed, just a random stock photo. Id also like to get diagrams for the parts since so I could know the ball joint angle and check my scrub radius on paper

[Ketzer]

I don't have an answer but like what you're talking about!
My current project is a 54 belair wagon with the complete Trailblazer SS frame and running gear. I don't know how strong the Trailblazer AWD set-up is but know that the guys at the strip are going 10's before breakage. That takes some serious hp.
I bet Marty would know, I think he is pretty well versed in GM AWD units.

Jeff-

[Motorcitydak]

Well after doing more looking around, I noticed that the C4 front knuckles look a lot like the C5/6 knuckles....except that the upper ball joint is not captured in the knuckle. Im sure that there are some dimensional changes in there too but it may work for me. I can just put some C4 hubs in there I think and run the front CV shafts to that.

Here is a C4 knuckle
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/91-92-93-94-95-96-Corvette-Steering-Knuckle-ZR1-LT1-C4-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZModelQ3aCorvetteQQhashZite m25600887afQQitemZ160524961711QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5f TruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_500wt_1182

That one has the hub area wide open, Ive also seen ones that are closed off. Could I just cut that hole open if needed?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/88-89-90-Corvette-Steering-Knuckle-ZR1-C4-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZModelQ3aCorvetteQQhashZite m25600887c0QQitemZ160524961728QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5f TruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_500wt_1182

and the C5 stuff
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-2004-C5-Corvette-Left-Front-Knuckle-Right-Rear-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2eae7c92a3QQitemZ20049 5895203QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries#ht_2260wt_941

[wellis77]

I love the direction you are taking this project. This is going to be great!

[Payton King]

But Holden in Au makes an el camino looking car/truck that runs a LS motor and it is all wheel drive. That transaxle would be nice to use.

[RS_Customs]

Not sure your going to be able to get the c4 knuckles to work for all wheel drive. And I def would not cut the backside open on the closed ones for strength issues. The c4 and c5/6 knuckles run completely different hub packs. I haven't put the c4 spindle and the s-10/blazer hub packs near each other, but that may be a possibility if you can check the bolt pattern and other clearances. Or you may just look at the s-10/blazer front spindles for the 4x4's. I believe they were the same spindle assembly for the syclone, typhoons and bravada awd vehicles.

I have not looked into the sts front diff yet, but there use to be a couple options out there, one was taking the 4x4 s-10 front axle diff setup and you have to swap out a couple parts to make it awd(there is tech over on syty.net on that). I was originally looking at a ford front axle so to have more gear options. And if you haven't found out yet, the gears are diffrent for the front diff typically. Some of the srt8 jeep cherokees are awd, so that may also open up some possibilities.

The hardest part is trying to not have a lot of specially built parts and to build it strong.

Not sure what trans you were looking to use, but auto is typically the easiest way to go without having to have custom machined adapters. Pretty much awd vehicles are auto that you are going to be sourcing parts from. The Audi, Subaru and others that have manual option have a far forward mounting engine with a crazy looking trans axle design that would kill the weight balance in most projects like this. Their front axle comes out of the front of the trans about 6-12" or so behind the motor, think about where your front axle is and how far forward the motor would sit. Chevy had the option on the silverado truck and trailblazer ss more recently for awd along with the cadillac ext truck. They hung a awd viscous coupler transfer case off the back of the trans. It's in the same area as the 4x4 transfer case but instead of being gear mesh driven, it is chain and fluid.

Not sure if any of this helps, but it some of the stuff I have found a while back when I was researching, lol .

Robert

[syborg tt]

okay so what is the car that you are converting to AWD

do a search for AWD Vette ( in Poland ) - tons of pics on the build

used a Syclone transfer case and syclone front diff

Upper and lower controls arms from Mike Lee at Race Proven Motors

Same arms that Troy used on the 49 AWD Delivery Sedan.

and yep the Quadra Duece was AWD from a Syclone.

[exwestracer]

Coleman Racing Products makes a "build-up" front knuckle that is basically just a flat plate that you add ball joint bosses, spindle, steeering arms, etc. to. Combining that with a bolt-in S10 front drive hub should allow you to set it up however you want.
I can't see you wanting enough torque split to the front to blow up a later model S10 diff...but I could be wrong.

[Motorcitydak]

Thanks for the replys guys.

Im resistant to use a transaxle because then that located the engine way forward in the car. I want it actually to end up being mid engine. Im planning to cut the firewall and push it back around 10 inches. Im not running anything under the dash board (HVAC) so I figure why not put the engine there.

i was concerned with cutting the closed knuckles open for strength reasons, I just was not sure if they were the same thing except one of em was cut by the factory and one was not.

I still want to run a 5x4.5 bolt pattern so any hub that I run, Im planning to have redrilled since most chevy parts ran 4.75.

Is the geometry of the s-10/blazer knuckle good enough to run in a car like Im building? Id really like to get the best and lightest parts I can afford.

Im not trying to use any special one-off parts for this build if I can afford it. The STS diff is made by getrag but Im not sure what size the ring gear is. The one I found has a 3.23 which should work out great for me.

The trans I want to use is the 545rfe 5 speed auto that comes stock behind the 5.7 Hemi which I also want to run. I have one sitting around rite now from a 4x4. Im trying to just bolt a gutted transfer case to it to send power to the front. The trans is rather large and heavy but at least all that weight will be behind the motor and very low to the ground, helping out weight distribution.

The car Im building is a '68 Dodge Charger. Its pretty much a bare shell rite now so I have a blank canvass to build from. Im obviously not doing a typical resto on it. This car is getting to most ridiculous parts I can think of. I have a 3 link rear full floating 9 inch already in place minus coilovers, watts link and sway bar. I just bought lower control arms which are chromo pieces from a nascar, uppers will come from the same genre. I want it to be built to excess in terms of performance. I want it to be an engineering exercise I can drive.

Ive seen that AWD Vette, it looked just a vette with the front end of an S-10 frame welded onto it. Its neat but not what Im going for. Obviously I want it to be as light as possible and have the best weight distribution I can build. The STS front diff is a very compact unit which will not take up much space and have minimal weigh impact. Then just the CV shafts that plug into what ever knuckle/hub I can figure out to run. One good thing to see is that the vette had iirc a 7.2 inch front ring gear which was able to live with all that power.

Ill look into those parts from coleman, thanks for the tip. The motor Im running will have 4-500hp/tq, I figure that the front end parts should be able to live with half of that. I see FWD cars with 300hp w/o many problems.

[ProTouring442]

Isn't there an AWD version of the Chrysler 300? Perhaps there would be parts there worth looking into?

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[Motorcitydak]

Yep, there is. That was my first place to start looking for parts. Ive been trying to find em for it and for the life of me, I cannot. I do know a few things about it. The front diff goes thru the oil pan. Also, the 5.7 Hem in the LX platform(300, charger, est...) gets a mercedes transmission. A Wa580 or something like that. Its overly complicated and not conducive to modifications or being swapped into some other platform. From what I can find, the transfer case in those cars may be the same as the ones in the SRT-8 jeep. A NV147. That is also an overly complicated piece that will not bolt up to my transmission. I need a NV231 or something similar to use in my car

[Motorcitydak]

Here is the STS diff im getting

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/motorcitydak/DSC00182.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g221/motorcitydak/DSC00183-1.jpg

Like I said, its very compact and will be easy to build around/into the car. Im getting the driveshaft with it and will still have to figure out what CV shafts to run. Most likely I will just do the STS shafts and have to get em modified for lenght

[exwestracer]

If finding parts or using that Getrag diff proves difficult, keep in mind that you can use any IRS rear diff by running it upside down (high pinion). Some factory 4wd applications actually used this setup without any oiling problems.

Not sure what you mean by cutting open a closed knuckle... If you're referring to the 4wd front axle "closed knuckle", they are NOT designed to run open. They would be full of oil or grease, and have an open CV (commonly known as a Birfield joint) at the steering axis. I don't think you could get a closed CV type 1/2 shaft in there without some MAJOR re-engineering. That's why I like the S10 hub for this kind of thing...just bolt it on and go.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

What I do not like about them is that the upper ball joint is built into the knuckle. I want to run nascar type arms that have the ball joints in the arms.

couldn't you just fabricate a plate that bolts in place of the upper ball joint with a tapered hole to fit the upper ball joint that is on the c6 knuckle?

[Motorcitydak]

It looks like Im going to have to do that. I was about to buy a c4 knuckle but the hub is held on with a rectangular 4 bolt flange and they are different front to rear. On the c6 parts, they used just about the same hub front and rear. The knuckles have a much larger hole in the center and the hubs use a triangular 3 bolt patter. Im not completely sure on this one, but I think I can take the front STS hub and just bolt it rite into the c5/c6 knuckle. They both appear to be the same size and bolt pattern but I am not positive. That would solve the hub and knuckle issue so then I will just have to figure out something else to do for the UCA.

Im thinking I can use a UCA with the bolt in ball joint. Then maybe sandwich that with 2 pieces of 1/4 steel? AFCO makes em with a 3/8 thick bolt plate so I could also to weld in a 3/8 circle to one of the sandwich plates. That would give the ball joint 7/8 of steel in the UCA to hold it in. Keeping in mind that the UCA does not see all that much force anyways, I think that would be more than enough.

[exwestracer]

It looks like Im going to have to do that. I was about to buy a c4 knuckle but the hub is held on with a rectangular 4 bolt flange and they are different front to rear. On the c6 parts, they used just about the same hub front and rear. The knuckles have a much larger hole in the center and the hubs use a triangular 3 bolt patter. Im not completely sure on this one, but I think I can take the front STS hub and just bolt it rite into the c5/c6 knuckle. They both appear to be the same size and bolt pattern but I am not positive. That would solve the hub and knuckle issue so then I will just have to figure out something else to do for the UCA.

Im thinking I can use a UCA with the bolt in ball joint. Then maybe sandwich that with 2 pieces of 1/4 steel? AFCO makes em with a 3/8 thick bolt plate so I could also to weld in a 3/8 circle to one of the sandwich plates. That would give the ball joint 7/8 of steel in the UCA to hold it in. Keeping in mind that the UCA does not see all that much force anyways, I think that would be more than enough.

Try to find a UCA that has the tubes running out past the ball joint centerline, rather than the plate hanging off the end. You don't need such a massive plate if the side loads are going straight into the tubes.

[Motorcitydak]

Who makes control arms like that? I just looked at the AFCO site and was going to get em thru there. Is there somewhere better?

Also, the AFCO ones have a 3/16 flange. Not 3/8 like I thought for some reason. I still could use 2 1/4 plates on that and the 3/16 in the middle giving the ball joint 11/16 of steel to ride in

[exwestracer]

Who makes control arms like that? I just looked at the AFCO site and was going to get em thru there. Is there somewhere better?

Also, the AFCO ones have a 3/16 flange. Not 3/8 like I thought for some reason. I still could use 2 1/4 plates on that and the 3/16 in the middle giving the ball joint 11/16 of steel to ride in

Just a couple examples.

http://www.howeracing.com/p-7564-cross-shaft-type-4-bolt.aspx

http://www.detroitspeed.com/1967-1969%20Camaro-Firebird-Products/030101-uca.html

I'm sure there are others out there.

(Actually I just went back and looked at AFCOs arm. They are a better design than they used to be. I haven't dealt with theirs in about 10 years. Those shouldn't need a lot of reinforcing either...)