Speed Tech or Art Morrison, DSE 69 Camaro Frame

[snappytravis]

I have been doing a little research on the subframes, I have also looked at the full frames available, Would like a little advice on What is working good, I know DSE is a superior product not to sure how long Speed Tech has been around? and AME what are the pros and cons of both products I don't want something that is going to be a nightmare installation and realize that there will be labor involved Like the c6 vette stuff from AME, seems that it would be easier to repair if parts needed, but may be wrong, Speed Tech looks that they are pretty much order from them if you need parts, I would like to get something ordered before end of year If anyone has used or installed these products let me know what you think thanks for your time.

[latzoo]

Speedtech all the way..

[DOOM]

Alots going to depend on your budget.. I would say if your budget is big DSE would be the way to go. But If your looking for the best bang for your buck SpeedTech is the way to go hands down in my opinion. Very well made,installation should not be an issue. Take a look at how well Blake's Nova did at the Optima Challenge this year ,that should help answer some questions for you. Blake spends alot of time on this forum and I think thats great, He's never hard to find to answer any of your questions!!:lateral:

[Blake Foster]

Thanks Mario.
bang for YOUR buck.

any questions just ask

[Vegas69]

Call them all yourself and form your own opinion. DSE has done tons of real world testing and I've always been happy with their products. The boys at Speedtech are a smaller operation but genuinely give a **** about their customers. They are also actively testing their products and they work well.

[BBC69Camaro]

I think for the AME full frame you have to build your own floors. I don't think the DSE and Speedtech offerings require such extensive fabrication, might keep that in mind. But looking at the AME offering it really does look like a piece of car guy art.

Frankly I don't think you can wrong with any of the three, all are quality pieces with great companies to back up their products.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I am so happy we sell all 3 brands! For the longest time I would say DSE and Art Morrison are top of the heap and Speedtech was a great "bang for the buck". but based on current performance reports, and my own personal experience, Speedtech is now grouped right up there with the AME and DSE.

Your welcome to call and discuss products, we have at least one of each in our shop today in projects.

[realcoray]

I think for the AME full frame you have to build your own floors. I don't think the DSE and Speedtech offerings require such extensive fabrication, might keep that in mind. But looking at the AME offering it really does look like a piece of car guy art.

Frankly I don't think you can wrong with any of the three, all are quality pieces with great companies to back up their products.

He's talking about the bolt in frame I assume.

Pros and cons? With the speed tech you can have a stock like spindle and keep the wheel size down if that's something that matters to you, say you didn't want to have to buy expensive 17"+ wheels. On the other hand, good brakes themselves probably cost more for stock spindles than a basic C5 kit would.

I imagine the speed tech weighs slightly more because the morrison uses aluminum corvette components. Both probably let you run wider wheel/tire up front but the speed tech may let you run wider (one of the general strengths of their control arms).

Speed techs nova just did pretty good in the street car invitational, although as others have noted there probably isn't such a large difference between the top companies that anyone but a professional driver would be able to tell.

[DOOM]

Thanks Mario.
bang for YOUR buck.

any questions just ask

Blake.... You know I did'nt mean any disrespect by that comment.... I did'nt mean for it to come out that way....

[snappytravis]

Thanks for your replys guys, there are a lot of choices out there and I don't want to buy something then call for support and have to push 1, Frank at prodigy I will give you a call today if that's okay need to talk to you about a.c. as well. thanks again for good advice. I think every company I call will tell me theres is the best. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

Thanks for your replys guys, there are a lot of choices out there and I don't want to buy something then call for support and have to push 1, Frank at prodigy I will give you a call today if that's okay need to talk to you about a.c. as well. thanks again for good advice. I think every company I call will tell me theres is the best. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Your last sentence said it all. Talk is cheap. Look at real world driving events, testing, customer service replies from customers. Once you compare apples to apples the answer will be glaring right at you. Good luck with the project.

[Blake Foster]

Blake.... You know I did'nt mean any disrespect by that comment.... I did'nt mean for it to come out that way....

Didn't take it out of context. i was thanking you for keeping us at the top of your list.

[youthpastor]

Speedtech is a quality product and super easy to install- front or rear systems- a major improvement over stock stuff and it just flat works!

[Ron in SoCal]

Your last sentence said it all. Talk is cheap. Look at real world driving events, testing, customer service replies from customers. Once you compare apples to apples the answer will be glaring right at you. Good luck with the project.

I went through this decision a year ago. At that time, Frank said to me, "they all have great geometery and top 5 cars at RTTH are within a couple 10ths of a second. (to be fair, we we're actually talking about front and rear suspension at this point in the conversation, but the point made is the same). It all comes down to the driver and your car's set up." And he's right. All these vendors make great, track proven products. A front sub from any of them will require just about the same install. To me, DSE has the hydroformed sub that looks OEM. AME has the fabricated look and SpeedTech arms and sub just look killer (welcome Blake :lol: ), so it comes down to personal preference. From a price point, DSE costs a little more than AME, SpeedTech a bit less than AME and they're all good companies that are track/street tested. So pick one and don't look back. You'll love it...:thumbsup:

[strtlegal]

Blakes only down fall is he in Canadian..Eh?

Your Welcom Blake :lol:

[Blake Foster]

And your point is???? :thumbsup:

[6spdcamaro]

Detroit speed is the best of the best. They win every single event that they attend... by a lot. Their test cars have seen 10's of thousands of miles on the street and track. The geometry, quality, customer service, and components from them are the best in the industry. It is a lot of money, but you get what you pay for.

The Art Morrison piece is also very nice. It is close behind the DSE frame for close to the same money. One thing about the Morrison frame that I do not like is (correct me if i'm wrong) that in the Corvette control arms, they retain the stock soft rubber bushings while detroit speed utilizes delrin (no deflection).

The Speedtech subframe is also a good choice for certain applications and their nova has seen quite a bit of track time recently. It's best (and worst) feature is that it allows you to use suspension components you may have already bought before you decided to go aftermarket. This feature comes at a big cost. The speedtech subframe, unlike the DSE and AME, has the same geometry as a modded stock subframe. They restricted themselves to utilizing stock spindles, stock pickup points and control arm lengths with exception to the "built in g-mod", which costs $18 on a stock sub. There is a lot of variables in an independent suspension, and these restrictions require that sacrifices be made somewhere. The Speedtech subframe is the "best" bang for your buck, but that is because it is based on a stock subframe, which really is the best for the money. I'm not trying to brainlessly bash speedtech, because they are a good company, with good products and service, it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.

I know you didn't mention this in your original posting, but it is a valid option so I thought I would point it out.
Jakes Rod Shop sell a bolt in subframe that has scratch designed geometry, c6 spindles, and high quality custom valved bilstien coil overs. His cars are also tracked on a regular basis and is very competitive. He runs right behind DSE cars with about 150hp less. Good components, good track record, and at $6000 it's priced slightly lower than the DSE and AME pieces.

[Teetoe_Jones]

Detroit speed is the best of the best. They win every single event that they attend... by a lot. Their test cars have seen 10's of thousands of miles on the street and track. The geometry, quality, customer service, and components from them are the best in the industry. It is a lot of money, but you get what you pay for.

They restricted themselves to utilizing stock spindles, stock pickup points and control arm lengths with exception to the "built in g-mod", which costs $18 on a stock sub. There is a lot of variables in an independent suspension, and these restrictions require that sacrifices be made somewhere. The Speedtech subframe is the "best" bang for your buck, but that is because it is based on a stock subframe, which really is the best for the money. I'm not trying to brainlessly bash speedtech, because they are a good company, with good products and service, it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.



Not technically accurate. The geometry of a DSE based subframe is great; the product is great, the service is great. But the Speedtech frame with the ATS tall spindle will exceed the geometry available in both the DSE and AME frames by a good margin. The amount of negative camber gain per inch of suspension travel is possible to exceed even the most aggressive settings on either DSE or AME frames. Add in the revised bumpsteer, and amount of caster and the frame is just as good as any offering from the big name guys.

Regardless it all comes down to driver. Look at the One Lap Camaro with David Pozzi behind the wheel. It beat up and bested DSE framed cars many, many, times over; it was all done with a modified factory subframe and a tall spindle.

Tyler

[Blake Foster]

The Speedtech subframe is also a good choice for certain applications and their nova has seen quite a bit of track time recently. It's best (and worst) feature is that it allows you to use suspension components you may have already bought before you decided to go aftermarket. This feature comes at a big cost. The speedtech subframe, unlike the DSE and AME, has the same geometry as a modded stock subframe. They restricted themselves to utilizing stock spindles, stock pickup points and control arm lengths with exception to the "built in g-mod", which costs $18 on a stock sub. There is a lot of variables in an independent suspension, and these restrictions require that sacrifices be made somewhere. The Speedtech subframe is the "best" bang for your buck, but that is because it is based on a stock subframe, which really is the best for the money. I'm not trying to brainlessly bash speedtech, because they are a good company, with good products and service, it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.

Just wanted to add a couple things to this. Even tho the Speedtech sub uses stock pick up points . the main rails and arms have been redesigned to give clearance for up to 10" wide front rims and include Delrin bushings and stainless steel X Shafts. You have the option of using the stock spindle with or with out the G mod. and the ability to tune the camber curve anywhere in between the 2 points, also with the addition of the Tall AFX spindle you get a camber curve that is as good as any. you also get coil over shocks with a revised motion ratio. the sub is much more ridgid than the stock sub ever was as well as being lighter by about 15 lbs (not much but lighter all the same)
I don't understand what you mean when you say it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.

You mention that sacrifices must be made, be assured that DSE and AME also made sacrifices in their design.

Just as a compairson the DSE 2 gen was only 0.7 seconds quicker than the Speedtech Nova on the auto X at the Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational and that was the FIRST time our car had actually been timed arround an auto X.

Another thing to consider is what is the potential customer doing with the car and what is the budget?

Thank you for the compliment by the way.

Hope this adds to the topic.

[6spdcamaro]

Not technically accurate. The geometry of a DSE based subframe is great; the product is great, the service is great. But the Speedtech frame with the ATS tall spindle will exceed the geometry available in both the DSE and AME frames by a good margin. The amount of negative camber gain per inch of suspension travel is possible to exceed even the most aggressive settings on either DSE or AME frames. Add in the revised bumpsteer, and amount of caster and the frame is just as good as any offering from the big name guys.

Regardless it all comes down to driver. Look at the One Lap Camaro with David Pozzi behind the wheel. It beat up and bested DSE framed cars many, many, times over; it was all done with a modified factory subframe and a tall spindle.

Tyler

Tyler,
I wanted to say first that i'm fairly new to suspension geometry, but i'm learning, so feel free to correct me if anything I say is wrong. I'm here to learn just like the OP.
I remember reading a post a while ago, and I can't seem to find it now, by marcus from sc&c. He had posted the camber gain numbers of a few different combinations, and I believe that the ATS spindle when coupled with the guldstrand mod had a camber gain of about .85* per inch (again, correct me if i'm wrong). While more camber gain is generally desirable, like everything it is a compromise. What does this camber gain do to the roll center height, and the lateral roll center migration? How much does it shorten the instant center?
When I mentioned the DSE, AME, and JRS frames have better geometry I was talking about more than the Camber (gain), caster and bump steer. There are a lot of other things like the instant center, king ping inclination, scrub radius, side scrub, RC, roll center migration, anti-dive etc. that effect the stability and handling of a car.
I honestly don't know the numbers of the different subframes, so a lot of this is based on assumption.
And I agree about the driver being more important.

I appreciate the help.
:cheers:

[6spdcamaro]

The Speedtech subframe is also a good choice for certain applications and their nova has seen quite a bit of track time recently. It's best (and worst) feature is that it allows you to use suspension components you may have already bought before you decided to go aftermarket. This feature comes at a big cost. The speedtech subframe, unlike the DSE and AME, has the same geometry as a modded stock subframe. They restricted themselves to utilizing stock spindles, stock pickup points and control arm lengths with exception to the "built in g-mod", which costs $18 on a stock sub. There is a lot of variables in an independent suspension, and these restrictions require that sacrifices be made somewhere. The Speedtech subframe is the "best" bang for your buck, but that is because it is based on a stock subframe, which really is the best for the money. I'm not trying to brainlessly bash speedtech, because they are a good company, with good products and service, it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.

Just wanted to add a couple things to this. Even tho the Speedtech sub uses stock pick up points . the main rails and arms have been redesigned to give clearance for up to 10" wide front rims and include Delrin bushings and stainless steel X Shafts. You have the option of using the stock spindle with or with out the G mod. and the ability to tune the camber curve anywhere in between the 2 points, also with the addition of the Tall AFX spindle you get a camber curve that is as good as any. you also get coil over shocks with a revised motion ratio. the sub is much more ridgid than the stock sub ever was as well as being lighter by about 15 lbs (not much but lighter all the same)
I don't understand what you mean when you say it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.

You mention that sacrifices must be made, be assured that DSE and AME also made sacrifices in their design.

Just as a compairson the DSE 2 gen was only 0.7 seconds quicker than the Speedtech Nova on the auto X at the Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational and that was the FIRST time our car had actually been timed arround an auto X.

Another thing to consider is what is the potential customer doing with the car and what is the budget?

Thank you for the compliment by the way.

Hope this adds to the topic.

Blake,
Thanks for the response. Sorry, I guess that comment in blue was out of line and misleading, considering I don't actually know how the geometry compares. Hopefully you guys understand I wasn't trying to bash you, I just felt the stock pickup points were a big restriction (maybe more than in reality) in designing your subframe.

[Blake Foster]

No worries Ken
Just need to make sure people don't get the wrong or misleading information when it comes to comparing product.

[wrighton]

Why were on this subject. I have not bought my subframe yet. And been reading and studying for a very long time. I recently emailed speedtech and received a qoute and info the same day. I appreaciated the fast response. Also I am here in WA state so shipping will be less. Something to consider in the price factor.

Now if someone will steer me in how wide a front wheel I can run with correct backspacing and tire size. I want to run a 18x9 f and 18x11 R with stock sub and speed tech high clearance arms and tall spindles. ? Possible? 8.5 f?

:thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

what year car?
let me get back to you with the EXACT fitment you need for that.

[Blake Foster]

Wheel size on a 68 that can be run is 18x9 6.375 BS this is on a stock sub with tall spindles and hight clearance upper arms.
but having said that this is ABSOLUTLY PUSHING THE LIMIT, and i will not be responsible for them rubbing if you go this route. the stock steering arm will be your buggest issue. the unisteer rack has a shorter steering arm and slightly smaller outer tie rod end, for what thats worth.

[youthpastor]

Wheel size on a 68 that can be run is 18x9 6.375 BS this is on a stock sub with tall spindles and hight clearance upper arms.
but having said that this is ABSOLUTLY PUSHING THE LIMIT, and i will not be responsible for them rubbing if you go this route. the stock steering arm will be your buggest issue. the unisteer rack has a shorter steering arm and slightly smaller outer tie rod end, for what thats worth.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg268/LS168/210.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg268/LS168/209.jpg

here is a Speedtech set-up- tall spindle- Unisteer with an 18x9 and 6in BS with a 275- I bolted the wheel on last night and was amazed at the turning radius- I would say the first thing that would contact is the upper A-Arm at the ball-joint with a tall spindle- If you are interested I can get some pics tonight from above showing lock to lock- Chris

[Blake Foster]

And there is the differance between the 2 tall spindles, the ATS is 7/8" drop which helps in the upper ball joint area, i run 18 x9.5 with 6.5 bs and have NO issues with contact once the steering stops are adjusted.

Chris it looks like the car is comming together.

[awr68]

Looking good Chris!

Blake, I have an 18x9 with IIRC a 5.625" BS...hope it all works out! Pete hasn't said anything about clearance issues...but it isn't aligned either. I was working off the trusty 8" with 5" BS when I ordered the wheels...as long as the new track width is the same as stock I should be golden! Your thoughs?

[Blake Foster]

Track width is the same as stock, you should be close??? but that is what Negative camber is for:unibrow:

[Musclerodz]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg268/LS168/210.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg268/LS168/209.jpg

here is a Speedtech set-up- tall spindle- Unisteer with an 18x9 and 6in BS with a 275- I bolted the wheel on last night and was amazed at the turning radius- I would say the first thing that would contact is the upper A-Arm at the ball-joint with a tall spindle- If you are interested I can get some pics tonight from above showing lock to lock- Chrisit does not look like you have the rack and steering arms installed. With those installed, you will clear everything on the insde. I just rehooped a set of Boze wheels to 6.5 bs that we originally spec'd for a stock sub, then changed to Speedtech sub and was able to suck the wheels in further to give us more clearance

[Musclerodz]

Looking good Chris!

Blake, I have an 18x9 with IIRC a 5.625" BS...hope it all works out! Pete hasn't said anything about clearance issues...but it isn't aligned either. I was working off the trusty 8" with 5" BS when I ordered the wheels...as long as the new track width is the same as stock I should be golden! Your thoughs?I think your gonna have rub issues when you get the car down to ride height. I had issues with 5.5 bs, but I had planned to cut the fender anyways.

[bdahlg68]

This thread is swaying me towards the Speedtech rear.

Frank / Blake - any chance to get a quote for a complete torque tube with 9" rear setup shipped to 48187? vehicle is a 1968 Firebird.

Thanks!

[awr68]

I think your gonna have rub issues when you get the car down to ride height. I had issues with 5.5 bs, but I had planned to cut the fender anyways.

Hope not! But if I have to rehoop the front wheels then that's what it takes! Thaks God for 3-piece wheels!! :yes:

I just drew it out on paper and the wheel's front lip will be outward 3/8" more than my 8" w/ 5" bs...which those fit no problem. However that was with the stock frame and a 245 tire. Time will tell! :thumbsup:

I'm pretty sure a 9" wheel w/ 6" bs would hit on a OE frame...there must be quite a bit more clearance built into the ST frame?

[James OLC]

I'm pretty sure a 9" wheel w/ 6" bs would hit on a OE frame...there must be quite a bit more clearance built into the ST frame?

I know that a 9" wheel with 6.375" of backspacing will just brush an OE frame at full lock when the steering stops are not adjusted. With the stops adjusted on my SpeedTech LCAs there is no issue and only a minimal loss or turning radius.

[wrighton]

Good info guys :thumbsup: , I have a 69 camaro

[youthpastor]

finished the suspension last night and wanted to show the clearance of the Speedtech frame with a 18x9 on a 275

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg268/LS168/68%20Trans%20Am%20z28/228.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg268/LS168/68%20Trans%20Am%20z28/2252.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg268/LS168/68%20Trans%20Am%20z28/2262.jpg

you can see that the arms and sway bar are designed for clearance

[awr68]

Great shots Chris! :thumbsup:

Did you test fit these wheels/tires with the front sheet metal installed? I have 3/8" less bs than you. Obviously frame clearance won't be an issue...but the fender might be a problem. Just wondering what the clearance was like on yours.

[youthpastor]

Great shots Chris! :thumbsup:

Did you test fit these wheels/tires with the front sheet metal installed? I have 3/8" less bs than you. Obviously frame clearance won't be an issue...but the fender might be a problem. Just wondering what the clearance was like on yours.

wheels just showed up...but Roger said it should be more than enough

[Stuart Adams]

Would a 10 inch tire fit also?

[Blake Foster]

yes on a 69 for sure 10 with a 6.75 to 7" BS

[awr68]

I know that a 9" wheel with 6.375" of backspacing will just brush an OE frame at full lock when the steering stops are not adjusted. With the stops adjusted on my SpeedTech LCAs there is no issue and only a minimal loss or turning radius.

Good info James...thanks!! :thumbsup:

[HotRod68Camaro]

what about a 10" on a 68 w/o losing any turning radius?

[Blake Foster]

you may loose a bit but nothing to worry about,always a bit of give and take we have more experiance fitting the 10 on 69's. probably the best example will be youthpastor in the next couple weeks and AWR on monday afternoon after his car shows up i'm thinking the wheels and tires are the first thing to be installed.

[Musclerodz]

I am wondering if there is a difference in wheel placement between L&H, ATS , or stock spindles. We ended up rehooping to 6.5 bs with ats spindles and expecting about the same clearance. I am picking up the wheels Monday and will post picks of them mounted as well.

[Blake Foster]

I am wondering if there is a difference in wheel placement between L&H, ATS , or stock spindles. We ended up rehooping to 6.5 bs with ats spindles and expecting about the same clearance. I am picking up the wheels Monday and will post picks of them mounted as well.

Hey Mike the ATS spindle puts the mounting flange in the factory Camaro location, the pontiacs are generally wider by about 1/2" from the factory, "Wide Track" you know. lol

[DOOM]

Hey SNAPPYTRAVIS:question: The choice should be clear!! Who is the only person representing their product here!!!!You can't get better CUSTOMER SERVICE than this! And to me this is what it comes down to PERIOD!! Quite honestly if I did'nt jump the gun with DSE this would be my setup hands down.. You don't see DSE, MORRISON,etc answering any of your questions. And when it comes down to it SPEED TECH is right up there with the rest of them. So pick up the phone and get to getin .....Blakes ready to take your order:willy:

[Silver69Camaro]

Hey SNAPPYTRAVIS:question: The choice should be clear!! Who is the only person representing their product here!!!!You can't get better CUSTOMER SERVICE than this! And to me this is what it comes down to PERIOD!! Quite honestly if I did'nt jump the gun with DSE this would be my setup hands down.. You don't see DSE, MORRISON,etc answering any of your questions. And when it comes down to it SPEED TECH is right up there with the rest of them. So pick up the phone and get to getin .....Blakes ready to take your order:willy:

Ok, I have a bit of a beef with that Mario. You can't expect companies to be on the forums every day making sure every question is answered, we have work to do! Honestly I only come on here when my computer is running FEA or something and I can't do anything else.

I'm on Pro Touring quite often and occasionally come on to Lateral-G to answer questions, BTW.

/off soapbox

[Matt@BOS]

Ok, I have a bit of a beef with that Mario. You can't expect companies to be on the forums every day making sure every question is answered, we have work to do! Honestly I only come on here when my computer is running FEA or something and I can't do anything else.

I'm on Pro Touring quite often and occasionally come on to Lateral-G to answer questions, BTW.

/off soapbox

I think it is worth mentioning in this thread that while the Art Morrison crew might not be posting a ton on the forum, they're only a phone call away. I've been contemplating a Morrison front suspension for a new project of mine and the staff over there were more than helpful in answering all of my questions and giving me advice.

DSE has some of the best customer service available as well. I've called over there more times than I can remember to order different sway bars and quadralink brackets and they have always been able to get me the exact parts I needed.

Regardless of who you choose you will be well taken care of, so figure out which one is best for YOU, and go for it.

Matt

[ProdigyCustoms]

Snappy Travis has made his decision and the parts are in the works.

[DaveO]

Ok, I have a bit of a beef with that Mario. You can't expect companies to be on the forums every day making sure every question is answered, we have work to do! Honestly I only come on here when my computer is running FEA or something and I can't do anything else.

I'm on Pro Touring quite often and occasionally come on to Lateral-G to answer questions, BTW.

/off soapbox

Matt, the fact that you, Craig, and Art literally stopped everything you guys were doing when I showed up at your shop pretty much un-announced told me everything I needed to know about AME's customer service - awesome! I've yet to meet anyone who hasn't had positive experiences with AME's products and service.

That said, I'll say the same for DSE - anytime I've contacted them they've been very responsive and helpful.

[DOOM]

'' You can't expect companies to be on the forums every day making sure every question is answered, we have work to do!''
''I'm on Pro Touring quite often and occasionally come on to Lateral-G to answer questions, BTW.''


Matt I thought you had work to do...:D Sorry I just look at things differently.Blake is on here all the time answering questions about his product,I guess where spoiled thinking all the vendors can do the same..And let me tell ya I have VERY GOOD reason for my customer service comment! I'm not going to hijack this thread with this any further its not the place. I'm sure Travis is in good hands with Frank.:cheers: