'67 Camaro SCCA build

[j-rho]

Hi everyone,
I haven't posted much but have been doing a lot of reading on this site over the past year or more. Learned a lot of great things from the experiences of the generous members here.

Bought my '67 Camaro yesterday and am finally about to get started. Since I'm on a lot of different message boards, I've decided to detail the build on my own site, this way I only have to update a single message board instead of several.

Here's the link:
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build

If you have any questions about it, feel free to email [email protected]

Thanks again to everyone for all you've shared!

[bonecrrusher]

Nice... I'm not sure I'd drive a car w/out a gas gauge though... LOL!

[LS1NOVA]

Nice story so far. It will be neat to see a Camaro built for dedicated autox.

[Ron in SoCal]

Congrats on the car Jason. Glad you found a suitable candidate...!

[mdprovee]

Looks like fun...I just started autocross, and would love to do what you are doing.

[j-rho]

Still a long long way from completion, but I did pick up the motor last weekend and got a couple vids of it on the dyno. Started an analysis of the front suspension also, a few posts down.

http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/

[j-rho]

Fabrication work complete, car headed in for body and paint now.
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/

[JKnight]

Great Job Jason. I really like the alternative approach you're taking to solving some of the 1st Gen's inherent shortcomings, particularly the sway bars! Well done sir.

[Bryce]

Nice stuff! As for teh weight of a chassis mounted watts link. I built mine out of aluminum and weighs 8.4 pounds for the cradle and pivot and links.

[j-rho]

Home from paint! Goal is to have it on the road by next February.
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build

[70rs]

Nice job on this! I really like the dedicated site and level of detail you are doing with the information. Looking forward to more updates.

[Ron in SoCal]

Sunoco Blue...love the color Jason! :thumbsup: The grey contrast is very cool also. Impressive for four months...

You know what they say, 'the last 25% takes 75% in time and chasing parts.' I hope it's less for you!

[bingham72]

Great read!

[Flash68]

Jason, any updates?

I read your blog and am curious what front spring rates you are planning on starting with? In the 4 digits it appears... ? :unibrow:

[coolwelder62]

Very nice build.Seem's to alot of folk's building sunoco camaro's these day's.I like it.:thumbsup:

[j-rho]

Nothing to update beyond what's on the blog unfortunately.

As for spring rates, yes, something in the 4-digit range. With the Camaro's motion ratio, they need to be that high to get to even a modest wheel rate and ride frequency.

[SLO_Z28]

Nice build!

Cant wait to see it done! There has to something other than a WRX in STX :thumbsup:

[jr4452]

Nice work, love the grey undercarriage, all business!

[Ron in SoCal]

Nothing to update beyond what's on the blog unfortunately.



Hey Jason - welcome back! You mentioned another ride to campaign on your blog. What is it?

[j-rho]

Hey Jason - welcome back! You mentioned another ride to campaign on your blog. What is it?

Hi Ron,
Drove a Gen4 Viper this year while progressing with the Camaro.

Have wheels now, but still a ways to go. Hoping for ignition by new years.

http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/vintage_eng_wheels_on-1024x551.jpg

http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=1539

[j-rho]

It runs now! Sounds pretty nice at idle too. :)
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=1684

[intocarss]

Can't believe I've never highjacked, I mean seen this thread. Awesome car & sounds good too :thumbsup:

Are you running the 30/30 cam?

[j-rho]

Can't believe I've never highjacked, I mean seen this thread. Awesome car & sounds good too :thumbsup:

Are you running the 30/30 cam?

Yep, stock cam.

[Vegas69]

zv8kNY3CjQg

[Flash68]

:thumbsup:

[j-rho]

Watts link is in, suspension (minus shocks) buttoned up enough to let it move under its own power.

The last time the car moved under its own power was September 22, 2010 ("The long strange trip (http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=37)") and on February 17, 2013, it moved itself back out - only took me about 2.5 years!
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/camaro_driveway1-1024x657.jpg

In addition to a few more pics have some boring "car rolling down the street" videos linked from http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build

[WSSix]

Congrats! I like the color combination.

[CrossRamRich]

Hi Ron,
Drove a Gen4 Viper this year while progressing with the Camaro.

Have wheels now, but still a ways to go. Hoping for ignition by new years.

http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/vintage_eng_wheels_on-1024x551.jpg

http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=1539

Awesome! Gorgeous car!:thumbsup:

[intocarss]

That looks great

[Flash68]

Watts link is in, suspension (minus shocks) buttoned up enough to let it move under its own power.

The last time the car moved under its own power was September 22, 2010 ("The long strange trip (http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=37)") and on February 17, 2013, it moved itself back out - only took me about 2.5 years!
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/camaro_driveway1-1024x657.jpg

In addition to a few more pics have some boring "car rolling down the street" videos linked from http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build

Killer.... Jongbloed wheels, correct?

[j-rho]

Yep, Jongbloed, the 214 Aero style.

[smhigh]

Your Camaro looks GREAT!!!

[Nessumsar]

Jason, I really appreciate all of the information you have gathered and distributed during this build. I am really looking forward to your thoughts on the spring rates you have chosen once you get some seat time.

[j-rho]

Here's a writeup of its first race weekend:
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=1845
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/IMG_7520-1024x682.jpg
Also have an in-car video for download, it is somewhat large though (~180MB):
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/sdTourDay2Run2.mp4

A long way from where it needs to be handling-wise, but now the fun can really begin!

[j-rho]

El Toro ProSolo writeup: http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=1866
Video 1: http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/left1_720.mp4
Video 2: http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/left2_720.mp4

http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/El-Toro-20130407-00669-1024x768.jpg

[sik68]

Thanks for the update Jason! Love following your build and website.

If I can throw my thinking cap on with you.

On the El Toro runs, it looks like you could be locking up the rear tires under braking? To me, it looks like that is really what's unsettling the car on turn in and keeping you so busy. In contrast, mid-corner to corner out, the car looks pretty manageable.

You're obviously a good driver, the car just looks really skittish right now but I'm sure you'll get it sorted soon enough.

:thumbsup:

[j-rho]

Hi Steven,
I think you're absolutely right, that the rear brakes are locking up. Was up late on Wilwood's site last night looking for different calipers that would shift braking bias forward. Think I have a solution in mind.

In a different setting I might try a proportioning valve, but it's not legal in the class.

[chetly]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just get s different pad compound for the front or rear to help adjust brake bias?

I'd love to do something like this with a Mustang but I don't feel the k code 289 would have enough power to get the job done.

[j-rho]

Cheaper, yes, but I don't feel that is as good a solution. Different pad compounds behave differently as temperatures rise and fall, which would also shift the bias around somewhat unpredictably. With a little less rear piston area, the bias should be consistently shifted forward.

An old ponycar's last problem is power - I'm sure with headers, exhaust, and a solidly (but legally) rebuilt motor, you'd have more than enough power. Most cars in the class are below 200whp - but they are also small, light, with great handling and braking. Power is not that important in autocross.

[pjs65]

I still run with a SBC307 and definitely the last thing i worry about is the power , getting around corners and stopping are a bigger concern . You just have to go out and give it a try and learn from the experience and for a while get used to being slower than 1600 hatchbacks . Pete

[chetly]

I dont think in auto-x that the brakes are going to get hot enough to really have to worry about them acting differently. Scratch that, they might during a Pro.

Im not anywhere close to being new to auto-xing, ive been doing it for the last 10 years so I understand that power isnt everything, the other major problem with the Mustangs is lack of fender clearance. For instance, we beat the fenders on Mike Maiers 66 coupe to give it a one inch flare and are only able to get 275's under there. So with stock fenders, 245s are about the only thing you can fit under the stock fender and keep STX legal.

[Sieg]

Cheaper, yes, but I don't feel that is as good a solution. Different pad compounds behave differently as temperatures rise and fall, which would also shift the bias around somewhat unpredictably. With a little less rear piston area, the bias should be consistently shifted forward.

An old ponycar's last problem is power - I'm sure with headers, exhaust, and a solidly (but legally) rebuilt motor, you'd have more than enough power. Most cars in the class are below 200whp - but they are also small, light, with great handling and braking. Power is not that important in autocross.
Can you reduce the pad surface area thus reducing friction?
Cut a slot out of the center of the pad?

[j-rho]

Yep, reduced pad area, or maybe even cross-drilled rotors would reduce rear bias. So would going with a taller rear, or shorter front tire. Problem is I will actually most likely go the opposite way with tire diameter (going from taller rears, to equal height front and rears) which will make the bias problem worse. I like a little bit of rear bias to aid in corner entry rotation but this is way over the top...

chetly, 245's might not be the end of the world if you can fit them on a decent width (8.5 or 9") wheel. The class only allows for 265s anyway, and the weight advantage I believe the early Mustangs have, may negate some of the tire size disadvantage.

[j-rho]

Heyward Wagner, the SCCA's communications director, was out at the El Toro Pro Solo last weekend. While there he put together a very nice little documentary piece on the Camaro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meybtwmMxQY

Enjoy!

[66SuperSport]

Caught the video yesterday and found this thread for the first time today. Awesome car! Hope to see it in person one day.

[j-rho]

Nice little blurb on The Truth About Cars website-
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/04/ill-see-your-pro-touring-and-raise-you/
the comments are always good for some laughs :)

[Tomswheels]

Jason, really enjoying reading all the articles and your blogs, will the car be at Qualcomm on the 27th or 28th?

[j-rho]

Probably not -will likely be in pieces with the shocks out getting revalved. I also want to lower the rear of the car too, and already have too much spacer block, which means a new set of springs. It is jackstand bound for now!

[j-rho]

Brief recap of Farmington ProSolo: http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=1962

Video quality not the best, playing around with the software. Will try to get some high def renditions done tonight.

[j-rho]

Update - trophied at the ProSolo Finale - quite a ways off the winner, but not bad considering the competition and that it's only the car's 4th event, and only the second event where I got to take all my runs-
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=2011

Looking ahead now to Thursday/Friday and the National Championships!

[coolwelder62]

Very Cool Camaro!!!!!!:thumbsup: Congrat's on your latest Solo.:trophy-1302:

[Flash68]

Congrats and best of luck next week! I like Jongbloeds, but the CCW's look great on there.

[j-rho]

Writeup of Nats w/video:
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=2031
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/camaro6-1024x737.jpg

[GregWeld]

First thing I'd do is go back and watch the video of your test and tune ---- and fix the side to side movement of the rear axle! OMG! I've never seen that much movement --- probably well over an inch side to side!

If you didn't have open wheel wells -- your tires and fender would be a mess.


AWESOME CAR BTW!!! And really fun reading your site!


myaOcPZromg

[j-rho]

Greg, not sure that's the case. I think it's an artifact of how the car rolls about the watts center pivot. In the previous blog post I included a video with the camera under the gas tank, showing the rear axle where the watts connects on the driver side. It is fairly well controlled laterally. Torque reaction, not so much... :-)

[Vegas69]

It looks like the front tire moving. It has to be effecting performance. Will they allow a panhard bar in your class?

[j-rho]

It looks like the front tire moving. It has to be effecting performance. Will they allow a panhard bar in your class?
Car has the Fays2 watts. It might be moving a little due to flex in the components, but I think it is mostly the unusual camera perspective.

[TheJDMan]

After reading through the post on your web page regarding the pushrod failure. Why stamped steel rockers?

[chetly]

He's running the stamped steel rockers because that's what required by SCCA rules for the class that he's running in...

[j-rho]

Yep, engine internals are all stock. Oil pan and pickup are the only things allowed to be changed, carb is stock too.

[GregWeld]

Well.... I don't really know anything about suspension ---- I just noticed that huge (IMHO) side to side movement.

I know that I've set up panhard bars that at full suspension travel move as much as 1/8th inch off center line --- so a total of 1/4" top to bottom.

I cut a tire on my race car -- and we search all over for the cause and never did find anything wrong -- and my tires are pretty close to the fender lips in the rear.

And you can see how close they get under load in the front... But we're road racing not auto crossing which is really going to toss the car around side to side.



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/65%20Mustang%20Track%20car/MU0X0394.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/gregweld/media/65%20Mustang%20Track%20car/MU0X0394.jpg.html)

[Matt@BOS]

I too am surprised at how much it is moving, not laterally, but rather how everything seems to be swiveling, or as Todd said, it almost "looks like the front tires turning." I'm guessing that attributable to bushing flex, right? What kind of bushings do you have. I'm sure whatever you have has been mandated by the rule book.

Matt

[Flash68]

4 wheel steering?

:peepwall:

[j-rho]

I too am surprised at how much it is moving, not laterally, but rather how everything seems to be swiveling, or as Todd said, it almost "looks like the front tires turning." I'm guessing that attributable to bushing flex, right? What kind of bushings do you have. I'm sure whatever you have has been mandated by the rule book.

MattAt present it only has leaf springs for fore/aft and torque reaction control. They are composite of decent rate (250lbs.) for the rear corner sprung weights (<500lbs.), but aren't enough to keep things under good control.

Greg, the motion you are talking about is axle lateral movement through pure vertical travel - the watts link eliminates this movement. As the car rolls about its rear roll center, on the outside rear corner, the outer fender lip tends to move "away" from the tire (since it is well above the roll center height), and the inboard top of the tire gets closer to the inner fenderwell.

[Sieg]

:headscratch:

http://www.hotchkis.net/swivel-max-bushing-upgrade-19671981-camaro-firebird-6874-nova.html

[GregWeld]

At present it only has leaf springs for fore/aft and torque reaction control. They are composite of decent rate (250lbs.) for the rear corner sprung weights (<500lbs.), but aren't enough to keep things under good control.

Greg, the motion you are talking about is axle lateral movement through pure vertical travel - the watts link eliminates this movement. As the car rolls about its rear roll center, on the outside rear corner, the outer fender lip tends to move "away" from the tire (since it is well above the roll center height), and the inboard top of the tire gets closer to the inner fenderwell.



I'm not 'arguing' right or wrong - because I really just don't know..... and I wasn't trying to open up a discussion on right or wrong ---- I was just merely shocked at what I was seeing.

I'm going to have to put my GoPro on the quarter in October at Thunderhill and see if my car does this much!! I know my car handles fine --- and obviously your's does as well! You've got some great accomplishments with it (and yourself as the driver!).

What I was thinking was that --- if the body "rolls" that much (and that's not the correct term) side to side -- then someone with a different shaped wheel well might be close to cutting the sidewall in a turn if they're close to the lip to begin with.

I have the Maier rear end suspension on my Mustang --- on leaf springs --- so now I'll have to tape it just to see. After that I might have to hang up my shoes because I might scare myself!! HAHAHAHAHAHA

[j-rho]

Slapped this together in mspaint, perhaps it will help visualize the chassis/axle interactions a bit-
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/live_axle_roll_diagram.jpg

Thanks for the props Greg! Car is still quite a ways from where it could be, which I'm hoping is the same as "where it needs to be" to be really competitive.

[GregWeld]

Good visual graphic!