What am I missing?

[millerman340]

What is so difficult that a weld in c5 suspension can't be made for Mopar products ? I'm not the smartest guy but all the stuff made for the fist gen Camaro that it should be easy while keeping the Front frame rail intact. First of all the inside of the rails are 31.50 & 36" to the outside with a 60.7 "track 68.5" fender lip to fender lip leaving one inch on each side for clearance. side. Sounds awfully close to the stock C5 measurements. (I have a C5 front frame for reference) It's about three inches from the bottom of the rail to the top of the factory K member so with Drop arms & a lower rack it does not have to sit like a 4x4. I understand the upper arms are to long but once the pocket is moved there's plenty of room. I've already laid this out with 2x4 tubing like the A.M. member & if I can get that far with limited knowledge what am I missing? Come one someone fill this need without being $ 5000 or so.. No I do not want hack the front rails. dave,:willy:

[wellis77]

Someone probably can but there is not a demand for it. Mopar guys on this site are different than the "traditional" Mopar guy. The traditional, from my experience and perspective, does not want to even consider something other than Mopar for there car. The thought of a C5 suspension, albeit better in all ways, would be a complete abomination to everything Mopar stands for. I don't disagree with you and I think it would be great to see someone do it, but it will never happen because the demand is so small. Consider also what the traditional Mopar guy typically does with his car, 1/4 mile builds or street/strip builds. There are VERY FEW of us that are building these things to handle well. I "think" it will begin coming around in the coming years but it's going to take time, and a lot of it.

[pro-tour79]

One thing you are not taking into consideration is that you just can't willy nilly move A-arms and steering rack to fit, it will screw up the geometry, cause bump steer, there is FAR more to this than fit.

[millerman340]

I understand that but the E body cars are not that much different than the Gen 1 Camaro. I used to be one of those Mopar guys & yes mopars 's calling card was being fast! ( But handle like crap stock) My messing around with making the cross member is more of a learning experience than anything else but starting where c5 pickup points are must be somewhere close. Beside who would hack up a 70 convertible? :faint:

[MoparCar]

I'm building a Challenger also (6.1 hemi, T-56, mini-tubbed) and have asked this question in my head before.

XV Motorsports does utilize lower C6 arms and hubs by the way.

I've talked to both Art Morrison and Jakes Rod Shop about building me a front "stub" clip or bikini clip as AME calls them. Both shops will do this and you are correct with the factory frame width it would be possible. I've measured and mocked this up at ride height (that is the key-don't make assumptions about clearances at ride height) and most likely it would work. It would amount to cutting a long "C" notch in the inner side of the frame rails, boxing and installing the portion of the stub clip containing all the C6 mounts into this notch much the same as some of the street rod style Mustang II set ups install.

Please note I am only talking about an aftermarket clip such as AME or Jakes since they sort of tighten everything up into a package that works with available racks and the proper geometry.

I would not attempt this with a factory vette front.

Keep in mind you will have to modify and build new inner fenders, etc. and your headers may be tight and probably custom. Both vendors could probably build a clip that would attach to the front rad support if you made a very good diagram and then jigged your frame while you where cutting.

You will also need to mock up the actual tire size you will be running to see at lock to lock if there is adequate clearance to the outer side of the frame rail.

I need to measure again since I am ready to do something with the front. Either XV Motorsports, Alterkation, CA Chassis Works G-Machine weld to fit system or one of these front stub clips.

Wes

[millerman340]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o32/millerman340/img1285024555074.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o32/millerman340/img1285024607531.jpg
Here are a few pics of my experiment just for conversation.
Now let's assume that my lower mounts are set at 27" apart & my LCA runs down hill toward the front about 3*. Now with a spacer to hold the upper arm parallel with the hub level & setting the Castor angle @ 9* you should be able to locate your upper mount, Right?

[coolwelder62]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=26454This is the weld in C6 clip I made for Jon for his javelin build up. Give me a call at 1-785-594-7481 and we can talk about how to get the job done.Scott

[millerman340]

Scott , What a sweet frame that is & a hell of a price ! I was surprised the Javelin measurements are as close to the Challengers . I'd still have to hack the frame rails to graft it in & the Challenger's rails are angled up towards the front . I def get in touch with you & my Boss has a 68 Charger he want to do the same also. :thumbsup:

[coolwelder62]

I can build the outside frame rails from 31inches to 34inches wide and make them how ever long you need them. track wt. is 60.5 inches wide w/std.c6 brakes. I could even build them on an angle for you so they would graft right in place.just need to know the angle of the bottom frame rail when the car is level.Jon's clip worked pretty well for him.Thanks Scott.:thumbsup:

[camcojb]

I'm on my second Scott Mock C6 front clip, very nice stuff. :thumbsup:

Jody

[coolwelder62]

Thank's Jody,It's been great working w/ Jody and everybody else here on Lateral -G. I just want to build quality suspension pcs. that work good at an afordable prices.

[Jtomas801]

Yeah, Scott's work is awesome and I would definitely get another one from him. The fit up and welds look great. Scott is a great guy and very easy to work with. He's pricing is great with great quality work.

On my Javelin, the plan at first was to splice it into the original frame rails. But after taking some time looking at the original frame and a little luck, it was easier and better in my application to remove the existing frame and build a new front sub.

Thanks,
Jon

[coolwelder62]

Jon how you fabbed up the frame for your javelin is cool I might have buy the drawings from you if find me a humpster.:thumbsup:

[millerman340]

I'm still not considering cutting the rails just yet. That cross-member is 2x4 .190 & the LCA cross bars that I have are cold rolled 1.25 solid bar ( Trust me, I have have access to digital measuring tools to locate the the LCA shafts & the smarts enough to make it straight & true ;). I believe welding it in plus strategic location from Scott & using with his steering arms & sway bar setup I can keep my rails.:unibrow:

[millerman340]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o32/millerman340/img1285707692933.jpg
Seeing that I'm dead at work I continued with the lower mount with some help from one of our members, I decided to go with a 60.5 track.

[millerman340]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o32/millerman340/img1287429241790.jpg

[nvr2fst]

Salviggio Auto Design (formally perfection autoworks) has done an AME C6 clip in a Charger and Challenger recently. Slight modification was needed. You may find something on his website showing the install, not sure.

Sooner or later somebody has to hit that market more than whats offered now.

[millerman340]

Nice cars on their site! I don't think the tops of the Mopar frame rails are strong enough for the upper mounts. Looks like I'll have to section them & make a stronger rail in that area but keep the stock dimensions to make it unnoticeable. So much for not chopping!

[millerman340]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o32/millerman340/img1287952706548.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o32/millerman340/img1287952706824.jpg

[R.A.D]

the key word is c5, or c6 thats where the stigma comes in. but aftermarket parts are aftermarket parts. unless everything has a gm part number on it. i am a mopar guy aswell, i used to do "the get there in a straight line as fast as you can thing" but to let the nomenclature used on a part keep you from building the car you want, i don't understand... it would be the same with a mustang rack and pinion, a toyota turbo, how many after market steering columns are gm style. but that dosen't stop them from being used. the key word i think is style. c5 style, c6 style ect.. they are just chassis parts,
i had a friend who ran smallblock fords he would install chevy vales in his ford heads. but are they chevy valves or just valves?

just my $.02:willy:

[millerman340]

Well I guess I chopped it up!
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o32/millerman340/img1299636421700.jpg

[MoparCar]

Did you plug weld the tubing you slid into the frame rails to the factory rails?
Have you mocked up the steering rack to see how it will mount compared to the C6 uprights? I've been comparing XV Motorsports frame/rack/swaybar to both AME, JRS and Scott Mock's subframes and there is a lot of difference on how they do this to control the bump steer, etc. AME, JRS and Scott all use a dropped arm on the upright/knuckle. XV mounts their rack higher and back. XV drops their sway bar down from the frame whereas the others tuck it up higher.

I'm measured this on my Challenger more than a few times. To me it looks like the UCA mounts need to be inside the factory rails towards the motor and a couple of inches higher. Not really sure, but the factory frame rail may require a notch for shock clearance.

Just looking for opinions. Although I won't be building my own like yourself, I am considering using a stub frame from one of the above companies to do the same grafting it into the stock rails.

Keep posting.

Wes

[millerman340]

Plug welded from the sides, Cut out the upper & lower & welded the seams. Then cut out the inner sides where the cross member welds in to the rails tying the pieces together. As far as the lower mounts there are only a few locations that they can go, If you use the Mustang rack you have to run @ 60.5" track width ( That's why A.M., Scott & XV use the same width.) It has to do with where the inner tie rods line up with the upper & lower arm pivots to control bump steer. I'll address the outers when I get to them & probably have Scott make a set for me..In hindsight I should have bought a weld in stub, But then I would have never learned what I have about what it takes to make a front suspension work...:)