Had enough of air ride issues - going to Coilovers

[67greengt]

Well,

After two years of messing around with the air suspension in one of my dad's Mustangs I've decided that I'm going to completely change my suspension in my 67 Fastback I'm building. I currently have the entire ride tech suspension kit front and rear for my mustang with the e3 system and internal ride height sensors - all of which I want to pull out and replace with coilovers

A couple problems I've been having with the air ride setup

1) Intermitent Power on - leak detected warnings, when the system never actually loses any air
2) After deflating the air at a show or parking, when going up to ride height, the car never goes to the same height - not even close. I have to get out and check each corner to see where its at, then pump all four corners up to suitable heights
3) Have been promised by the ridetech guys that a new updated computer that will work with the wireless key fobs - still no word on it been around 6mths

So enough is enough, and I'm ready to make the transition to a coilover suspension and will build the ride height into the car.

I'm looking at replacing the air bags in the back tcp style gbar with coilovers and for the front going with a tci front end, so as to make room for the future coyote 5.0L supercharged motor.

Couple questions

1) Does the TCI kit alter the track width from stock at all?
2) TCI uses mustang two spindles - will these work with my baer brake 14" pro plus brakes? (they are currently mounted with the baer supplied brackets on stock 68 mustang drum spindles)
3) Are there any companies that make aftermarket spindles that are compatible with baer brakes?

Any other things to consider for this type of a suspension swap?

Thanks for the help

Tom

[PASD U]

That sucks about the RideTech stuff. I am used to nothing but good words about their kits. Was it ALL RideTech gear or pieces here and there?

Either way, post up some pics of your build man. I like those Fastbacks.

[67greengt]

Complete Ride-tech setup - air bar four link in the back, and the tubular strong arms uppper and lower control arms in the front with the muscle bar sway bar - e3 level pro brain with internal ride height sensors installed by ridetech..

[speedshftr]

i would imagine they would stand by there product.i would hope anyway .hope it works out for you.

[marolf101x]

I posted this over at Pro-Touring, but I thought I better put it here as well so everyone can read it.


Let me break this down a bit so everyone can easily get the info they require:

67greengt: If you'd like to give it one more shot I'll walk you through everything you need to know and how to fix it. If you are not aware I am the one in charge of the e3 so you'll get no better assistance from anyone.

Remotes:
What part of the remotes do not work? We've had remote kits out for quite a while. The only thing you have to be aware of is that the remote "Node" (the little black box everything plugs into) must be connected directly to the display cable with the round M12 connector.
If you have an extension cable it MUST be placed between the display and the remote "Node". Standard USB cables contain only 4 wires. The display cable with the M12 connector has 5 wires. The remote "Node" requires the 5th wire.

Getting to Presets:
The e3 learns a ton about the car while going through Calibration (suspension type, how fast the system inflates and deflates, storage tank fill and bleed rates, etc.) It then uses this information to attain preset the best possible way (remember, this one system has to go on every car ever created by a major auto manufacturer as well as anything anyone dreamed up in their garage, so it has to be VERY flexible).
It is also adaptive, in that each time it travels to preset it records how well it did. If it was slightly off it alters the math so it gets better the next time. It keeps doing this each time you hit a preset button.
If you have level sensors, and the vehicle inflates/deflates relatively slowly the e3 opens the valves and looks at the level sensors real time. It goes slightly over the preset destination then deflates down to the height (within 1/8" if everything is set up properly). This eliminates any suspension bind inherent in the system. Once the level sensors have the vehicle extremely close to ride height it then looks at the pressure sensors to make sure the side-to-side pressures are similar and that the cross-corner percentages are similar (like figuring cross weights in a race car). As air pressure means spring rate we want the pressures and percentages to be fairly close to each other so the spring rates are the same.

Why didn't the car go to preset?
There are MANY things that can affect this, but the main ones are as follows:
-is everything working? If you have one level sensor, or one air pressure sensor that is "out of whack" or not functioning properly in any way it will adversely affect attaining preset. The pressures are easy to check, just inflate and deflate the system; if the pressures move up and down they work. Level sensors are a little more difficult, which is why we added a "real time voltage viewing" option to the e3 display. With this you can simply "watch" the actual voltages from each level sensor. Again, if you inflate and deflate and the voltages all move uniformly and smoothly everything is working fine.
-What pressures do you run? One of the biggest issues I find is that people run too much air pressure. All of our systems are designed to be around 80-110psi at ride height in the front and 30-90psi in the rear (each car is different). What I'll find is that people will be running 135psi up front. Though the air springs will handle that pressure without a sweat the tank has only 150psi in it, so it takes a few tries before you can actually get enough air in the air spring. There are only two solutions to this: 1-(the correct answer) bigger air springs. If your load is heavy enough to require that much air you need bigger springs. 2-(easy, but not right) more pressure. By having 175-200psi in the tank you can reach your 135psi destination without the tank and air springs normalizing. This does, however, dramatically shorten the life of the compressors as they have to work a lot harder.
-suspension bind. I know, it sounds dumb and I sound like a record, but no suspension will work if it's not allowed to move. It's a very simple, often overlooked issue.

If you want, drop me an e-mail ([email protected]) and I'll do whatever I can to get that Mustang working correctly (I have yet to have a car beat me!)

[slow4dr]

So enough is enough, and I'm ready to make the transition to a coilover suspension and will build the ride height into the car.

I'm looking at replacing the air bags in the back tcp style gbar with coilovers and for the front going with a tci front end, so as to make room for the future coyote 5.0L supercharged motor.

Couple questions

1) Does the TCI kit alter the track width from stock at all?
2) TCI uses mustang two spindles - will these work with my baer brake 14" pro plus brakes? (they are currently mounted with the baer supplied brackets on stock 68 mustang drum spindles)
3) Are there any companies that make aftermarket spindles that are compatible with baer brakes?

Any other things to consider for this type of a suspension swap?

Thanks for the help

Tom


TCI does not use a Mustang II spindle on their 64-70 Mustang IFS. It is a custom piece. Baer makes a caliper adapter to work with the spindle.

The track width is 58.25" on the TCI kit. I've never been able to find a definitive answer to what the stock track width is on the early Mustangs. I have seen varying information but they all said the early ones were skinnier than the later models.

We have ordered engine mounts for a 5.0 Coyote to verify they are the same as the 4.6. The drawings appear to be the same mounting so we are hopeful the existing mod motor mounts will cross over.

-J

[DOOM]

I posted this over at Pro-Touring, but I thought I better put it here as well so everyone can read it.


Let me break this down a bit so everyone can easily get the info they require:

67greengt: If you'd like to give it one more shot I'll walk you through everything you need to know and how to fix it. If you are not aware I am the one in charge of the e3 so you'll get no better assistance from anyone.

Remotes:
What part of the remotes do not work? We've had remote kits out for quite a while. The only thing you have to be aware of is that the remote "Node" (the little black box everything plugs into) must be connected directly to the display cable with the round M12 connector.
If you have an extension cable it MUST be placed between the display and the remote "Node". Standard USB cables contain only 4 wires. The display cable with the M12 connector has 5 wires. The remote "Node" requires the 5th wire.

Getting to Presets:
The e3 learns a ton about the car while going through Calibration (suspension type, how fast the system inflates and deflates, storage tank fill and bleed rates, etc.) It then uses this information to attain preset the best possible way (remember, this one system has to go on every car ever created by a major auto manufacturer as well as anything anyone dreamed up in their garage, so it has to be VERY flexible).
It is also adaptive, in that each time it travels to preset it records how well it did. If it was slightly off it alters the math so it gets better the next time. It keeps doing this each time you hit a preset button.
If you have level sensors, and the vehicle inflates/deflates relatively slowly the e3 opens the valves and looks at the level sensors real time. It goes slightly over the preset destination then deflates down to the height (within 1/8" if everything is set up properly). This eliminates any suspension bind inherent in the system. Once the level sensors have the vehicle extremely close to ride height it then looks at the pressure sensors to make sure the side-to-side pressures are similar and that the cross-corner percentages are similar (like figuring cross weights in a race car). As air pressure means spring rate we want the pressures and percentages to be fairly close to each other so the spring rates are the same.

Why didn't the car go to preset?
There are MANY things that can affect this, but the main ones are as follows:
-is everything working? If you have one level sensor, or one air pressure sensor that is "out of whack" or not functioning properly in any way it will adversely affect attaining preset. The pressures are easy to check, just inflate and deflate the system; if the pressures move up and down they work. Level sensors are a little more difficult, which is why we added a "real time voltage viewing" option to the e3 display. With this you can simply "watch" the actual voltages from each level sensor. Again, if you inflate and deflate and the voltages all move uniformly and smoothly everything is working fine.
-What pressures do you run? One of the biggest issues I find is that people run too much air pressure. All of our systems are designed to be around 80-110psi at ride height in the front and 30-90psi in the rear (each car is different). What I'll find is that people will be running 135psi up front. Though the air springs will handle that pressure without a sweat the tank has only 150psi in it, so it takes a few tries before you can actually get enough air in the air spring. There are only two solutions to this: 1-(the correct answer) bigger air springs. If your load is heavy enough to require that much air you need bigger springs. 2-(easy, but not right) more pressure. By having 175-200psi in the tank you can reach your 135psi destination without the tank and air springs normalizing. This does, however, dramatically shorten the life of the compressors as they have to work a lot harder.
-suspension bind. I know, it sounds dumb and I sound like a record, but no suspension will work if it's not allowed to move. It's a very simple, often overlooked issue.

If you want, drop me an e-mail ([email protected]) and I'll do whatever I can to get that Mustang working correctly (I have yet to have a car beat me!)

WOW you can't go wrong there.!!!!!!! Thats some standup CS in my opinion:thumbsup:

[PASD U]

Yeah, it would've struck me as odd that they'd really leave someone high and dry but I didn't want to say it outloud without a couple facts. I truly hope the problem gets resolved. Like I said, other than folks using Acme brand (see Wyle E. Coyote) air suspension doo doo and the folks that just absolutely won't accept the concept, I've never heard of someone that was absolutely unsatisfied with RideTech's stuff. Never say never but I've never seen it personally. I think they pretty much set the tone that they are basically every day folks that want to satisfy other every day folks.

[DRJDVM's '69]

My interactions with RideTech have been fantastic.....nothing but great product support....but to each his own...

[speedshftr]

when the time comes air ride is the only setup i would consider

[67greengt]

The double tap feature of the remotes do not work at all (Tony said in March this year you guys would send a flashed ECU with the new software to enable this function) We still haven't received an ECU, and haven't heard back from Tony since the end of April. I'm going to have to check on the node part of it, I don't recall having been sent a different display cable when we upgraded to the e3 system.

Do you have a direct number? I can call you on Friday to discuss and give you some of the history of the problems we've had/been having with the system since day one.

Thanks
Tom

[PASD U]

when the time comes air ride is the only setup i would consider

It's my ultimate goal. I would "settle" for a static sprung set up. LOL

[GregWeld]

I'm "shocked" (pun intended) it took you two years to dump that stuff... it took me less than a month before I tore it all off and went to coil overs. Car rides great - drives great - less plumbing and less "stuff" --- set it and forget it. :unibrow:

[marolf101x]

67greengt:

The Double Tap Feature does not work, and never will. It was a great idea I had that just isn't possible with the parts we use (we've tried a million ways to make it work and it never does exactly what we want it to, so it has been removed)
For those that are reading this the Double Tap Feature was supposed to allow the user to hit the remote key fob twice before the vehicle would go to preset, instead of once.
As it is now you hit the remote button once when the car is off and the system goes to preset.

If your remotes work when hitting the button once you have everything installed correctly. I've had a few installations where the remotes didn't work at all. It ended up being the extension harness was in the wrong place.

Please send me an e-mail ([email protected]) with your contact information. I will then reply with mine.

Otherwise you can call the main line (812-481-4787) and ask for me.

Thanks,
-Britt-