LS Engine Debate

[214Chevy]

Guys, I was having a discussion with a coworker today who is a car guy, but not really a car guy, if you know what I mean. Anyway, he argues the fact that if he still had his "69 Camaro he wouldn't be putting an LS motor in it. He states the fact that he wouldn't because everyone else is doing it and how everybody is putting LS's into their cars. So, I asked him, well what's the difference when LS's were not available and everyone was putting big block's into their cars? He then states that was all that was available was either a small block or a big block. Then I counter with newer technology and now an LS is pretty much all available now as far as Chevy is concerned. Unless you go retro with a 1st gen motor. What's you guys take on this. I just think some people fear the unknown and he is an old school guy who refuses to change. He just want to go against the grain and doesn't want it to seem as if he's jumping on the bandwagon.

[ccracin]

Guys, I was having a discussion with a coworker today who is a car guy, but not really a car guy, if you know what I mean. Anyway, he argues the fact that if he still had his "69 Camaro he wouldn't be putting an LS motor in it. He states the fact that he wouldn't because everyone else is doing it and how everybody is putting LS's into their cars. So, I asked him, well what's the difference when LS's were not available and everyone was putting big block's into their cars? He then states that was all that was available was either a small block or a big block. Then I counter with newer technology and now an LS is pretty much all available now as far as Chevy is concerned. Unless you go retro with a 1st gen motor. What's you guys take on this. I just think some people fear the unknown and he is an old school guy who refuses to change. He just want to go against the grain and doesn't want it to seem as if he's jumping on the bandwagon.


I've been in those conversations as well. Just like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar, you will never have a consensus. In my opinion, if everyone through the years felt as he does, we would all be walking or riding horses or having flat heads etc. Ask him if he has a black and white TV or maybe just an AM radio?

I also don't believe that "Everyone" is going LS. I was at a local show over the weekend. 700 cars and not 1 LS conversion that I came across. Of the thousands of cars at Columbus this year, LS conversions were still very much the minority. Will there be more absolutely, but remember there are still folks that live and breathe hot rodded flat heads! It's personal choice with no right or wrong answer.

We went from a Big Block to an LS. For us it was bang for the buck. We had to buy everything motor mounts, accessories, exhaust, headers etc. Therefore we got the most power for the least weight and the latest technology for not much more than the big block. If you already have a gen 1 engine in the car running than an LS can get expensive. Anyway, the difference of opinion is what keeps this hobby interesting and moving forward.

JMO

Later,:lateral:

[214Chevy]

...... Anyway, the difference of opinion is what keeps this hobby interesting and moving forward.

JMO

Later,:lateral:

Very well stated Chad. I too, went from a big block to an LS 6.0. Hence my screen name 509Chevelle. I had a beefy 509 ci big block. And when I told all my buddies I was giving it up for a small block LS engine, they all thought I was losing my minds.

[XcYZ]

As Chad noted, I don't think there's really that many LS conversions out there. At Car Craft last month, with 5,000+ cars, there were very, very few EFI conversions of any make.

[Vegas69]

LS engines suck. :unibrow:

[youthpastor]

LS engines suck. :unibrow:

ALL THE COOL KIDS ARE DOIN' IT! :D

[Stuart Adams]

Have had LS, Big and Little, LS for me is superior. Everybody has likes and dislikes, that's great. Great mileage, doesn't leak after 250 miles, reliable. But that's just me. It doesn't really matter, just drive what ya like.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

old car.. new tricks.. staying competitive and having fun.. ls engines do that.

[Josh69]

As Chad noted, I don't think there's really that many LS conversions out there. At Car Craft last month, with 5,000+ cars, there were very, very few EFI conversions of any make.

Agreed, I could count them on my fingers.

Hindsight 20/20, I'd do an LSx. For what I've spent on a whopping 475hp in this old Poncho, I should have. :_paranoid

[Stuart Adams]

Alot of it is the fear of the unknown. Men are brand shoppers and don't stray too far away from what there used too. We go to the store get it and get out. Until you have tried other options its really hard to have a legitimate opinion, IMO. Conversion to LS isn't cheap either.

I don't hear people putting in LS motors and bitching they should have ran a big block!

[FrankZ]

For me a gen1 works,Ihave too much time and $$ in it to swap out.However if I were starting from scratch (ie. no motor) I would go for the latest and greatest.I look at changes from the perspective of---What will I get for my dollar spent. Bling--NOT ,Results-GOT

[Vegas69]

There is no replacement for displacement....

[BBC71Nova]

I tend to agree with Todd. However, the LSx stuff now can be punched/stroked to go pretty large. The packaging still is beneficial too. A BBC can be built to shed some pounds with aluminum block too but they are just sooo expensive. Getting tougher and tougher to stay true to the big blocks :D .

John

[Bow Tie 67]

Old school is nice, but letting a computer control combustion, superior ground up design, longevity, MPG's, easy HP, light weight, great throttle response, self protection, .......... :hail:

[dubbleu]

Ive seen two LS powered 69 camaro's that were driven by the owners on the street for a year or so. Both cars ran great with awesome gas milage. They have both since been swaped out for the all aluminum 427ci GM crate motor. The reason I got from both owners was that the LS motors just didnt seem right in the car. They perfer the traditional rumble of the BBC.

[NOPANTS68]

I pulled a wicked 468 out of my car and went to a built LS last year. It's the best thing I ever did for the car. It's within tenths speed wise and has made the car far more enjoyable and useable.

[cheapta]

I'm in my mid fifties and am in the "planning-parts gathering" stages of a fresh motor for my 69 Z/28. As much as I would love to have an injected LS motor in the car,honestly the electronics scare me. Also the expense of having to change everything (mounts,fuel system,front drive,etc) makes the swap less attractive.I can build a decent traditional small block for pretty short money this days and that's appealing to me.

[Rhino]

Old school is nice, but letting a computer control combustion, superior ground up design, longevity, MPG's, easy HP, light weight, great throttle response, self protection, .......... :hail:

...and superior drivability. HP doesn't mean anything to me if it's a pain to maintain and drive.

[Vegas69]

I was really trying to instigate a few more responses with my "there's no replacement for displacement". There is no doubt a LSX engine is the cats meow for affordability, economy, leaks, and $ per HP. I will say that my big block makes effortless power and I feel with injection it would be a strong contender for drivability. The carb does let me get away with murder on the race track and tuning. It eats up my .666 lift cam a 252/260 @ .050 pretty well where it will idle smooth at 1000 and cruise as low as 1600 in 5th. Lot's of average power.:thumbsup: I have to admit when I start it cold I would love for it to sit an idle without touching the gas.

[monza]

LS engines suck. :unibrow:

LOL I spit my drink out laughing when I read that.:rolleyes:

[monza]

I've been in those conversations as well. Just like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar, you will never have a consensus.
JMO

Later,:lateral:

Kind of nails it with that statement.
~~

They are just way better, but some people....:willy:

[Vegas69]

Kind of nails it with that statement.
~~

They are just way better, but some people....:willy:

Bring it on budro... :unibrow: I've got 489 cubic inches of pissed off aluminum big bock with your name on it baby!

[JustinB]

I tossed around the idea of building some sort of stroker LS motor for my 69. It all boiled down to conversion costs for me. I like things done right and all the other crap I would need to switch over including tuning was blowing my budget. So a 496 with AFR heads and a either a hydraulic or solid roller it is. I can reuse just about everything off my last BBC and have more hp/tq than I will know what to do with. If I want to drive a LS I can get in my DD.

[GregWeld]

I have both -- and have built with both -- old skool and LS... I'll take the LSx any day.

But then --- there's no substitute for cubic inches... OH WAIT -- you can do that with LS too!

[jeff s]

Price out a all aluminum old school 427 SBC or BBC with EFI and dry sump.
Then compare to a new LS7 small block.

Price out a 383 sbc with heads that flow 315 cfm and EFI
Then compare a LS3,

BTW
I've got numerous 730 hp LS7's out there that run on 92 octane, even passed emissions in the UK. They get 20 mpg with a 6 speed.

[FrankZ]

Hey guys,I am starting to feel like the guy in the 3 duece flathead rod when a fuelly 57 chevy pulls up.......!LOL

[Roadrage David]

Old school is nice, but letting a computer control combustion, superior ground up design, longevity, MPG's, easy HP, light weight, great throttle response, self protection, .......... :hail:
I hope you are aware that the LS7 disighn is a steal from GM between a mopar botom end end a ford top end engine disign.

And that that engine in modern corvettes. are alouwd to use 1 to 1 1/2 quart of oil every1500/2000 miles.

And that fuel injections only hase 2 benifits.nr one is that is gives MPG at 50/60 mph and afther that it uses just as mutchs fuel at trotle as a regualr old school V8 engine. nr 2 you dont need to tune your ignition/carb twice a year.

Did you know that the LS7 engine in race corvettes only last 35 hours. then need a compleet rebuild ,due to a engine disight fauld where the piston squirts are to short!!!!..

Im a oil sponser in a international super car race class in Europe
LS 7 corvettes, Moslers V8 stars against ferarris / lamborginies/ aston Martin /
marcos / BMW / Mercs. ecetera.
The LS engine hase superior acseleration for sure top speed is great to say the least.
durabilety is mutch less and maintinese is mutch higher then there euro counter parts.

Also the rediculess price tag on hp parts for the LS engine and the corvette that GM and there vendors in the afthermarket artifisialy keeps high to push the corvette into the same leque as ferrari ecetera is rediculess to say the least.

buy a stok LS7 with 500 hp then try to buy a 700 hp LS 7 engine from a reputable engine builder like Kteck ecetera and your paying a exstra 10 to 15000 usd!!!. what is wrong here.........

If we build a 700 hp aluminum traditional ponticac engine mill with the same 4 inch stroke it wil beat up on the LS 7 engine torque wize plus durabilety it wil rev just as high and fuel consumtion will be the same.
same thing with a SBC ore BBC for that matter.

also for the record the GM LS7 hase NOTHING to do with a traditional chevy engine disighn its a CORPERATED engine build. ITS NOT A CHEVY..

[Bow Tie 67]

I was really trying to instigate a few more responses with my "there's no replacement for displacement". There is no doubt a LSX engine is the cats meow for affordability, economy, leaks, and $ per HP. I will say that my big block makes effortless power and I feel with injection it would be a strong contender for drivability. The carb does let me get away with murder on the race track and tuning. It eats up my .666 lift cam a 252/260 @ .050 pretty well where it will idle smooth at 1000 and cruise as low as 1600 in 5th. Lot's of average power.:thumbsup: I have to admit when I start it cold I would love for it to sit an idle without touching the gas.

( Driveability ) Bingo, jump in start and go. Because of this I drive my 69 alot more than I drove my 67. Now if I get another musclecar, it will be old school fun. :thumbsup: :cheers:

[Bow Tie 67]

I hope you are aware that the LS7 disighn is a steal from GM between a mopar botom end end a ford top end engine disign.

And that that engine in modern corvettes. are alouwd to use 1 to 1 1/2 quart of oil every1500/2000 miles.

And that fuel injections only hase 2 benifits.nr one is that is gives MPG at 50/60 mph and afther that it uses just as mutchs fuel at trotle as a regualr old school V8 engine. nr 2 you dont need to tune your ignition/carb twice a year.

Did you know that the LS7 engine in race corvettes only last 35 hours. then need a compleet rebuild ,due to a engine disight fauld where the piston squirts are to short!!!!..

Im a oil sponser in a international super car race class in Europe
LS 7 corvettes, Moslers V8 stars against ferarris / lamborginies/ aston Martin /
marcos / BMW / Mercs. ecetera.
The LS engine hase superior acseleration for sure top speed is great to say the least.
durabilety is mutch less and maintinese is mutch higher then there euro counter parts.

Also the rediculess price tag on hp parts for the LS engine and the corvette that GM and there vendors in the afthermarket artifisialy keeps high to push the corvette into the same leque as ferrari ecetera is rediculess to say the least.

buy a stok LS7 with 500 hp then try to buy a 700 hp LS 7 engine from a reputable engine builder like Kteck ecetera and your paying a exstra 10 to 15000 usd!!!. what is wrong here.........

If we build a 700 hp aluminum traditional ponticac engine mill with the same 4 inch stroke it wil beat up on the LS 7 engine torque wize plus durabilety it wil rev just as high and fuel consumtion will be the same.
same thing with a SBC ore BBC for that matter.

also for the record the GM LS7 hase NOTHING to do with a traditional chevy engine disighn its a CORPERATED engine build. ITS NOT A CHEVY..

This may all be true, now take a stock old school and a stock LS engine, bang for buck, superior fuel control = longer life. I was not talking about professional racing, who can afford that?

Oh and GM stealing from Ford or Chrysler does not bother me. I love my L92 and could care less if it was built by a terrorist. ( well maybe I would not admit who built it if that was the case )

[GregWeld]

This may all be true, now take a stock old school and a stock LS engine, bang for buck, superior fuel control = longer life. I was not talking about professional racing, who can afford that?

Oh and GM stealing from Ford or Chrysler does not bother me. I love my L92 and could care less if it was built by a terrorist. ( well maybe I would not admit who built it if that was the case )

You LS whore! :rofl: :rofl:

[rwhite692]

There is a LOT to like about the LS engines.

As Stuart noted, they are far less prone to leaks, and getting them running in retrofit applications has become very much a "plug-and-play" affair, with more support in the aftermarket all the time. Not to mention that (for the aluminum ones) you are getting an all-aluminum engine, which is saving a lot of weight off the nose of the car.

All that being said, I'm not using one on my current project, LOL...too much invested in my current plan. If I ever get around to building up my other 69, I'll definitely use an LS.

Now, if I was building up a vintage mustang, I'd be just salivating over the idea of getting my hands on that new 5.0 DOHC motor.

Can't wait to see who does a retrofit first!

[DOOM]

LS engines suck. :unibrow:

:rofl:

[DOOM]

Guys, I was having a discussion with a coworker today who is a car guy, but not really a car guy, if you know what I mean. Anyway, he argues the fact that if he still had his "69 Camaro he wouldn't be putting an LS motor in it. He states the fact that he wouldn't because everyone else is doing it and how everybody is putting LS's into their cars. So, I asked him, well what's the difference when LS's were not available and everyone was putting big block's into their cars? He then states that was all that was available was either a small block or a big block. Then I counter with newer technology and now an LS is pretty much all available now as far as Chevy is concerned. Unless you go retro with a 1st gen motor. What's you guys take on this. I just think some people fear the unknown and he is an old school guy who refuses to change. He just want to go against the grain and doesn't want it to seem as if he's jumping on the bandwagon.

I would of stopped this conversation after the first sentence......:D

[strtcar]

There is no replacement for displacement....

boost is that replacement :)

[jannes_z-28]

I am on my fourth season driving my LS1 powered 69 Z/28, I have covered almost 10.000 miles, most of them at highway speed passing many cars. It runs like a dream, mpg as any normal driver. The LS1 engine still has its sparkplugs it came with from the donor car. Only thing I've done to it is one oil/filter change.

All the other guys I know with SBC or BBC are struggling with their engines, can't drive long distances because of 8mpg or that they have some troubles with poor running or broken stuff.

It weighs 3300 lbs empty and runs pretty good for being a untouched 2001 Camaro engine.

Jan

[E.rodz]

I think your right on the fear of the unknown is the big thing for alot of people.I think this is why they invented the carb conversions for them witch makes no sense to me dollar for dollar pound for pound there is no comparison. I was a big and small block junkie until I pulled one apart and looked over all the improvements that that gm. did for these have you buddy do some math comparison how much would it take to build a 500 hp. small or big block and how much for a ls based conversion. don't forget all of the items like all the front drive acc. system alum block,alum. heads that flow over 300 cfm's roller cam just because there seems to be alot on this forum does not mean its to mainstream the people on here are just a little smarter than most hotrodders.after i opened the first ls based motor I sold all of my old small and big block stuff.just my 2 cents worth.:D

[Scorpner]

I can see both sides to the debate. I personally like the sound of the older engines and despite the LS performance, part of the fun is the individuality of the different engines of the 60's-70's. Each car had it's own distinctive sound and characteristics and you can sometimes tell what's coming down the road before you can see it. For some reason I've always thought that they were a lot like the aircraft from WWII. If you've ever been to an airshow you know when you hear some of these engines, you can feel it. For me the same goes when that older big block shows up. People stop and take notice of a big block with good exhaust and cam because it commands your attention.

Now I'm going to jump on the other side of the fence. You can't beat the performance of an LS engine. With the computer monitoring and controlling every aspect of the combustion process, it's possible to gain more power as well as economy along with emissions. There's nothing better for someone that wants the best power gains possible, or to take their cars to different events with the relatively higher cost of fuel. After all, a car that sits in the garage is basically useless. In keeping with my somewhat silly analogy, I guess this would be more like a jet fighter. It commands your attention too, but all jets tend to sound pretty much the same.

The one thing people don't always compare is what transmission is lined up with the engine and an LS engine isn't as likely to be mated to a TH350 if ever. lol
It would be interesting to see what an LS engine actually gets for MPG at 70 mph at the same gear ratio compared to a SBC.

That being said I know of a few SBC's with two barrels carbs that got close to 20 mpg back in the day. With that possibility, I wonder how close one of these older engines can come to an LS and keep the original sound? (Ie. Something like a 700r4(or T-56), crank trigger and fuel injection.) I was thinking that for the basic street cruiser it might be the best of both worlds.

[BritishGreen68]

LS engines suck. :unibrow:
:D :thumbsup:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Really liked how our LS performed. Prefer the sound of the SBC's and a BBC I owned though. Liked 'em all enough to put in a Tri-Five and/or a Camaro. Now looking at the LT-5 alternative; unique sound, looks great and less filling...up.

I've seen used ones go for $6K and under recently. Pretty good value IMO for a very low volume hand assembled blueprinted motor that helped set a number of endurance racing records at the time (March 1990) with a stock motor. For those interested its quite a story.

http://www.zr1netregistry.com/WRR.htm

I believe this is the biggest one out there at 440 cid. He's driven it long distances in addition to racing it (below).

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/wnyjazz/Engines/DSENGINE.jpg

rftrJFrfNnc&feature

[CreepinDeth]

I put an LS1 / 4L60e in my 78z in 2006. Best decision I ever made. I'm strongly considering selling the Rocket 350 / TH350 in my 1970 442 wannabe for an LY6 with the L92 heads. they flow 300-320cfm stock iirc, better then BBC heads. I prefer drivability over weekend warrior. But that's me, to each their own. :)

BTW I got that 12 Bolt I bought off you in finally and working. I took forever to get motivated to get it in. LOL

As Chad noted, I don't think there's really that many LS conversions out there. At Car Craft last month, with 5,000+ cars, there were very, very few EFI conversions of any make.

Agreed.

I had this discussion on Classic Oldsmobile (http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/general-discussion/25207-disturbing-trend.html) and some guys are just purists. I was jerking their chains quite a bit because Old's guys are a fickle bunch. They HATE IT when you put a Chevy motor in an Olds, even tho LS are GM engines.

I got the old "Well everyone is doing it so they're as common as bellybuttons". :rofl: I then asked how many Oldsmobile's they've seen with LS engines in them and I'll be damned if everyone didn't just get the deer in the headlights look. I probably found all of 3-5 total swaps doing various searches online. I told them they are EXTREMELY rare at this point in time.

[93Polo]

Really liked how our LS performed. Prefer the sound of the SBC's and a BBC I owned though. Liked 'em all enough to put in a Tri-Five and/or a Camaro. Now looking at the LT-5 alternative; unique sound, looks great and less filling...up.

I've seen used ones go for $6K and under recently. Pretty good value IMO for a very low volume hand assembled blueprinted motor that helped set a number of endurance racing records at the time (March 1990) with a stock motor. For those interested its quite a story.

http://www.zr1netregistry.com/WRR.htm

I believe this is the biggest one out there at 440 cid. He's driven it long distances in addition to racing it (below).

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/wnyjazz/Engines/DSENGINE.jpg

rftrJFrfNnc&feature

You can find them for $6k but the swap and mods are very expensive. I would still love to own a Zr1. Frank also owns a a Green 93 Zr1 I'd like to own.

SBC and BBC can sound great when built but vast majority sound like garbage at the local shows. IMO a stock LS motor with aftermarket exhaust sounds much better than your average SBC/BBC at cruise night running the standard small hydraulic flat tappet cams with mild compression.