custom spindles?

[race-rodz]

anybody got any expierince with custom fabbed speedway style spindles? i have been kickin the idea around, they are cheap, built to my specs, and with a forged alum hub/rotor carrier...... i can use whatever size brakes i want.

the other option is a set of one off milled out alum uprights with C5 bearing carriers, obviously this is waaaaaaaaay more money, and im really not sure if its a better way to go.

any insite would be great...thanks

[sinned]

I have a set designed and ready to be ordered. My hesitation is replacement should the unexpected happen. It would suck to have a month to get a replacement spindle.

[KAA]

Now this sounds very interesting. I'm curious to know just how "custom" you can get. Are the steering arms part of the spindle or bolt on? What about disc brake caliper mounting? Can they be machined to accept any type of balljoint, hub, etc? One thing I'd like to do is eliminate the 1" wheel adapters I'm using. It looks like I could have a custom made spindle with a 1" additional offset. Or is that a bad idea?

[sinned]

I can dictate the height, pin drop, pin type, steering arm height and length, amount of hub set back (there you go Keith), and KPI. It helps to know how to read an analysis and obviously have access to one. You have to provide them with every single spec down to the tenth of an inch.

[KAA]

Can I just send them my B-body spindle and have them make me a new spindle that fixes all the problems?? :)

[sinned]

HAHAHAHA...no.

[KAA]

So where can I find the dimensions of the B-body spindle? Seems like that would be a good place to start. Then make the changes I want instead of starting from scratch. Pin location and steering arm would be the only things I'd change.

[ProTouring442]

Can I just send them my B-body spindle and have them make me a new spindle that fixes all the problems?? :)


As I understand it, the ATS spindles address many, if not most of the B-Body spindle issues. They also will be making a set for those of us who already have the B-Body mod done so we won't have to change ball joints. :D

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"

[sinned]

So where can I find the dimensions of the B-body spindle? Seems like that would be a good place to start. Then make the changes I want instead of starting from scratch. Pin location and steering arm would be the only things I'd change.
Go grab another one at the wrecker and start making some measurements. You may also want to change KPI.

The ATS spindle is a better alternative to the "B" spindle but Speedway spindles are much better. Remember that the AFX was not designed for the "A" body, it was designed for the "F" body which has a different set of needs. It just so happens to work pretty good on the "A" body as well, but not perfect by any means.

[KAA]

You may also want to change KPI.

Reduce the angle?

[Derek69SS]

What would a pair of custom-made spindles cost? Would it be possible to get the cost down if someone (that'd be you Dennis ;) ) were to get a "group purchase" together of the optimal A-body spindle design?

[Musclerodz]

Dennis, I thought the "A" and "F" spindles were interchangable except for the bolt on steering arms. Did i miss something or did someone tell me wrong.

Mike

[sinned]

Keith, KPI needs to be increased. Around 11* would work well to reduce scrub radius.

Derek, I already tried that, even at 1000 lot orders the price is still the same. The logic is that they are the only ones offering that service so there is no competition for you to shop at. They also mentioned that stay busy year round building and the process is the same for each, no timesavings by batch building.

Mike, the "A" and "F" spindles are interchangeable but the aspects that ATS changed were advantageous to the "F" body while only marginally helped the "A" body. They are better than "B" spindles but again, there are better options.

[Musclerodz]

Mike, the "A" and "F" spindles are interchangeable but the aspects that ATS changed were advantageous to the "F" body while only marginally helped the "A" body. They are better than "B" spindles but again, there are better options.
Gottcha. I thought they were the same, but did not consider the changes made for the ATS spindle.

Mike

[race-rodz]

wow, this topic really took off...thats what i get for goin to work i guess :D

i actually decided to build my own as per the software specs, my jig parts should be back from the machinist this week, all the spindle parts should be in begining of next week, except for the steering arms, which will be made by the same guy making the jig.

obviously this isnt for the faint of heart, in fact i probably wont even be final welding them, leave that to a real welder :) wonder how busy matt is :unibrow:

but my reasoning was simply time frame, and having a spare set made if needed, the turn around time for custom fabbed spindles sucks, and should you want or need a replacement...you are S.O.L.

i will make sure to post pics during the process

[sinned]

having a spare set made if needed, the turn around time for custom fabbed spindles sucks, and should you want or need a replacement...you are S.O.L.

Exactly the reason I am going to compromise and run the Coleman spindles. They are a regualr stocking item and I can have another one in a day if need be. The turn around on the custom designed peices are a few weeks at best. They also use off the shelf (OEM) bearings, seals, and hubs...sort of.

[pist0lpete]

Who sells coleman spindles and would these be compatible with coleman brakes I assume?

[race-rodz]

www.colemanracing.com or www.stockcarproducts.com

[PTAddict]

Exactly the reason I am going to compromise and run the Coleman spindles. They are a regualr stocking item and I can have another one in a day if need be. The turn around on the custom designed peices are a few weeks at best. They also use off the shelf (OEM) bearings, seals, and hubs...sort of.

Are you talking about one of these:

http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=31_559


Which off the shelf ones are you going to get? Which hubs and bearings do they use? Which suspension analysis are you using to zero in on your geometry? Sorry for all the questions, but this might be something I'd like to do for my 2nd gen f-body.

[KAA]

Keith, KPI needs to be increased. Around 11* would work well to reduce scrub radius. So let me see if I understand this correctly. By increasing KPI, the intersection of the imaginary line drawn through the upper and lower balljoints and the tire contact patch would move outward closer to the center of the contact patch? Or another way to visualize it, the upper balljoint would move in closer to the vehicle with the snout in the same horizontal position?

[PTAddict]

So let me see if I understand this correctly. By increasing KPI, the intersection of the imaginary line drawn through the upper and lower balljoints and the tire contact patch would move outward closer to the center of the contact patch? Or another way to visualize it, the upper balljoint would move in closer to the vehicle with the snout in the same horizontal position?

You got it. Of course, you could move the lower ball joint outward as well. Whether you could move the upper ball joint inward enough with just alignment, I don't know - so you might need custom upper control arms.

[race-rodz]

Are you talking about one of these:

http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=31_559


Which off the shelf ones are you going to get? Which hubs and bearings do they use? Which suspension analysis are you using to zero in on your geometry? Sorry for all the questions, but this might be something I'd like to do for my 2nd gen f-body.

yes, those are the basic style of spindle, dennis will have to chime in on which one he is gonna run. mine use a GN style snout, and a winters forged hub with built in rotor carrier. i looked at all the different options to see if i could use an off shelf item, but nothin fits my 1 off design even close, so after researching the build process, i decided to build my own.

i have more time and money into my modular jig than expected, but i can build my spindles and make design changes if needed in no time flat.

[sinned]

I am running the Impala 9" version. It uses a full size ball joint taper and full size wheel bearings/seals. For a budget hub I am going to cut off the rotor hat from a pair of full size rotors and machine the hub OD to fit a generic rotor hat.

[PTAddict]

I am running the Impala 9" version. It uses a full size ball joint taper and full size wheel bearings/seals. For a budget hub I am going to cut off the rotor hat from a pair of full size rotors and machine the hub OD to fit a generic rotor hat.

Thanks Dennis. I can see why you'd choose that set of options. I've tried to find engineering drawings for those spindles - have you found any? King pin angle, king pin height, steering arm length and offset, etc?

[sinned]

I've tried to find engineering drawings for those spindles - have you found any? King pin angle10*, they will change at your request for a little more money

King pin heightThe spindle pin is at 3.75" measured from the bottom of the LBJ mounting boss

Steering arm length steering arm length is 6" center to center EDIT, checked the arms again today; the left arm is 5.5" while the right is 6". Calling tomorrow to see about having a r/s arm built with l/s length
OffsetAckerman is zero
Anything else?

[PTAddict]

Thanks!

Scott

[fbsideoiler427]

I am running the Impala 9" version. It uses a full size ball joint taper and full size wheel bearings/seals. For a budget hub I am going to cut off the rotor hat from a pair of full size rotors and machine the hub OD to fit a generic rotor hat.


This is on my 67 fastback........

[race-rodz]

where did those come from? i havent seen any with the lower taper as part of the steering arm that bolts to the upright. btw, 8 piston calipers :wow:

[sinned]

where did those come from? i havent seen any with the lower taper as part of the steering arm that bolts to the upright. btw, 8 piston calipers :wow:
They look exactly like mine.

Are you running the offset length steering arms Sideoiler?

[race-rodz]

nevermind.... had my head up my a$$ again, i was thinkin wide 5 style fabbed spindles where the lower taper and steering arm is welded into the upright.



so if i was to use the impala style spindle with gn snout, then the winters hubs would work..... right?

im thinkin i could possibly run the off the shelf impala spindle, and adjust the r.c. with balljoints to get back to the same point as with custom spindle pin height.

[sinned]

so if i was to use the impala style spindle with gn snout, then the winters hubs would work..... right? Yep

im thinkin i could possibly run the off the shelf impala spindle, and adjust the r.c. with balljoints to get back to the same point as with custom spindle pin height. Your on track. .

I heard back from Coleman this morning. Make sure to order your steering arms both for the left side; one front steer and one rear steer. This way they will be the same length and the left side is shorter maintaining the stering ratio and turning radius.

[race-rodz]

ordering them today, and will still be faster than building my own, thanks for the steering arm info.

[540]

Can you guys give us some part# and prices also will this be conparable to CS&C or ?
What brakes can you run?
Thanks,

[sinned]

Can you guys give us some part# and prices also will this be conparable to CS&C or ?
What brakes can you run?
Thanks,
I'll have final numbers very soon as to how well it looks on paper, initial inputs look like it will best just about anything on the market for "A" bodies. I am going to hold off on listing a complete list of parts as I still run into snafus (see the steering arm mentioned above). Once it's complete I'll have a breakdown for all.

As for brakes, they are designed for a Wilwood style caliper with a floating rotor however due to the modular design you could adapt any brakes you wanted.

[540]

Thanks.

Looking foward to the final release of info.

[KAA]

I am running the Impala 9" version. It uses a full size ball joint taper and full size wheel bearings/seals. For a budget hub I am going to cut off the rotor hat from a pair of full size rotors and machine the hub OD to fit a generic rotor hat.

I've been trying to figure out what ball joints work with that spindle. The ones Coleman calls out are different than what I have. It looks like I should be fine with my lower ball joints becuase they have the same taper but I'll need to replace the uppers. I was most concerned about the lowers.

I'm doing what you're gonna do for hubs. I got mine off a '85 Caprice which is considered full size but I'm not sure if they'll work with the Coleman spindle. Any idea? The only other major consideration would be the steering arm and outer tie rod clearing my wheels. With a 2.5" pin drop, it doesn't look good.

[KAA]

Denny,

I was wondering how you measured the 2.5" pin drop? My "A" spindle measures 2" from the bottom of the ball joint boss to the pin centerline. If the Coleman spindle is 3.75", that seems like a 1.75" drop to me. Am I missing something?

[Mean 69]

I've been trying to figure out what ball joints work with that spindle.

The LBJ taper depends upon the steering arm used. They have two different variations, one is for the full size GM ball joint, the other is for a Mopar style BJ. They also offer ball joint "sleeves" so you can make or modify your ownlower control arms (uppers too, for that matter).

When Den gets his Impy hubs, it will be a good idea to compare the wheel mounting difference with their big ole' aluminum hub (like the one shown in the pic with the AMG brakes) that has an integral rotor mount. Also a good thing to see if the hub od (where it fits into the wheel register) is too big for a typical wheel, my guess is that Den's approach to modifying a stock hub will be far less painful for most folks going this direction.

By the way, if you are really 'core, Coleman will sell you just the pin, you can make your own spindle. But, if you aren't an ME and pro fabricator, I'd pass, this is a HIGHLY stressed suspension piece. Go get 'em Den, I am really interested in how the geometry works out.

Mark

[sinned]

Getting closer, still going back and forth with Coleman getting the right steering arms.

Keith, I'll re-measure the pin heights tomorrow for you. Yes, the Caprice hubs will work.

[KAA]

The LBJ taper depends upon the steering arm used. Ah ha. Now it's getting clearer. And raises another concern. With the balljoint going in the steering arm and the steering arm being bolted to the upright vs. cast or forged in, is that really safe for a street driven car? Seems like an awful lot of load on the steering arm to me.

[sinned]

Ah ha. Now it's getting clearer. And raises another concern. With the balljoint going in the steering arm and the steering arm being bolted to the upright vs. cast or forged in, is that really safe for a street driven car? Seems like an awful lot of load on the steering arm to me.
PLENTY strong, you need to see these arms. The bolts that attach the steering arm to the upright are 7/16 fine thread and attach on either side of the ball joint. A majority of the loading is between the LBJ and steering linkage which makes this arrangement better anyways (all the loading is in a one-piece solid link). These links hold up fine after banging against concrete retaining walls and other cars for 500 miles at 190MPH, they should be fine for a few potholes on the street.

[KAA]

Hmmm. I wonder how often they change them out. Are you getting aluminum or steel steering arms?

[sinned]

Aluminum

[KAA]

I am running the Impala 9" version. It uses a full size ball joint taper and full size wheel bearings/seals. For a budget hub I am going to cut off the rotor hat from a pair of full size rotors and machine the hub OD to fit a generic rotor hat. Make sure you get the correct ones. Not all Full size hubs used the same inner bearings. You'll need ones that use the larger BR5 inner bearing found on the 69-76 Impala/Caprice. 78-93 used the smaller BR6 bearing. The '85 Caprice hubs that I'm using will not work with the Coleman spindle.

[sinned]

Already have the rotors and the bearings, they work great. 1975 Impala parts for those interested.

[KAA]

How are you going to adapt your steering linkage to those steering arms?

[sinned]

I use rod ends for outer tie rods and washers for height spacers with steel tubing for an adjusting link...no problems

[68-GTO]

Dennis, i've been reading all the post about this coleman spindle swap here and on PT.com, it definitly sounds like a swap i want to do rather than "so-so" ATS spindles. Once you work out all the snafus of the swap could you please make a complete parts list for everyone interested. BTW, who far along are you with the swap, i remember seeing you start talking about it in what, november??? Just wondering on the progress...

[sinned]

Dennis, I’ve been reading all the post about this Coleman spindle swap here and on PT.com, it definitely sounds like a swap I want to do rather than "so-so" ATS spindles To be fair, the ATS stuff is a little better than so-so, just not the geometry I’m looking for.

Once you work out all the snafus of the swap could you please make a complete parts list for everyone interested? That is the plan

BTW, who far along are you with the swap; I remember seeing you start talking about it in what, November??? Just wondering on the progress Some of the items are fairly pricey...waiting for funds. I'm about 90% confident the parts I have mapped out will all work together. The spindles, steering arms, brake brackets, bearings, etc... are on my bench. I also have the ball joints ready and new UCA's on the way. The hubs I have not fully decided on and even as of yesterday I was contemplating returning the spindles and starting over with GN hubs, so until it's on the chassis nothing is final
.Stay tuned to this station

[Marcus SC&C]

68-GTO,as Denny pointed out there`s nothing so-so about the ATS spindles. The geometry may be less aggressive than Denny`s franken setup he`s working on but we`re not building race cars here. What works great on the track can also be miserable to drive,wear tires fast (note how often they change them on race cars),or require non off the shelf swaybars,shock rates or spring rates to get the car balanced and both ends working together properly. Ask me how I know? ;) I`ve done more than one custom suspension over the years that looked awesome on paper(or the computer) but required a huge amount of tweaking and tuning on it and the rest of the car to get it to all work well together.
Now don`t get me wrong I`m NOT saying that Denny`s setup won`t work well and I`m not saying it`ll have any of those problems. What I am saying is that more radical systems cause more development and tuning issues. Really if you want to build a street legal race car why not just cut the frame off at the firewall,replace it with a Howe or Coleman front stub frame that the race parts are intended to work with and gain a R&P,coilovers with a better motion ratio,mounts for adj. swaybars,room for bigger tires and save a bunch of weight? Mark SC&C

[Mean 69]

Den, I'd get dimeensions for the GN hubs before I would buy them, pay particular attention to the wheel register diameter versus the diameter of the hub in that area, I have to lathe down the drive plates and the covers on the floater rear, to fit inside the wheels I was using. Also, make sure you get 1/2" studs installed, Coleman will do the custom drilling for a reasonable fee, they are super good to work with. If I recall, even their Impala hubs were too fat to fit inside a normal wheel, but I might be mistaken. It feels to me that the path of least resistance is to cut a stock impy/full size car hub like you had suggested before, lathe it down so a replacement type rotor will fit over it.

A super rigid spindle would be nice for my car right now, I still have horrible pad knockback, and it was not too confidence inspiring at Willow Spring's last weekend, that track is FAST.

Mark

[PTAddict]

A super rigid spindle would be nice for my car right now, I still have horrible pad knockback, and it was not too confidence inspiring at Willow Spring's last weekend, that track is FAST.

Mark

I remember seeing on one of the aftermarket brake websites recently, "anti-knockback springs" or something like that - perhaps springs that go under the caliper pistons to keep them extended?

Aha, this isn't where I found it, but it describes them:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/glossary.shtml

"Knockback springs : Small coil springs fitted inside the caliper pistons of some brakes to prevent the pads from excessive knock back from flexing of the suspension system or run out in the discs. If the disc run out is within specification and the upright/axle assembly is sufficiently rigid, there should be no need for knockback springs. However, when operating conditions are severe with regard to either generated side force or bumps, they may be required on the best of designs. "

[sinned]

Den, I'd get dimeensions for the GN hubs before I would buy them, pay particular attention to the wheel register diameter versus the diameter of the hub in that area, I have to lathe down the drive plates and the covers on the floater rear, to fit inside the wheels I was using.
Mark
I have spoken in depth with Rory over at Coleman, I am going with Impala aluminum hubs drilled with a 5X4.75 pattern. The hub snout is 3" and the rotor drive plate is part of the backside of the hub. The studs are still 5/8" but McMaster has a solution to that...1/2X20 threaded coil inserts with stake in place drive pins.

[KAA]

I have spoken in depth with Rory over at Coleman, I am going with Impala aluminum hubs drilled with a 5X4.75 pattern. The hub snout is 3" and the rotor drive plate is part of the backside of the hub. The studs are still 5/8" but McMaster has a solution to that...1/2X20 threaded coil inserts with stake in place drive pins.
They told me they dual dill the aluminum hubs now with both 5x5 and 5x4.75 wheel stud patterns. For an extra $25 per hub, they'll drill the second set of holes for 1/2" studs instead of 5/8".

[sinned]

They told me they dual dill the aluminum hubs now with both 5x5 and 5x4.75 wheel stud patterns. For an extra $25 per hub, they'll drill the second set of holes for 1/2" studs instead of 5/8".
Yes, they are drilled for 5X4.75, I hadn't discussed only drilling for 1/2" studs however. $50 for the pair with 1/2" studs or 15 bucks for McMaster inserts, both just as strong. In fact, I think the steel inserts would actually hold up better long term than tapped aluminum holes (assuming you run threaded studs as I do vs. press-in versions). Keith, you must be the guy he keeps insisting is me. Every time I talk to him he says "didn't we just talk about this".

[KAA]

Ya, I've talked to him a few times. :)

[Mean 69]

Rory and team are incredible. If you haven't used Coleman before, I can't say enough about their service.

PT: I have read and heard about the anti-knockback springs too. I should research this further, but it is clear to me that the issue is the flexure, and I really want to solve the issue rather than masking it with a bandaid. If it flexes, it probably isn't good, 'cause at some time it could yield, and I'd have to think that something like that wouldn't be good. :_paranoid

Ahhh, the joys of hot-rodding. Fix one issue (in my case, front brake capacity, I switched from the flaoting PBR twin piston, 13 x 1.1" rotor deal to a full Alcon six pot, fixed caliper, and big ole 13 x 1.25" rotors, and I still don't trust my brakes!!), and create another. We're a sick bunch I tell you.
M

[PTAddict]

We're a sick bunch I tell you.

I'll second that. I didn't put "addict" in my handle for no reason :)

[68-GTO]

What type of wheel backspacing would need to be run with this new spindle set up for a 9.5" rim in front?

[sinned]

I'll let you know as sson as I get them assembled. Backspacing won't be as critical as diameter will. 17" will be a must.

[68-GTO]

Cool, i already had 17's in mind, oh yeah also, what options do we have for brakes with these spindles, im interested in some wilwood 13" rotors for the front but im not sure if they'll work. Thanks alot dennis for going through the effort to get these spindles to work.

[sinned]

Any Wilwood brake option you want from 11.75 rotors to 13" rotors with anything from 2 piston to 6 piston calipers.

[david@ronsraceshop]

As I understand it, the ATS spindles address many, if not most of the B-Body spindle issues. They also will be making a set for those of us who already have the B-Body mod done so we won't have to change ball joints. :D

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"

I here they should have set done in a few months for the 2nd gen Camaro s and will use all C5/C6 Corvette brake stuff

and they should have the 1st gen stuff ready go now