The Inhaler - All-Electric 23 Model T Autocross/Drag Truck

[toddshotrods]

I hope my madness is welcome here. I know you guys love the growl and snarl of a badass V8 (as do I), so I am hoping this won't make you too nauseous. If numbers help any, in full race trim my electric motor will be capable of 500hp/1000ft-lb, with all 1000ft-lb available at 0rpm! Final weight goal is 1200lbs. To keep it from sounding like an electric drill on steroids, I am working on some advanced acoustic tricks, with the goal of something more like an F1 car at full boil - that's the goal anyway. More on all that later though.

The real point of this whole project was just to have a platform to display my CAD work. The compact electric powertrain gives me more freedom in design, without sacrificing performance, and opens doors for me outside the world of hot rodding. I'm really challenging myself with the design. I want it to unmistakably be a modern race car, but still look antique. For autocrossing, I chose IFS and I am going to try to make that whole setup look right - kind of like putting a Model T body on an old Ferrari grand prix chassis. Blah, blah...:rolleyes:

What it's supposed to be (special thanks to Derek69SS for the original T pic):
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/023.jpg
Note : don't read too seriously into the "Accused of" section - just having fun with words to play on the electric theme - I'm not a real "greenie". ;)



I actually started this project in 2005, but got side-tracked with surviving. It originally had an SBC in it. I sold my shop in 2008 and moved to Columbus to concentrate on CAD. I left the Inhaler in storage at a so-called friend's shop for a few months. When I went back to get it, it was sitting outside in front of his shop! Anyway, this is last June, after I got it here and started working on it again. I was preparing to graft Fiero front suspension on the chassis (more on why I chose such an oddball setup later). The back is GM G-body (triangulated 4-link) snipped whole from an 83 Cutlass.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/008.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/017.jpg
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http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/035.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/036.jpg

Dig the Cragar SS wheels?! :rofl: It's short for carving through cones, but the 90" wheelbase meets the NHRA minimum.

Keep going or get lost?

[GHOSTDANCER]

Keep'um coming :thumbsup: :cheers:

[ArisESQ]

i really dig this!!

so what kind of acoustic tricks did you have in mind?? and what are the details on the motor?

[wellis77]

I like this concept and am looking forward to seeing it progress.

[toddshotrods]

Thanks guys! :thumbsup:



...and what are the details on the motor?
It's an 11"(dia), DC, General Electric motor from a Hyster forklift. Stock so far, but eventually it will get a full race build. A lot of times the biggest part of that is just re-wrapping the coils with higher temp insulation, and going over the rest of the motor with a fine-toothed comb. The wrapped coils get coated with epoxy and baked, brushes are upgraded, etc. It's pretty amazing that a slightly reworked forklift motor is capable of the performance it is.

I'm going much further. I'm eventually having the coils custom wound, and a couple other tricks inside. Rewinding the coils is like grinding a custom cam in a gas engine. You can put the powerband where you need it. The thing is, I need to do some testing in near stock configuration to develop a powertrain baseline and gauge vehicle dynamics. With enough information, I can tell the guy what I want the motor to do and he'll design the internals - another will do the custom winding and rebuild the motor.



...so what kind of acoustic tricks did you have in mind??...
In a nutshell, to really push a DC electric motor you have to provide external forced air cooling. I'm doing the CAD model now for a blower that will push around 500cfm at 190+ mph (more air speed and volume than pressure). I am modeling the case to lightly resemble an old Frenzel supercharger. It will be mounted directly to the motor case, be driven by the motor, and blow directly into the cooling ports. The combination of the huge blower running with the accelerator pedal, sucking and pushing large volumes of air, and its thin aluminum case resonating the internal sounds of the motor, are what I am working with. I have to determine the frequencies of as many of those sounds as possible, and tune the enclosure to amplify some, cancel some...

The intake side of the forced-air system will have three spun metal velocity stacks, for a retro touch, and these will also serve as megaphones to amplify the good stuff. Hope all that makes sense. :)

[toddshotrods]

To couple the driveshaft to the motor (direct drive, no transmission) I needed an adapter to mate two pieces.

One is a PTO disc from a large tractor. It had a riveted hub with the right spline pattern for my motor, and it's slip fit like a driveshaft slip yoke would be:
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/015.jpg

And a Spicer 1350-series flange yoke.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/038.jpg
Neither one of these parts is up to the task of handling the torque of the race motor, but they will get the truck moving for initial testing and a little fun. Another trick inside the motor, when the full race build happens will be a custom shaft with TH400 splines on the output side, so I can eliminate this adapter.

http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/043.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/045.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/046.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/047.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/050.jpg

Finished adapter assembly:
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/052.jpg

Sorry for all the crappy pics. My camera was broken and I took a lot of these with my cell. Eventually, I bought a little Nikon, so the quality will get better.

[toddshotrods]

Now for a little of what I do... ;)

Here's a rendering of the CAD model for the rear motor mount.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/024.jpg

3x12.25x14.5" 6061 billet clamped down and ready to make chips.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/059.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/062.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/071.jpg
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http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/090.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/110.jpg

It bolts to a 3" tubular crossmember on the frame with two .750" 12pt, grade 8, bolts on the ends; and four .750" studs in the middle. There will be a machined and fabricated inner structure in that crossmember, with threaded bushings for the bolts, and sleeves for the studs, that positively locates the motor and feeds the torque into the chassis properly.

There is also a minimum of .750" section width in the mount, where the motor mounts to it. So, in essence, it is a glorified .750" motor plate with a very stout base and huge fasteners.

[toddshotrods]

Every so often I have to step away to preserve my sanity. To keep from getting too far away from the project mentally, I usually work on plans and do research for parts to fit those plans.

I hadn't made a final decision on wheels, so I decided to do that for this recess period. After looking at wheels until I fell asleep a few nights in a row, I finally settled (I think ;) ) on Forgeline ZX3Ps - brushed center/gloss black rims. I think they have a slight resemblance to the original T wagon wheels. I'll probably run 18s up front and 19s in back. I wanted a really lightweight wheel, but big enough to fit huge brakes. Even though the truck is going to be a featherweight, there won't be any engine braking. I want to kind of go off the deep end with the brakes to make sure there's no fade after repeated abuse. I still have to figure out what those big brakes are going to be, but needed to figure out how much room I'd have for them first.

A question: What are the best double-adjustable coil-overs for racing? I thought I was going to be running QA1s but after reading some comments about them in another thread here, I'm thinking maybe I need to find something a little more hardcore. Suggestions?

The rendering in my first post has been updated with the ZX3Ps. Hold control down and refresh if you still see HREs (I think it's shift for MACs).

[toddshotrods]

Rolled it outside today to get a good look at it, while I work on plans and 3D models.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/125.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/126.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/127.jpg
Don't mind the rust. The rear control arms will be replaced with Alston G-body ProPower Arms. The rust on the frame is from the so-called friend who put it outside. The body and bed are just a cheapo fiberglass parts that give me something to work off. The plan is to pull molds and lay-up the real parts as carbon fiber, Kevlar, and foam composites.

Next, I plan to narrow the bed a little, put some wedge in the body, get the track nose cut and installed, and start building the roof buck. I want to see the whole vehicle mocked up, plus I need all that in place to do the cage.

[78 typelt]

:thumbsup: great work

[toddshotrods]

Thanks 78. :)

[rwhite692]

Really cool project. What are the specs on that GE electric motor?

[toddshotrods]

Really cool project. What are the specs on that GE electric motor?

Thanks. :)

It's an 11" (dia) motor from a Hyster forklift. Underwhelming stock specs are:

DC 36/48 volts
14.00 KW
RPM 1000
60 Min Duty Cycle
Class H Insulation
330 Amps

It's currently wound SepEx (separately excited armature and field), but I will be converting to series wound field coils. I'll probably swap in a set of refurbished field coils initially, but the plan is to custom wind a set for this application. It should turn 5-6K, and put out around 500hp/1000ft-lbs. The ultimate battery pack will be 330v/2070amps, and the motor will be built to make use of that. The controller is a new one coming out (currently in development) with 500v/2500amp max numbers. That battery pack is actually capable of supporting over 900hp, but I don't think my motor will be capable of that.

[strtcar]

Wow, really neat project. Keep the updates coming.

[toddshotrods]

Wow, really neat project. Keep the updates coming.

Thanks strtcar! :)

I've been working on plans and design stuff and I am really happy with how things are working out. I have countless hours in little details that will show up later in the build.

I figured out today that my plan to hide the roll cage in plain sight is working perfectly. I think I can get the rear down down tubes to pass inside the main body, meaning they won't be hanging out in mid-air going from the main hoop into the bed. From first glance, you'll be able to pick up clues that there is a full cage, and find more and more of it as you look deeper. The front bars will be exposed (running on either side of the motor), the rear down tubes will be visible inside the bed poking out of the body (when you get close enough to see in it), and a little of the front hoops running down behind the windshield posts will be seen. Just enough combined with the wheel/tire combo, and IFS, to let people know that there's something more sinister going on. :unibrow:

[MarkM66]

Cool project.

Maybe you already stated this, but what kind of batteries are you going to use? How many or what size will they be?

Any idea on milage range between charges?

[toddshotrods]

Cool project.

Maybe you already stated this, but what kind of batteries are you going to use? How many or what size will they be?

Any idea on milage range between charges?

Thanks Mark. :)

Since I am so freakin longwinded :rolleyes: , I underlined the answers to your questions, so you can skim through if you don't feel like reading yet another one of my novels. :lol:

Actually I didn't mention that - I meant to but forgot. I plan to use A123 (26650) cells. They're lithium-based, but I can't remember the exact compositition right now. They're the highest energy density of any currently available battery. They are what come in the larger DeWalt cordless tool battery packs. The downside is they're not commerically available. The company won't sell them to the general public. I have three options: Get an inside connection, get sponsorship, or buy 225 new DeWalt packs from a distributor and start dissecting (and recycling a lot of plastic).

They're little round cylindrical cells, about 1" diameter, and a tad over 2.5" long. I need 1800 of them! :wow: 18 strings of 100 series-wired cells, then paralleled. They're 3.3 volts each, so the 100 cells in series gives 330 volts for each string; then wiring those strings in parallel gives the 2070 amps. The other thing about these cells is they're the only ones that can be pushed as hard as they can, to deliver 2000 amps from such a small pack. I've done the math on all the others, and nothing comes close.

To hold them all together, I will be doing CAD/CNC cases that the cells drop into. The cases will fit under the seats, between the floor and belly pan, and between the frame rails and driveshaft tunnel, and kind of roll up behind the seats a little. I think it's going to work out to three cases on each side. That would make each case about 50-60lbs - easy to handle. The whole pack will weigh no more than 400lbs with cases, battery management system, etc. That's the key to the 1200lb final weight goal.

I should get 50-60 miles off a charge, driving conservatively, and maybe half that pushing hard. The funny thing is I would have been happy with ten, because I just wanted to be able to race. The additional range comes from A123 cells being so incredible. I think I'll have enough to do some short road courses. I'm seriously considering a little generator trailer (with a matching T bed) that would give me pretty much unlimited range. It would also be nice for recharging at the track.

[toddshotrods]

I've been working with the company that is developing the new motor controller, and had to revisit my own plans to make sure my truck's design isn't the weak link in the development chain. With the new battery chemistries available now (for a price) the day for serious electric-powered performance is just around the corner. The controller being developed will be capable of 1.6 MEGAWATTS of power!!! That's 2145 horsepower!!! Also, the torque of electric motors is usually substantially higher than the horsepower numbers, and available from 0 rpm!

I don't really anticipate making or using that much power, but my plans were for a relatively measly 500hp/1000ft-lbs. The main limiting factor was my 90" wheelbase, which was purposed to make it fun to drive on an autocross course, and extremely challenging in a straight line. If I tap even half the power that controller is capable of supporting, a 90-inch wheelbase becomes more of a liability than a challenge. I decided to stretch the wheelbase out to 108 inches, and use the current mild steel chassis as a development mule. I plan to eventually replace the whole chassis with a full round tube, chrome-moly, one that will be heat-treated after welding. That plan came from a discussion on this forum about roll cages.

I revisted my artwork to reflect the new changes and add more detail. It still has the 2x3" rectangular frame rails, that will really be replaced with round tubing. I didn't have to stretch the front-three-quarter view rendering because I had already taken artistic license with it, and stretched it out to make it look better. That should have been my first clue. :) I added some roll cage tubes, the forced-air cooling unit, a better representation of the grille, and the motor controller in the bed. There's also a 108" side-view, and full sketch of the rear-three-quarter view.

The stretch also provides room for more batteries - the cases will extend from under the seats, back, and under the bed. I didn't do those in the rendering or drawings yet. It goes from 1800 cells to 2992 of them. The output increases to 449 volts/2530 amps. The truck's weight will go up from 1200lbs to about 1500lbs. Range should increase to around 100 miles per charge.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/035.jpg

[avewhtboy]

Really interesting idea you have going here, looking forward to seeing it
progress, will sure be unique in the road racing world.

[silver63c10]

This is an awesome project, man, should be an absolute blast to autocross. Looks like it will look pretty mean, too. Definitely can't wait to see more progress.

EVs have really gotten my interest lately, it's almost like hot rodding back in the 50's was with all the new tech and progress being made. I've been toying with an attempt at an electric bike, but haven't had the brainpower, or excess cash :lol:, to devote to even getting started on the research for it.

[toddshotrods]

Thanks guys. :)



...will sure be unique in the road racing world.
I think race rods are the next evolutionary step for 20s and 30s hot rods, following in the footsteps of musclecars. My little electric version is just a twist on the idea. The Factory Five hot rods are already on the street, kind of leading the way, and there is an article in one of the latest magazines about the direction of hot rodding in general that also suggest this. It was a no-brainer for me because I love the artistic aspects of street rods, and the raw adrenaline rush of racing.




...Looks like it will look pretty mean, too...
Thanks for that. I want it to look like it's a little pissed off, and not a nice sweet little cruiser! :mad: :cool: Then it'll look right when I'm beating the living $h!# out of it! :unibrow:




...EVs have really gotten my interest lately, it's almost like hot rodding back in the 50's was with all the new tech and progress being made. I've been toying with an attempt at an electric bike, but haven't had the brainpower, or excess cash :lol:, to devote to even getting started on the research for it.
That's what I have been telling some of the more serious environmental EV guys. I am in it for the performance potential, but even their efforts to build daily commuters kind of reminds me of stories I read about how hot rodding developed. It's a little cottage industry, and some serious innovation is coming out of it. Hope you do that bike someday, it's a unique experience.

I've been entertaining the thought of a lowered, smoothed-out, 68-72 Chevy pickup, with a couple Flowmaster original 40-series to tow this thing around with, and give me my American V8 fix. :D I guess a Ford would match better, but I'm a Chevy guy at heart...

[avewhtboy]

My dad has an old toyota truck with a bad motor, he wanted to make it into an electric vehicle so we bought an electric forklift and robbed the motor and switches. We bought a 72 volt controller and wired it all up.

http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/?action=view&current=ElectricTruck2_0001.flv

[toddshotrods]

My dad has an old toyota truck with a bad motor, he wanted to make it into an electric vehicle so we bought an electric forklift and robbed the motor and switches. We bought a 72 volt controller and wired it all up.

http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/?action=view&current=ElectricTruck2_0001.flv
Cool. Isn't it kind eerie feeling a vehicle move with no sound preceeding the action? I did some work on a guy's EV, and got my first experience with them last month. The first time was just watching it move in and out of the garage - completely silent, very strange. Then, he took me for a driveway ride and pulled a few mild (800 motor amps) pulls from a dead stop. Sitting in the car and actually hearing my bones popping, and the fabric of my clothing rubbing on the upholstery, then suddenly being in motion - almost bizarre.

Made me realize the challenge I'm facing to make my project feel and sound how I want it to. It really drives home the point of how much sound plays in hot rodding. The sounds and sensations you experience just before a driver/vehicle do something spectacular are an important part of the experience, that can easily be taken for granted. I like challenges though. :cool:

[toddshotrods]

I'm trying to get back to work on it, but between juggling business, work, and school it's been slow going. The design was also not sitting well with me, and I was reluctant to start cutting and welding until I had peace with it. The problem was the stretch gave it a classic long nose hot rod profile, but I want it to look like a pickup truck. I eventually decided to add the extra inches behind the cab, and stretch the bed instead of the nose.

I did this photo-based rendering to test the idea - I like it. I also decided I want a full hood to help visually balance the proportions better.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/044.jpg

I'm hoping to get hands-on soon, and at least get the whole thing set up, so it looks like the rendering. If I can finally see a truck rather than a bunch of parts, maybe it'll light a fire under my... :cool:

[boonedog]

i like the looks of the smoothies over teh pt wheels they dont look right on that early of a car in my opinion.... But thats not worth much:lol:

[toddshotrods]

i like the looks of the smoothies over the pt wheels they dont look right on that early of a car in my opinion.... But thats not worth much:lol:
I'm confused. Did you mean to say you don't like them? It says you like them but they don't look right! :D Or have I not had enough coffee yet? :_paranoid :)

The smoothies would probably work well if I went with a complete 50s or 60s theme. With the rear wheels pushed back like this, and skinnies up front, I could probably pull off a nice 60s drag race theme - but that's not my thing. Ditto for big whitewalls and narrow rears for a 50s theme - not my thing.

In any case, the smoothies are just an intermediate step. I was planning on using a set right now just to get the mismatched Cragars and factory steel wheels off the thing, so I stuck them on the rendering to see what it would look like. I definitely want forged alloy wheels. Since they're not exactly cheap, I want to have the details and specs sorted out, as much as possible, before ordering them. I may go back and try the Forgelines on this view.

[deuce_454]

my vote would be Fesler FS903 wheels
http://www.feslerbuilt.com/Vehicles/1949%20Buddy%20Rice%20Merc/Img0225.jpg

[boonedog]

I like the smoothies sorry i didnt do a very good job at making that clear.

[toddshotrods]

I like the smoothies sorry i didnt do a very good job at making that clear.
Lol, thanks. :thumbsup: I get it now (more coffee + your clarification = understanding) - you didn't think the PT wheels looked right on an antique vehicle! :D


my vote would be Fesler FS903 wheels...
I like those, but 35lbs (number from their site) seems heavy. Maybe I'll give them a call when I get closer and see what the actual specs would be for my sizes.

[toddshotrods]

Wow, I didn't realize it had been so long since I last posted an update to this thread. I stalled out for a little while, because some things about the plan just weren't making sense to me. I wanted to resolve them before moving on. Greg's "tweaks" and a few mods thread for his 32 actually helped me get my focus, and get back on track. Following his "build" and reading his comments about street rods being big karts worked like a charm, and helped me figure out what was wrong. I got rid of the lid (roof), decided to forget about meeting NHRA (or any other sanctioning body) demands, and started concentrating on making art and having fun.

New art for the new plan. The suspension fairings are to "cloak" the IFS. I'll be doing some full-scale modeling soon to see if I can pull it off. I'm planning on dual, bolt-in, vintage fueler style, upper roll cages for racing.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/064.jpg

...and a little progress. The body parts have been properly chopped up and are waiting to be "glued" back together. These parts are just functional plugs for molds and future carbon fiber replacements. The main body is channeled over the frame rails, and the belt line (upper edge) was wedge sectioned an inch. The firewall and cowl were pinched 4-1/2", and chopped seven, bringing the dash down inside the body, and allowing a subtle transition from the belt line to the dash. The track nose was sectioned 4-1/2" and the lower half narrowed 3/4". The bed was narrowed about four inches.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/143.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/144.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/145.jpg

[ErikLS2]

Man, what an interesting project, can't wait to follow this one.

Are you having a controller for all that electrical power custom made? I've done some work on hybrid vehicle systems at 280V and even with all their safe power down procedures, I still get a little nervous. Nothing to mess around with.

How hard would it be to convert that motor to a generator for the battery on braking like a hybrid?........I'd guess you'd have to tie it into the hydraulic brake system. On a hybrid the hydraulic brakes are electrically controlled.

Anyway, killer project, good luck with it!

[geberhard]

This is all kinds of bad ass, would be cool to beat a Tesla and I see plenty of them around here :D

[mrbigblock]

interesting,nice detail;)

[toddshotrods]

Man, what an interesting project, can't wait to follow this one...
Anyway, killer project, good luck with it!
This is all kinds of bad ass, would be cool to beat a Tesla and I see plenty of them around here :D
interesting,nice detail;)
Thanks guys! I can't wait to get further into the build to share some of the little details of the project.


...Are you having a controller for all that electrical power custom made? I've done some work on hybrid vehicle systems at 280V and even with all their safe power down procedures, I still get a little nervous. Nothing to mess around with...
Yeah, these voltage levels demand respect. I grew up in a carpentry/light construction family and working on 110 & 220 live was second nature, but the idea of 300-400 volts gets your attention.

There is one controller currently available, called a Zilla, that is what all the fastest EV racers are using. The best version of it will do 360-375v/2000amps, but production has been on-again/off-again. There's a company in Florida that has been toying with the idea of building a real monster of a race controller, but no firm commitments from them yet. I was actually in talks with them about having the first one on this project (their idea), but am not really sure what's going on with that. Having a custom piece built is always an option.


...How hard would it be to convert that motor to a generator for the battery on braking like a hybrid?...
My motor can actually do regen, but none of the current medium and high power controllers have this feature. It's ridiculously complicated to accomplish with the type of DC motor the racers are using, and motors like mine have to have a controller custom programmed for them. I have some tricks up my sleeve, using two separate controllers, and if that doesn't work I will eventually switch to the standard series-wound DC motor and a conventional controller. That would mean no regen. If my ideas actually worked, it would be theoretically possible for me to have regen with this separately-excited (SepEx) motor. Only time will tell...

It's really simple in principle. The motor becomes a generator when you put your foot on the brakes and, depending on how much regen you have set, size of the motor, size/rate/capacity of the battery pack, it can just add a little boost to the braking power or pull you to a halt like a parachute opened. It's all electronic, no hydraulics.


More to come... :cool:

[GregWeld]

Nice Go-Kart dude!

EEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA
:cheers: :woot:

[toddshotrods]

Nice Go-Kart dude!

EEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA
:cheers: :woot:

Thanks Greg! :thumbsup: And, thanks for helping me remember what the point of building a hot rod is. :cheers:

[PonchoJohn]

Hi Todd,
Nice to see that you made it over here. I haven't been on the EV forum in a long while... I forgot about your ride since my EV p/u -rod got scrapped. Refresh my memory- was that a Fiero front suspension?
Thanks!

[toddshotrods]

Hi Todd,
Nice to see that you made it over here. I haven't been on the EV forum in a long while... I forgot about your ride since my EV p/u -rod got scrapped. Refresh my memory- was that a Fiero front suspension?
Thanks!
Hey John!

I've actually been lurking here way before I ever heard of the DIY forums, and thought I had already started a thread here when it was still slated to be a gas-powered project. When I searched for it I couldn't find it, so I started a new one, emphasizing the electric drive plans.

Yup, that's the lowly 1st gen Pontiac Fiero front suspension. It's hard to explain why I chose it, but it will become easier to show when I get around to modifying it. Ditto for most of the design concepts that are at the heart of the project. I haven't scratched the surface of them yet. My real reason for choosing the electric motor was because it makes some of my ideas possible, like the ultra-low profile. I found out all the other good stuff it offers later. :)

[novanutcase]

Very cool....:thumbsup: gonna be keeping my eye on this one....

John

[toddshotrods]

Very cool....:thumbsup: gonna be keeping my eye on this one....

John
Wow, thanks! :D Considering the level of your build, that's a nice compliment. I will try to not disappoint...

I'm working on a new PhotoChop of the front view, based on one of the last pics I posted. I had to know whether the suspension fairings are going to work before going any further. The process to create them, and the hood, will be pretty neat. The dimensions will be roughed out in full scale, for one half, then CAD models created, then foam plugs cut, and composite lay-ups. I'm doing the first versions as moldless construction because I figure they'll probably go through a few subtle changes as the body is dialed in. Molds, at this point, would be a waste.

That rendering and more build pics coming. I want to see if you guys like the fairings.

[toddshotrods]

Looking for feedback, comments, and opinions - good or bad, I can take it. :_paranoid :lol: The easy way would be to stick a 6" dropped straight axle under the front and call it a day, but I want to see if I can make it look kind of vintage with IFS for competent autocrossing. My solution is to cover the a-rms with suspension fairings, like an old LSR or dirt track car might have had. I did this quick Photoshop rendering to see if I should pursue the idea in real life, or look for a better plan. What do you think?
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/068.jpg
The gap lines on either side of the grille are for headlight doors. They're that tall because the lights inside will likely be Woodlites.

[toddshotrods]

I did CAD models for the hood and suspension fairings, then cut them from blue board (polystyrene) foam (from Lowe's). I had already split the models into sections to eliminate undercuts, and the CAM software slices those sections to match the thickness of the material you're using (1.5" in this case). I left these models a little on the rough side because I want to finish them by hand, to fine-tune the shapes. The CAD/CAM process gives me perfect mirror images to work off, from side A to side B, with lower blood pressure. :)
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/153.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/154.jpg

Next, I have to carve out enough foam to get the fairings in place, then use canned foam to glue them to the hood and track nose, plus fill the voids. The front clip will be a one-piece lift-off deal, with an opening hood panel to display the motor.

[coolwelder62]

Very interesting project.:thumbsup: Scott

[toddshotrods]

Very interesting project.:thumbsup: Scott
Thanks Scott! :)

http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/155.jpg
One step closer. A little carving and sanding, then some 'glass lay-up, and I will have a one-piece lift-off front clip to hide the IFS.

[toddshotrods]

We were invited to bring the Inhaler (as a work in progress) to a "Green Bag Lunch" Earth Day event at Ohio State's Center for Automotive Research (CAR) facility. After a video presentation and brief talk by the director, they gave a tour of the facility. The Inhaler was just behind the World's Fastest Electric Vehicle, the Buckeye Bullet 2.5 (BB2.5) (320mph/307.666mph int'l record), and we were given the floor to present it directly after BB2.5. It was well-received, and we have an offer of support from CAR. :)
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/156.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/157.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/158.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/159.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/160.jpg

It does another Earth Day event tomorrow, a tech event called Innovate Columbus Wednesday, and a Science Fair at COSI (Center of Science and Industry) next Saturday. We also just received an email suggesting that we have it on display in the lobby at another tech event on the 5th.

I feel like the parent of a teenager. The little snot rips and runs so much I'm having a hard time finding time to get any work done on it! :lol:

[toddshotrods]

Freakin' thing spent so much time going from event to event I couldn't work on it! :D It's finally been back at the shop, without scheduled appearances looming overhead, and I am getting my gears spinning again. First, I needed to finish the CAD work for the front clip, so I can get it out of foam and into fiberglass soon. This is the grille area.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/076.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/077.jpg
These pieces are ready for CNC work. The actual nose will be cut in foam and grafted into what's already there. The trim ring will be cast in aluminum, so I am looking into having it printed instead of cut to save time. The "grille" panel will be cut in wood or resin to create a plug to pull a mold for carbon fiber lay-up. The first rendering shows the grille sitting on the surface of the nose because the foam section is modeled undersize for moldless composite lay-up over foam, and the grille and trim ring are to spec for plug construction. I hadn't created the mounting flange for the trim ring yet either. The grille assembly will be recessed into the body about .125" - about the amount it's over the surface at its highest point (in the first rendering, side view).

The hole is the intake for the forced-air system. It will have a black mesh screen with my batwing "T" logo (without text) embossed into the screen. The logo will be cut or cast in some metal, and I will probably do CAD/CNC dies to stamp the screen to fit and accept the logo.

Working on the windshield frame now. It's probably going to be pretty involved, and maybe another candidate for printing. So far, I have about a 30-degree layback, and 20-degree flare-out at the top. Should be pretty wicked. :yes:

[Streetwerkz]

Looking good Todd.
I like the nose... however (imo) your may consider reshaping the rear to match that cool new front end

[Bryce]

Awesome CAD work! What program?

[toddshotrods]

Looking good Todd.
I like the nose... however (imo) your may consider reshaping the rear to match that cool new front end
Thanks! I know people always say this, but I really have been meaning to stop by. My schedule has just been so crazy, when I have free time I'm usually vegged out in front of the laptop and TV. How's life treatin' ya? :)

When you say reshape the rear, do you mean the bed? There are some tricks up my sleeve for every area, eventually.



Awesome CAD work! What program?
Thanks Bryce! :) I use Rhino for surface modeling (what you're looking at here), and Pro/E for solid modeling. I really love surfacing, and normally just use solid for engineering tolerance precision to back up the "look" (critical mounting points and surfaces). This one was kind of a quickie, to get the front plug wrapped up, I have some neat stuff in the works for this project though. The windshield frame is getting more involved by the minute (still surface modeling in Rhino). I keep reminding myself that it has to actually be produced. :rolleyes: Thank goodness for 3D printing. :cool:

[GregWeld]

Looks great Todd!

[toddshotrods]

Looks great Todd!
Thanks Greg! :thumbsup: I think I need to buy you a beer or a steak or something, for reminding me how much fun I can have! :yes: :D Hope you're getting the bugs ironed out of Redeuce.

I have a while before I get to drive the Inhaler, but I fake it a lot. I've been working on systems and stuff and sat in it for a while the other day, thinking through everything. I used Flintstone power to move around a little, cranked the wheel hard through imaginary autocross cones, and blew spit bubbles making cool forced-air cooling sounds (think centrifugal supercharger)! :rofl:

[Streetwerkz]

No worries, we've swamped at werk with no sign of things slowing down.
Just finished up a few big projects, starting a new one that will be huge for us, have 2 coming that will be on t.v. one a feature project, not to mention our normal werk load ..... I don't sleep much these days lol

As far as the truck goes. Yeah the front is swoopy & sleek, then the back is factory... which is now boreing compared to the front. Just some respectful input :D .

Josh

[toddshotrods]

No worries, we've swamped at werk with no sign of things slowing down.
Just finished up a few big projects, starting a new one that will be huge for us, have 2 coming that will be on t.v. one a feature project, not to mention our normal werk load ..... I don't sleep much these days lol

As far as the truck goes. Yeah the front is swoopy & sleek, then the back is factory... which is now boreing compared to the front. Just some respectful input :D .

Josh
Congrats on the success in your biz! Who needs sleep? :faint:

Point taken on the back. I don't know what I'll actually do about it, if anything, but I do get what you're saying. Probably lose a lot of sleep thinking about it. Hey! Just because you can't sleep, doesn't mean you have to keep me up! :lol: Seriously though, thanks for the feedback. :thumbsup:

[john royal]

This project is insane. Wish I had cad and a cnc machine.

[toddshotrods]

This project is insane. Wish I had cad and a cnc machine.
Thanks John! :thumbsup: CAD/CNC is a lot of fun. I've worked with conventional tools most of my life, eventually found CAD, and fell in love. From my perspective, it's really just another tool in my box. When I'm working in it, I am working from the perspective of grabbing some raw materials, a bunch of tools, and the desire to see what I can create.

Seeing the machines cut this kind of stuff is fun because they actually tend to mimic a good craftsman with a bunch of hand tools. When the rear motor mount was in finishing, it was like watching someone chiseling one of those huge stone monuments. At .020 stepover rate you can barely see where any material has been removed, but if you keep staring you see the shape developing right before your eyes, out of a big chunk of metal. Then, for me, I am seeing the machine mimic what I was doing on screen to create the model. Fascinating stuff! :yes:

[toddshotrods]

More CAD in the works. I started out doing a more traditionally styled '30 Ford inspired windshield, but it didn't look right when I mocked it up on the vehicle. I decided to trade practicality for creativity and came up with this assymetrical, double hump, design. I still have to blend the stanchions and main rail together, but it's coming along. The stanchions are going to be 3D prints, then cast in aluminum. I want to whittle (CNC) the main rail from billet.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/078.jpg

We've set a tentative goal to try to have it ready to do some racing next year. I really wanted to have it at Goodguys next month (in my own or someone else's vendor space), but the stars don't seem to be lining up for that, so far.

[toddshotrods]

A couple blurry cell phone pics of the Inhaler's current state. I can't remember whether I mentioned it here, so I'll touch on it briefly. We're in the process of shooting a documentary about this project, which has delayed work as we tried to get a basic understanding of where we're going with the video, and then coordinate things to allow for capturing the process. The guy that's heading the documentary has shot for media giants like The History Channel, and has shot for at least one episode of My Classic Car. I saw about fifteen seconds of the promotional short when he first started editing, and it was pretty sweet.

In these pics, we have cut the new track nose (CAD pics back a page or three) and grafted it into the front clip. Hoping to do the lay-up on this clip soon. We have lots of sanding and shaping left to do to get to that though.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/173.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/174.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/175.jpg

[toddshotrods]

We got a little feature in an online alternative fuels publication. (http://gas2.org/2011/08/10/project-car-spotlight-the-%e2%80%9cinhaler%e2%80%9d-1923-ford-model-t-ev-200-mph-hot-rod/) :)

Also getting started on the most ridiculous steering wheel ever. Here I laid out the first cuts on the Curly Maple burl wood block that will become the rim. When I finally get the CAD models finished, we will also start whittling about 75lbs of 6061 billet down to a 5lb center section. :unibrow:
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/179.jpg

[toddshotrods]

http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/art/088.jpg
Blazing new trails is exhaustive, but highly rewardling. I've been lost in design issues for months now, and the need was exacerbated by the availability of the motor controller, and some new motors, that my plans were hinged on. It was a risky bet that these parts would eventually be produced, but it's a dream that coming true. The 1+MW (1600hp capable) controller is in prototyping right now, and a new motor that can (hopefully) stand up to it is also in development. I had to up my game to match. I already had plans for everything that's pictured here, I just had to revise some of it a bit.

The wheelbase is going out to 108" soon, and it will have two motors just about dead-center in the chassis, with power going in both directions (AWD). I'm probably going to use C5/6 susepnsion up front, with triangulated four-link rear. Realistically, it will be capable of over 1000hp, though the weight will increase quite a bit from 1200lbs, to something closer to 2000lbs. It will still have the 2:1 weight-to-power ratio, actually better. The thing I like most is that, at rest, there will be no clue that this type of power is under the skin! :D In fact, it won't even look like there's enough there to make it a functioning vehicle! That was one of my prime goals, from the beginning. :cool:

[senor_Camaro]

this has to be the sweetest build on here, GO GREEN POWER!!!! lol

[toddshotrods]

this has to be the sweetest build on here, GO GREEN POWER!!!! lol
Thanks senor. :thumbsup: Considering the level of builds that happen on this site :hail: , that's mighty big shoes for my ratty little rod but we're trying to do something special with it. Green might also be a bit of a misnomer, considering I plan to waste enough power to light up a neighborhood, having fun! :lol:

[senor_Camaro]

seriously its different, thats whats so cool. I had to show all my buddies at work, everyone was like wtf, its never been done before which makes it awesome. consider me subscribed!!!!

[toddshotrods]

seriously its different, thats whats so cool. I had to show all my buddies at work, everyone was like wtf, its never been done before which makes it awesome. consider me subscribed!!!!

Well thanks, I really appreciate the support. :thumbsup: :) Things tend to move kind of slow most of the time because there is so much to figure out, but once we're over the main design hurdles the pace should pick up.

[wellis77]

Glad to see you're still working away on this. Looking forward to seeing it come together. Very cool build. What is the track width your running with the 108" wheelbase?

[toddshotrods]

Glad to see you're still working away on this. Looking forward to seeing it come together. Very cool build. What is the track width your running with the 108" wheelbase?

Thanks wellis. :) There's no turning back now, I have to get something in return for the time I have invested in it. :unibrow:

In front, right now, hub-to-hub I have about 61", and about 66-67" sidewall to sidewall (outsides).

In back, right now, hub-to-hub it's at about 59", and about 76-ish inches sidewall-to-sidewall. That will increase to 78-80" with 345 section-width tires and new rims.

Everything has to go in software to find the best compromise before the real pick-up points are welded in. It's all just mock-up now to get the component locations and body sorted out. It's really challenging to hide all this stuff under Model T skin.

[toddshotrods]

Wow, I can't beleve it has been this long since I posted, and since we actually worked on this one! We did a mock-up stretch last night just to get the rear wheels in he right place. There's going to be a complete redo of the rear suspension geometry (still trangulated four-link, I think), but we can now start mounting the motor and making it actually run. First, we'll stretch the bed to fill the gap. This gives it more conventional pickup truck proportions, and us the (108") wheelbase to really push the (performance) envelope.

In a week or so, all the bodywork will be recreated in carbon fiber. More to come...
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/194.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/195.jpg

[toddshotrods]

Longer and meaner...
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/201.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/202.jpg

With a new carbon fiber body shell (rough draft created right over the old fiberglass body, as we'll be cutting, splicing, and modifying it).
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/207.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/208.jpg

We've started surfaicng work on the front clip's foam plug, to get it in carbon fiber soon.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/210.jpg

Two little 23 Ford-based hot rods beginning to take shape...
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/211.jpg

[toddshotrods]

It's coming along.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/212.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/213.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/215.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/214.jpg

[toddshotrods]

So, I am closing my studio/moving my stuff out of the community workshop this weekend. Everything is going in storage for a bit, while I try to figure out "what next". I have been trying to decide what I really want to keep, to reduce the size of the storage unit, and avoid having one full of a bunch of crap I don't want. I decided that Schism was more than I want to do and got rid of it. That left me with two electric motorcycle projects and my tools, nice and tidy.

Long-story-short, the Inhaler became the property of the community workshop in our deal to (unsuccessfully) try to found a non-profit with it as the centerpiece. Monday, Alex tells me that he's handing it back to me - it's mine again...

I had to make some really fast decisions about what to do with it. I decided to keep it and return to something closer to the original plan - small, basic, raw, fun. All the crazy bodywork, and the stretched wheelbase, were to suit our non-profit goals. I pulled the crazy front clip, and the bed, shortened the wheelbase back to 90", and am going to mount the massive 13" motor up front, uncovered, with a conventional driveshaft to the rear axle. It rolls and steers already, so when I get the motor mounted and a driveshaft strung, I will be working on making it run. It will need springs and shocks, but that's a minor issue, needing only light fabrication to implement.

I call the theme I am shooting for "TechnoRat". Sort of Modified style, with just the body tub and a grille shell for bodywork, purposely not perfect - a little rat rod-ish to keep things simple, and blatantly using and displaying modern technology and components on an old hot rod. The key is that motor. It is an absolute torque monster, with every drop of it being available from 0 rpm - now! :unibrow:
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/272.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/273.jpg

[WSSix]

Good luck, Todd.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

just found this project. this is awesome stuff Todd. I've been wanting to do an EV for so long.

[toddshotrods]

Good luck, Todd.

just found this project. this is awesome stuff Todd. I've been wanting to do an EV for so long.

Thanks guys! :thumbsup: EVs are a blast. It took me a while to adjust, now I'm hooked...

Somehow, I got unsubscribed from my own thread. I didn't even know anyone had replied to it. I came today to post some updates, and saw kudos! :cheers:

This isn't the real mid plate - just a temporary way to get the motor bolted in the car so I can roll it in my storage unit. When I get settled, I will cut a real mid plate from 0.750 or 1.000" 6061 plate. That thick because of the torque characteristics of the motor. Sorry about the rust. I need to get everything blasted, then buy some Rad Rides stuff.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/274.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/275.jpg


I pushed the body back quite a bit to get the motor out in full view, and gained the fringe benefit of a better profile; with more classic hot rod proportions.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/276.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/277.jpg


I was pretty exhausted by the time I got the motor in and staggered back to my office and computer. I used a bunch of leftover CAD stuff I had modeled for other projects to create a 1913 style grille for it.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/278.jpg


Then, cut it in MDF today. This is the plug for mold-less carbon fiber construction. When the carbon has fully cured, I'll removed the MDF plug.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/279.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/280.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/281.jpg

I wasn't thinking when I modeled it and left the edges of my Bat-T logo razor sharp in the model. That machine isn't accurate enough to not destroy that edge. I can rebuild it easily though, so no real harm done...


More to come... I have Goodguys Columbus in my head. I probably wouldn't have much battery, but I would be thrilled just to drive it into the show.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I like it rough. Gives it the logo that patina rustic look.

Whats that motor weigh again?

[toddshotrods]

I like it rough. Gives it the logo that patina rustic look...
Thanks. I see what you're saying. Maybe I'll explore keeping/capturing that as a feature. I kind of like the challenge. :evil:

It goes with the patina'd carbon look I have in mind for the rest of the car. Kind of like an old carbon fiber race car that's been sitting in a field breaking down in the elements - I guess over hundreds of years! :lol: Rather than the, oceans-deep, layers of gelcoat normally found over exposed carbon, you'll be able to feel the texture of the cloth, and there will be places where it's apparently broken, or deteriorated (thousands of years?), etc.




...Whats that motor weigh again?
350lbs. This one is a GE: 13.5" diameter, 23" long case. The most popular commercially available, 13", DC, EV motor is the Warp 13 (http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html#WarP_7), at 13.25 x 20.4" (http://www.go-ev.com/PDFs/003_21_00-08413_WarP_13_Eng_Drawing.pdf); so this is a beast of an electric motor. My motor came from a 10,000lb capacity (lift and carry) forklift.

Can't wait to feel it pull a 1200lb go-kart. :slingshot:

[toddshotrods]

...This isn't the real mid plate...
But this will be... :yes:
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/289.jpg
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/290.jpg

[mrgm]

I do like where this is going

[toddshotrods]

I do like where this is going

Thanks mrgm!

[toddshotrods]

The steel frame mounts: 1" thick plate steel with a little CNC work, and sheet metal steel hemisphere caps TIG'd on. The plates end up being 0.500" minimum thickness, with 1" thick, drilled and tapped, bosses for the four 0.750" mounting bolts. The sheet metal caps, of course, finish the aesthetic; eliminate the need to do a blind, tapped, hole; and save a few precious ounces of weight. After some hand finishing work they should look like cast steel brackets.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/291.jpg


My goal was to emphasize the mechanical connection of the big 13 to the chassis. Those steel domes should help pull people's attention down to the area, then the various gaps and radii will offer lots of light-play to bring out the details.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/292.jpg

[toddshotrods]

Here's the driveshaft tunnel I mentioned. The point is to emphasize function; to show what's happening inside it, and to highlight the fact that the motor is directly driving the rear end - no gears needed. I will probably revisit the section where it switches from tube to tunnel, and give it a rolled, gradual, transition. The front, tube and boot, sections will both be two-piece parts, with hidden lower panels, to allow slipping them over the u-joint and shaft.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/inhaler/forums/buildpics/293.jpg

[mrgm]

what rear will you be running, and what ratio?

[toddshotrods]

what rear will you be running, and what ratio?
I am still looking and researching that. I want to keep the (GM G-body) triangulated four-link, so I've been looking at all the housings made for it. My favorite bolt-in right now is the Moser M9. Inside it (current thinking): WaveTrac, 35 spline axles, 3:1 ratio.


The (numerically) lower ratio with a series-wound DC motor creates a bigger load for the motor to overcome, and allows it to draw more current, which creates more torque - until something finally cries "uncle" and gives. These motors can handle 2000-3000 amps of current.