Put up or shut up..... bench racers! [Archive]

Mikamaro

12-13-2005, 08:22 AM

New to the hobby (2 years) and about 75% of the way through my project. I've been reading these forums, started w/ PT.com, for about 3 so thanks for getting me into this great hobby.

As of late, I've noticed there's a lot of b.s. about how this suspensions kicks a** and this one sucks.... unless you're just a street guy blah blah blah. Oh those brakes are ok, if.... etc. I'm interested in who here has really had an opportunity to drive a well tuned version of more than 1 or 2 setups? Seems most buy a car, the suspension is old and worn, buy the new greatest things and their car is the best (as long as everyone on the forum agrees). I bought into this at first, but more I've learned, a lot of it is starting to seem like bench racing to me. Like my girlfriends little ricer brother and his friends. Don't get me wrong, a lot of people here have a wealth of true knowledge, and I appreciate the technical insights I find here that lead me to research different ideas. I just think that because of the expense of this hobby and the limited experiance resulting from not having 20 cars, comparing one setup to another is b.s. unless you have experiance, not just theory to base it on.

So point being, when is the lateral-g, pro-touring group showdown gonna happen? There's a whole lot of you guys fairly close together on the west coast, why don't you guys get together and really see what's what, go out and flog 'em, race 'em, trade 'em for a lap or 2. Sort of like that RSE, Chris Kerr's car was sweet, and my inspiration.... wasn't intentional that my ebay bought car is the same color. Point is he brought it out and exposed his setup, ran it to show what it could do; didn't sit on the net and explain why it was better, or why the other guys is worse.

I know you guys don't rudely bash, however you know when somebody says "no offense but...." it's still an insult.

When/where's the next RSE style get together for the lateral-g crew? When are you guys gonna put some proof behind these millions of posts?

Smack_talker

12-13-2005, 08:29 AM

ok..this has been talked about PLENTY. I think Scott could probably appoint someone to head this up and have it happen sometime next year. I know the V8TV guys were looking for something similar to cover..Just please dont mention the "P" word. :wow:

hotwheels

12-13-2005, 08:41 AM

I will line em up..........just let me know when!!!! I have several friend's willing to participate too. I wouldn't put it on scott, just through up a date and if it is within traveling distance, i will put up..

Don't really think lateral-g is based on racing, it is more based to building and style, but there are a few of us that will build and hopefuly get some style, yet race em.

I may talk gibberish, but i don't talk ****, so let's get it on. :rofl:

XcYZ

12-13-2005, 08:46 AM

When/where's the next RSE style get together for the lateral-g crew?

I had the Regional Executive of Land O' Lakes Region of the SCCA contact me in regards to putting on an event at BIR (Brainerd). You're more than welcome to come and participate. :)

And you're right about bench racing. That's what online car communities are all about - a resource for enthusiasts.

EDIT: I forgot to add that there are two RSE winning cars featured here on the site. :thumbsup:

907rs

12-13-2005, 09:04 AM

Welcome. :)

Derek69SS

12-13-2005, 10:53 AM

I had the Regional Executive of Land O' Lakes Region of the SCCA contact me in regards to putting on an event at BIR (Brainerd).
:wow: :faint: WHEN??? :willy: :unibrow:

Ummgawa

12-13-2005, 10:59 AM

Welcome Mikamaro to the best site on the net. Thanks for your post. By the number of your posts, you are the "New Guy". You have a great idea and obviously, you have a car with a terriffic set up you wish to exploit. So do I. its in a box waiting for me to set it up. Note I said "BOX" singular as to extascentually (sp) mean boxes. I just mean my garage as a box, if you will. Why is my project not done...hmmm...I have one son in College and one daughter is a senior about to go to College. Oh and there is that wife thing and my 11 year old. I work 60 hours a week and sometimes, I just lift the garage door, breathe in and out 4 or 5 times, and let the door back down. I have more people pulling on me that I care to share. Now you want to pull too. I have great advice for you. Take initative. You obviously have internet access and can type. Take this opportunity and use your youthful energy and make calls and set this thing up. I think you have a great idea. make it happen. I will bring my set up unpainted and as rough as a night in jail. Give me some lead time though, as I am like the Russians used to be, I don't take a dump with having a meeting first, so I will need time to plan. God knows folks might starve if I am gone for more than a week. But I strongly suggest you take time and plan this thing and I'll show up.

Oh and Welcome to the site. :thumbsup:

Stuart Adams

12-13-2005, 11:38 AM

Mikamaro,

I'm with Jim ( hey bro ), set it up and have fun.

One post, pretty brash start dude.

With a post like that don't count on the "showdown" soon, to satisfy you.

I don't think most here would want to "trade em for a few" and go thrashing. I have more class than to ask "can I borrow the MULE, I want to go beat the piss out of it, be right back".

Mikamaro

12-13-2005, 11:43 AM

I do think this site is great, I play the alumin8r video at least once a week :drool: and I know people here can build great cars. I really would like to know if people have personally driven more than one style of suspension / subframe kit that has been setup well and what their opinions are, hopefully with some #'s to back it up.

There are some magazine guys on this site, can we hit on some of these frame/subframe guys to set up their own cars and bring to a showdown / testdrive? Wayne Due vs. Detroit Speed vs. Art Morrison vs. 21st vs. Martz vs. Alston Chassiworks( front and new wierd rearsetup everyone disses) vs. CARS vs. Air Ride Specialties vs. Hot rods from Hell(truck arm rear?)..... maybe at Hot Rod Power Tour, I would even pay to drive each of these cars, 1-2 laps w/ them driving and 2-3 laps yourself. 9 cars ~$450, sounds great!

Ummgawa - I do not have a terrific setup but I do like to thrash it and I do feel your pain buddy, my project may be 75% done, but it's also probably at least a year+ from being finished. I work overseas 320-330 days a year, 7 days/12 hours + so I get approx 2 weeks over xmas to take my car apart, a lucky day or two here and there in the spring, and then 4 weeks in the summer. This means I put my mess back together for 2 weeks and try break it the last 2 :yes: . No kids or wife as of yet, so when I am home, it's full time in the garage.

Huxsol81

12-13-2005, 11:45 AM

Mikamaro,

One post, pretty brash start dude.

Well stated Stuart, to call out the entire Lateral-g/PT membership with your first post may not get the response that you desire. But after all is said and done an event like the one your proposing is an excellent way to get those hardcore guys to lay down the law. Oh yeah and welcome to the site!

Mikamaro

12-13-2005, 11:59 AM

Yeah I know it was a little brash, more than a little. I have honest interest on personal experiance with different setups from people who have driven more than one style. Being new to the forum, didn't want to get a one post reply telling me to read the forum.... I have, and the PT forum, for 3 years now (lurker). So I've been somewhat succesful in my goal so far, there's interest popping up so far...
-Mike

TravisB

12-13-2005, 11:59 AM

I am I the only one that is kinda rubbed the wrong way by this thread........

Not everyone hear wants to run the Sh*t out of there car, My car is not even done yet andI can promise you I will not run the hell out of it at the track....yes yes I know I not a pro-tourer but I don't care.

To come on here with your first post and call everyone out is a little bold IMO

*edit*

we posted at the same time

XcYZ

12-13-2005, 12:03 PM

There are some magazine guys on this site, can we hit on some of these frame/subframe guys to set up their own cars and bring to a showdown / testdrive? Wayne Due vs. Detroit Speed vs. Art Morrison vs. 21st vs. Martz vs. Alston Chassiworks( front and new wierd rearsetup everyone disses) vs. CARS vs. Air Ride Specialties vs. Hot rods from Hell(truck arm rear?).....

That's definitely been talked about here and several manufacturers are game. I think it could happen someday, but there's SO many variables, I don't know how you'd pronounce one as the overall winner. However, it has to be one of the most talked about subjects around. How do we quantify between what works and what works best.

Maybe if we could get an Ride and Handling engineer to shake down each car... :D

Derek, I'm not blind (yet), you can tone down the font. :rolleyes: The BIR event that has been talked about is during Fun Ford Weekend. I've also have some info about a possible track event at IRP. It's only a matter of time before we get something lined up. :thumbsup:

zbugger

12-13-2005, 12:07 PM

Mikamaro, where are you located? Some of us have gone to the track, and if you want to come by, we can show you how it works. I've driven a few modified cars, and helped build a few too, and I only speak from experience. Many of the guys here do as well. Thing is, if you drive the car on the street, you'll BARELY notice the differences. Here's a story. In my Camaro club, a fellow member complained of spending $60+ on brake pads for his sons car. He told me that they were supposed to be a high performance brake pad, but that he felt no difference driving it around town. Well, you won't. Most performance pads you won't be able to tell the difference. Bash on the car a bit, and heat the brakes up, and you'll notice where the difference comes in.

Now, yes, there are a lot of "passing on what I've heard" guys around, but at least half of the time that information comes from someone who knows. I've done a lot of research on parts for my car, and I've asked people what differences they've felt. That is something that helps me make a decision on what I get for my car. In fact, I've built a friends Honda and told him exactly what he could expect. He was shocked when it actually happened. So, not all bench racing is BS. You have to know who to talk to, learn who really does know what they are doing, and then make a decision. Most of the guys here, except for a couple guys I won't mention, know what they are doing. Get a basic idea from what you read here, but doing it yourself is what gives you experience. Here, we will mainly talk about what we have experienced.

Derek69SS

12-13-2005, 12:29 PM

Derek, I'm not blind (yet), you can tone down the font.Sorry Scott - got a little excited, and dang near peed myself :_paranoid :lol:

Wayne Due vs. Detroit Speed vs. Art Morrison vs. 21st vs. Martz vs. Alston Chassiworks( front and new wierd rearsetup everyone disses) vs. CARS vs. Air Ride Specialties vs. Hot rods from Hell(truck arm rear?).The problem is, unless all the cars have equal engines, transmissions, tires, brakes, drivers, weight, etc. this test won't really "prove" anything.

This would be fun to run against each-other's cars, but if one person's car beats mine on the track, does that make its setup "better"? Not to me, if he's got 5x as much money in his, or needed to hack his car up to install it, and mine does almost as good as a budget bolt-on setup, or if it makes that guy's car uncomfortable, or impractical to drive long distances.

"What works" all depends on your budget, and what you're willing to sacrifice for the performance. Asking on here is one of the best ways to find the info, since there are many members with experience, who are not trying to sell a product that can give you mostly unbiased information.

XcYZ

12-13-2005, 12:42 PM

Sorry Scott - got a little excited, and dang near peed myself :_paranoid :lol:

:lol:

Derek is right, you also have to take in account the cost vs. performance aspect. There's just no clear cut answer. It comes down to personal goals, vision, and budget.

Stuart Adams

12-13-2005, 12:59 PM

Dezduster

12-13-2005, 01:45 PM

We all benefit from the MANUFACTURES beating the snot out of their products, then independent people test them, and we get results = buying the products that we like as a result of their testing and our likes.

Why do all the dirty work when the experienced time proven stuff works and we can still have a life. There are people here that their job is testing stuff, that is how much energy goes into products/performance.

My point is why go beat the snot out of your car, try new parts, thrash it again and again, just to find out what works, when the BIG DOGS have done the work for you.

Its funny how when we start building a car you see your self carving corners, burning rubber and generaly running amuck. Then the reality hits you after the build its too nice too expensive to thrash on. Which sucks in a way. It seems the best cars for this are newer ones that you arnt emotionaly conected to. It also seems the older you get the stronger the take care of it syndrome is. Thats just my buck and 2 cents worth.

MaxHarvard

12-13-2005, 02:08 PM

maybe i didnt understand you post but... i'll try and answer it.

First of all, i never claim anything about my car unless i know something for a fact. For example, i would never claim to have X amount of HP if i didnt know for sure. Secondly, i'm not sure how closely you've looked over this site, but people here are probably the most honest and straight forward you'll ever meet. If they dont know something, they will point you in the right direction to someone who does. If they do know, they will take the time to explain it to you, even if you ask 10 times. I havent seen anyone here make any comments pertaining to "bench racing" as you call it. Guys here know better than to try and do that stuff here, why? because the entire board is full of knowledgable car guys that can spot BS from a mile away.

I think you talked about people making claims about knowledge or certain products they dont have any first hand experience with... that is not "bench racing"... thats sharing opinions or experiences with others about a product or how to do something. it isnt bragging or trying to be the dominant robin in the group puffing out its chest trying to impress the girl birds. Its passing on information that is useful.

I may have read your post wrong, but thats the impression that i got.

Ummgawa

12-13-2005, 02:09 PM

Stuart Adams

12-13-2005, 02:19 PM

Mikamaro, welcome to the site.

We all love the pro touring cars , what we are not is a bunch of ego maniacs boasting about them. Its the friendships that we boast about, the cars just keep us out of the bars!! Unless we are in Vegas.

And Big Jim is REALLY FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!

Musclerodz

12-13-2005, 03:32 PM

I read this thread earlier today and decided to wait till now when I could make a rational post. If you have read, read and reread the forum, you should know that this site is not a bunch of high and mighty "bench racers". There is many experienced, high class people with high class cars on this site and each one is willing to help. However, when you call us out on your first post, it is not a good idea. If you want to play that game, I suggest you try Corner-carvers.com. :thumbsup: Some of the best suspension tech on the net. As you can tell from the responses in this thread, you are welcome here.

Mike

Bill Howell

12-13-2005, 03:52 PM

How is this shot, taken today? Even though I know I am a Poser, I will light em up!

Smack_talker

12-13-2005, 04:11 PM

How is this shot, taken today? Even though I know I am a Poser, I will light em up!

I told you guys not to use the "P" word :willy:

lil427z

12-13-2005, 04:42 PM

wilcome .
bill looks smoke out of your tail pips lol. :)
lets all go an have fun . :captain: :rofl: :wow:
rick kirkindall :thumbsup:

Autokraft

12-13-2005, 05:36 PM

How is this shot, taken today? Even though I know I am a Poser, I will light em up!

Hey Bill,

That Goat can really peel out! :thumbsup:

Sure wish I could burn some rubber but it's kinda hard with snow up here. Forecast for tonite is 4-8inches. When is spring going to get here??

Kurt

www.autokraft.org

Bill Howell

12-13-2005, 05:40 PM

bill looks smoke out of your tail pips
So thats what that was. Dang it, I must really be a "P"
That must have been oil I wiped off the quarters too, but it did look like rubber......lol

Stuart Adams

12-13-2005, 05:46 PM

Nice shot Bill.

Kurt, put some chains on....

Autokraft

12-13-2005, 06:00 PM

Nice shot Bill.

Kurt, put some chains on....

Hey great idea Stuart, I think I'll head out to the shop and give it a try :D

montec_ss85

12-13-2005, 06:22 PM

Ok, find an open track day or autocross, post it and see how many members show up. Although you may only get members in your area. At least someone should show to flog their car. I mean run it, or at least take it out on the track to see how it performs.

lil427z

12-13-2005, 06:58 PM

bill looks good , keep up the good work . :thumbsup:
rick kirkindall

67Sally

12-13-2005, 06:58 PM

How is this shot, taken today? Even though I know I am a Poser, I will light em up!

It is amazing how long it takes to work all that smoke out of the tires. Keep on working at it Bill.
W.

V8TV

12-13-2005, 07:27 PM

We've been wanting to shoot something like what is being discussed here for a long time. Not so much to show a winner and loser, but to profile what some of these cars are capable of when properly set up, and also to provide some tips to the ones that are having some troubles.

It reminds me of the Pro Street shootout Car Craft did back in the early '90's... when Pro Street was becoming Pro Trailer... they ran some of the high-profile cars of the day and were completely let down. It turned out that all the thourough-the-hood blowers and tubbed chassis cars didn't run very well after all.

We'll have to knock our heads together to come up with a couple events where we can get a track and do it up without breaking the bank. Maybe a long weekend sometime so people could participate from different parts of the country.

Derek69SS

12-14-2005, 07:02 AM

V8TV, what would be cool if you do a show on something like this, would be to include a new car as a bench-mark to compare them to, like a new Porsche or some other sports-car that people tend to think way too highly of. People seem to think only the Europeans know how to make a car handle, so if you used a 'vette, the euro-car guys would all rip on it for getting beat by "old, heavy, tanks"... do the same tests with a Porsche, and suddenly it's amazing how great the old cars handle, rather than how poorly the new one does...

Something set up like CC's RSE, but without the "show" part of it... also include cost to build, and gas-mileage, and several muscle-cars ranging from a $10,000 build to a $100,000 build.

JohnM69SS

12-14-2005, 08:05 AM

And hey.. If you want a bone stock restored 69 SS 350 to set some factory base numbers, I won't be afraid to stretch out my 14X7 bias plies....... :lol:

Rybar

12-14-2005, 10:59 AM

How is this shot, taken today? Even though I know I am a Poser, I will light em up!

Bill those pics are sweet! That's my way of testing a setup.

I think the reason why he call us bench racers is becuase most of us on this site are in the PROJECT stages of our builds. How can we test anything if we are building it over time?

Anyways, I promise you I will "test" my Camaro when it's done in the best of ways. And I'll post pics and videos to prove it.

vanzuuk1

12-14-2005, 05:56 PM

I am counting the minutes until autocross season, I plan to beat the pee pee out of my car.

Any jersey/ny/ct. guys want to join me, let me know.

I have video of my car being thrashed with the stock suspension, cant wait to drive the dse version.

I also plan to try pocono once i get the harnesses.

V8TV

12-14-2005, 06:14 PM

OK... I can get us an M3, an NSX, a CTS-V, a DTS-V, (bad ass car, by the way...) and a LS7 Z06, and maybe an E55 and a CL65.

Do these sound like good benchmarks? The Lateral-G cars really have to run (and turn and stop!) to hang with these cars, but I'd love to shoot it!

- KO

evilzee28

12-18-2005, 12:35 PM

It seems to have gone all quiet here, does this mean that you don't wanna see what your cars compare like to these modern hi po machines?? :unibrow:

evilzee28

12-18-2005, 12:43 PM

It is amazing how long it takes to work all that smoke out of the tires. Keep on working at it Bill.
W.
Don't mean to put a dampner on things here, but laying a little rubber isn't what P/T is all about surely?? Any of the hot euro 4 bangers can easily lay more smoke than that :unibrow: . I thought it was about handling & performance, you know, take an old body style & hop it up with supercar performance. I noticed that the last thread about testing the cars on a track amounted to nothing. C'mon guys, show the world how well they can perform....or don't they ???? Mmmmm..... :rolleyes:

XcYZ

12-18-2005, 01:39 PM

Well Nigel, if my car was done then I'd have something to add. Kinda hard to compete with just a garage full parts. :rolleyes: lol

race-rodz

12-18-2005, 01:50 PM

Well Nigel, if my car was done then I'd have something to add. Kinda hard to compete with just a garage full parts. :rolleyes: lol

+1....... but im workin on it

Steve Chryssos

12-18-2005, 02:39 PM

It seems to have gone all quiet here, does this mean that you don't wanna see what your cars compare like to these modern hi po machines??

What? This? This is just a thread on a message board initiated by someone who readily admits that his own car is not yet complete. It hardly qualifies as "throwing down the gauntlet".

What bugs me is that people assume that if it ain't published on a message board or printed in a magazine, then it's not happening. Most of the guys I know who are tracking their cars will not wear out their keyboards to flaunt the event(s). In the past, when they do post results, the bench racers flood in and criticize the effort in true armchair quarterback fashion.

You would be astonished at the number of message board members who are getting seat time. I can rattle off at least a dozen names without giving it any thought. And after typing this I will curl up with the latest issue of Car Craft. It reminds me that the last three winners of Real Street Eliminator have all been well known pro-touring enthusiasts.

Stuart Adams

12-18-2005, 03:11 PM

How come every time a post is started like this one , the person starting the post has no car.

Good post Steve, enough said.

hotwheels

12-18-2005, 04:45 PM

What? he don't even have a car? You have to be kiddin me.....I thought for sure with the way he posted, he had something worth lining up against.....I just don't get people....... :lol:

Steve Chryssos

12-18-2005, 05:38 PM

Congratulations to Pete Mungo for winning Real Street Eliminator XV. Another pro-touring member Fscope came in fourth with his 68 Camaro convertible.

Pete Mungo's AMX performed as follows:
10.644/132.21 in the quarter and stopped from 60-0mph in 101.2 feet.
Frank Scopeliiti bested the following numbers.
12.56/111.74 ET/mph and 135.6 60-0 stopping distance.

The autocross was rained out, but the results would have been meaningless since every autocross course is different. So there are hard numbers. If your car can perform as well as Pete Mungo's AMX, you are in the top 5% of the pro-touring community. Plus, you can probably spank even the most exotic of supercars. Crikey!! The rest of us can hope for and expect performance that is analagous to Frank Scopelitti's Camaro and his Global West tubular A-arms. FScope's Camaro performs on par with an $80K Porsche Carrera S (results found at car and driver dot com). Congratulations to Frank and the rest of us on our Poor-sches

There. Problem solved.

Blown353

12-18-2005, 07:10 PM

That AMX is 110% badass. I love all the adaptation of factory stuff-- Vette FX3 electronic shocks, traction control & ABS, and the use of heat riser butterflies to run "choked off" 2" exhaust when he wants to be quiet. And it all works well together. Good man.

And hot damn... it almost made 60-0 in the double digits. :hail:

Any idea what the weight is on that sucker? I bet it's under 3000lbs.

Troy

907rs

12-18-2005, 07:21 PM

Blown353

12-18-2005, 09:32 PM

The mailman hasn't delivered my CC yet, so I'll have to wait to read it. Is this the gold car that was featured a few years ago?

Yes, it's the Gold '69 AMX that was featured back in 1999. Aluminum 18 degree SBC, Richmond 6-speed, adapted Vette front brakes and Impala SS rears, Vette FX3 electronic shocks, ABS, and traction control, and he pieced together the suspension on his own. Very cool car.

evilzee28

12-19-2005, 01:34 AM

What? This? This is just a thread on a message board initiated by someone who readily admits that his own car is not yet complete. It hardly qualifies as "throwing down the gauntlet".

What bugs me is that people assume that if it ain't published on a message board or printed in a magazine, then it's not happening. Most of the guys I know who are tracking their cars will not wear out their keyboards to flaunt the event(s). In the past, when they do post results, the bench racers flood in and criticize the effort in true armchair quarterback fashion.

You would be astonished at the number of message board members who are getting seat time. I can rattle off at least a dozen names without giving it any thought. And after typing this I will curl up with the latest issue of Car Craft. It reminds me that the last three winners of Real Street Eliminator have all been well known pro-touring enthusiasts.

No! you've missed the point. Going back a while everyone was banging on about how cool it'd be to have as many PT cars get together as possible for a track day. SW said he could arrange circuit time & the next thing you know, the thread dies the death. Then a guy comes on here, with a legitimate observation, & the fact that it's his first post gets cruciified for " calling you out " for a race. V8tv have upped the ante by saying they'll supply media coverage (which incidentally you were all trying to decide how to arrange this with the previous post). V8tv also said they could arrange some cars to compare with the PT cars. That was 4 days ago!! the thread just stopped on the 15th. It seems as if as soon as the bluff is called, everyone drops the idea like a hot stone.

The guy doesen't have to have a comleted car to ask why you don't put track time on them does he?? He is saying, what an awful lot of people are thinking ,.....that is, you guys spend a lot of money adding go faster parts, suspension & brakes to your cars & yet none of those parts have been quantified as to how good they really are. The cars are going the same route as Pro Street, made to look like they could haul ass, but really cant be driven hard for fear of breaking it or marking the paint.Take Johnsons 'Cuda as an example,....lovely looking car, well prepared, nice interior & paint, BUT, it couldn't be driven hard or regularly, as the front suspension & big dia wheels won't allow the car to turn properly. As was stated on this forum, they had trouble moving & turning it, it has no turning circle. In that instance they just become bling jewellery, something nice to look at & yet here everyone is creaming themselves over its engineering!!! it can't turn a circle !!!!. Now if you feel offended by what I've written, I'm sorry, but this is how the movement is viewed from outside your bubble.

Ok, you may not want to race your car, fair enough, so why do you need 800 horsepower?? why do you need bigger brakes?? why do you need better suspension?? you'll never get your car to its limits on the street anyway! If you did decide to race it, you'd find that the Baer brakes et al, you've fitted aren't up to scratch anyways, 'cos inside one lap you'll have fried the road compound pads (as has been mentioned before by those that have tried) racing is TOTALLY different to hard street driving.
Most PT cars are just show queens, sorry, but that's how it's viewed, just as you've scoffed at Pro Street for being trailer queens, the MAJORITY of PT cars are going the same way. The guy that posted this on here was an observer for quite some time, he DOES have a car that he's putting together,
the fact that it isn't on the road, doesn't mean he's not entitled to his views. The fact that a few of you got upset by his posting, to me, seems as if it's a case of "if the shoe fits......"

Incidentally, as Steve says, ....how many board readers here actually have raced their car hard around a circuit?? I don't mean ***** footing it around for a lap ot two, just to say you've been on track,I mean using their car hard??

Incidentally, the AMx's stopping distances aren't that great really considering its set up. My fully street legal, historic race prepped '72 T/Am, using race pads, standard dia front discs, race rear shoes & standard drums would stop from 60-0 in 99.3 feet. My friends similarly equipped '69 Mustang race car does it even better, in 98.75 feet. Oh & they are quicker than Evo8's, Imprezas, Ultimas & TVR's around Silverstone race circuit. :yes:

Steve Chryssos

12-19-2005, 05:25 AM

No. I'm being realistic. It is rude to come into someone else's house and suggest that they spend their money to throw a party. It just doesn't work that way. An event happens when ONE individual steps up to promote the event. That will require fronting the cash to rent a track, rent some equipment, provide concessions and organize the entire affair. Event promotion is complex and costly. When all is said and done, that promoter will assume risk based on turnout. Turnout is dependent on outside variable such as weather.
So the question is not "Why don't you guys organize an event?" The question is: "Who will accept the risk and responsibility to host the event?" Shall we insist that some of our well-to-do members step forward? No. They have to offer. We cannot demand it of them. That's just common courtesy.

Furthermore, it is presumptuous to claim that track time is not happening just because there is no "Official Lateral-g.net" track day. Bill Howell generously sponsored an event. Vince Ortega generously sponsored an event. And let's not forget the SCCA. I don't need an official event because I am happy to participate in my local SCCA sponsored grassroots programs. We can't stomp our feet and whine like children to make events happen. They're happening anyway. Just get involved. And if you don't like the available offerings, STEP UP! Make it happen!

So I will reiterate my point: One thread or message board is not the end all to performance verification.

Stuart Adams

12-19-2005, 06:50 AM

Speedster

12-19-2005, 07:26 AM

Steve and Stuart... You hit the nail on the head.
It's easy to spend other people's money or require them to "use" their car. It is quite a bit different if it is your own at risk.
-Bruce

evilzee28

12-19-2005, 07:38 AM

I agree.

Come on man Step up , come on, come on, oh please would you for all us posers. We can't do it ourselves, please, oh please, come on, come on.

Rent the track, take care of insurance, get us a deal on rooms, get equipment that can document the findings YOU want from our cars, because YOUR car won't be participating, right.

You state "that was 4 days ago" - well that seems like plenty of time for YOU to get something in the works, ya think.

A little lesson: It's not what ya say its how you say it. If the original post would have been done with class and not bash, and your post would have had some class to it maybe it would be a civil discussion. But people are not going to get behind an event with rude, classless people behind it, period. We all build different cars for different reasons.

Jeez, you have bad attitude dont ya??? Sarcasm, is the lowest form of wit!! Cant you take some home truths once in a while, does the sun only shine out of your butt?? You're forgetting, I don't live in your country, is your attitude typical of Americans?

Whats the matter, don't you like constructive criticism?? This is an open forum, where people can voice their thoughts & opinions. Whether or not you agree with them is irrelevant!! They were someones opinions, just as you have yours, but there's no need to rip into him or me is there. This is just like a back patters association, it's ok if you agree with everyone, but as soon as someone questions the motives behind what you're doing you go off on one.

Don't you people have track days?? you turn up with your car, sign the disclaimer & run it!! Why do you need concession stands & all of the other crap that goes with it. Deal with your own rooms,sort out your own insurance, whats the matter can't you deal with that or is that beyond you. You couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery! Oh & by the way, what says you have class & others don't, look outside the bubble & see that there's a real world out there, where there are more important issues as to whether to spend $1000.00 on a hinge.

The sun doesn't just shine on the "supposed land of the free" ............Get a life!!!!!!

it'll be interesting to see how long this is left up before being deleted because it isn't pro American,& how much of a slagging I get for posting it by you civilised Americans. time starts now....

evilzee28

12-19-2005, 07:46 AM

Steve and Stuart... You hit the nail on the head.
It's easy to spend other people's money or require them to "use" their car. It is quite a bit different if it is your own at risk.
-Bruce

EXACTLY, people are afraid to "use" their cars in case they get dirty, so why do you all need the bragging rights of big engines, wild suspension & brakes when all the car is gonna do is hold down grass at a show. Whoopey do!!

All show, no go!

TravisB

12-19-2005, 08:16 AM

............Get a life!!!!!!

actually we would all be better off if you did!

XcYZ

12-19-2005, 08:23 AM

A little upset are we?

Everyone has different ideas what should be done with their cars. Some people race them, some people show them, some do both. Why are you so bent on proving that you're right and everyone else's ideas or intentions are wrong? Sounds like sour grapes to me - can't have it your way so it must suck, right? :rolleyes:

Steve Chryssos

12-19-2005, 08:50 AM

Nigel,
Was my post in any way directed as a personal affront to you or your country? If you don't like Stuart's tone, simply add him to your Ignore List. Rather than bounce off the rev limiter, please address my post.

Here: We will use you as an example. From your posts, I can only assume that you are an active vintage racer and industry professional. You are a participant. You are involved. Yet, I don't recall you posting any performance data or pictures of your endeavors. So am I to assume that the efforts don't exist? Just because no proof has been posted on a message board? No. So why would you or anyone else make the same assumption?

From your posts, I would guess that you race often. That tomorrow's race is no big deal. That there is no reason to make a big to-do about it. So every time I read one of these types of threads, I laugh at the thread starter's presumption. They're always looking for the same thing: A message board sponsored, highly publicized event. Somehow, anything less or different is unacceptible.

I know that the cars ARE being used and that a branded event is wholly unreasonable and unrealistic. I think you know it as well.

Stuart Adams

12-19-2005, 08:50 AM

Evil, I hope the post is left up, it just shows who YOU really are.

I'm REAL glad to be an American.

Have a good one, taking your meds right?

V8TV

12-19-2005, 06:40 PM

High dollar event or not, (although it seem that anything would be high-dollar, as soon as the liability insurance and safety crews are figured in...) we're game to shoot cool cars throwin' down the numbers. Even if there is no "vs." element... I just think it would be cool to show how a properly tuned '60's musclecar stands up to a $50k+ high tech new performance car.

Hmm... after typing that last sentence, the thought crosses me mind... does it take a $50k+ musclecar to match a $50k+ late model performance car?

Bill Howell

12-19-2005, 07:20 PM

This is just a back patters association

Actually I prefer back rubs, Stu, came you help a brother out over here! :lol:

Evilzee28, I passed on responding to your comments about my tirespinning picture earlier, but since you keep on, I must comment now. The picture was to show I am never afraid of dirt, rubber or rock chips on my car. Not to challenge anyone's burnout abilities. My car is obviously a convertible, wantta know why? I LIKE Convertibles. It doesn't have a rollbar, Why? I don't like them in convertibles. Why did I build it like I did? Cause that is what I wanted. No more, no less. However, if some type event is set up and is within 1000 miles of my home, I will be there, I will be participating and I will be pushing it as hard as I feel comfortable. I will not wreck the damn thing though just cause you or some one else thinks I should. You are more than welcomed to buy it though and do whatever you like with it. If we do have an event, bring that evil z/28 on out, I bet you right here, right now, I will spank your butt, then compete in the show and shine just for good measure. Don't worry about the sissy burnout, I got you covered where it counts. :thumbsup:

hotwheels

12-19-2005, 07:23 PM

Well my car is show and go......and i have alot of friend's here that are in the same frame of mind.
I surely wish that some who make post's like this, actually had some basis on the post (having a ride for one).
I don't see why some thought's focus purely on racing. It take's alot of time and talent to build some of the car's that are shown on this site. If you know anything about drag racing, you know that part's are expensive and those part's break. My car is currently broken needing a new engine installed. I know the risk of racing my car and have to pay to play with these risk's.

But what does trying to justify a person's idea of a car by bashing or saying that people that build show car's, are car's? Yea, they have 1,000.00 hinge's and 50k motor's, plus ton's and ton's of work involved in getting em that way to show.

To me, car's are a hobby. There are different type's of car's that are in our hobby. I don't think that bashing on a guy for building a show car is right, we need to learn to appreciate the effort and time spent in keeping our hobby alive. I for one, wish i had the talent to build a car like alot of the one's shown on this site. But even for my lack of knowledge, i build all my car's to meet what i want, and i do with my car's what i want, when i want them to do it. That includes car show's and drag racing.

There are so many talented people on this site, people need to kick back and try to enjoy what each of us bring's to this hobby. period.

JohnM69SS

12-20-2005, 09:18 AM

Jeez, you have bad attitude dont ya??? Sarcasm, is the lowest form of wit!! Cant you take some home truths once in a while, does the sun only shine out of your butt?? You're forgetting, I don't live in your country, is your attitude typical of Americans?

Whats the matter, don't you like constructive criticism?? This is an open forum, where people can voice their thoughts & opinions. Whether or not you agree with them is irrelevant!! They were someones opinions, just as you have yours, but there's no need to rip into him or me is there. This is just like a back patters association, it's ok if you agree with everyone, but as soon as someone questions the motives behind what you're doing you go off on one.

Don't you people have track days?? you turn up with your car, sign the disclaimer & run it!! Why do you need concession stands & all of the other crap that goes with it. Deal with your own rooms,sort out your own insurance, whats the matter can't you deal with that or is that beyond you. You couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery! Oh & by the way, what says you have class & others don't, look outside the bubble & see that there's a real world out there, where there are more important issues as to whether to spend $1000.00 on a hinge.

The sun doesn't just shine on the "supposed land of the free" ............Get a life!!!!!!

it'll be interesting to see how long this is left up before being deleted because it isn't pro American,& how much of a slagging I get for posting it by you civilised Americans. time starts now....

Wow, yes, I'm a lurker looking for an education and enjoying reading about the successes and failures of the people that work so hard on their projects. I rarely post because I do not have much to add, I'm just taking it all in. I hope to take the G-machine route on my next project.. but back to the reason for my post.

You have a few flaws in your logic that need to be pointed out. Your posts are not "constructive criticism". Constructive criticism is not inflammatory or insulting, but opinions or suggestions that is meant to be delivered in a positive way, not judgmentally. I deal with it all day in my job and it has improved my performance immensely. You rant and then whine when you do not receive friendly replies? Try a civilized approach yourself.
I've read many posts on this forum, and I do not see any requirements that a post must be "pro-American" to not be removed. Taking an anti-American stance is something completely different. I do not know where you are from, and do not really care to know, but it is obvious to me that you have other hidden agendas and anti-American feelings that have bled into this forum and your views of its members and their cars. It appears that you have bought into many of stereotypical views of Americans and assume that this is what we are all like. Take a look in the mirror and evaluate your actions, it might closely resemble that which you so despise.

In conclusion, you Sir, are an a$$hole.