View Full Version : Can I remove this post in my shop???
scherp69
05-26-2010, 06:36 PM
This past winter my wife bought a 2009 Dodge Charger. Now that she has that car and drives it year round, she's planning on selling her 97 Camaro RS. When the Camaro is gone, this will mean I get the entire shop to myself. One thing that I have always found really annoying in the shop is a post in the middle of the shop. I know it is a load bearing post, but is there anything I can do (that won't cost me a fortune) to get rid of the post. Why do I want to get rid of it....I think that's obvious :unibrow:
Here's a pic of the shop and the post I'm talking about. The beam above the post runs the length of the shop. That beam is two 2x10's screwed together to make one beam.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd68/scherp69/PICT0090.jpg
Here's a couple pics of the attic. I was wondering if I would be able to add more 2x4's to support the roof enough to remove the post.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd68/scherp69/P1000406.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd68/scherp69/P1000409.jpg
Anyone have any thoughts?? Thanks in advance.
Vegas69
05-26-2010, 07:44 PM
Looks kind of important. :unibrow:
Whats the span and is that beam directly under the ridge? Adding more 2x4's wont do anythig. That beam is more than likely just holding up the cieling joist by looking at the pics. You could or should of had some collar ties on those rafters. You can put a larger beam in to handle the span and load, but lots of work.It would be better to have the bottom of the beam flush with the cieling and burry the rest in the attic if that makes sense. Of course I dont know if the existing footings are large enough or what your roofing or snow loads are in that area. You would need an engineer, maybe from a truss plant, to calc that for you,... or hang a naked girl calander on the post and call it a day.
Also, I think it's time to cash in the cans.
GregWeld
05-26-2010, 09:01 PM
Bring the beer cans to Washington they're worth a nickel a piece - then hire a proper contractor. :rofl:
GregWeld
05-26-2010, 09:15 PM
Seriously - that span would have to have one heck of a beam without the post... You're carrying the roof load - and you have to calculate for a snow load etc.
I put up a "mezzanine" in the shed -- it has a single beam to carry the floor - no roof load - and it runs 16 feet - and it's 8" wide by 19 1/2" thick!
That beam isn't holding any roof load at all. Its holding the celing joists like WAR noted. First off a double 2x10 beam isnt much at all so the load isnt that great regardless of span. What is the total span of the double 2x10 beam ? The live load in clg joists arent as much as a live load in a floor joist. The clg joist dead load may not even be a factor either due to the small overall span. A beam only takes half the span. the other half is supported on the exterior walls. You can definetly get away with creating a "flitch plate" beam and eliminate the column all together. A flitch plate is the combination of conventional wooden lumber and steel plate sandwiched and thru bolted together. The splice joists overlap creating a solid beam mass. PM me ALL the dimensions of the garage including the overall span of the beam and clg joists above and the directions of each. I'll run a calculation and provide you with what size steel plate and how many additional 2x10 joists you'll need.
I have an architectural degree and its my day job if it helps reassure you... LOL.
GregWeld
05-26-2010, 09:55 PM
Now that's what this site is all about!!
EEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Rick D
05-26-2010, 10:40 PM
That beam isn't holding any roof load at all. Its holding the celing joists like WAR noted. First off a double 2x10 beam isnt much at all so the load isnt that great regardless of span. What is the total span of the double 2x10 beam ? The live load in clg joists arent as much as a live load in a floor joist. The clg joist dead load may not even be a factor either due to the small overall span. A beam only takes half the span. the other half is supported on the exterior walls. You can definetly get away with creating a "flitch plate" beam and eliminate the column all together. A flitch plate is the combination of conventional wooden lumber and steel plate sandwiched and thru bolted together. The splice joists overlap creating a solid beam mass. PM me ALL the dimensions of the garage including the overall span of the beam and clg joists above and the directions of each. I'll run a calculation and provide you with what size steel plate and how many additional 2x10 joists you'll need.
I have an architectural degree and its my day job if it helps reassure you... LOL.
Yah what he said :wow:
scherp69
05-26-2010, 10:45 PM
Thanks guys. The beer cans have been in there for probably 12 years or longer. We've never gotten around to cleaning out the attic.
War....when I said adding 2x4's, I meant adding them in a way like a collar tie. Just wasn't sure what they were called.
HRBS...thanks a lot. I'll get those measurements but likely won't be until early next week now as go back to work tomorrow and am not off until Tuesday morning.
Track Junky
05-26-2010, 11:13 PM
That beam isn't holding any roof load at all. Its holding the celing joists like WAR noted. First off a double 2x10 beam isnt much at all so the load isnt that great regardless of span. What is the total span of the double 2x10 beam ? The live load in clg joists arent as much as a live load in a floor joist. The clg joist dead load may not even be a factor either due to the small overall span. A beam only takes half the span. the other half is supported on the exterior walls. You can definetly get away with creating a "flitch plate" beam and eliminate the column all together. A flitch plate is the combination of conventional wooden lumber and steel plate sandwiched and thru bolted together. The splice joists overlap creating a solid beam mass. PM me ALL the dimensions of the garage including the overall span of the beam and clg joists above and the directions of each. I'll run a calculation and provide you with what size steel plate and how many additional 2x10 joists you'll need.
I have an architectural degree and its my day job if it helps reassure you... LOL.
Keep in mind that the double 2x10 is either butted to or on top of the garage header and with the extra weight added to the 2x10, the garage header may also have to be replaced. The beam is playing a part in supporting the ridge as you can see in the photos.
It looks like you are running 2x4 rafters at 16" o.c. with a 2x6 ridge. Its hard to tell much from the photos about the ceiling joists. Can you provide more detail about the ceiling joist. If the inside of garage picture is any indication that those are the ceiling joist I wouldn't plan on storing anything but aluminum cans up there.
I've been building homes since 1988 and have an engineer just a phone call away. If you get me photo, size, and span of garage door header along with the span of the double 2x10 I will give my engineer a call.
Like I said... I do this all day.
Ridge beams are NOT structural in ANY way. All they do is provide a mounting point for the top of the rafters to meet. The post down to the beam is ONLY there for temporary support (to hold the ridge in place) while being constructed. You as a home builder should know this. You may build homes but you build them to the way people like me design them. Not putting you down in anyway so dont take it that way..... its just that I've seen too many people make mistakes from listening to a builder rather than an architect or engineer. You have an engineer "a phone call away". I dont because I am my own engineer. Thats a BIG difference. But what do I know..... I've only been an Architectural Project Manager for 15 years....
GregWeld
05-27-2010, 08:45 AM
I think that I just learned a couple of things... Cool!
Track Junky
05-28-2010, 01:20 AM
Like I said... I do this all day.
Ridge beams are NOT structural in ANY way. All they do is provide a mounting point for the top of the rafters to meet. The post down to the beam is ONLY there for temporary support (to hold the ridge in place) while being constructed. You as a home builder should know this. You may build homes but you build them to the way people like me design them. Not putting you down in anyway so dont take it that way..... its just that I've seen too many people make mistakes from listening to a builder rather than an architect or engineer. You have an engineer "a phone call away". I dont because I am my own engineer. Thats a BIG difference. But what do I know..... I've only been an Architectural Project Manager for 15 years....
I dont want to turn this into a pissing match but you are straight up wrong. Ridge beams ARE structural members. On the other hand, ridge boards are non-structural. You, as an architect, should know this.(How did that feel Mr. not putting you down)This particular build has the 2x6 ridge acting as a ridge beam. Obviously this house was built quite awhile ago and not per ridge beam build standards of today. Being the fact that there are no collar or heel ties keeping the rafters from spreading I would definitely say the 2x members ARE supporting the ridge and keeping the rafters from spreading under load..
I'm pretty sure when you are done designing a house you are handing the plans over to a structural engineer just like every other architect does. I also have 11 more years experience than you do.
Yes, your right, there are a lot of moron contractors out there that dont know what the hell they are doing, but I make no changes to anything structural without my engineers stamped and signed approval. And 90% of the time I already know what he is going to tell me just by going off the shear table and structural pages on the plans.
And by the way, my architect did not design my 5000 sf home, my wife and I did.
Jay Hilliard
05-28-2010, 07:27 AM
Im no engineer or architect, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I say remove the beam and see what happens......just kidding, dont do that! :willy:
I dont know about everyone else, but I'm going to sit back, grill some burgers and watch this.
Hopefully there will be some agreement and you can get some direction on what to do.
Good luck!
Gaetano.... seriously I wasnt putting you down and agree I dont want this to be a pissing match. I too many times over have dealt with contractors who took the liberty to make a field change base on something they did on a past job weeks, months sometimes years ago. Just because a situation is similar it couldnt be any further from the same. Each member or beam or header etc is ALWAYS calculated on its particular criteria. there is no "book" or standard. With that said Idont want to frey away from Mikes original post.
Ridge beams are nothing more than a closer for the rafters to nail to PERIOD.
Attached are some pics of ridge beams.... please note none of them are supported from underneath like a post would be. They are all simply nailed temporarily to hold them in place untill all the rafters are secured. In the last pic you can also see at the top where the two piece ridge is spliced by a simple 2x4. I am sorry to let you down but you are 100% wrong on this.
The ridge size is soley determined on the length (span) of the ridge itself and also by the rafter size and slope (the ridge wants to be larger than the cut angle of the rafter). Another example would be a truss roof. The trusses have no "ridge" they are butted together. Even when they are erected, there is no ridge beam.
http://crodog.org/garage/firstrafters.jpg
http://crodog.org/garage/ridge2.jpg
http://crodog.org/garage/ridge3.jpg
http://crodog.org/garage/tempfloor.jpg
Yes, your right, there are a lot of moron contractors out there that dont know what the hell they are doing, but I make no changes to anything structural without my engineers stamped and signed approval.
I truely wish there were more like you on the east coast. I deal with a lot of them who make on-the-fly decisions that create nothing but major issues and becomes a nightmare for the home owner who ultimately is put in the middle. I then have to back charge one of them for my time to revise and resubmit a drawing that solves the changed issue that was a result of not doing it according to the dwgs in the first place. Never a fun time when that happens.
Anyway.... great banter... I just hope it isnt taken out of context.
I want to add one last time that I am not putting you down. If you knew me personally you would know I dont do that or attempt to call people out. I am just trying to clarify right from wrong and not stating an opinion.
GregWeld
05-28-2010, 09:12 AM
So back to Mikes OP...
Forget the ridge beam - which everyone knows is just a nailer.
Can he truss the roof - or just add collar ties?
Is the beam and post he wants to remove - something that was added for support of the "attic" area
http://www.rooftrussdesigns.com/RoofFrame.jpg
LOL Greg...
Yes he can truss the roof but this would be the most expensive ($$) option.
The least expensive IMO would be to create a flitch plate beam using the existing 2x10 beam thats there. Basically just add the 1/2" thick steel plates and additional members as calculated. I believe the end post lands in between the 2 garage doors and not over the header that would be on say 1 large garage door. If this is true he would have to open up both end walls and add a 2x4 to each side of what should be a double 2x4 post there already. then he would have to temp. support the clg joists and build the flitch plate beam. Lastly he can then remove the center post in question once completed.
This again IMO would be the easiest and least expensive option.
onevoice
05-28-2010, 01:08 PM
Ridge beams are nothing more than a closer for the rafters to nail to PERIOD.
Just so no one gets the wrong idea, a ridge beam can be used as a structural member in certain circumstances. Like a cathedral ceiling. It is a special circumstance though.
Track Junky
05-28-2010, 04:58 PM
You can lead a horse to water........................
Obviously you are not seeing the difference between ridge boards and ridge beams.
The photos you posted are ridge boards not beams.
I'm done here, nap time, LOL
GregWeld
05-28-2010, 08:28 PM
Here ya go Mike --- a flitch beam....
http://www.betterheader.com/
Just don't trying saying it fast three times to your wife ...
scherp69
05-28-2010, 09:39 PM
:lol: thanks Greg. Well I'll admit, I didn't expect this when I posted that question. In the end, if it's going to be too much of a pain or too much money, I won't do it and will get used to working around it as I'm doing now. I know that posting pics don't always tell the whole store. Before I do anything, I plan on having someone come and look at it and see it in person. I posted this to see if it was even an option. Thanks again to everyone that responded.
dubbleu
05-28-2010, 11:06 PM
For what its worth....I had a similar wood post in my shop and chaged it out to an adjustible steel post found in basements. Its cheap like $65 and it is way slimmer and sleeker than the thick wood post. It made a world of differance and was done in a half hour with the metal posts spray painted to match the shop.
nvr2fst
05-28-2010, 11:51 PM
You two (not mike) need to start another thread on structural analysis for construction. Its not an issue of your degrees and background, its resolving the OPs issue only.
skatinjay27
06-02-2010, 01:54 AM
Im no engineer or architect, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I say remove the beam and see what happens......!:lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl:
best post in this whole thread!
MarkM66
06-02-2010, 09:05 AM
Im no engineer or architect, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I say remove the beam and see what happens......just kidding, dont do that! :willy:
I dont know about everyone else, but I'm going to sit back, grill some burgers and watch this.
Hopefully there will be some agreement and you can get some direction on what to do.
Good luck!
Yeah, if the saw starts to bind while cutting, you now know the answer. LOL.
GregWeld
06-27-2010, 10:42 AM
Mike........... So??????????????????
Are you "postless" yet?? :rofl: :rofl:
scherp69
06-27-2010, 11:07 AM
No. I'm not going to worry about it right now. I ended up getting some wheel dollies for my car instead. It rolls around quite easy now with the dollies so easier to work on. I'd still like to eventually remove the post, but haven't gotten around to looking into it more.
GregWeld
06-27-2010, 06:29 PM
LOL ---- good!
Car parts or posts.... I'd choose car parts!
:cheers: :woot:
Huyzel
07-08-2010, 02:30 AM
You can lead a horse to water........................
Obviously you are not seeing the difference between ridge boards and ridge beams.
The photos you posted are ridge boards not beams.
I'm done here, nap time, LOL
I agree with you Mr. Track Junky.. Ridge beams ARE structural. Ridge Boards are NOT structural. The picture posted clearly shows a ridge board design. You can see each rafter has a plumb cut and attached to the ridge BOARD. What worries me is that a person who is educated and has a degree in this field is either confused or doesnt know the difference. Now which is worse, a bad contractor or engineer? I hope you havent been arguing with contractors over the past 15 years about this particular subject.
Huyzel
07-08-2010, 02:34 AM
Oh sorry.. i need to post evidence and sources to back things up.. let me Google.
http://www.structural101.com/Structural-Ridge-Beam.html
Supports our theory..
GregWeld
07-08-2010, 10:13 AM
The hell with the ridge beam and board and nailer...
Just "hot rod" the existing post the way I did mine! :rofl: :rofl:
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/DSC_2166.jpg
AND YES -- IT IS BOLTED TO THE FLOOR -- but the post is sitting over the bolt so it's blind. And NO I don't give a damn if it's code or not.
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/DSC_2165.jpg
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Shop%20Pix/DSC_2692.jpg
A plasma cutter -- and a Burr King.... can make almost anything!
Huyzel
07-08-2010, 03:12 PM
Thats awesome looking! How or where did you get the flames? that design would be cool on a door kick plate or something aswell :) Ideas ideas..
GregWeld
07-08-2010, 07:40 PM
Thats awesome looking! How or where did you get the flames? that design would be cool on a door kick plate or something aswell :) Ideas ideas..
Can't remember exactly -- I'm old...:D but I think I traced them off a car in Rodders Journal -- then scanned that - and then blew them up using the computer to the size I thought was right... traced them out on the steel with a welders pencil -- plasma cut 'em - and then worked the edges a bit on the ol' Burr King...
In "sheds" like ours (personal toy sheds) stuff like this is not only fun to make -- it's what sets the tone and feel of the dump. :rofl:
coolwelder62
07-09-2010, 07:59 AM
One part of my shop is 32X40 w/ W22X14 inch beam running the 40ft long w/ a 3.5x3.5x1/4 wall sq. tube. as a centered column.There is a second floor of 32x40 above for storeage. which has roughly 60#lbs. per sq. ft.load bearing wt. The engineer I hired when I built the shop said to build the shop w/o the centered column I would need a W42x24 inch beam. ( W42 means 42 pounds per running foot. 24 means 24 inches tall. you will need something of this size to carry that type of load. The engineer charge me $300.00 to size my beam after he looked over my floor plan drawing. Some large steel fabricating frims have engineers on staff that can do the math for you. Good luck.Scott.
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