Need forsight from the competitive guys...

[Xplosiv]

Me and my dad are planning on building a road race/street car. I use the term street car loosely lol. Basically as long as its got lights and we can tag its a street car. We are planning on using a lot of parts we already have from our cars over the years including his 1969 camaro z28 restoration. I have a 350ci out of a 69 camaro rs/ss and an m21 4 speed ready for the next project. I also have a 700r4 and a 355ci tuned port motor out of a 92 z28 that I could use. I need some input from the guys who actually compete with their cars whether it be recreationally or sanctioned. The platform we have in mind is a 70-73 camaro or firebird. My questions start with which would be the better motor trans setup to go with? Will the 4 speed manual be sufficient with the right gearing or would it be worth the coin to find a 5 speed or a t56? Whats the prime things to start with on the suspension? Wed like to use a built chevy 10 bolt with around a 3.23-3.42 gearset. A 12 bolt might be a good idea? The car is going to get driven, and its going to get abused. There wont be alot going into it as far as paint or body work. It'll get all the bodywork straightened out and fitted. Then a coat of solid red paint. Any and all advice that can be given is appreciated. We never owned a racer before.

[CamaroAJ]

road race go with the 4 speed. i don't think i even had my vette in 5th gear on a road track. (4th in a C5 is 1:1 just like your 4 speed.) it also had a 3:42 gear in it.

an auto on a road track sucks and with that 700r4 your just asking for trouble at some point.

[rogue]

4 speed is a riot on 90% of the tracks in CA. I rarely use the 5th on my TKO.

No auto.

[Xplosiv]

Thats pretty much what I was thinking but I just wanted to insight from someone with some experience. My dad was telling me the M21 (its a 1969 model as well) is pretty much bulletproof. I wish i could talk him out of the M22 he has in his 69 instead lol.

[brans72]

just a quick ? on the auto what if behind a 450 rwhp LS1 with 4L60e and yank 3400 stall and pro built transmission?

[Xplosiv]

My daily driver is a LS1 4l60e. I trying to stay on the lower end of the spectrum moneywis eon the drivetrain for the 2nd gen because we want to be able to put money into the suspension/braking/safety side of the car. The plans for my DD are a mild built 383 LS and a XP racing stage 2 4l60E with a moser 12 bolt. Should still have good street manners and decent mileage but still run real good down the track. :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

The 4 speed would work well for a RACE car. I like the overdrive for any street driving. One of my favorite things about my car is it's capabilities on the race track and it's awesome cruising characteristics. You could also do a TKO road race version that has the .82 5th.

[Xplosiv]

Just to get the car moving we'll most likely use the M21. The cars street driving will be mostly cruising at 30-45 mph tops and some "spirited" activity. Then we may look into a TKO. Mostly Im needing input on what direction to head towards on the suspension. The only suspension work ive done was on my 2600 lbs fwd turbo protege. It wasnt hard to wrangle all 230whp. And it came with alot of nice upgrades, a real stiff chassis, and alot of years of road racing tech behind it from the factory (tokico/racing beat, theyve both been doing mazda racing since the late 60's).

[rogue]

Just to get the car moving we'll most likely use the M21. The cars street driving will be mostly cruising at 30-45 mph tops and some "spirited" activity. Then we may look into a TKO. Mostly Im needing input on what direction to head towards on the suspension. The only suspension work ive done was on my 2600 lbs fwd turbo protege. It wasnt hard to wrangle all 230whp. And it came with alot of nice upgrades, a real stiff chassis, and alot of years of road racing tech behind it from the factory (tokico/racing beat, theyve both been doing mazda racing since the late 60's).

On the cheap:

Your choice of hotckiss springs/shocks or QA1 coilovers. (the adjustability of ride height is key)
Hotchkiss sway bar in front,
guldstrand mod on subframe
adjustable uppers
Hotchkiss Rear leaf
Subframe connectors.

DO NOT skimp on the brakes as I tried to. The Wilwood Dynapros are insufficient for competitive track use as well. Sl6 at least, or a comparable baer system. I did 3 track days on OEM style drilled disks and cracked all the rotors and even the pads. They're all Chinese made. :(

The most important part of any competitive build is the brakes, fresh bushings, and some decent tires.

Worry about drivetrain later. I have a Muncie M22 with no VIN I've been considering selling, but its worth a lot to the resto guys I think.

[rogue]

The 4 speed would work well for a RACE car. I like the overdrive for any street driving. One of my favorite things about my car is it's capabilities on the race track and it's awesome cruising characteristics. You could also do a TKO road race version that has the .82 5th.

Todd out of curiosity what sort of mpg are you getting highway?

[rogue]

Muncie m22 4 speed at buttonwillow. I miss that whine :(

M68CuIKVOww

You can see 4th gear use is minimal.

[deuce_454]

just a quick ? on the auto what if behind a 450 rwhp LS1 with 4L60e and yank 3400 stall and pro built transmission?

NO NO NO.. once you are rolling a stallspeed converter will hurt your lap times... 2600-2800 stall is all you need.... and preforably a lockup one at that... a paddleshifter will help

and the torque-multiplication of the proposed 3600 yank is just as easily done with a lower rear end ratio

[MarkM66]

On the cheap:

Your choice of hotckiss springs/shocks or QA1 coilovers. (the adjustability of ride height is key)
Hotchkiss sway bar in front,
guldstrand mod on subframe
adjustable uppers
Hotchkiss Rear leaf
Subframe connectors.

DO NOT skimp on the brakes as I tried to. The Wilwood Dynapros are insufficient for competitive track use as well. Sl6 at least, or a comparable baer system. I did 3 track days on OEM style drilled disks and cracked all the rotors and even the pads. They're all Chinese made. :(

The most important part of any competitive build is the brakes, fresh bushings, and some decent tires.

Worry about drivetrain later. I have a Muncie M22 with no VIN I've been considering selling, but its worth a lot to the resto guys I think.


Which Dynapro calipers did not work for you? These?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Wilwood-Billet-DynaPro-Single-Calipers,8754.html

[NOT A TA]

My recommendation for using an older model car as a track car is, "Keep It Simple" The more complicated things are, the more things there are that can fail. It only takes one thing to break or have a bad electrical connection or whatever to put you in the pits.

You're at the track to drive, not hunt down electrical gremlins or play with laptops trying to reprogram an ECU. You're not there to fix oil leaks on a turbo or get the hydroboost to function properly. I have missed one track session on track days 5 times due to various mechanical things. A couple were preventable and some not but they add up to a days track time. Since it ends up averaging me about $1,000.00 per track day to run the car I figure I've spent over a grand sitting in the pits. And my cars reliable! I've seen other people make one session and miss the rest of the day!!Anything you can do that will eliminate potential falures will let you use your track money where it should be used, on track!

Stick to the basics! A basic engine with road race oiling system and an old fashioned carb, simple fuel delivery system, good brakes, basic suspension upgrades, the best tires. Don't try to reinvent the race car, just use what others have used for years with success. Track time ends up being expensive, you don't want to spend it in the pits, you want a car that will go out and take a beating all day. Not the fastest one lap wonder or technical electronic marvel, just a car that works.

Every time you go to put a piece on the car, think about the simplest strongest most durable way to do it. Eliminate any unnecessary plumbing, electrical connections, etc. They're just places for possible failures. Don't install things you don't know you need. The car will tell you what it needs as you start taking it out and get better as a driver on track. Choice of welding or bolting? Look it over carefully and most likely you'll weld it because a nut and bolt can vibrate loose. There's a reason race cars have to have nuts wired. Speaking of nuts never re-use a nylock nut or torque nut, always use a new one! I learned the hard way on both.

I know this is contrary to the Pro-Touring philosophy, however, you asked about a "track car". Not about a PT car that might (or might not) hit a track or autocross once in a while. A track car needs to be ready to be pushed to it's limits for 2.5 hours a day at the track. Thats full throttle/threshold brake/full throttle/threshold brake/full throttle for over 2 hours while being tossed around corners between throttle and brake!! Thats a lot to ask of an old car so keeping it simple reduces the posibilities of being sidelined.

Listen to Dane, He has a 1st gen and goes to the track. He found what works and some things that don't. Oh, and get a good little simple video camera like a Go Pro or something. It's fun to see what you did on track later.

[Track Junky]

I road raced with my M-21 for quite awhile before I grenaded it at Infineon. I now use an M-22 and love it. Weight and tires are also very important. Shave wait where ever you can. When you buy new component think about what it weights. Toyo RA-1 or R888's tires are the best for the money and can last you quite a long time and can use them on the street. If you are trying to save money you can get away with just buying upper control arms. Everybody has leaf spring choices but I like the Global West springs and I've tried a few different brands. I fit 17x9.5 with 275/40's all the way around with stock subframe, back space is 5.5". Up front you need to cut the inner fender well and roll your fender lip but they fit. A minimum of 2 piston calipers up front with good race pads will get you by until you progress.

Good luck and glad to hear there may be another future track junky.

[coolwelder62]

If you are going to topeka ks. for that 72 camaro. You should stop by my shop and I will show how I built my suspension componets myself that are as competive as the big boys stuff. If you have some fabrication skills you could save some dough doing it you self.Scott

[Xplosiv]

We'll see what I end up doing. My 02 35th LE is most likely totalled due to hail damage, so I have to see where the dust settles after this. We got some rediculous hailstorms over the past few weeks in central oklahoma. My roof is a total loss, my wifes 08 xterra has at LEAST $3400 worth of damage. Luckily we have full coverage on everything. On the plus side, the M21 and 60 350 are officially in my posession. :) :bow:

[rogue]

Which Dynapro calipers did not work for you? These?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Wilwood-Billet-DynaPro-Single-Calipers,8754.html


The Dynapro 6 calipers.... Without the center bolt to hold the caliper together under pressure, they balloon out and I lost pedal pressure.

http://wilwood.com/Images/BrakeKits/BrakeKit_Photos-Large/kit_140-10510-DR-lg.jpg



Hence the new brakes having the center bolt. The 6Rs.
http://wilwood.com/Images/BrakeKits/BrakeKit_Photos-Large/kit_140-10815-DR-lg.jpg

[rogue]

I fit 17x9.5 with 275/40's all the way around with stock subframe, back space is 5.5". Up front you need to cut the inner fender well and roll your fender lip but they fit..


I need to work on this..... :thumbsup: