Wayne Dues C4 front sub-frame

[clay69camaro]

If you have one or have had to work on one please help me out.

I bought this thinking it was a real sweet deal, and would like to have been right.

I've heard from two sources that they are not great front subs, but I don't want to start jumping to conclusions because I'm not rich and I dropped a decent chunk of change on it lol.

[camcojb]

I believe the Mule has one, and it certainly has been tracked and responds well. However, I believe Mark Stielow changed the rack and it's location which is the biggest issue with his subframe and it's inherent bumpsteer issues. Moving the rack requires engine placement changes also which is why Wayne never changed it.

Jody

[Stuart Adams]

If you have one or have had to work on one please help me out.

I bought this thinking it was a real sweet deal, and would like to have been right.

I've heard from two sources that they are not great front subs, but I don't want to start jumping to conclusions because I'm not rich and I dropped a decent chunk of change on it lol.

Had one, not a fan. ALOT better choices out there. Heck stock frame with DSE speed kit was better for me.

[GregWeld]

Since Wayne made several versions - I'm thinking it might depend on which one you have. I had the version with all C5 components... he also had a C4 version - and his first one had tubular A arms... Not sure about the bump steer - and whether or not this was still an issue with the C4 and C5 arms etc... so just tossing this out. Bump steer can be dialed out somewhat as well... but of course, not if you can't get the steering arms parallel with the lower A arms... which might explain Mark S moving the rack etc.

[clay69camaro]

I've got the C4 version.

I'd like to get a hold of the mule. If making this one work would be cheaper than buying a new one I'm all for it.

[ProdigyCustoms]

As mentioned in the other thread, and here. It mostly has to do with rack location.

The early Art Ramnison Sp? was worse then the later Wayne Due, but still one big compromise.

I am with Stuart, I would rather have a modded factory subframe.

[clay69camaro]

all hope is lost :(

[Vegas69]

If you talk nice maybe Stielow will clue you in on what needs done. I'm sure he made it servicable. I'm sure Charlie or Jody could pull a string. :unibrow:

[98ssnova]

If you talk nice maybe Stielow will clue you in on what needs done. I'm sure he made it servicable. I'm sure Charlie or Jody could pull a string. :unibrow:

:yes: :yes:

[clay69camaro]

Yeah I spent the money on this one already, so I'm going to stick with it. Clearly it can be made to perform. Going wide open throttle on a track is all I wanna do with it.

I sent Stielow a PM, hopefully he can help me out. I would love to see what I have work.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I have fixed a few in the past. Can you post a picture?

You either had to raise the rack or modify the steering arm to get the bump steer readings better.

this was a shot of the mule. I believe it has been changed since then too. Not sure.

Vince

[ProdigyCustoms]

We moved the rack down and move the lower control arm brackets down and made steering arms and use bump steer correcters also. Motor was still high though. And bump steer is still in it.

Looks like Mark made diffferent steering arms also.

[XcYZ]

I agree with having to raise the rack. I put a Longacre bumpsteer gauge (http://lateral-g.org/temp/bumpsteer2.jpg) on my old WD subframe and it wasn't good (don't remember the range at +2, -2), but the only way to reduce it was to use the Baer Tracker spacers and move the steering arm pivot point lower. But... because the Baer Trackers are so crazy huge in diameter, I couldn't got as low as needed because they would hit the LCA at full lock. The right fix would be to raise the rack. The other issue I had was ackerman. It was basically nuetral at lock, but the only time I noticed it was when I was backing out of a parking spot - low speed, full lock, in reverse. It felt like it wanted to drag the inside tire a little.

My solution was to switch to a DSE subframe.

[clay69camaro]

Not sure on what kind of angles will help the best but here are a few pics.

Nothing is bolted in real tight, it's all just mocked up right now. I have to find the directions again but I think all the fabrication to make everything work has been done already.
If more fab is needed that will be to address the bump steer issues.24837

24839

24838

[Z06vette]

I have a C4 WD as well. Mine looks similar, but yours appears to be newer. I dont have the extra bracing from the motor mount perches up to the suspension mount. Your control arms look different as well. Have you thought about subframe connectors? I was going to use the hotchkis ones, but they wont work without modifying them. The boxed end frame rails really limit what you can use since most of them insert into the end of the frame rail. I'm just going to run the DSE solid mounts for now until the car is done. Mine is mainly a street car , the only track time it will see is at the drag strip a few times a year. What motor you running?
Scott

[clay69camaro]

I want mine to be mainly a track car, that I can terrorize my community with from time to time haha.

I'm planning on building a 434 small block. I bought some GMPP 18 degree heads a few years back with a ton of quality parts for my top end. So now I've just got to get to a point where I can afford to buy the short block.

As for subframe connectors... Haven't put much thought into them yet. I have to replace so much sheetmetal. One rear frame rails is bent from an accident before I bought the car, so I have to figure out what I'll do about that.

I feel lost in my build sometimes. like I might be doing some stuff backwards haha:willy:

[ProdigyCustoms]

I want mine to be mainly a track car, that I can terrorize my community with from time to time haha.


I am going to be blunt, as if I have not all ready! You are in a bad marriage to this subframe.

If your going to build a track car, you need to not screw with this thing. On a track car suspension is NOT the area to cheat. It is like taking a knife to a gun fight and trying to sharpen both edges of the knife instead of one side to make it better. You still lose.

I realize budget plays into these decisions. And i know it is hard to give up on something you felt so strong about at the beginning. And I am the worlds biggest fan of get it done and drive it instead of stressing over the best parts and not finishing it. I gave Clay that very advice. But he is not building a track car either!

If it were me and I had bent rear rails that had to be replaced. I would buy a AME rear clip and a front subframe to match. Then again, depending on where the rails are bent, it might all be superficial and not play into any of the suspension mounting depending what rear suspension you pick. If the rails are bent behind the mounting points you could consider any system and I would buy that companies front kit to match.

If you get a few grand for that WD frame, you net cost difference to a quality piece is a few grand.

Otherwise I just see a lot of disappointment and regret in your future if you stay in this bad marriage to this WD subframe.

[GregWeld]

Well said Frank. :thumbsup:

[clay69camaro]

I just don't understand how it worked on the mule, but it can't work for me. :( :faint:

As of right now buying a new sub-frame is 100% not an option.

I'm moving over the summer and need the car to be able to roll. Maybe after I get settled in I'll be able to get it sold, break even since I bought it used too.

Thank you though, probably will give you a call and figure out what I need for my build before I buy next time.

Mark one up for lack of experience. :(

[camcojb]

I just don't understand how it worked on the mule, but it can't work for me. :( :faint:

As of right now buying a new sub-frame is 100% not an option.

I'm moving over the summer and need the car to be able to roll. Maybe after I get settled in I'll be able to get it sold, break even since I bought it used too.

Thank you though, probably will give you a call and figure out what I need for my build before I buy next time.

Mark one up for lack of experience. :(

It can be made to work, just depends on how much work and money you want to spend to make it work. I sent Mark an e-mail, I'll let you know what he says......

I do know I rode in the Mule on a road course with Mark driving and the car was very stable and very fast. I remember Mark saying he was happy with how it worked on the track. I'm not saying it's the best way to go subframe-wise, but I think you can make it work plenty well to have fun with since you already own it and cannot afford to buy something else.

http://www.camcojb.com/temp/thunderhill 011r.jpg

[dhutton]

Probably a stupid question, but are you sure you don't have those steering arms on upside down? It looks to me like they might be and that the tie rods should be connected to the arms from the bottom. I'm far from an expert so maybe someone else who knows better will take a look.

It might help if you post a picture with the control arms set at ride height instead of full drop. The second picture that you posted is the one that just looks a little wrong to me.

Don

[Z06vette]

My tie rods mount to the bottom of the steering arms. Our C4 subs are a bit different, so I cant say for sure yours is wrong. Scott

[Vince@Meanstreets]

I think Don might be right. The rack tie rod shaft should be pretty close the the angle of the lower control arm.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/attachment.php4?attachmentid=24839&d=1273888916


Might have the sides swapped. If I remember right the steering arms do have a slight bend to them.


Vince

[ArisESQ]

i think anything can be made to perform well with the right dialing in and adjusting. realistically, a first gen camaro isn't exactly the best platform to start with if you just wanna go fast on a track anyways.

sure, the wayne due may not be the BEST option, but it's certainly an option. i say stick with it and don't regret it. i'm sure you'll be satisfied.

[68protouring454]

the tie rods do go below the steering arm.

[clay69camaro]

haha I kinda just slapped it all together for a picture. But yeah the steering arms are on wrong and the tie rods too. Nothing is even more than hand tight though.... Nice observation .

I've got to look for my directions that came with the sub-frame. I put all my camaro stuff in storage a few months back, so now I've got to track them down :willy:

We'll see how things play out. I'd like to know what Mark says as well. I'm not looking to break any world records, just set some personal ones and break them by improving my driving.

Being told to sell the sub-frame because it will never work well for the track is making me go loo loo.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

then that set up should suite you fine. Its a great set up to build from. You just have a bit of work ahead of you. Not a big deal with the right research. Take a few bumpsteer readings and find a good alignment shop to work with.


Might have better luck sending him a PM.


Vince

[Stielow]

It can be made to work, just depends on how much work and money you want to spend to make it work. I sent Mark an e-mail, I'll let you know what he says......

I do know I rode in the Mule on a road course with Mark driving and the car was very stable and very fast. I remember Mark saying he was happy with how it worked on the track. I'm not saying it's the best way to go subframe-wise, but I think you can make it work plenty well to have fun with since you already own it and cannot afford to buy something else.

http://www.camcojb.com/temp/thunderhill 011r.jpg

The Mule had a front clip from Art Rasmusion (sp?). When Art passed away un-expectantly Wayne Due purchased the tooling to make the front clips. I have NO idea what Wayne Due did to the original design...

On the Art front clip on the Mule I modified the clip to take a Delphi steering rack. A shortened C-5 Corvette. BTW that system still has a noise in it that ticks me off to this day. With that I had to made one off steering arms to fix the bump steer and ackerman angles. We also added down bars in the engine bay to triangulate it due to how light it was.

The Mule works great. But it doesn’t have a front clip made by Wayne Due!

Mark

[camcojb]

The Mule had a front clip from Art Rasmusion (sp?). When Art passed away un-expectantly Wayne Due purchased the tooling to make the front clips. I have NO idea what Wayne Due did to the original design...

On the Art front clip on the Mule I modified the clip to take a Delphi steering rack. A shortened C-5 Corvette. BTW that system still has a noise in it that ticks me off to this day. With that I had to made one off steering arms to fix the bump steer and ackerman angles. We also added down bars in the engine bay to triangulate it due to how light it was.

The Mule works great. But it doesn’t have a front clip made by Wayne Due!

Mark
thanks Mark. I thought Wayne used Art's design. If he made any revisions down the road I'm not sure what they were and when he made them. I had heard that his C4 clips were Arts design, and then he made changes when he started offering C5 clips.

Jody

[Stielow]

thanks Mark. I thought Wayne used Art's design. If he made any revisions down the road I'm not sure what they were and when he made them. I had heard that his C4 clips were Arts design, and then he made changes when he started offering C5 clips.

Jody

Jody

I'm not sure what Wayne did to Art design over time. I just wanted to point out that the sub frame I got for the Mule was built by Art and was fully TIG welded and sanded down. When I got it, it looked great. Of course that was a long time ago. Now there are many choices.

With enough care and attention to details you can get any of them to "work". I worry about strength, durability and geometry.

Mark

[Ventura]

I also have one of Wayne's C4 frames. Just comparing pictures of The Mule's frame to mine I can see that Wayne lowered the mounting points on the frame for the upper and lower A-frames. Would that have been to help with the rack geometry problems?

[clay69camaro]

^^^X's 2, My WD looks a bit beefier on the frame rails as well.

Thank you Mark for chiming in and clarifying a few things. I look forward to dialing in my suspension in the future.

Clay

[ssick chevelle]

any updates on the c4 front? if your still not wnting to go this way pm me please. ive been researching this for my 1956

[SlowProgress]

I noticed this thread sort of died out a couple of months ago. I just scanned back over it and I don't think anyone mentioned (even Mark Stielow himself) that Mark's book "Building the Mule" has a ton of photo details how to make the similar Rasmussen clip work. Of course there are newer designs and that is clearly mentioned in the book. However, there is a ton of good detail in there to make this work pretty well. Not everyone is the same. Some prefer to buy the latest design and others would prefer to fabricate and learn as they go along, making each project a little better than the last. If the later is interesting to you, I recommend the book as it is a great resource. In fact, even if the Wayne Due clip is out, the book is still a great resource and inspiration.

Scott