How do you guys deal with delays?

[427gt500E]

I'm very frustrated right now guys and I guess I need to vent a bit.My Kama Kaase pro touring Mustang was supposed to be finished May 31st.I signed the contact September 1st 2009 and the builder said there was no problem with having the car finished within the contract date.It's clearly obvious the car will not be completed on time.

A few days ago I told them they better have the car finished by June 30th and they agreed.Now they tell me they need more time and promise to have it to me by July 31st.

Now I know it takes time to build a car from ground up and they have alot of builds going on but it still pisses me off.I don't want to rush them and get a poor quality job.

So what do I do? Just sit back and say ok,no problem,when ever it's finished is ok? How would you guys handle this?

[gearheads78]

If you are only talking a few months I would not sweat it. Its when they start adding years you should worry.

[awr68]

Best thing you can do is keep in contact with them and have them sign an updated agreed contract...I know you already tried the contract thing and it didn't work...but at least they know you are serious about getting your car this summer.

Frank would say from day one the contract should have stated that for every day they go past the contracted delivery date money comes off the final bill....and for every day you would hold up the project/final payment you pay them storage fees.

You don't want to have this ruin the build or friendship you hopefully have with the builder...but as they get tired and you get anxious things can get weird. You really just have to ride it out and keep everything civil...it's best for all involved.

Best of luck with this! And remember great things come to those that wait!! :thumbsup:

[dhutton]

Unless you see some kind of reasonably detailed project plan I would not place too much faith in any promised delivery dates. If you are happy with the quality that is more than half the battle. Sometimes patience is the only cure for something like this.

Don

[out2kayak]

Agreed that a few months does not a crisis make. Patience is the key, but there is a few things you can do.

First, I would do is push a bit harder in terms of actively going there weekly and checking on progress. Not to be an a**hole or anything, but you don't want your project getting bumped for other projects around the shop.:thumbsup:

Second, make it clear that no money will be paid until the work is actually performed and stick to it. Payments are rendered when milestones are achieved and not before. :yes:

Personally, if it takes a few more months to ensure a solid build, I would have no problem with it. If its that there were other priorities and yours is not done because your priority was not as high, that's another story. They may simply be bad at estimating the tasks or the job was bigger (i.e. have to deal with more issues) than they thought. :wow: :willy:

Thoughts?

:cheers:

-- Joe

[Vegas69]

I've built a majority of my car and unexpected delays and problems come almost daily. As said, if you are happy with the quality and price of the work, be patient. These things don't go together as easy as it looks. I've been in the hurry up and wait mode back when I was in your stage. It can be brutal. Nothing happens fast building these things except for the flow of money. I'd try to take on a new perspective and think of the finish line. What other choice do you really have? None that make any sense. There are many guys around here that have been bent over after waiting years and have nothing of value to show for it.

[Camaroguy]

Have you made any changes along the way? Most builds change quite a few times as they go along. Also, is this the only project they are working on at the moment? If so and you are happy with the car I would be patient but keep close tabs!

[realcoray]

To me it would depend on what was the cause of the delay. I've had to wait months for parts for example (I just ordered something this week and only after it went through did they note it was back ordered..), and it seems unreasonable to hold people to a schedule when there were outside supplier issues.

I would of course make sure to visit regularly to see that work is being done and they aren't trashing on some other persons car while yours sits around.

I personally do all my own work at a very slow pace so nothing other than my own work ethic delays my project but I like the idea of, if there is a strict deadline set, having the cost go down.

[awr68]

All good points Guys! Stay positive! :cheers:

[427gt500E]

Thanks for the tips guys and listening to my rant:willy:

The car is being built 1500 miles away in another state so stopping by every so often is not an option.

I haven't changed the build at all.I was very complete in what I wanted when I signed the contract.They did take on too much work at once as they have about 15 or so custom builds going on now.Everyone's car is late including mine.

It's one excuss after another and it's getting very old.We do have a 100.00 a day penalty for every day the car is late but I know they will not comply with it.

Basically I'm all paid up.The situation is kind of conveluted and complicated to explain at this time but in reality I really don't owe them anything.I know they are not out to screw me or anyone else for that matter.

[DOOM]

Todd ..... Great point!! Your this far,your at the one yard line. Let these guy's do there thing. These cars are not an exact science. Think of it as a HUGE million piece puzzle sometimes you get the pieces to go together fast and sometimes it takes days to find that one you need to finish a certain area. I live this every day in my buisness, just yesterday I finished up a S500 Mercedes that took me Four days to figure out a hood alignment problem. Something so small took FOUR DAYS! Now if the customer was on my azz to get the car I could of MADE the gap work. But my customer was very patient and allowed me to repair the problem correctly. So the bottom line is it would have looked perfect YES, but was it done right?? This is why it was at my shop for a rerepair in the first place If you keep preasuring these guy's this thing can go bad in a hurry!. I know this first hand trust me....

[ItDoRun]

I was in your shoes 2-1/2 years ago and decided to pick the car up and finish it myself. Obviously that's not an option for everyone building a car and sometimes I wish I would have found another builder and dropped it off to be completed, but I didn't have that kind of cash lying around. I'll lay out an outline on things that need to be done and when I expect myself to complete them, and they never hit that date about 95% of the time.

I would just be patient and continue following up with the shop for updates. Hang in there!

[Vegas69]

No one asked, what is the status of the car currently? Post your latest photos and we'll give you a realistic time frame. It's pretty common for every shop to over promise and under deliver. I'm talking about deadlines. Even Frank was a couple months late on my roller. I did make a few changes on him. My engine builder was a few weeks late also. Well worth the wait in those cases. Have you personally seen the work?

[chr2002ca]

The 'rule' is this industry is late. The exception is 'on-time'. I've rarely seen anything get done on time, whether it be something simple like polishing a crank to something more complicated like a paint job, or whether it's handing the work to somebody else or doing it myself in my own garage. However there's a big difference between me and a professional. A professional is getting paid(usually a lot) and I am not. A professional should know that it typically takes longer than expected, and should account for that when they make an estimate or set a date in a contract. However, a professional has a business to run. They have to put food on the table for their family and pay their employees by getting you to spend your money on them. So a lot of them will provide unrealistic time estimates to get your business and to make money. Are they 'bad people' for doing this? No, not really, when you truly think about how business works. However, it's the paying customer that gets 'screwed'. Now, there are different levels of being 'screwed'. If it's a little late and the quality of work is good or very good, then you really didn't screwed at all(we've all had to wait, it's normal). However if it's late and the work is questionable, then I'd take that contract and that $100-a-day late clause that you created(for a very good reason) and contact a lawyer and put it to good use. The business(any business) needs to be accountable for when they deliver sloppy/rushed work that is late and you shouldn't ignore it just because you're happy to finally have your car back and move on. They'll just do it to the next guy.

I remember reading the thread about your car. It's sounds like it's going to be a great ride. I truly hope it turns out great and your happy with the work from the builder. :thumbsup:

[tones2SS]

Thanks for the tips guys and listening to my rant:willy:

The car is being built 1500 miles away in another state so stopping by every so often is not an option.

Yeah, if you have a WRITTEN contract for the car to be done on a EXACT date, then you have every right to pissed. I don't blame you. You actually have a good case as well, if you wantd to go that route. Especially when it is written in contract, no way of getting out of that.
As for dropping by to "check up on them". That's not your responsibility, sure it's good to drop by and see what is actually going on with your car, but if they signed a contract and promised the car done, they should/have to do what they say and signed. I don't blame you for being pissed.
GOOD LUCK!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Having built many cars myself - all 100% hands on.... I can tell you that there just is no setting drop dead dates that make sense... EVERYTHING takes way longer than you think - there is no reasonable way to foresee many of the issues... and if you want the thing RIGHT - then it just takes time.

Having said all of that... the main issue is that they're most likely working on something else... so that's the issue I would push with them - nicely - is that you want people on it and you want them to stay on it.

Biggest issue - if you're "all paid up" - you have no leverage... and they'll work on the latest project that needs to have some cash flow generated.

[DRJDVM's '69]

Its a delicate balance...... force a deadline down their throats and you may get the car on time but the quality will suffer and and in the end it wont be worth it. The car shouldnt take forever but it shouldnt be "forced" to meet a deadline or corners will be cut.

Obviously the length of the deadline is a factor too.....when I hear "it will take 2 months", I plan for 4-5 months...once I get passed that "extra buffer" I knew needed to be there, then I get ticked off.

I would be very uneasy with a contract that decucted $$ off the bill if the car is delayed..... depending on the shop, I would be worried that with the $$ aspect looming over them, they would cut some corners just to get it done so they dont lose $$

Good work isnt usually fast and fast work isnt usually good.

[Vegas69]

Yeah, if you have a WRITTEN contract for the car to be done on a EXACT date, then you have every right to pissed. I don't blame you. You actually have a good case as well, if you wantd to go that route. Especially when it is written in contract, no way of getting out of that.
As for dropping by to "check up on them". That's not your responsibility, sure it's good to drop by and see what is actually going on with your car, but if they signed a contract and promised the car done, they should/have to do what they say and signed. I don't blame you for being pissed.
GOOD LUCK!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Send me those rose colored glasses.....

[427gt500E]

Guys,thanks for all the advice,opinions,thoughts on how to handle this situation.Very good points from each and everyone of you.

Here's the deal.The metalwork is about 80% finished.All that needs to be done is install the rear floor,frame rails and roof skin and I would imagine some tidy up work too.My car has been sitting idle for a couple weeks because whichever client bitches the loudest get more done I suppose.The car ahead of me is in the final stages of completion before its sent off to Ireland.The metalworker is getting everything finished up under the car because the owner will fly out this weekend to see his car in the final stage.

My car was supposed to be out of metalwork last month but it wasn't.They keep telling me next week,next week,next week...you get the idea...delays.

There really isn't much bodywork to do as every single panel is brand new sheetmetal.The shop says it should only be in bodywork about 10 days to 2 weeks because everything is new.But their timeline never seems to go with their schedule.

I'm as polite and professional and i'm having a difficult time keeping this game face on because of the delays and excuses.This is the 2nd car they built for me and that car was 3 months late on delivery.For some reason I see this car being way past their agreed delivery date of July 31st.

I'm really in a bad position of not knowing how to handle this as my patients are starting to wear very thin and I really don't want to piss them off.


I forgot to mention this.Even though I'm all paid up on this car,I have had to buy parts for the car as the shop had cash flow issues...not enough money coming in quick enough.I've put out about 20k in parts and we do have a contract that this money will be paid back but it hasn't yet.So,to cover myself I requested the title to a 1972 Pantera they own which is in the process of restoration and shelved at the moment as they are working on customers cars.I do have the Pantrea title in my possession.

[skatinjay27]

Send me those rose colored glasses.....

hahahaha!!!!!!:unibrow:

[speedjohnston]

This isn't going to help but, I was told 3 - 4 months for my chassis/cage to be built and it took 17 months.
I was going insane....
But I'm much better now. :lol:
My poor wife had to deal with my constant frustration.

[ccracin]

You know I'm reading this thread and seeing guys that I respect say that it doesn't matter how late it is as long as it is right. I am blown away that this type of thing is so widely accepted in this industry/hobby. My company builds 500,000 dollar and up custom equipment and if we were as late as some of these guys I'm reading about, we would be out of business. Plain and simple! If you are a "Pro" builder and you commit to a deadline, than you should meet it. The "Pro" part means you know and understand what it takes to build what it is you are promising. My Dad built custom homes for people. He would not have had business if he told them It will be right, but I have no idea when you will move in? If you are in this business and you cannot accurately predict what it is going to take to complete a project then DON'T COMMIT TO IT IN WRITING! If you are up front with the customer and you both agree that this is a process that will be fluid and the end date can not be fixed, I find that to be perfectly fine. Everyone is on the same page. Getting back to what I do for a living. We have to quote jobs competitively priced as well as delivery. If we are late we most likely will not get another order. If we pad the delivery to be "safe" we will loose the job to our competition who will get it done. Maybe that is the problem here, if everyone thinks like this than there is no other options for people which means nothing will change. That is sad if it is true. If you say you have to cut corners to meet deadlines, that is sad as well. Any build that involves contracts and progress payments should also include either regular inspections during the progress or very detailed pictures of all aspects during the build. With today's technology you can take and save 1000's of pictures very easily. I am really taken back here. If a customer demands unrealistic deliveries it is the responsibility of the shop to set it straight and not commit to something they know they can't meet. If that means losing the job than so be it! Committing to unachievable deadlines just to get the job is unethical. Again, plain and simple! I apologize, I am not normally this opinionated, but I really think that this very subject could spell the demise of this hobby in the long run. If enough people get disgusted with the process, guess what they find something else to spend money on. We should be spending time figuring out how to get something done than explaining all the reasons you can't. JMO Hopefully I didn't lose any friends over this one! :cheers:

[buickfunnycar.com]

This is your second car with them and you have paid in full before taking delivery?:rolleyes:
Can you see where they have very little motivation to complete your car...?

Before this turns into a nightmare,why not call them and tell them you are taking a trip to check on progress like the customer from Ireland is doing...that should get them to at least knock the dust off of it.

Sorry to hear about this but there are lessons to be learned here...

[GregWeld]

Chad ---

I think we'd all agree with your take on how it SHOULD BE... but (big BUTT)...
Most customers only ever build one car with one shop... and generally I would say that the shop isn't even around by the time you'd be back to build #2

My point here is that there really aren't many repeat customers to worry about.

If I was to have my 37 Ford "pro built" - it would only go to one shop - Roy Brizios... he has multiple repeat customers - his cars are done ON TIME - and they're show winning DRIVERS... Just my kind of place!!

I also think that many of the delays are customer caused -- they get in there and one thing leads to another... BUT I also know the only reason they aren't getting done - is because nobody is working on them.

In this case - the shop is tight on money (so says the OP) so they're going to focus on FRESH cash flow - newest guy in - has to get some work done - so the shop can make payroll... AND we know they owe him (the OP) money - and he'll want his money upon completion... LOL yeah right! Good luck with that!

Oh and having the title to the Pantera -- won't do you much good if it's got a labor lien on it.

[427gt500E]

The builders metal guy emailed me this afternoon and advised the Ireland car will be finished by the weekend and starting Monday all his attention will be devoted to my car.He's very good about emailing status pics once a day and he'll start doing that again next week.The only thing left to do is the roof skin,rear rails and rear floor.

He wants me out there the weekend of the 29th to see the finished metalwork which I will fly out for that.I was there April 6th and everything looked fine but work on it came to a halt to get other cars out the door.

I'm starting to get a warm and fuzzy again especically since the guy working on the car told me all his attention will be on my car to get it out to the bodyshop.

[ccracin]

Chad ---

I think we'd all agree with your take on how it SHOULD BE... but (big BUTT)...
Most customers only ever build one car with one shop... and generally I would say that the shop isn't even around by the time you'd be back to build #2

My point here is that there really aren't many repeat customers to worry about.

This kind of behavior is probably why these shops aren't around by the time people can afford to build the second car. Just because you don't think there is a chance a repeat business doesn't mean taking advantage is ok.


If I was to have my 37 Ford "pro built" - it would only go to one shop - Roy Brizios... he has multiple repeat customers - his cars are done ON TIME - and they're show winning DRIVERS... Just my kind of place!!

He obviously has made an impression on you by doing things the way they should be done. Maybe some of these other shops should take some lessons.


I also think that many of the delays are customer caused -- they get in there and one thing leads to another... BUT I also know the only reason they aren't getting done - is because nobody is working on them.

In this case - the shop is tight on money (so says the OP) so they're going to focus on FRESH cash flow - newest guy in - has to get some work done - so the shop can make payroll... AND we know they owe him (the OP) money - and he'll want his money upon completion... LOL yeah right! Good luck with that!

I know this fact all too well. Changes should be dealt with in a professional manor. Change orders should be recorded and signed off on by both parties agreeing on cost and time impact. One of my very good friends owned a Rod and Custom shop near me. He was one of the most talented paint and body guys I have ever seen. He was also one of the worst business men I have ever seen. He lasted 5 years before closing the doors. He fell victim to the same issue you mentioned above. He would get into a car get some money and move to the next, get some more money and start another. Before you know he was jammed up, too many projects not enough time people getting pissed not paying on time and now you are stealing from Peter to pay Paul. It caught up and boom one of the best shops in the area quality wise was gone.

I know what you are saying Greg, but I just can't help but be disappointed that this kind of behavior is becoming accepted. Hell, not just accepted but almost the rule. If my builder ever pulls this, I'll break his legs............wait a minute I'm the builder. I better get to work!:rofl: :rofl: I hope it all works out for 427 and I hope this trend does not continue to gain momentum. Rant over. :cheers:

[tones2SS]

Send me those rose colored glasses.....

lol...:rofl: :_paranoid

[Camaroguy]

The builder is a member of this forum, I think. It would be great to here what his thoughts are on this situation!

[Reckley]

If you are a "Pro" builder and you commit to a deadline, than you should meet it.

I have to agree with this point. Everyone in business has to meet deadlines. Why should custom car building be any different?

Mike

[Vegas69]

That's really not the point. Unfortunately, the law of averages would lead me to believe that over 90% of promised deadlines are not met. Mostly just to suck the client in the door. Let's face it, most people don't understand what it takes to make one of the pro-touring car make noise reliably and sorted. I certainly don't think mis leading is good business practice but the truth would scare the average consumer half to death.

[96z28ss]

I think it all depends on the shop and the project.
I would assume a shop like DSE could estimate a 1969 Camaro build cost to within a couple grand and deadline within a couple weeks.
Give DSE a Ford mustang and they might not be able to estimate it closely.

Same with a shop like Ring Brothers, they can probably estimate and meet a deadline on a Mustand pretty close.

[Reckley]

That's really not the point. Unfortunately, the law of averages would lead me to believe that over 90% of promised deadlines are not met. Mostly just to suck the client in the door. Let's face it, most people don't understand what it takes to make one of the pro-touring car make noise reliably and sorted. I certainly don't think mis leading is good business practice but the truth would scare the average consumer half to death.

I agree with you that 90% of deadlines are not met in the custom car business? I also agree that "most people" don't understand the complexity of pro-touring cars.

Respectfully, it sounds like your point or "the point" is that missed deadlines are the norm in the custom car business and everyone just needs to accept it. I think this is most likely true but, I don't like. I don't think anyone should settle for it.

Just my opinion.
Mike

[Vegas69]

Some things in life just come with the territory. It's one of the big negatives of the restoration world. If you look through this thread, the guys that have been though it are saying it's not out of the ordinary. While I'd be pissed like the original poster, now I realize it's more the norm than a rarity. Five years ago I would of had no clue what went on in the restoration business. It's not all the shops fault either, different projects mean different problems. Moral of the story, restoring a car is not easy!:lol:

[427gt500E]

I think the bottom line is the shop took on way to much work/projects and keeping everyone happy is beginning to be a problem.They finally realized they got in too deep too quick.

Seriously guys,I not too pissed off the car is a couple months late.I'm am pissed that my car has been sitting the month of April collecting dust so as to get other cars finished and out the door but it appears we may be back on track next week when they "say" they will center their attention on my car to get the metal work finished.

Summers are short in Colorado and if it's later than their promised date of July 31st then I'll be very angry because what was quoted as a 9 month build will turn into a 12 month build which is not acceptable to me.

I really want to be able to enjoy the car this summer.

[Taman]

I am getting my suspension redone on my 75 TA. I have been being told 2 weeks for about 2 months. I do understand the delays, since mine is the first Firebird to get the Heidt's subframe. I still stinks. At least Spring has been cold here in the Chicago area. So that helps some. When your car gets finished and you get your first thumbs up, you will forget about all the delays. Maybe you could get him to knock some of the cost down for being so late.

[427gt500E]

This will explain everything with Memory Lane Classics.Yea,I got screwed for 101.000 dollars and so did alot of other people.F king sucks...


http://eleanorinspired1967mustangfastback.yuku.com/topic/2153

[Muscle Car PWR]

How much money have you put up? I wouldnt pony up any more dough for labor until you see the progress you want.

[Roger M]

Wow.. that bites

[GregWeld]

This will explain everything with Memory Lane Classics.Yea,I got screwed for 101.000 dollars and so did alot of other people.F king sucks...


http://eleanorinspired1967mustangfastback.yuku.com/topic/2153

I'm not sure when you started the post that "explains everything" -- I'll ASSume it was a couple months ago? I couldn't find the date of the original post - but read every post from the beginning.

You stated you had an attorney... What's he doing about getting you a refund or a car? Your post here says after all the lies that have been told to you and many others... and the many negative stories about this "builder"... you're STILL waiting for your car to be delivered? And you still think you're going to get a "quality" build?

By the way - you never did do the big reveal you promised would happen on "day 3".

So where's this story going?

[onevoice]

Looks like that other post is dated 5/22, ie after he said he was still hoping in his post here. Looks like it has all gone to hell.

[427gt500E]

Did you guys read the entire Eleanor forum I linked here.That will explain everything.Noway I have time to duplicate that here.

[96z28ss]

MLC they post here at Lateral-g also.
Here are some of there posts.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=26883&highlight=memory+lane

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=26031&highlight=memory+lane

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=26302&highlight=memory+lane


It looks like another builder screwing customers.
I would get on a plane and rent a truck and trailer and get my stuff out of there ASAP.

[DOOM]

MLC they post here at Lateral-g also.
Here are some of there posts.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=26883&highlight=memory+lane

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=26031&highlight=memory+lane

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=26302&highlight=memory+lane


It looks like another builder screwing customers.
I would get on a plane and rent a truck and trailer and get my stuff out of there ASAP.

:yes: :yes: :yes: This is just friggin unreal!!!!!