ultimate pro touring car discussion?

[legend]

Anyone in?

after reading prodigy's build thread I wondered what everyone would build if the time and money was available.

body, engine, gearbox, suspension, aero etc.

for inspiration (http://www.projectrpm.com/nelsonracingengines/We-need-your-help-picking-a-name-for-the-Nelson-Supercar-008.html)

I wonder what the guys that build F1 cars or professional suspension engineers would come up with?

[Vegas69]

It's sitting in my garage....:unibrow: I wouldn't change anything.

[Steve1968LS2]

I would build my car.. same suspension, engine, trans, rear..

I would swap the shocks to Penske double adjustables.. simply the best out there if money isn't an option. I would do a few body mods.. not many though since I like the Camaro's classic lines.

BUT.. with a new cage system (using cromol).. more CF and more aluminum to get the weight down. I would also rebuild the dash to get rid of all my gauges except the STACK unit.. again, for weight savings. I have no desire for ABS, tracktion control, or other "complications"

I would rather have less weight than more power any day..

[legend]

no full IRS or spaceframe chassis?

John Beardmore's (http://www.beardmorebros.co.uk/website%20pages/new_project.htm) minor takes things just about as far as you can, this side of F1 technology

[69MyWay]

My buddy has a retiring GT1 Oldsmobile. In fact...he is selling it and it got me thinking. If you could get a MSO title for this thing and then de-contruct the pure race aspect of it...and install some nice creature comforts it could be the ultimate car.

The brakes, axles, supsension...and handling of the car would be superior to any 60s car that is modified. Converting to doors that will open and close (as shells over the cage) with plent of carbon fiber close out panels...defrost...a/c...and much more.

I'd yank the race engine and install a LS and a T56. There would be ample room for tubros...or anything else. The sky is the limit on the re-body panels.

http://www.tropiczoneracing.com/images/The.Race.Car1.jpg

http://www.tropiczoneracing.com/images/The.Race.Car2.jpg

http://www.tropiczoneracing.com/images/Oldsdayw.jpg

:lateral:

[Ron in SoCal]

Anyone in?

after reading prodigy's build thread I wondered what everyone would build if the time and money was available.

body, engine, gearbox, suspension, aero etc.

for inspiration (http://www.projectrpm.com/nelsonracingengines/We-need-your-help-picking-a-name-for-the-Nelson-Supercar-008.html)

I wonder what the guys that build F1 cars or professional suspension engineers would come up with?

Fun thread...unlimited budget: I'd get Matt @ AME, Mike Norris, Frank in a room with a blank sheet of paper. I'd tell them to make a full frame 68 Camaro that is the baddest thing ever. I'd call Nelson and tell them to prep the biggest cube NA LS motor ever conceived, maybe start with a World Products 454 aluminum block mated to a modified t-56. I'd call Tyler and tell him to drop everything - R&D me a full CF panel car. I'd make sure aluminum interior panels are used everwhere possible. Finally, I'd find a Indycar team to fab up as much duct cooling as could be packaged to the brakes, which would be Brembo CF rotors race all around. I'd probably have Fessler do the interior, as his 'velle is one of the nicest around. That'd be v1 of the plan....

[mfain]

I've been working on the same car for 35 years and it is interesting to track the evolution. I started with basically a street/drag car with a small block, and four major evolutions later ended up with a caged, full independant suspension, aluminum big block semi-street/ road race car. Over the years, most of the changes were aimed at improving suspension, brakes, and aerodynamics with a big emphasis on reducing weight, improving front to rear weight balance, and putting more rubber on the ground. As I became more successful in my career, I was able to buy and develop better parts -- 7075 aluminum replaced steel, etc. And its still changing! Based on my experience, I would have to say that what you think would be perfect today may look a lot different to you a few years down the road.

Pappy

[6spdcamaro]

I would call the Ring Brothers... :yes:

[Rybar]

Mark Stielow's latest '69: Blue Bomber, Apex, Kompressor or whatever it's called. :yes:

[monza]

Fun thread...unlimited budget: I'd get Matt @ AME, Mike Norris, Frank in a room with a blank sheet of paper. I'd tell them to make a full frame 68 Camaro that is the baddest thing ever. I'd call Nelson and tell them to prep the biggest cube NA LS motor ever conceived, maybe start with a World Products 454 aluminum block mated to a modified t-56. I'd call Tyler and tell him to drop everything - R&D me a full CF panel car. I'd make sure aluminum interior panels are used everwhere possible. Finally, I'd find a Indycar team to fab up as much duct cooling as could be packaged to the brakes, which would be Brembo CF rotors race all around. I'd probably have Fessler do the interior, as his 'velle is one of the nicest around. That'd be v1 of the plan....


Sounds like a solid plan! I'd let Nelson do a turbo if he wanted... maybe toss it to the Recovery Room for Interior.

[nvr2fst]

It's sitting in my garage....:unibrow: I wouldn't change anything.

I agree with Todd, except mines sitting in Ironworks garage. Wouldn't change anything so far, at least not to rattle Rodger's cage.

[coolwelder62]

Are we building a real pro touring car or a real race car.Do we want the car to be able to compete w/ cars like Bad Penny,Mary Pozzi's73 camaro.Ryan Mathews in DSE's 69 camaro,Jackass,Mark Steilow's new 69 or Brian Finch's 70 camaro. These are all top notch G-machine's.And could only be faster w/ maybe a Boris said behind the wheel. Or are we going to build a car like an Aussie V8 super car.????

[ccracin]

Are we building a real pro touring car or a real race car.Do we want the car to be able to compete w/ cars like Bad Penny,Mary Pozzi's73 camaro.Ryan Mathews in DSE's 69 camaro,Jackass,Mark Steilow's new 69 or Brian Finch's 70 camaro. These are all top notch G-machine's.And could only be faster w/ maybe a Boris said behind the wheel. Or are we going to build a car like an Aussie V8 super car.????

Yes and Yes! This thread could give people some trick ideas if it continues. Keep it coming!:lateral:

[Vegas69]

This is the perfect thread for me to get something off my mind. It's my opinion that some are headed in the wrong direction in their thinking of building the "ideal" pro-touring car. One of the best things about my car is its ability to cruise in comfort on a lazy Sunday reliably and earn it's respect on the race track. Sometimes in the same day. I feel I've pushed my car about as far as I'd like. In most cases, a better race car means a compromise in the other arena. I'm sure alot of guys are wondering what the hell I'm talking about since they've never even turned the key in their project. I'll give you some examples.........

[LIST]
A full cage or partial that compromises your comfort of makes it unsafe without a helmet
No sound deadener to save weight(Rattles, overly noisy ride)
High spring rates to limit body roll(I went to coil overs and adjustable shocks to get rid of the leaf spring ride) My car rides so nice...
Simple functional systems of any car(door handles, hidden wiper motors, heater, stereo)
Race belts(Will you really wear a 5 point harness on the street?)
Fixed back seats
[LIST]

There are many more that I'm guilty of in the drive to have a capable street and race car. Once a car is no fun to cruise, it's a race car and Pro-Touring is dead in my opinion. Maybe I'm taking it personal and feel it's all about the racing end of the spectrum. These are fair race cars. Hell, I ran within 5 seconds of that crazy Porsche super car on the road course at El Toro. My point is, the faster I get, their are choices that can be made that compromise the function of a pro-touring car. :D

[Ron in SoCal]

I don't disagree at all Tood. When we start talking about 'unlimited budgets' this thread sorta turns into a what if discussion, as if we were sitting in your garage shotgunning beers. My build is nowhere close to what I described above. It'll never be Penny or OneLap. I wanna drive it and go to Street Car events!

The esscence of PT won't die, because most guys will reach just to build 'em something like you and Finch!

Ron

P.S. I'm thinking Dynamat extreme...:lol:

[phillym5]

I honestly would re build my car...
I take my lady out to eat with it... drop my daughter off at school.... get 20 mpg cruisin at 80mph on the freeway... 13mpg in the city... carve through the back roads with the vipers and porsche's... and keep up with if not take over the Busa's on the freeway. All weighing in at 3800 lbs... bumping my stereo system... sitting in traffic with no over heating worries....ect...ect...ect.:lateral:

[Matt@BOS]

This is the perfect thread for me to get something off my mind. It's my opinion that some are headed in the wrong direction in their thinking of building the "ideal" pro-touring car. One of the best things about my car is its ability to cruise in comfort on a lazy Sunday reliably and earn it's respect on the race track. Sometimes in the same day. I feel I've pushed my car about as far as I'd like. In most cases, a better race car means a compromise in the other arena. I'm sure alot of guys are wondering what the hell I'm talking about since they've never even turned the key in their project. I'll give you some examples.........

[LIST]
A full cage or partial that compromises your comfort of makes it unsafe without a helmet
No sound deadener to save weight(Rattles, overly noisy ride)
High spring rates to limit body roll(I went to coil overs and adjustable shocks to get rid of the leaf spring ride) My car rides so nice...
Simple functional systems of any car(door handles, hidden wiper motors, heater, stereo)
Race belts(Will you really wear a 5 point harness on the street?)
Fixed back seats
[LIST]

There are many more that I'm guilty of in the drive to have a capable street and race car. Once a car is no fun to cruise, it's a race car and Pro-Touring is dead in my opinion. Maybe I'm taking it personal and feel it's all about the racing end of the spectrum. These are fair race cars. Hell, I ran within 5 seconds of that crazy Porsche super car on the road course at El Toro. My point is, the faster I get, their are choices that can be made that compromise the function of a pro-touring car. :D

What he said...
We're all talking about building cars that are great at everything and yet here we are going back and forth about the topic because its pretty impossible to make the ultimate, "I'm good at everything" car. Some cars are more race car, some more street car, and some are more show car. What is perfect for one person won't be for the next. For example, Bad Penny is straddling the line of being too much of a race car for me, but Steve is so madly in love with her that he can look passed her faults (i.e. climbing in and out, which is not easy) . Personally I'd rather have a car like the DSE '69 that is practically a beater with one hell of a suspension and drive train. On the other end of the spectrum towards show car, there's my Camaro. There are times I wish I could just leave it in a parking lot without worrying, or kill cones without guilt.

Matt

[coolwelder62]

My car is every thing you guys just talked about.No dyna mat,fixed back seats,full cage,big sway bars, stiff springs,super wide tires that follow every rut in the road, load exhaust,no A/C,no radio,chrome moly rod ends in the suspension,It's turned out just the way I wanted it. It's fun to drive,and w/ a good wheel man in it will hold it's own on the track Now I want to build a car that is what Todd has.Smooth & quiet ride,but yet able to kick butt at auto-x & track days.and look good at a show & shine,Get in it and drive it the whole power tour in 2011.A real pro-touring car is Jackass,or Brian Finches camaro. Those car finished in the top 5 at Optima in Nov. and they are drivien hundredes of miles on the roads.And looked good doing it.For me I would want Kyle Tuckers 70 camaro.I love everything about the car,chiped paint and all.Scott.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I am flattered Project Unfair brought this up. And I want to be clear, John and I have NO illusions of Unfair being the Ultimate Pro Touring Car. It will be the fastest all around though! I have some ideas for the Ultimate "Pro Touring Car", but will save that for next time! i will say the focus will be on the "Touring" portion in a car that hauls ass.

I agree with what Todd is saying. I am not a "Street Fighter" guy at all. I have a street / drag car. And yes I can cruise it to Steak and Shake. Yes I have done the RTTHs 45 mile cruise 3 times WITH the Pro Touring cars. And hell yes, my knuckles are sore as hell from holding on!

In reference to what Todd says, I agree 100%. We WILL NOT give up comfort to achieve our goals. But Unfair WILL NOT be AS comfy as I have made many of my projects. Some where between II Much and EmtpyNest is a happy medium we can achieve without giving up our performance goals.



A full cage or partial that compromises your comfort of makes it unsafe without a helmet We are working on some stuff on the cage to make it safer, keep your head away from it. We also will take full advantage of legal pin in bars where allowed. I HATE climbing over door bars!

No sound deadener to save weight(Rattles, overly noisy ride) Says the man with 3" dump exhaust! LOL! We will dynamat the floor, we are not worried about 72LBS weight only 8" Off the ground in the middle of the car. We actually like that idea. Moves the COG down. That is called good weight!

High spring rates to limit body roll(I went to coil overs and adjustable shocks to get rid of the leaf spring ride) My car rides so nice... We will use spring rates within a few LBS of yours. And a 3 link rides SO NICE, even better then a 4 link.

Simple functional systems of any car(door handles, hidden wiper motors, heater, stereo) Agreed. Wipers are mandatory, if John had a regret on II Much it was deleting the wipers. We are hiding the wiper motor, but I see no issue with that. I HATE no door handle cars! Heat, yes we need heat. You did not mention A/C (Clears throat). I feel A/C is a requirement also. Little know the fact. The shipping weight for a complete Vintage Air Gen IV system is 58LBS! that is a 58LBS weight penalty we will gladly take. Stereo, hell yes. We will have a removable system like John just had installed in his ZO6 that plays through 4 speakers through a high powered deck and has a amplified subwoofer and amp we can quick disconnect, remove for racing and still have tunes. So total weight for the stereo, about 15LB without the 100LB subwoofer. I liken this to removing the spare tire and tool box most do for racing.

Race belts(Will you really wear a 5 point harness on the street?) Actually, Yes. Sort of. I do wear 4 of the 5 belts on the street. I do admit no using the submarine belt on the street. but I find 4 point belts more comfortable then a 3 point belts.

Fixed back seats I am with you. We got to be able to recline on the street. And my racing position is much different then my cruising position. We have a plan to have both with a simple bracket we will bolt in the back rest to the cross bar to make the recliner fixed back at the track.

[legend]

modern production cars such as the M5 and AMG mecedes can cross continents at crazy high speeds, in full comfort with the aircon on etc. and still hang with a lot of "sports cars" on the track

I guess my idea of what it is all about is something that gives you loads of fun on track or strip, but you can still take your lady out to dinner in without her hating the journey

however i do keep thinking up "what if" ideas, and i love the idea of 40-50 yr old cars killing modern machinery on track.

[Vegas69]

That's the thing legend. These aren't M5's. These parts and cars don't have a gazillion dollars in R&D. It's impossible to build a car that's that compliant in every avenue. Impossible. If those are your goals, I'd save your money and buy a modern car. By the way, I'll give myself one hell of a chance against that M5 on the race track.

LOL....Frank,you got me. I've got so much insulation that it cruises pretty quiet even with the dumps. Second skin, heat wave pro, carpet with jute pading. I also have solid motor mounts and body mounts. I simply don't have the tunnel or hood clearance for engine movement.(Sombody, clears his throat, put half height body bushings in my car) The engine is internally balanced down to the clutch. QA1 end links out back. I tore those air ride bushings up in one autocross. A turn one power steering pump that doesn't work great at idle. I puked the stock pump in one Road Race event. More aggressive front pads that make noise intermittently. The other pads didn't make a peep but didn't have great cold performance or longevity under road racing conditions. Solid lifters in the engine. They are really just as quiet as the previous engine and the hydraulic cam. Maybe more so. I bought top shelf lifters, stud girdle, etc. That was the only way to make big power at high rpm reliably. These are the things I'm talking about. I'm guilty as charged. It's simply harder to make a car do two things well. My whole point was really to get in some of these guys heads before they lay out the money on what they think they want. More importantly, what they think the end result will be. It sure as hell won't be an M5 no matter how much money you spend.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I simply don't have the tunnel or hood clearance for engine movement.(Sombody, clears his throat, put half height body bushings in my car) .


I'll never do that again!

[ProdigyCustoms]

I simply don't have the tunnel or hood clearance for engine movement.(Sombody, clears his throat, put half height body bushings in my car) .


I'll never do that again! And FYI.

The absolute number one car I am called and asked how much to duplicate.....................

Payback!

So I think you nailed it.

[parsonsj]

This is a good thread. Comfort, NVH, and entertainment are huge components in having a satisfying driving experience. That was a real lesson learned from II Much.

I started off with that car having no radio, heat, ac, much interior, or sound deadening. Over the 3 years I drove it, I was continually adding things:

1. sound deadening
2. high end carpeting (Mercedes level)
3. heat/defrost/AC (Vintage Air Gen IV setup)... I had to tear the car apart for that.
4. stereo -- a simple iPhone-based system, but I had tunes along with a sub-woofer
5. swapped the Locker differential for a TrueTrac
6. swapped the heim joints for Spohn's Del-Sphere Pivot Joints
7. had 3 clutches in the car before I found one I liked.

And I always regretted filling in the header panel and losing the windshield wipers. And thank goodness Frank stopped me from using a Lexan windshield. :)

jp

[Vegas69]

I'll never do that again! And FYI.

The absolute number one car I am called and asked how much to duplicate.....................

Payback!

So I think you nailed it.

I'm sure you tell them that you couldn't do that to your good buddy Todd. :rofl: :cheers:

[Steve1968LS2]

What he said...
We're all talking about building cars that are great at everything and yet here we are going back and forth about the topic because its pretty impossible to make the ultimate, "I'm good at everything" car. Some cars are more race car, some more street car, and some are more show car. What is perfect for one person won't be for the next. For example, Bad Penny is straddling the line of being too much of a race car for me, but Steve is so madly in love with her that he can look passed her faults (i.e. climbing in and out, which is not easy) . Personally I'd rather have a car like the DSE '69 that is practically a beater with one hell of a suspension and drive train. On the other end of the spectrum towards show car, there's my Camaro. There are times I wish I could just leave it in a parking lot without worrying, or kill cones without guilt.

Matt

"madly in love" is a bit strong.. lol

BUT, my last car was so street-rod that I wanted one a bit more in your face.. it's my play car, not my daily commuter so I don't mind the side bar or the firmer ride. I still think she rides nice and is a pleasure to drive. And yes, I wear my four-point harness even when I drive around town.

If there's a spectrum where 1 is a pure show car and 10 is a race car Penny falls at around 6.. use to be 7 before I put in the audio system :)

I wanted an edgy play car.. I got one.. but I think that if people start trying to build race cars in the guise of a street car then they won't be very happy, except maybe when they are on the race track.

[GregWeld]

I read this from start to finish - and then had to laugh to myself.

What the end result is/was - a description of what "pro touring" is. A car that is good at most things - handles - stops - goes like stink - wins the occasional car show trophy - and can be driven in comfort and style with cold A/C and killer tunes blasting. Uncork the headers and have fun on a weekend track.

More than that is too much "race car"

Less than that is "just another car"

I agree that Payback has that nailed. Looks great - great stance - big azz motor - big azz tires - big brakes... driver is so so... but he gets the job done.:D

If I was "judging" and had to put brackets at each end of the description of what is a pro touring car I would choose it like this:

At one end would be Matts car: Just a little too much show car
Payback and Jackass, the Mule would set the bar
Steves car: is just a little too much race car

Both (Matts and Steves) would fit the "pro touring" description for me - but they'd also represent the end caps.

[Steve1968LS2]

Personally I don't see the "race car" in Penny.. aside for the door bars that is.. lol

To be honest I wouldn't have built that cage, but it came in the car and is part of the car's history.. plus I hate painting cages.

The no AC/Heater/Wipers is just a function of where I live.

[GregWeld]

Steve --

I wasn't picking your car apart... rather - just stating an opinion from a observers point of view of a diffiniton.

Here's the thing that I think is important.... it's the TOURING part of "pro touring"....

So when I look at it that way - the car would need WIPERS - A/C - Radio - and heater.... because if you want to TOUR and do Power TOUR - you might need all those things - or some of those things to be COMFORTABLE.

Comfort being an entirely different "debate".

I wanted to add too -- that my comments somewhat come from a few years spent doing NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society). That entire process is about "VALIDATION"... The judging has everything to do with validating that your car meets the specs. It's a tough competition - because it directly relates to your wallet size. If you want MAXIMUM points - then you need NOS wheels (10 grand) and NOS tires (6 grand) and you need NOS coils (300 bucks)....

WHAT THE OUSCI did -- was like NCRS used to do -- it was validation that your car could actually perform as advertised. It also could be used (El Toro falls into this as well) to give a guy a "list" of what needs to be improved. The way I used judging sheets from a national NCRS meet. I went home and worked on all the deducted points. Since there are multiple 'tests' of the cars systems, you end up with a list of what COULD be better. Todd - Steve - Dave/Mary - are shining examples of those "A type" people that use that info and go home and improve their cars and sort out the weakness. But to me - here's where there is a MAJOR difference..... nothing wrong with this difference - I'm just stating the obvious (I think).... STEVE and POZZIS want to WIN.... and will do what is required to WIN - Second place is not an option. Todd (Vegas) and or Matt - might want to win - but are unwilling to compromise their overall satisfaction with their cars. By this I mean - Matt might be unwilling to damage his paint in the interest of all out charge in the cones... But he's happy as a clam to participate - and he should be proud of his performance.

So -- in this vain -- I think we all agreed that the COBRA probably didn't really fit the description of a "pro touring" car... I loved it - but I wouldn't like it on a Friday afternoon on an LA freeway... But I'd love to drive Todds or Matts... or Bad Penny.

[Vegas69]

I'm flattered to be mentioned in the same sentence as two Stielow builds. I'll rack that one up to us being buddies. I'd have to give myself a few deductions. Carburetor, no wipers, and dumps. All three are easily fixable. It's easier to track a carbed car and it rains 5 times a year around here. The dumps are Frank Serafines fault. :rofl:

Jackass is the bullseye right now in Pro-Touring. My only gripe would be the full roll cage and the lack of a great stereo. If you look at Stielows new project, it lacks the cage in the driver and passenger compartment. ;)

[GregWeld]

I guess EFI or Carbs etc don't apply to "my" definition of what is or isn't a PT car. The wiper thing might knock you out... can't really "tour" without them and up here it'd get you a ticket (required equipment). If fact - it would fail a safety test so wouldn't get a license plate either! :rofl:

Now, as for that GEICO version of a fuel feeder.....:rofl:

[Steve1968LS2]

I guess EFI or Carbs etc don't apply to "my" definition of what is or isn't a PT car. The wiper thing might knock you out... can't really "tour" without them and up here it'd get you a ticket (required equipment). If fact - it would fail a safety test so wouldn't get a license plate either! :rofl:

Now, as for that GEICO version of a fuel feeder.....:rofl:

You can tour where I live without them.. lol

To be honest, if Penny didn't come without wipers I would have kept them.. but they were gone so I didn't bother putting them back.

People "toured" before heaters and AC so I don't see that as a detriment.. then again, if I lived in Florida I would most likely have a different opinion. ;)

What's a "safety inspection"??? lol

[boynton6spd]

full tube chasis, 572 bbc, 6spd man, marquez type interior, all creature comforts...
my builder would be troy trempanier:thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

full tube chasis, 572 bbc, 6spd man, marquez type interior, all creature comforts...
my builder would be troy trempanier:thumbsup:


He might not take your money after you get his name wrong. :lol:

[GregWeld]

You can tour where I live without them.. lol

To be honest, if Penny didn't come without wipers I would have kept them.. but they were gone so I didn't bother putting them back.

People "toured" before heaters and AC so I don't see that as a detriment.. then again, if I lived in Florida I would most likely have a different opinion. ;)

What's a "safety inspection"??? lol

Steve... you're funny!

When I'm saying "touring" --- I'm not talking about just touring in the area you live in. I mean Bill Howell touring - and or Power Tour(ing). Cruising is what I'd call doing a day trip around where you live... Touring is what I'd call going out of state - or to a different region etc. And that's why they make RainX !! :rofl:

I drove a 13K brand new Ford Focus the other day (Sister in law looking) and even that little POS had A/C as a basic! But I totally agree that a car doesn't need it... Heat either.

Cages, to me, are whatever the owner wants... I actually like the looks of them if done right... and they protect and stiffen the chassis and can be built tasteful and not "too" intrusive. I even like the harnesses... they kind of scream "I'm all business"...

And then here we go again - right? What defines the "ultimate" PT car... where to start and stop. Performance over all else? Comfort levels? Paint? Fit and Finish? G's it can pull... in all directions...

I would add -- "how much to get it ready to race vs drive long distance (500 miles)"? Do you have to change anything to be competitive, like tires etc. (big description) in these events. I NOTE that the OUSCI and RTTC and RTTH do NOT OFFER DRAG RACING... but a good test of overall performance (hooking up and gettin' 'er down) is the Stoptech test.... You've got to go like stink quickly - and then haul it down - quickly... so it's a little of both and you have to do both well to be near the top.

A test like that - is where Pozzi is not going to do as well as some other cars - due to a lack of power.... and that to me is kinda like the drag race test... you have to have some real muscle to get 'er done in this test... and your suspension has to be able to perform here as well.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve... you're funny!

When I'm saying "touring" --- I'm not talking about just touring in the area you live in. I mean Bill Howell touring - and or Power Tour(ing). Cruising is what I'd call doing a day trip around where you live... Touring is what I'd call going out of state - or to a different region etc. And that's why they make RainX !! :rofl:

I drove a 13K brand new Ford Focus the other day (Sister in law looking) and even that little POS had A/C as a basic! But I totally agree that a car doesn't need it... Heat either.

Cages, to me, are whatever the owner wants... I actually like the looks of them if done right... and they protect and stiffen the chassis and can be built tasteful and not "too" intrusive. I even like the harnesses... they kind of scream "I'm all business"...

And then here we go again - right? What defines the "ultimate" PT car... where to start and stop. Performance over all else? Comfort levels? Paint? Fit and Finish? G's it can pull... in all directions...

I would add -- "how much to get it ready to race vs drive long distance (500 miles)"? Do you have to change anything to be competitive, like tires etc. (big description) in these events. I NOTE that the OUSCI and RTTC and RTTH do NOT OFFER DRAG RACING... but a good test of overall performance (hooking up and gettin' 'er down) is the Stoptech test.... You've got to go like stink quickly - and then haul it down - quickly... so it's a little of both and you have to do both well to be near the top.

A test like that - is where Pozzi is not going to do as well as some other cars - due to a lack of power.... and that to me is kinda like the drag race test... you have to have some real muscle to get 'er done in this test... and your suspension has to be able to perform here as well.

Except the Speed-Stop deal was as much about luck as anything.. given that they only got three tries. This is evidenced in how Shipka placed 2nd and Pozzi placed 5th in the same car.

As for driving.. drove Penny to Vegas for Optima.. on the same R888s I raced on.. drove the 90+ miles, in the pouring rain, at the RTTH dragon cruise.. The car can drive anywhere anyone's car can drive. Although I will say my car isn't optimized for cruising across county in terms of creature comforts, but it's got dynamat, jute, carpet, full interior and tunes.. I imagine that I would be hating life driving through a rainy Florida in August though. lol

I want my cars to be a bit "rough".. after all if I wanted to haul ass and be swaddled in cushy comfort I would have got a ZR1 'Vette.. for less money. :lol:

Now let's get back on topic here..

If money were no object I would find a way to graft an old Camaro body onto a ZR1 Corvette chassis... then use tons of CF and alum on the body.. voila!

[Matt@BOS]

Oh man Steve, you're really defending Penny. I'd say "madly in love" would be an understatement if anything. Does your wife receive as much attention as Penny? Wait, please don't answer that unless you know the "right answer" :lol:

Also, because you're planning on shooting my car next week, let me amend my last comment about Penny, it's perfect in every way. Seriously though, I'd like to see how comfortable it is on a long drive after contorting one's self to fit inside. I imagine it's not too bad. Now get'r done I want a nice, casual ride around the Costa Mesa fairgrounds. You'll be able to find me detailing my show-tourer.

Matt

[Steve1968LS2]

Oh man Steve, you're really defending Penny. I'd say "madly in love" would be an understatement if anything. Does your wife receive as much attention as Penny? Wait, please don't answer that unless you know the "right answer" :lol:

Also, because you're planning on shooting my car next week, let me amend my last comment about Penny, it's perfect in every way. Seriously though, I'd like to see how comfortable it is on a long drive after contorting one's self to fit inside. I imagine it's not too bad. Now get'r done I want a nice, casual ride around the Costa Mesa fairgrounds. You'll be able to find me detailing my show-tourer.

Matt

Not defending.. just explaing since it was made to sound like my car was some sort of stripped down race car :)

I have no problem getting in.. the pain is when you need to work on the interior.. and it's very comfy once in..

And who are ya kiddin' Matt.. you don't detail your own car! :rofl:

[GregWeld]

@Matt -- I was giving your car compliments -- it's beautiful...

@Steve - Wasn't making your car out to be a race car - but just bordering maybe on that far end of Pro TOURING -- as in lacking some creature comforts that make it the ULTIMATE pro tourer.. please don't take offense... I wear my BP shirts every other day.

My use of your and Matts cars -- were RELATIVE one to the other - and using a Vegas/Jackass version as in the middle... Not saying yours is a race car - but it's certainly leaning more to race VERSUS Matts...

LOVE YOUR IDEA of a Camaro body wrapped around a ZR1.... isn't that kinda what Jackass is already?

[Steve1968LS2]

@Matt -- I was giving your car compliments -- it's beautiful...

@Steve - Wasn't making your car out to be a race car - but just bordering maybe on that far end of Pro TOURING -- as in lacking some creature comforts that make it the ULTIMATE pro tourer.. please don't take offense... I wear my BP shirts every other day.

My use of your and Matts cars -- were RELATIVE one to the other - and using a Vegas/Jackass version as in the middle... Not saying yours is a race car - but it's certainly leaning more to race VERSUS Matts...

LOVE YOUR IDEA of a Camaro body wrapped around a ZR1.... isn't that kinda what Jackass is already?

lol.. no worries here.. I know what you meant :)

And I would agree that my car is at the farther end of the spectrum.. but not nearly as far as Big Red..

And not really on Jackass.. it took the engine/brakes and a similar trans.. Taking a whole ZR1 would give you ALL of the ZR1 including IRS, weight distribution, ABS, yada yada yada.. I can see it now.. project ZR69..

[nvr2fst]

lol.. no worries here.. I know what you meant :)

And I would agree that my car is at the farther end of the spectrum.. but not nearly as far as Big Red..

And not really on Jackass.. it took the engine/brakes and a similar trans.. Taking a whole ZR1 would give you ALL of the ZR1 including IRS, weight distribution, ABS, yada yada yada.. I can see it now.. project ZR69..

I may have to steal that name Steve (ZR69)

[Steve1968LS2]

I may have to steal that name Steve (ZR69)

No problem.. the cost is a beer sometime.. lol

I have way more project names and ideas then I have time to build...

[legend]

zr69, that's inspiring already

I live in Great Britain, no wipers would make the car unusable 300+days a year:P

EVO (http://www.evo.co.uk/) magazine do some great articles where they take supercars etc and drive across europe, that really appeals to me, in building something that would hang with the zondas and lambos over a long distance.

oddly they took a new v8 m3 with them as a camera car and it got worse mpg over the journey than the Pagani Zonda

I trained as a car designer, and have loads of ideas, I'll try and 'shop something up with a load of new ways of looking at things.

Mr Payback, I totally understand your points, after building a few dual use cars myself, that the requirements of racing ruin road cars and vise versa,

but the whole spectacle of american muscle on european roads is awesome, i want an R/T or camaro that can haul ass from Uk to the south of france for a holiday but run the 'ring (http://www.nuerburgring.de/en.html) and Spa (http://www.spa-francorchamps.be/en07/home/index.php) circuits on the way

jaguar enthusiasts seem to be quite well catered for

mk2 jag with blown 4.2 (http://www.jdclassics.co.uk/car/49)
XKE speedster (http://www.jaguarspeedster.com/)

[nvr2fst]

No problem.. the cost is a beer sometime.. lol

I have way more project names and ideas then I have time to build...


I here ya on project name ideas. There in my head all day long.

[Lenie]

It's already been built, if money wasn't an issue I'd just buy it seller willing? You are a lucky man Doug. Absolutely love your car.


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t47/EV427/BJ10.jpg

[Ron in SoCal]

This whole conversation is starting to crack me up! PT is what you want it to be; it's your $$$, it's your design, it's your car. That's what makes this hobby f'n awesome...the journey, not the destination, right? Can you imagine seeing someone reading about a feature car in Camaro Perfromers and banging on it cause it wasn't built right or 'ultimate'? I love Penny, I love Matt's car and I e-m Todd for advice. I'm not building my car to live up to someone else's standard - just my own. And I'm very cool with that (thank god it's not a 'mullet' car). In the end, if you see it and like it, great. If not, no prob. Go enjoy someone else's.

You're all right about what PT/Ultimate is. Now get those cars on the road so we can compete against our own standard and maybe kick a couple of tenths off our time. I'm glad the world's full of all the killer cars mentioned in this thread. Gives me something to shoot for!

Ron

[Vegas69]

Ron, I agree that the beauty of our hobby is floating our own boat. I rambled on for a few paragraphs and didn't really get to the point.

You really don't know what you've built until you turn the key and hit the open road. We are basically mildly engineering our own cars. Everyone has expectation of what they want out of their car. I'm trying to remind some of you that what you think your building and the end result may very well be different. There are so many decisions that are made building these things from scratch that are easily the wrong decision. The sorting of a car is just as crucial as the build. That's where many cars hit the road block. You have to work out the bugs and change some things to your liking. You also have to change things to make them more reliable. I've done things where I felt it was a masterpiece and it didn't work out. I'm guessing GM didn't build the first C6 vette and take it out for the first drive and it was done. This is no different. I'm happy to say I'm almost to the end of that long road and I'm not ready to start over on my behalf at least. If things go the way they should in the next 30 days. I may be taking on a project or two a year just for the love of the game and fun money.

[Matt@BOS]

Not defending.. just explaing since it was made to sound like my car was some sort of stripped down race car :)

I have no problem getting in.. the pain is when you need to work on the interior.. and it's very comfy once in..

And who are ya kiddin' Matt.. you don't detail your own car! :rofl:

Hey, I take offense to that last comment. Just because I get an invoice with hours for car detailing on it, doesn't mean I didn't clean it, its just that they've taken to billing me for standing around the shop and wasting their time while I detail. :lol:

Matt

[GregWeld]

Ron --

That's what I said after reading all the posts -- I was laughing to myself... thinking exactly what you said... and it is kind of what I was eluding too.. when I said Matt may want to run his car without cone rash - and Steve wants to win. Each to their own - and it's all great!

Ditto this argument - which goes on all the time - pro built vs home built etc - it's whatever you decide you want to do. Period.

The original post was "build the ultimate" -- no budget. Even that means something different to everyone.

I don't think this puzzle ever gets solved.

[Ron in SoCal]

Ron, I agree that the beauty of our hobby is floating our own boat. I rambled on for a few paragraphs and didn't really get to the point.

You really don't know what you've built until you turn the key and hit the open road. We are basically mildly engineering our own cars. Everyone has expectation of what they want out of their car. I'm trying to remind some of you that what you think your building and the end result may very well be different. There are so many decisions that are made building these things from scratch that are easily the wrong decision. The sorting of a car is just as crucial as the build. That's where many cars hit the road block. You have to work out the bugs and change some things to your liking. You also have to change things to make them more reliable. I've done things where I felt it was a masterpiece and it didn't work out. I'm guessing GM didn't build the first C6 vette and take it out for the first drive and it was done. This is no different. I'm happy to say I'm almost to the end of that long road and I'm not ready to start over on my behalf at least. If things go the way they should in the next 30 days. I may be taking on a project or two a year just for the love of the game and fun money.

I hear you Todd. First jet boat motor I built (20 years ago) put out more HP than the jet could handle. RPM's went up, speedo stayed the same! First big inch Harley rattled my back teeth and blew the clutch 150 miles into the shakedown run. My 1000 hp blower motor in my boat up in storage near you has blown 5 outdrives (don't think I'm not the running joke in that ciricle of friends). This car, this site hopefully will help me mitigate some engineering R&D. Guys like you that document this stuff pave the way. Still, I'm sure the shakedown will take a year or more.

Thanks for your help Bro and good luck on the builds...

[Ron in SoCal]

Ron, I agree that the beauty of our hobby is floating our own boat. I rambled on for a few paragraphs and didn't really get to the point.

Todd - you rambled? :lol:

[Steve1968LS2]

Ron, I agree that the beauty of our hobby is floating our own boat. I rambled on for a few paragraphs and didn't really get to the point.

You really don't know what you've built until you turn the key and hit the open road. We are basically mildly engineering our own cars. Everyone has expectation of what they want out of their car. I'm trying to remind some of you that what you think your building and the end result may very well be different. There are so many decisions that are made building these things from scratch that are easily the wrong decision. The sorting of a car is just as crucial as the build. That's where many cars hit the road block. You have to work out the bugs and change some things to your liking. You also have to change things to make them more reliable. I've done things where I felt it was a masterpiece and it didn't work out. I'm guessing GM didn't build the first C6 vette and take it out for the first drive and it was done. This is no different. I'm happy to say I'm almost to the end of that long road and I'm not ready to start over on my behalf at least. If things go the way they should in the next 30 days. I may be taking on a project or two a year just for the love of the game and fun money.

Hence why I'm just now finishing version 3.0 of my car.. lol

To be honest the difference between my car and a slower one is generally the amount of work put into the car AFTER the initial build.. the sorting out is almost equal to the actual build in terms of what the car can do.

[monza]

Hence why I'm just now finishing version 3.0 of my car.. lol

To be honest the difference between my car and a slower one is generally the amount of work put into the car AFTER the initial build.. the sorting out is almost equal to the actual build in terms of what the car can do.

That's pretty true, if a person is driving them hard and close to the limits, any car will be a work in progress. Just like the ultimate PT build, you'd design it and during the build before your done something else would change the plan. Look at Project Unfair- new ideas pop up all the time, cars evolve that car will never be done :_paranoid . Sure it'll be driving but with those two as long as they own it, it'll always be evolving, which is a great thing.

Only a trailer queen would be able to say 'there that's it- it's Done'. Todd says he wouldn't change a thing, yet he's on version 2.0. phillym5 was trying to say he wouldn't change (I think) he's version 1.5 and just getting started. I wouldn't change a thing, I'm on version 2.3 ....... that's a quick sampling from a few contributors to just this thread. Every body here is really never done, if they are it is only until the budget allows more. Making your car just a little more ultimate the way you want it, thats the game we all play.:captain:

[Vegas69]

Hence why I'm just now finishing version 3.0 of my car.. lol

To be honest the difference between my car and a slower one is generally the amount of work put into the car AFTER the initial build.. the sorting out is almost equal to the actual build in terms of what the car can do.

We can see eye to eye because we've both been through all the issues and reaped the benefits of the hard work. I'm glad James started posting all his hurdles for everybody to see as well. I think it's important to be honest. The difference between a weekend cruiser(Show Tourer) and a fast reliable road racer are two different worlds. As I've mentioned in the past, you have to take it to the next level due to having two drivers at the event. I've got to worry about 20 minutes where you need to think about 40-45. That brings in a larger oil cooler, power steering cooler, tranny cooler, rear end cooler, serious race pads, shock resorvoirs, :rofl:

When I said I wouldn't change anything, I mean now! I wouldn't want anybody to have to endure reading through my whole thread but I've redone more than a few things. Now, some of the decisions would be easier due to new options. At this point all I really need to do is charge the A/C, put in a cigarette lighter, and finally whip my brake pad knockback. Shoot, that's a weekend or two. I'm taking mine out for a cruise tonight!

[phillym5]

:_paranoid ........ whats going on in here??...... did we figure out "Pro Touring" yet???? :lol:
:lateral:

[GregWeld]

Josh --

We're just waitin' on you buddy!

This is a good thread -- and we're all having fun... just hashing out the whole thing a few points at a time.:D

[deuce_454]

The ultimate pro touring car for me world propably be somthing i could tour in... drive 12 hours down to nurburgring nordschliefe do 20 laps under eight minutes each and drive 12 hours back... (with luggage and passengers)

it would do 10's in the quarter, pull 1+ gs and do over 200 mph. so we are talking about a supercar in an 60-70'ies body.. but i can think of 10 cars right of the bat id considder as candidates..

i think a touring car has back seats..
so corvettes and such are out

but on my list are cars like:
63 pontiac lemans
66 nova
detomaso mangusta
72 & 78 firebird TA
69 mustang
66 fairlane
68 baracuda
67 & 68 Camaro
66 impala
78 malibu

all of the above on a full frame, 3 link/watts or transaxle IRS , c6 based front all aluminum big cube BBC with stack injection or forced induction, discrete bodymods.. chaneled over frame so rockers are 4-5 inches over pavement, and wheelsizes and brakes within in GT1 or lemans lmp1 rules / norm.

i think powersteering, aircondition, power brakes and some form of stereo/navigation is a must in a touring car.. i would propably insist on some form of cage

not too fancy a paint job, and retain wipers, horn, headlights, doorhandles etc...

all in all, a close to stock exterior, perhaps wheelarches or flares done tastefully... and an enginecompartment that looks like a racecar and not a tuner mercedes...

[mfain]

Deuce,

Hey -- careful on the Corvette backseat touring stuff. LOL I've been "touring" in Corvettes for a long time -- hell, in my youth I even drove an L88, tunnel-rammed 62 from West Texas to Presque Isle Maine and back to visit inlaws (6 mpg, premium-only, no power, no air, no problem). My "is it ever going to get finished" project has provisions for a removable trailer hitch (through tiny slits in the CF diffusor -- sure beats luggage and a spare in your lap) and at one time it even had brackets on the roll cage for a baby seat in the middle with a five point harness (the kids grew up and now the grandkids are too big). Maybe not pure by "whatever" definition of PT you use, but touring none the less. By the way, I don't disagree that a real PT car should have all of your above-mentioned features. Some of us are just fringe players that strayed a little too far right.

Pappy

[DFRESH]

I would keep building mine in the direction it's going---eventually get the subframe, do the mini tub, etc---if money were no object---along with time not being an issue either, I would just speed up the process. I would also purchase another 3 of them to have every paint color I really like. I think what PT would be for me would be different than others---I want the comforts of a very nice interior, and the performance of a race car--where I draw that line will be different than others i'm sure---I have a race car (drag) and it certainly lacks interior comforts, however it makes up for it in HP. I'll probably end up with more power than I need to have in my PT car, and it will be a waste, but that's what I like. 5 years from now, i'll probably be changing it again. What's great today will evolve---if that's not the case then why do half the people build these cars and a couple years later sell them? Usually to do another one. PT will keep evolving with the latest and greatest--we will evolve with it--some slower and some like the big boys here will be able to constantly change to keep up with it. I'll always want more, but for me, that's the fun part--acquiring it piece by piece--I love having something to look forward too.

Doug

[Muscle Car PWR]

55 Chevy 210 post
full Art Morrison Chassis
Coil-Over suspension
18's and 20's
6-speed
Supercharged LS
Colors=I have so many two tones i like it would be tough
Vintage Air
two benches

A '55 Gasser as well

[lil427z]

It's sitting in my garage....:unibrow: I wouldn't change anything.

well said .
rick k:thumbsup:

[fleetus macmullitz]

55 Chevy 210 post
full Art Morrison Chassis
Coil-Over suspension
18's and 20's
6-speed
Supercharged LS
Colors=I have so many two tones i like it would be tough
Vintage Air
two benches

A '55 Gasser as well

I like your list.

Next project here: take some styling cues from a '55 gasser and combine it with pro-touring functionality.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/wnyjazz/JJ%2055%20part%20deux/StackedChevythurs1230040810.jpg

[GregWeld]

55 Chevy 210 post
full Art Morrison Chassis
Coil-Over suspension
18's and 20's
6-speed
Supercharged LS
Colors=I have so many two tones i like it would be tough
Vintage Air
two benches

A '55 Gasser as well


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Have that exact car (minus supercharger but with LS2) in the "shed" as we speak! What a great driving car! Sorry - it's all Black... but does have the 210 upholstery pattern - albeit - in custom fabrics. Benches with a Tremec 6 speed...

[legend]

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1364/chargermod.jpg

quick bit of dreaming and photoshop trickery

Charger R/T with shortened aero front, beefier rear quarters and raked screen, and suicide rear doors

[CRCRFT78]

1978 Malibu
Orignal Pastel Blue w/ Silver Vinyl Top
The new E-rod engine package (thank you California SMOG) & a 6spd
Minitubbed sitting low on some 18/19s & a suspension built for all of the above mentioned. A little driving, some auto-x or road racing. And a nice Sunday drive with my daughters. Now if DSE, Speedtech, AME or one of the other players in the game would show the g-bodies some love in the suspension department I would be set.

[Bryce]

A full tube chassis with, not square tube stuff but nice looking round tube. Perfect geometry front suspension.
3-link rear with watts fully adjustable multipurpose setup.
rack and pinion steering.
discs on all four corners
17s with widest possible tires.
light weight car, around 2700lbs
reliable small block engine with efi around 400hp
5 speed manual.


so basically a race car for the street. and it needs to be multipurpose. road course, autocross and drag. Plus it needs to show nice and be acle to cruise with out issues.

[deuce_454]

1978 Malibu
Orignal Pastel Blue w/ Silver Vinyl Top
The new E-rod engine package (thank you California SMOG) & a 6spd
Minitubbed sitting low on some 18/19s & a suspension built for all of the above mentioned. A little driving, some auto-x or road racing. And a nice Sunday drive with my daughters. Now if DSE, Speedtech, AME or one of the other players in the game would show the g-bodies some love in the suspension department I would be set.

:thumbsup:

im more than happy with what SC&C has done for my handling... but i guess a call to AME for a full 3 link frame with c6 front is the love you are looking for...

[ccracin]

Each answer in this thread is exactly correct, For that person! Keep the ideas coming! :lateral:

[Bow Tie 67]

One that is done

[CRCRFT78]

How dare I forget about Mark at SC&C. I definately wouldn't mind a complete G-boby setup from him under my Malibu.

[Jar]

I would love to see a Porsche 550 Spyder body on a current 997 Turbo chassis and drivetrain.

In reality though, if I could have it all car-wise, I would just want to finish my low budget (<$50,000) Camaro build now, instead of having to spread it out over the next 30 years as money comes in, I don't want much, just a car I can have fun driving.

[preston]

Boy does this thread speak to me. From my first project to my current project I have never been happy with the NVH and driveability of my creations. On a sunny afternoon, windows down, finding a few spots to hit it while cruising around they are the best - but cold foggy morning with traffic trying to drive it to work for "fun", frankly, they kind of sucked. Dyanamat, quiet exhausts, FI, poly rod ends instead of hard rod ends, hell they still always feel very rough. Of course my daily driver is a '92 Cadillac with top to bottom dynamatting and thousands of dollars of stereo equipment so maybe they pale in comparison. But whenever I think of taking my hot car somewhere I think, "Or, I could not have the stress and ride in roomy leather clad climate conditioned comfort to audiophile quality sounds in total anonymity".

Anyway, having built 3 tube chassis cars now and spent hours of time dreaming of the "ultimate street muscle road race car" I have to say that the only thing that makes sense is channeling something over a C5/C6/Z06 frame and drivetrain. The advantages of a custom tube frame are really only for body fitment at this point, and you'll never beat the weight distribution of the rear transaxle not to mention IRS. So that thought has kind of taken the winds out of my "pro touring" sails. Because at that point, other than the fact that they're as common as belly buttons, why not just gain the aero and integration advantages of driving a vette in the first place ?
Its too late for me I spent all my money building my own cars.

A lot of times I wished I'd just used my shifter kart for track thrills, and built more of a true (high power) slo-tour car with a real back seat and no 7" wide fender flares !

Always wanted to do a low to the ground full frame RWD '68 El Dorado, in black of course.

My favorite pro-tour car is the G-force Cuda, but I don't think there is anything "tour" about that car, the exhaust must be hellaciously loud, fuel mileage truly non-existent, and the pedal placement/floor pan looks like a horrendous compromise. But I just lose all ability to speak or think when I see it or review its spec sheet.

Just some thoughts from another been there done that burnt out builder.

[legend]

some true true words in that post:)

[Doug Cooper]

Originally posted by preston...My favorite pro-tour car is the G-force Cuda, but I don't think there is anything "tour" about that car, the exhaust must be hellaciously loud, fuel mileage truly non-existent, and the pedal placement/floor pan looks like a horrendous compromise. But I just lose all ability to speak or think when I see it or review its spec sheet.

Just some thoughts from another been there done that burnt out builder.




as far as exhaust note...well its loud, it's a hot rod and fuel mileage...well its a 900hp 572 cubic inch HEMI...what kind of mileage do you want?

But pedal placement...how's this?.... I had Alan cnc machine new arms for the tilton set up to relocate the pedals!

[preston]

They look good in the picture. I was basing my opinion on the original build photos where the exhaust forced an enormous hump right where the right foot should go. In your photo it looks like the brake pedal is more or less underneath the column where it should go and the gas looks good too, but again hard to really judge from here. In the construction photos it looked really compromised, raised floor, big exhaust hump. If it works for you then great.

Ever weighed that car for real ?

[Doug Cooper]

They look good in the picture. I was basing my opinion on the original build photos where the exhaust forced an enormous hump right where the right foot should go. In your photo it looks like the brake pedal is more or less underneath the column where it should go and the gas looks good too, but again hard to really judge from here. In the construction photos it looked really compromised, raised floor, big exhaust hump. If it works for you then great.

Ever weighed that car for real ?


The pedals are set up with the same spacing as a porsche turbo, NOW! the hump in the floor board is still there... that's the turn of the exhaust into the tunnel so nothing hangs below the floor board... for Alan to get the car as low as it is [48'' to the top of the roof] and still have 5 to 6 inches of ground clearance there has to be some compromises made in some areas.

No, I've never weighed it...everything is there that an original Hemi cuda had plus 6 speed trans axle, cage, a/c pwr windows, power steering, N2O, on board fire system, big wheels and tires, dynamat, etc... but it does have an aluminum block and heads and there is a bunch of carbon fiber...

[Payton King]

One of my all time favorites. Would love to see it at Motor State or RTTH this year.

[preston]

If you ever weigh it let us know. If its 4 corners so much the better.

I hear you on the exhaust. My solution was to run it inside fabricated rockers down the side of the car. Works so well I'm not sure why it isn't done more often. The floor is 4.5" off the ground.

[dirtybird]

Every one may have their on idea of the ultimate pro touring vehicle. To me thats the beauty of our sport. I really don't care as long as the car is driven. NO TRAILERS !!!!! GROUND POUNDER ONLY !!!!!!!!

[mike343sharpstk]

I would build my car.. same suspension, engine, trans, rear..

I would swap the shocks to Penske double adjustables.. simply the best out there if money isn't an option. I would do a few body mods.. not many though since I like the Camaro's classic lines.

BUT.. with a new cage system (using cromol).. more CF and more aluminum to get the weight down. I would also rebuild the dash to get rid of all my gauges except the STACK unit.. again, for weight savings. I have no desire for ABS, tracktion control, or other "complications"

I would rather have less weight than more power any day..

In a past life I roadraced motorcycles, weight (or lack of it) is a very big part of going around corners quickly.
Based on that experience my ultimate car would be very, very light.
Curious; How light could a pony car get with a minimal (6-point) chrome moly cage, some glass or carbon body parts and mostly aluminum drive train?
Imagine a 2,500 lb pony car with 500 HP at the rear wheels. Aside from being very quick it would be very easy on driveline parts and therefore very reliable:thumbsup:

[nvr2fst]

The pedals are set up with the same spacing as a porsche turbo, NOW! the hump in the floor board is still there... that's the turn of the exhaust into the tunnel so nothing hangs below the floor board... for Alan to get the car as low as it is [48'' to the top of the roof] and still have 5 to 6 inches of ground clearance there has to be some compromises made in some areas.

No, I've never weighed it...everything is there that an original Hemi cuda had plus 6 speed trans axle, cage, a/c pwr windows, power steering, N2O, on board fire system, big wheels and tires, dynamat, etc... but it does have an aluminum block and heads and there is a bunch of carbon fiber...

Doug, nice to see this is added to your collection, truly a fine piece of machinery. My question is what actual pieces are carbon in lieu of steel/aluminum and I thought the car was at 49 to the roof top (I Maybe wrong) New pedal setup is definitely for the better on driving comfort, nice touch. Most likely the more you dive it the more you will change things to fit your driving styles. As they say there never complete. :thumbsup:

[nvr2fst]

Boy does this thread speak to me. From my first project to my current project I have never been happy with the NVH and driveability of my creations. On a sunny afternoon, windows down, finding a few spots to hit it while cruising around they are the best - but cold foggy morning with traffic trying to drive it to work for "fun", frankly, they kind of sucked. Dyanamat, quiet exhausts, FI, poly rod ends instead of hard rod ends, hell they still always feel very rough. Of course my daily driver is a '92 Cadillac with top to bottom dynamatting and thousands of dollars of stereo equipment so maybe they pale in comparison. But whenever I think of taking my hot car somewhere I think, "Or, I could not have the stress and ride in roomy leather clad climate conditioned comfort to audiophile quality sounds in total anonymity".

Anyway, having built 3 tube chassis cars now and spent hours of time dreaming of the "ultimate street muscle road race car" I have to say that the only thing that makes sense is channeling something over a C5/C6/Z06 frame and drivetrain. The advantages of a custom tube frame are really only for body fitment at this point, and you'll never beat the weight distribution of the rear transaxle not to mention IRS. So that thought has kind of taken the winds out of my "pro touring" sails. Because at that point, other than the fact that they're as common as belly buttons, why not just gain the aero and integration advantages of driving a vette in the first place ?
Its too late for me I spent all my money building my own cars.

A lot of times I wished I'd just used my shifter kart for track thrills, and built more of a true (high power) slo-tour car with a real back seat and no 7" wide fender flares !

Always wanted to do a low to the ground full frame RWD '68 El Dorado, in black of course.

My favorite pro-tour car is the G-force Cuda, but I don't think there is anything "tour" about that car, the exhaust must be hellaciously loud, fuel mileage truly non-existent, and the pedal placement/floor pan looks like a horrendous compromise. But I just lose all ability to speak or think when I see it or review its spec sheet.

Just some thoughts from another been there done that burnt out builder.

Heres a 70 1/2 TA grafted unto a complete stock 2007 corvette chassis, engine, and pretty much all the accessories right down to the air bags. Seen this creation coming together but his site lacks the build outline.

http://www.salvaggioautodesign.com/
Click on creations.

[legend]

anyone got any more info on the salvaggio R/T?

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/1330

[MarkM66]

anyone got any more info on the salvaggio R/T?

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/1330

Here's some;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280504745450&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Doug Cooper]

Doug, nice to see this is added to your collection, truly a fine piece of machinery. My question is what actual pieces are carbon in lieu of steel/aluminum and I thought the car was at 49 to the roof top (I Maybe wrong) New pedal setup is definitely for the better on driving comfort, nice touch. Most likely the more you dive it the more you will change things to fit your driving styles. As they say there never complete. :thumbsup:

the entire nose is carbon fiber... 49 48 47? who cares LOL... Its low!

[legend]

Here's some;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280504745450&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Thanks Mark, looks like a 70s jaguar based IRS in there, love the bodywork

[nvr2fst]

Thanks Mark, looks like a 70s jaguar based IRS in there, love the bodywork

Its the stock based Heidts superide IRS.
Like the idea of Dave Salvaggio shortening the length of the car. But I feel the car sits too high. The Charger being built at the Roadster Shop will be the one to set the bar on all Chargers.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Heres a 70 1/2 TA grafted unto a complete stock 2007 corvette chassis, engine, and pretty much all the accessories right down to the air bags. Seen this creation coming together but his site lacks the build outline.

http://www.salvaggioautodesign.com/
Click on creations.

Very cool, certainly would be interesting to see build pics and feedback on how well it performs on the street and/or track.

[nvr2fst]

Very cool, certainly would be interesting to see build pics and feedback on how well it performs on the street and/or track.

I dont think you'll find build photos. Dave is pretty low key on public build postings. But Im sure the customer has 100s. This car may have gone to a client overseas.

[legend]

the fixed length driveshaft as top link is in principle the old XJ6 setup, works ok, but camber control is poor, compared to a full double wishbone setup and they used to struggle when racing these setups.

seems odd to go to all the bother to install a less than ideal setup as an upgrade, whereas a C6 rear end Should handle better