? on power window install

[brans72]

I was wondering if I want to install power windows on a non powe window car should I do before or after painting car? I am leaning toward Electric Life but looking a budget and time frame for buying/installing. Brandon

[XcYZ]

I installed my Electric Life stuff after the car was painted. It was cake... but they sure are wimpy. If I could have run manual windows, I would have, but the cranks wouldn't clear the Marquez door panels.

[GregWeld]

It's no problem installing power windows after paint.

I've done it a couple of times - and there's nothing with the paint on the exterior -- EXCEPT the door looms... but even then - you can run the loom without messing up the paint. It's just easier of course - to have the holes for the looms done with the door off the car.

[skatinjay27]

I installed my Electric Life stuff after the car was painted. It was cake... but they sure are wimpy. If I could have run manual windows, I would have, but the cranks wouldn't clear the Marquez door panels.damn scott that scares me to try them for my car since the 2nd gen windows are quite larger... is there any other companys with better motors out there?

[brans72]

You trying to get me to think twice Scott? I have stock manual window still in the garage. I figured power would be nice but maybe we should poll this ? Brandon

[GregWeld]

I'd be checking the grounds.. they should NOT be "wimpy".

I have power windows in 3 different hot rods -- and they work GREAT.

:cheers:

[camcojb]

I removed the power windows in my Chevelle for the same reason Scott mentioned. If you open the door they were fine to roll up, but with the door shut the motors are set to stop way before they compress the rubber glass seals at the top and sides............. (speaking of the built in torque limits of the motors, not the actual height the window goes which is adjustable).

You know how on these older cars with manual window cranks you need to roll the window up into the rubber seal and give it just a little "oommph"..... the electric life units won't do that, as soon as they meet "X" amount of resistance the motors stop. If that was adjustable you could probably solve the issue. I know Scott just opens his door when the window is going all the way up, but to be correct you shouldn't have to do that. Had the same issue with the rear 1/4 windows, as they rub the rubber channel on the top and rear as they go up. If I sprayed Windex on the rubber the windows would go all the way up................ as soon as it dried again they would not go to the top. I removed and sold mine, went back to manual.

Jody

[GregWeld]

Shoulda just used some rubber seal dressing.... even a bit of Armorall...
:rofl:

It's like putting new seals on the doors etc.... I always rub them with a bit of vaseline - and shut the door / trunk etc - the vaseline allows the rubber to move against the paint - until it takes a set. And it cleans off. I'm not talking about gooping it on there like a boxers face.... either.

[HRBS]

x2 on the wimpiness.
We installed an EL set in the 69 Mustang vert project and they are very weak. You can actually hear the motors strain.
But to answer your original question, if you are going to install them, do it after paint. The window felts can not be installed untill after paint if you want a clean paint job and if the glass is installed without those you risk shattering the glass during transit. The installation is very easy and you wont have a problem doing it after the car is already painted.

[slenning]

x 3 on the wimp factor. I cannot roll the windows on my Camaro up going down the road. You have to open the door , pull them up, and then shut the door.:mad:

[snowskater6996]

Question are you running the power windows through relays? I have heard that hey helped with the wimpy problem

[camcojb]

Question are you running the power windows through relays? I have heard that hey helped with the wimpy problem
it's not a voltage issue........... it's how much torque the motors allow before they internally shut off.

Jody

[GregWeld]

I just installed Electric Life windows in the '55 post car I'm doing and they work great... I will say however, that there are two major differences:

1: The glass size may be less than that of a 69 Camaro

2: That car uses "fuzzies" and has a full channel since it's a 2 door post car..

The glass rubbing on the rubber (wubba as a buddy calls it) will really cause some friction.

[GregWeld]

Question are you running the power windows through relays? I have heard that hey helped with the wimpy problem

Relays are more about the capacity of the switch - over the voltage/amperage some load sees. Given the proper gauge wiring etc. The relay is just a switchable switch (I like that term).... but it doesn't raise or lower the voltage.

If you compare the wiring gauge on an older car - and then run it thru an old pull style switch - not only are you possibly reducing the voltage (contact switch) you're also arcing etc... that was fine with the old T12 headlights... but now we want to run big old nasty big watt jobbies.... NOW you need a relay and some appropriate gauge wiring to handle that load. If not - you'll overload the stock wiring - and you'll burn up the switch. Ditto an electric fan. You want the fan to get heavy gauge wiring - they can pull 30 amps momentary (start up load)... and you're switching them on via a short to ground thru the temp/switch. That's when you use a relay... to have the switch switch the switch.... :rofl: It takes barely anything to switch the relay - and then the fan sees full voltage.

I'm only tossing this out there - because about 90% of the guys I know - still do not understand a "relay".

[snowskater6996]

okay just tossing that out from what I heard about people fixing the problem with relays. I dont have power windows and was looking for some for my challenger and came across electric life. But from hearing about the wimpy motor decided to think a little more about it. Whats the motor on the kits? is there a way to adapt a window motor from a car that would have enough torque to get the window to roll all the way up? How about the use of a helper spring like garage doors use when you open them?

[brans72]

Any feelings on using stock power window regulators guys? I have a set in garage but probably should get new harness for them. Brandon

[XcYZ]

Voltage drop had crossed my mind, so I had tested one by hot wiring the motor, and no change. There's just not enough gear reduction. It's pretty clear it's a gear reduction/torque multiplication issue when you put the windows down.... they go from fully closed to fully open in about 4 tenths of a second. lol

[The WidowMaker]

well that just blows. anybody tried contacting them to get an answer? if they do shut that quick, it seems like a gear change would work. plus it would help with the pressure shut off as well.

[GregWeld]

BTW -- I mis-spoke -- I have just installed POWER WINDOW SPECIALTIES power windows in the 55 post car --- and they work perfectly. They're fast - up and down - and don't stall or do anything weird. However, the windows in these cars use FELTS not rubber... so isn't directly comparable to the Camaro you're working on.

[GregWeld]

Voltage drop had crossed my mind, so I had tested one by hot wiring the motor, and no change. There's just not enough gear reduction. It's pretty clear it's a gear reduction/torque multiplication issue when you put the windows down.... they go from fully closed to fully open in about 4 tenths of a second. lol


Scott --- and Jody.

So do you see this as an ELECTRIC LIFE problem --- over another brand?

[brans72]

Any thoughts on just using factory power windows I have already?

[camcojb]

Any thoughts on just using factory power windows I have already?
why not, they worked well when the car was new..............

Jody

[camcojb]

Scott --- and Jody.

So do you see this as an ELECTRIC LIFE problem --- over another brand?
I have not tried any other brands so I have no idea if others are the same or not.

[brans72]

I am debating still, I know I need 2 motors,new boots for the doors and check the harness out. I just talked to my buddy James Hinshaw onwer of Hinshaw Chevelle that is local he said he would check all motors and wiring for me when I go pick up a few parts I got ordered and said he could reloom like factory did harness since it is orginal. He also said normally harness is still good on them so spend my $ else where on the car if harness is in decent shape.

[Romulus]

Scott --- and Jody.

So do you see this as an ELECTRIC LIFE problem --- over another brand?

I can add don't use Hoffman Group - but that goes for almost anything they sell.

My first choice would be factory regulators and motors with good clean wiring.

Those rubber seals will put up a fight. :willy:

[Matt@BOS]

I have a set of factory rebuilt ones, and the passenger side goes up and down fine, but the driver side stays open about 3/4" because of the weather stripping, so you have to open the door like others have noted with electric life. I haven't installed the rear quarter window regulators though, because the company that made them built them incorrectly, and I'm not exactly eager to take the interior out again.

Matt

[gearheadgarage]

Power windows in a Camaro is a cool option, but they are a real let-down. By the time you buy all the parts, and either install them or pay to install them, it's not worth it- unless you HAVE to have power to run Marquez, Fesler or other panels.

I have installed nearly 50 sets in Camaros over the years and am VERY good at adjusting the windows. Nonetheless, unless I was putting them in a '67, I'd try to talk the customer out of it. Electric Life is not the only culprit, all of the kits seem decent at best. As long as you know what to truly expect going in, you may still decide to convert to power windows. The key is understanding that they will not function at the level of a new BMW, Chevy, Honda.....If you're cool with that, then fine let's do it. 50% of potential "converts" opt out when I show them a set in another car- especially convertibles. The rest seem fine with it when we're done because we've set realistic expectations and both parties are on the same page. After all, communication & clear expectations are paramount when building these types of cars.

It's important to understand that just because you've spent good money for a part doesn't necessarily ensure that it's gonna satisfy!! :mad:

[Musclerodz]

Relays are more about the capacity of the switch - over the voltage/amperage some load sees. Given the proper gauge wiring etc. The relay is just a switchable switch (I like that term).... but it doesn't raise or lower the voltage.

If you compare the wiring gauge on an older car - and then run it thru an old pull style switch - not only are you possibly reducing the voltage (contact switch) you're also arcing etc... that was fine with the old T12 headlights... but now we want to run big old nasty big watt jobbies.... NOW you need a relay and some appropriate gauge wiring to handle that load. If not - you'll overload the stock wiring - and you'll burn up the switch. Ditto an electric fan. You want the fan to get heavy gauge wiring - they can pull 30 amps momentary (start up load)... and you're switching them on via a short to ground thru the temp/switch. That's when you use a relay... to have the switch switch the switch.... :rofl: It takes barely anything to switch the relay - and then the fan sees full voltage.

I'm only tossing this out there - because about 90% of the guys I know - still do not understand a "relay".

Correct that voltage is not affected, amperage is affected. Voltage is like horsepower, amperage is like torque. Also correct that given proper wire size, a relay is not needed. Problem is when you need a 12-14 guage wire to power a window motor or headlight, and you have to pass through a switch with contacts equal to 22 guage, you have a built in resistance. The resistance will eventually build to the point it will stop the flow of electricity and the motor will quit. If held on long enough the switch and or wire would get hot and eventually fail. The relay bypasses this built in choke by attaching the 12 guage wire directly the the power source and turning the switch into JUST a switch, not a power feed.

As far as the motors electric life uses, I have not looked a set carefully, but if they are the imported motors and not Delco units, they are weak out of the box. I am pretty sure they are the same motors used the 4th gen camaros and if anybody has owned one of those long enough, they have replaced the craptastic window motors they used. The aftermarket ones worked great for a few months, but then start getting slower and slower until they just quit.

We just started selling Nu-Relics and installing 2 kits in the shop right now. One in a 68 camaro, and one in a 70 Firebird. So far I am happy with them. Once we have some feedback in these cars we will either start selling them or continue looking for another option.

[GregWeld]

Correct that voltage is not affected, amperage is affected. Voltage is like horsepower, amperage is like torque. Also correct that given proper wire size, a relay is not needed. Problem is when you need a 12-14 guage wire to power a window motor or headlight, and you have to pass through a switch with contacts equal to 22 guage, you have a built in resistance. The resistance will eventually build to the point it will stop the flow of electricity and the motor will quit. If held on long enough the switch and or wire would get hot and eventually fail. The relay bypasses this built in choke by attaching the 12 guage wire directly the the power source and turning the switch into JUST a switch, not a power feed.

Gee.... isn't that what I said?? :rofl: :woot:

[ccracin]

Gee.... isn't that what I said?? :rofl: :woot:

That was 14 posts ago. I had forgotten already! I'm glad it was restated. :rolleyes:

Actually I am very interested in the Nu-Relic feedback Mike. We haven't purchased window regulators yet. Please do post when you have formed some opinions. Thanks.

[DRJDVM's '69]

I was planning on going with power windows for the Cuda.....not too keen on it now....

Although being able to open/close any of the 4 windows from the driver seat is nice. Its a real pain to have to go around and manually open/close the windows "as needed..... if you drive with them down..park....cloes them up....driving around with them down and it starts to get cold etc etc.... If the power ones really dont work all that well, I guess it will be worth the PITA factor

[GregWeld]

This whole thread reminds me of the "air bag" discussions... if you really push a guy about his "air bags" -- you find out he really isn't happy with them - "but they look kool when he's parked"...:rofl: :rofl:

[Musclerodz]

Gee.... isn't that what I said?? :rofl: :woot:

yeah, i was agreeing with you, just explaining it a little different . I am a little slow sometimes.....:willy:

[Musclerodz]

That was 14 posts ago. I had forgotten already! I'm glad it was restated. :rolleyes:

Actually I am very interested in the Nu-Relic feedback Mike. We haven't purchased window regulators yet. Please do post when you have formed some opinions. Thanks. I hooked a battery direct to one today installed in the car and tried to stop it and could not. Now that will change some when 50 feet is added and passed through the fuse box unless I install a relay to prevent resistance. I am certain they will work great for us.

[GregWeld]

yeah, i was agreeing with you, just explaining it a little different . I am a little slow sometimes.....:willy:

Your explanation was way better than mine Mike!:rofl:

[GregWeld]

NU RELICS website says they use NEW DELCO motors... that right there might be the big difference!

[ccracin]

I really like the looks of the Nu Relic stuff. I just found a front runner for our project. I really dig the Delco motors. Thanks for the info Mike.

Looks like some nice Nomad stuff too. Wonder who has one of those? :_paranoid

[GregWeld]

That old Nomad only needs a freshened up motor (almost done)... The car has been built (I've had it 11 years).. has a nice Gabe Lopez leather interior - electric windows and power remote door locks - big azz stereo - Nice Jim Meyer chassi... big brakes... She's a nice "hot rod" -- no "pro" anything there...

Oh - did I mention all the cracks in the body... in places nice old ladies like her shouldn't have them....:rofl:

I'll do that over when the '37 is done - that way I always have something to drive. In the meantime I'm stuck building a car for a buddy... and we know these things don't build themselves!
:cheers:

[Mkelcy]

My car's not on the road, but I recently installed electric driver's side front and rear quarter windows in my '68 Camaro. Because I was also installing the glass, I had to rig up a little wiring harness to power the motors while adjusting the glass. My temporary harness was about 5' of 12 gauge wire from the window switch to the motor wiring, and another 5' of 12 gauge wire from the window switch to the battery jumper cables that were hooked up to a 12v car battery. While I'd heard about the "wimpy" performance of the Electric Life electric windows, I was very impressed - again only during the glass install and adjustment process - with how quickly and powerfully the electric motors powered the windows up and tight against the weather stripping, even with the door closed.

However, and it's a big however, I was much less impressed with the wiring harness - which (IIRC) routes the power for the front window through the rear window switch in what looks like 16 gauge wiring. The harness is fused for 25 amps, and if the window motors are drawing 20 amps, the wiring should - given the length of the wiring runs - be sized at more like 12 gauge. I suspect that if the windows are "wimpy" it's because they're not getting enough juice. I'm still trying to decide whether to use the Electric Life harness, or to wire the windows more robustly from the start.

[GregWeld]

Gauge is "everything"....

Here's another thing that many people do NOT do when choosing wire size -- the "length of the run" is actually supposed to be measured as a ROUND TRIP... So if the physical distance is 5' -- The gauge really should be chosen based on the wire gauge chart as 10'. Most people don't know this little known factoid. I discovered it when choosing some wiring in my boat.

I think we get away with this in the car hobby/world - because typically you're grounding near the 'load'... so aren't really running a separate ground as you would have to do in a boat. But after learning this - I always "err" on a gauge up rather than the "minimum".

A quick calculation of wiring to show VOLTAGE DROP -- using 16 gauge wire - running 5' physical feet (for calculation purposes this will be DOUBLED) - a 12vdc load - 25 amp max - the VOLTAGE AT THE END OF THE CIRCUIT will be less than 11V when loaded.

Simply using 12 gauge instead - will net you 11.59 (11.6)V

This doesn't seem like a big deal -- until you actually use the load - and see the effect.

Of course that voltage will / should increase well over 12V while the alternator is humming along... but then again...

We're running ever increasing loads (almost constant loads) in our cars these days. EFI - Dual Electric fans - A/C - Stereos w/amps - electric fuel pumps and on and on... and I've seen alternator "charge" wires that are only 10 ga... and they're running a 120 amp alternator... :rofl:

[jhiphopjunky]

I've done some internet searches and it looks like NU-RELICS power window kits are the way to go!

[Musclerodz]

I've done some internet searches and it looks like NU-RELICS power window kits are the way to go!we looked long and hard before we settled on them as the brand we wanted to carry. give me a call when everyone is ready to buy. most kits ship same day

[The WidowMaker]

group buy? my internet searching shows the nu-relics are the best as well.

Tim

[Musclerodz]

no group buy needed, will give the best price we can do up front.