Mastercool Flaring Experts advice needed!

[Sti_Guy]

OK, so on all the forums all i hear is how great the Mastercool tool is for flaring SS lines. Sure the unit is expensive, but everyone says its great, and they wont use another tool.

So lets see what kind of results you guys are getting, I went out and tooled up for some 3/16 inverted flare work. I'm using 3/16 304L .028 wall seamless tubing.

However i just cant seem to get what looks like a good flare.
Here are 3 examples,

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/tokennegro/DSC_3964-flare.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/tokennegro/DSC_3963-flare.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/tokennegro/DSC_3962-flare.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/tokennegro/DSC_3961-flare.jpg

My next option is to build some type of system that will allow me to test them at 1000psi

[GregWeld]

I made up two SS brake lines last week for a buddy -- for his new Wilwood master cylinder... they needed to be double flare to use his existing T block and Prop valve.... used my Mastercool tool -- they were perfect and didn't leak.

A couple of things - not sure how you're going about it from beginning to end - but here's what I do.

I only cut the tubing with my fine tooth body saw (tubing cutter will work harden the cut area)

I then square the end on my disc grinder (fine paper disc)

I then DEBUR the inside radius with a deburing bit on a drill

The "squaring up" on the disc grinder will turn the end (an 1/8" in) blue - that will re-anneal that end of the tube.

Then I do the double flare.

Looks like you may be clamping a bit "tight" as well...

Is the tubing you bought (are using) annealed?

[JRouche]

Ok, I shouldn't be posting cause Im no expert on ANYTHING.. But...

Ill be honest, the flares look good. #1 looks the best. The nut wont go down? Like Greg said, a lil too much clamping prolly. You raised the metal to form a burr on the outside of the tube. Thats still salvagable. Remove the burr and let the nut slide down.

#2 looks a lil short on the flare surface. Thats just a matter of getting the correct stick out. Im sure you used the same stick out for all three. So what I see is the bubble is large and limited the amount of metal for the inside flare section. Almost looks like the first op ( the bubble making operation was not far enough in, make a tighter bubble, compress it a lil more before you do the second op).

#3 doesnt look bad at all. Still maybe a lil short on the cup, but better than #2.

#1 looks like a good flare IMO. Remember, its ALL about the flare. The cup. The bubble is just there to resist the nut so it can clamp the inside flare cup to the male flare.

When doing the first op, forming the bubble, take it down far enough so it almost bends the outer edge in. Look to compress the bubble so you have an even angle on both sides of the bubble. Too short of a compression on the first stage will make for a short inner cup. The outer edge will bend before the back side of the bubble and make for a short cup.

I think you have it down. The first flare is a good one, besides the outside of the tube being a lil deformed. Looking good. JR

[Sti_Guy]

Thanks guys for the tips!
1. I'm not sure if the tubing is annealed or not.
2. Anyone notice the shoulder of the bubble it just doesn't look very clean.
3. Ill try and loosen the clamping force on the holding portion.

Anyone have a good way of knowing when, enough is enough when it comes to the pumping of the handle?

Can anyone confirm the thickness of there tubing .028 or .035?

[GregWeld]

When it stops -- you're done.

You are aligning the end of the tube with the holding/forming block to start right?

I thread the handle to have the die against the tube. Close the valve - pump the handle - when it stops - you should be done. Back off the valve - unthread the handle to back the die off - and put in step # 2 - and do it all over again. LOL

YOU MUST USE ANNEALED SS TUBING.... SS work hardens in nanoseconds... which is why - even though I use a very fine blade to cut the tubing... I re-anneal it with the disc grinder. This also serves the purpose of squaring up the tube end.

Your tube needs to be seamless - thin wall - annealed.

[GregWeld]

BTW -- That is some nasty looking SS tubing you're using...

It should look as if it's almost done being polished... and takes VERY LITTLE effort to buff to gleaming - sparkling - wonderful looking tube...

I buff mine BEFORE forming it - it's easier when it's straight - and just takes a little touch up after you've formed it and terminated it.

The gold anodized fittings will buff up like chrome with very little effort.:woot:

[Sti_Guy]

Ive been questioning the tubing the entire time, but Ive picked up material from, onlinemetals, and metal supermarkets they both came with the same finish. However the larger stuff I bought did come polished and very nice. I asked the guy and they said it was just a different mill that produced it. Looks like its time for another supplier of tube, maybe one i can guarantee its annealed also.

[GregWeld]

Bent Fab -- or Pure Choice

The stuff you're getting is nasty. Sorry.

[Sti_Guy]

Bent Fab -- or Pure Choice

The stuff you're getting is nasty. Sorry.

Just ordered 36 feet from Pure Choice, it should be here when I get back from Alaska and ill post up how it compares.

Thanks Greg.

[GregWeld]

Welcome buddy.

Have a good trip.

[Sti_Guy]

Picked up new tubing from Pure Choice, after 5 flares no change in the outcome at all. The tubing seems to be no different then what I already had.

Id be really interested to see what other peoples flares look like. Mainly the issue is the tube not able to slide down the tube all the way.

[GregWeld]

Dude ----

Okay -- seriously -- I did this just for you after reading your latest post... went to the shed - grabbed my camera - and made up a piece of 3/16" SS tube with a double flare - using my hydraulic MasterCool...

Okay here goes pictorial

Whacked off a perfectly good flare - for you...


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7786.jpg

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7787.jpg



REAMED the inside... you can see the reamer I use on a DeWalt bat drill


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7788.jpg


NOTE THE NICE INSIDE REAM JOB...


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7789.jpg


Load the blocks and the tube - the tube needs to be flush with the end of the blocks and the blocks need to be flush and square in their nice little holder... you DO NOT NEED TO GORILLA the blocks to hold the tube - just give her a nice snug... there are plenty of serrations inside the block to hold the tubing with just a little effort....

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7790.jpg


Done with both operations -- so first the proper die for the first op - then the 45 die to finish - this is what it looks like all done in the blocks. I UNTHREAD the hydraulic --- enough to be able to load the die - then thread the hydraulic until the die is into/touching the tube - then I close the hydraulic valve and squeeze - when she stops - I back off the hydraulic knob - and unthread the hydraulic so I can get the die off/out.


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7791.jpg


DONE! DUDE -- this just ain't rocket science! :rofl: :cheers:


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7792.jpg


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7794.jpg

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7797.jpg


Now it's ready to meet it's fate in one of these little dandy bender dudes... :unibrow:

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/SS%20Double%20Flare/DSC_7799.jpg

[Sti_Guy]

Yeah its not brain surgery at all, if it was id have a lot better tools. Anyways looks like my results are very similar to yours, BTW nice pictures. I have the same procedure, cutting, deburing etc so nothing new locating the tube in the same place in the fixture making sure its flush. I think the issue is in the tube nuts. I'm reusing OEM ones and I'm guessing they have less room to allow the tube the flare, since its obvious the tube nuts you are using slide all the way down to the flare shoulder. Ill pickup some tube nuts this week and see how it comes together. :rolleyes:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/tokennegro/DSC_4225-set.jpg

[317millhand]

kind of blurry, but heres on of mine on some 3/16 using the same procedure as greg


http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv237/317millhand/brakelineflare003.jpg

[GregWeld]

Those flares look good...

STI --- maybe you're using a wee bit too much pressure... you have a little bit of a bell in your photo - which you highlighted with the "box" (nice job btw!)... and that might not be allowing your nut to slip down like it should.. It might be that "last" pump of pressure - maybe try one with a bit less and see what that does for you?

[Sti_Guy]

Pretty sure i found the culprit of my issues.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/tokennegro/DSC_4220-set.jpg

[GregWeld]

I just went to check mine -- and BINGO!! You found the issue!!! Mine have perfect straight "threads" all the way.... they don't look like yours at all.


BTW -- I use the DUDE thing in there --- just for fun... I don't really talk that way. :rofl:

[JRouche]

Oooh.. Yep, same here. My dies dont have a wrecked thread front like yours. Looks like someone pushed the threads in with the pump.

Now... I wouldnt think you should be able to do that if the dies were hard enough and the user was just flaring tubing. Any tubing, I dont care if its anealed or hard tube. The dies should be just as tough as the rest of the tool. It looks like the dies are soft.

Now you have me thinking. I might just set one up in the rockwell tester to give it a check. Ill bet she comes up on the soft side of what you would expect for a metal forming die. Interesting. JR

[Sti_Guy]

Yeah the die seems soft for sure. I just got this die brand new the other week from master cool and did under 15 flares with them. The cone has zero wear on it. I don't think I abused the tool in any way, but something is up for sure.

[Sti_Guy]

Contatced Master Cools Warrenty dept today they said it would be no problem to send me out another one. SO we will see how this works out.

[Sti_Guy]

Email from them:



I put a replacement set in the mail today. You should receive them within the next couple of days.
Thanks
Bill


Looks like ill have a new one soon. Atleast they have great service.:thumbsup:

[gearheads78]

For the record my flares looked just like yours. I had a few leaks at first but just tightening and loosening 5-6 times cured all leaks.

[GregWeld]

You know what I love -- is when I'm helping someone and I see teflon tape on the threads....:rofl: :rofl: Ask them "what's up with this".... "It's leaking" is the answer.

[JRouche]

Email from them:

I put a replacement set in the mail today. You should receive them within the next couple of days.
Thanks
Bill


Looks like ill have a new one soon. Atleast they have great service.:thumbsup:

Now THATS customer service. I like it.

Kinda off your topic but I love it when a company says no prob, we are mailing the parts today, free.
I have had a similar experience with another company like that last week. A fan/vent for my motorhome. Fantastic Vent. The thing has been in place for 12 years. It broke. I called them and said what was broke. They sent out an entire new lift mechanism (motor and all) without even asking about warranty info or anything. Just needed the model number and my address. Talk about customer service. http://www.fantasticvent.com

The way I see it is we can buy inexpensive items and expect to replace them at our cost when they break. Or buy decent items and rely on the company to back the item. Fantastic Vent (fantastic fan) goes one better. They want you to have a item that works, and it seems the time period doest concern them.

Im glad mastercool took the step forward and is making it right. Would be cool if they had a tech guy get on the phone to find out why the gripping threads went flat. I like solutions and fixes, not just fixes. Thats my inquiring mind at work. There is a reason the threads went flat. Maybe a soft batch of dies? Who knows.

Yer gonna be set back up though. Thats the main thing. And ummmm, I think your flares are fine. A 3ft stick of tube to ruin while practicing with the tool wont be too expensive. Flare, examine, cut, flare again. You can get ALOT of experimentation from one 3ft stick. Glad it worked out. JR

[Sti_Guy]

Ok, so Mastercool sent out the new die set, so here is latest.

New dies, they seem to hold the tube much better closer to the correct OD of the tube, so it does not mar the tube up so much compared to the first set, and the critical bubble end has held its shape, and the results speak for themselves, perfect flares and the tube nuts slide down perfectly.
I have to say I'm much happier with these results.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/tokennegro/DSC_4374-set.jpg

:woot:

[GregWeld]

Your new name -- Flare boy!


:hail: :hail: :cheers: :woot:

[Sti_Guy]

Your new name -- Flare boy!


:hail: :hail: :cheers: :woot:

Well ive been called alot worse!:rofl: