Firebird suspension update

[Warpath Pontiac]

I am going to be ordering all the parts to rebuild and update the front suspension on my '69 Firebird this weekend and I just wanted to make sure i'm headed in the right direction.

-I'm going to reuse the factory control arms and get polyurethane bushings and new ball joints.
-1-1/8" Hotchkis front sway bar
-Hotchkis subframe connectors
-Hotchkis SBC front springs (or would the big block springs be better for an A/C equipped car?)

and any opinions on shocks? I was thinking some KYB GR2s, but I really have no idea what to do when it comes to shocks.

[scherp69]

The Hotchkis stuff is good. I don't think you'll get a good response about KYB. Here's a thread from pro-touring.com where they talk about KYB shocks: http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66695 Give Frank a call, he'll hook you up with the parts you need. He's ProdigyCustoms on that thread and his phone number is listed in his signature.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Pontiacs are about the weight of a small Chevy.

[dhutton]

Polyurethane bushings are not too popular here because they tend to bind. Most guys try to use Delrin bushings as near as I can tell.

Don

[Warpath Pontiac]

Wouldnt Delrin bushings mean I would have to jump to Tubular control arms?

I'm just trying to do a big bang for the buck front suspension upgrade that will make my 'bird handle better than it currently does. Would I see that big of a difference with delrin bushings in a car that will see mostly street use and some autocross down the road? And I dont mind spending the extra money, but would tubular control arms with delrin bushings be that noticeable of an upgrade? Also, I hate the phrase "While your at it", but would it be worth it to do the Guildstrand mod while I have the suspension torn apart?

I'll give Frank a call this afternoon. I'm sure he can point me in the right direction.

[70rs]

It seems to me that the best "bang for your buck" is to do a quality rebuild of your existing components. Add to that good quality shocks, springs and a good alignment and you will be amazed at what a difference it will make. Also a good steering box, very important. (don't forget the rag joint and subframe bushings, all of it makes a difference)


I have no experience with Delrin bushings yet, but since you stated you will be driving on the street most of the time I wanted to tell you I have read and been told that the Delrin bushings DO transmit A LOT more harshness from the road. If you want to keep your ride quality good there MAY be a better choice.
I am NOT an expert on this. Just my .02.

Good luck with what ever you decide.:cheers:

[dhutton]

Global West sells Delalum bushings for stock upper and lower control arms. I once suggested to Mark at SC&C that solid bushings would give a harsher ride and he gave me quite a lecture about how they would not, the opposite in fact if I remember the conversation.

Don

[pavell]

screw ride quality.:_paranoid

[Warpath Pontiac]

screw ride quality.:_paranoid

Haha....Ive had to live with boatlike handling for the past 3 years with that car. With me wanting to drive the car faster and take turns harder now, i dont think im all that safe where i'm at now. I think i'll have to let you drive it when everything is all done.

and thank you Frank for setting me in the right direction. Looking forward to ordering the stuff this weekend and getting it on the car ASAP.

[SLO_Z28]

Don't use poly bushings in the control arms. Use oem style rubber bushings of cash is tight, or get global west "del-a-lum" bushings if you can afford them. For shocks hotchkis has specially valved bilsteins that are perfectly matched for their springs and id highly recommend them. Ive heard that the edelbrocks are valved pretty good for springs with some rate too them as well.

Dont be concerned about solid bushings on a street car. I have solid bushings in the upper and lower a-arms and my car rides better than it did with all the oem stuff.

[JRouche]

I have to agree. The poly bushings will add the stiffness you are looking for. But they do tend to add some problems later. They way they are used puts them in a rotational bearing load and they dont make a very good sliding bearing surface. All the greasing that can be done helps. But the grease usually gets pushed out and then its back to a sticky poly on metal surface.

Where delrin has better properties for a metal on plastic sliding bearing surface. Delrin AF is IMO the best. The added teflon helps with dry sliding.

I have my own lathe so I wont pay the large amount of money that some manufactures are looking for on the delrin bushings. Delrin is a dream to turn down. And I have made my own poly, delrin and solid steel bushings. The delrin was the easiest.

But if the cash isnt available for the aftermarket delrin bushings I reallly think new rubber bushings will give you years of great performance. Rubber compounds for bushings have come along way over the years. The mechanics of rubber bushings is still the same. You will have to set the car up (control arms) as usual when using the rubber because they are bonded tightly to the bushing housing.

And if you are set on poly not a big issue either. Really, they do work well, you wouldnt see so many offerings of them if they were that much of a problem.

One important issue is the grease. Not all greases are the same. The lil grease packet that comes with the bushing are more of an installation aid IMO. For maintenance a high quality grease will make a world of difference. And I like to install zerk fittings for poly bushing. Thats the only way you are gonna get the grease in between the plastic and metal. I like to grease both sides of the bushing if the application allows it. So one zerk for the outer shell and one for the inner surface for each bushing. Sometimes the inner surface cant be done due to the design of the application. But where it can it helps alot.

Oh and for the grease. There are alot of them out there. I have done alot of looking and testing through use. My fav right now is lubriplate special auto-marine grease. It has some very good specs and is not too expensive.

But no matter what route you go Ill bet yer excited. You have done the homework and you are gonna be VERY happy with the results. No more boating the tanker down the road. Cant wait to hear about the first road trip. JR

[Hotchkis]

I am going to be ordering all the parts to rebuild and update the front suspension on my '69 Firebird this weekend and I just wanted to make sure i'm headed in the right direction.

-I'm going to reuse the factory control arms and get polyurethane bushings and new ball joints.
-1-1/8" Hotchkis front sway bar
-Hotchkis subframe connectors
-Hotchkis SBC front springs (or would the big block springs be better for an A/C equipped car?)

and any opinions on shocks? I was thinking some KYB GR2s, but I really have no idea what to do when it comes to shocks.

The build plan looks solid, and you'll be happy with the SBC springs, the Pontiac 350 and the stock iron Chevy 350 are similar in weight. If you want to go a little lower, the 3" spring works well. What is your current height on stock springs from the center of the wheel well opening to the ground? One thing people don't think about is 35 year old cars often have settled several inches over the years, so a 1.5" drop spring actually doesn't lower the car much if at all.

As for shocks, if you can swing it spend a few extra dollars and go for a true high-quality high-performance shock. You'll be glad you did. Our HPS1000 is made in Germany by Bilstein and valved to our specs, so its a great choice, but no matter which way you go avoid the over the counter auto parts store stuff.

Sounds like a really fun build, and '69 Firebirds are really cool looking cars you don't see as often. Post pics as you go forward with the project!

[Josh69]

I used Hotchkis 2" drop BBC springs on my bird with iron heads because my research showed the Pontiac engine weighs around 650lbs, a BBC is 685(Mark IV) and a typical SBC is 575, so it's between the two, and I wanted the firmer rate. Now that they are on, the ride is nice, but they aren't quite low enough for me. I have 2" drop DSE leafs in the back and it has a fairly level stance with just a slight rake. I switched to aluminum heads and am adding A/C, so they'll probably end up about the same. My shocks are Koni's, which I personally prefer. Every Bilstein I have used has been harsh though I haven't tried the Hotchkis valved version. Even with these BBC springs, my ride is very compliant and it's never harsh. I have Global West Del-a-lum bushings in stock lca's, and same in Speedtech uca's. I also have the Hotchkis 1-1/8" sway bar. I have solid GW bushings and subframe connectors.

[Josh69]

The build plan looks solid, and you'll be happy with the SBC springs, the Pontiac 350 and the stock iron Chevy 350 are similar in weight. If you want to go a little lower, the 3" spring works well. What is your current height on stock springs from the center of the wheel well opening to the ground? One thing people don't think about is 35 year old cars often have settled several inches over the years, so a 1.5" drop spring actually doesn't lower the car much if at all.

As for shocks, if you can swing it spend a few extra dollars and go for a true high-quality high-performance shock. You'll be glad you did. Our HPS1000 is made in Germany by Bilstein and valved to our specs, so its a great choice, but no matter which way you go avoid the over the counter auto parts store stuff.

Sounds like a really fun build, and '69 Firebirds are really cool looking cars you don't see as often. Post pics as you go forward with the project!



How much lower would a SBC spring ride than the BBC spring and what is the spring rate differences? Is the 3" drop spring available for the SBC and BBC and what are the respective rates?

Thanks in advance for any clarification!

[Warpath Pontiac]

Im actually going with the Hotchkis valved bilsteins all the way around, along with springs, sway bar, and tubular uppers so I can do the guildstrand mod without cutting anything up. I ended up spending a little more than I originally planned, but I have a feeling I will end up with a really solid car.

And I went with the 2" SBC drop springs. I still have the factory springs in right now and if I can net around 1" to 1/2" drop I think my stance would be perfect.

One thing is certain, once everything is on the car and I get it aligned, i'm going to try and go through a couple tanks of gas driving around. :unibrow:

[Warpath Pontiac]

So 10:00 this morning I get a text message saying a ton of boxes just showed up for me and I knew exactly what it was. Sadly I was at work and had to suffer the rest of the day like a chained down child who just was just given a red bull. So after speeding all the way home I walked in and saw this...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/03kast/CIMG1858.jpg

So far i've pulled out all the old suspension and tomorrow im going to rebuild the lower control arms and drill the new holes for the guldstrand mod. Maybe I can get some driving time in late saturday or maybe sunday.

Oh and while unpacking my global west tubular uppers, am I the only one that was shocked in how overbuilt these things look? I mean, I have seen them on cars, but holding them in your hand up close is completely different. I was shocked a lot like this guy --->:wow:

[JRouche]

MAN!!! You gotta love X-mas in April... Looking forward to hearing about the first drive.... JR


So 10:00 this morning I get a text message saying a ton of boxes just showed up for me and I knew exactly what it was.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/03kast/CIMG1858.jpg