With more PT cars being tracked is it changing PT vendors product offerings?

[fleetus macmullitz]

Curious for opinions on if there is a trend or not where more and more PT parts vendors are changing their product offerings from formerly offering pro-touring components for street use only to now providing components that can hold up doing track duty also?

[1970camaroRS]

I thought that was the point of PT cars and the products offered for this niche.

[fleetus macmullitz]

From reading the various experiences of many individuals here and elsewhere, I don't think all products marketed as 'PT' components can handle repeated thrashes at a track, nor were they intended to.

[Ron in SoCal]

That's an interesting question as I'm in that 'buy cycle' where I want my components to be track capable. We all know there is a definate difference between a full on race and street use (mostly) copmponenets. Front clip, shocks, roll bar decisions (12 pt?), drivetrain, things that make the car work on the track (see Payback thread) all venture into my head and car designs.

From a market perspective, I believe what I buy and put on the car today will be second rate in five years. If they're still on my car in five years. Racing will do that to a hobby...

[Vegas69]

Trying to walk the line between street and track duty is no easy task. From clutches, oil coolers, brake pads, crankcase evacuation, fuel systems, clearances, heat protection, power steering and the list goes on and on. A regular PT car is going to be able to get away with murder compared to a car like Penny where it's pushed to the absolute limit. A compromise is the easiest definition. You must find the best option that will make you happy on the street(happy as you can be) and capable of taking the abuse. I'm not sure I would've built this car so nice if I could rewind time. The bottom line is the street is a joke for these cars. This thing goes from 50 to 100 in the blink of an eye. You simply can't use it unless you live in the country somewhere. The race track is the ONLY place you can realize the cars true potential safely. Not everyone is interested in racing or trying to outgun Penny or Jackass. That's certainly not my goal. My goal is to make my car as reliable and fast as I'm capable. If I'm at the top or bottom of the heap, I honestly don't care.

Don't get roped into thinking something is capable of withstanding the abuse you plan just because it's a PT part. Do your own due diligence. At the end of the day, you are basically engineering your own car by using parts from bunches of different companies and making them gel. It's actually a fun part of the build. Everytime you solve a problem, you make the car better and more reliable.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Thanks Todd, very well said.

That's the kind of info I'm looking for.

[Ron in SoCal]

Trying to walk the line between street and track duty is no easy task. From clutches, oil coolers, brake pads, crankcase evacuation, fuel systems, clearances, heat protection, power steering and the list goes on and on. A regular PT car is going to be able to get away with murder compared to a car like Penny where it's pushed to the absolute limit. A compromise is the easiest definition. You must find the best option that will make you happy on the street(happy as you can be) and capable of taking the abuse. I'm not sure I would've built this car so nice if I could rewind time. The bottom line is the street is a joke for these cars. This thing goes from 50 to 100 in the blink of an eye. You simply can't use it unless you live in the country somewhere. The race track is the ONLY place you can realize the cars true potential safely. Not everyone is interested in racing or trying to outgun Penny or Jackass. That's certainly not my goal. My goal is to make my car as reliable and fast as I'm capable. If I'm at the top or bottom of the heap, I honestly don't care.

Don't get roped into thinking something is capable of withstanding the abuse you plan just because it's a PT part. Do your own due diligence. At the end of the day, you are basically engineering your own car by using parts from bunches of different companies and making them gel. It's actually a fun part of the build. Everytime you solve a problem, you make the car better and more reliable.


Well said Todd. I'm with you on that - making a car as good as it can be, while not trying to be king of the track is the way to go.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Like all of us I'd like to build the car once.

Improvements afterwards of course is a given.

I guess I'd overdo it on the build so it can withstand repeated track thrashes.

Then if the car is not tracked as much as planned, at least you've covered those bases ... in case the plan changes again. :yes:

[tones2SS]

Like all of us I'd like to build the car once.
Then if the car is not tracked as much as planned, at least you've covered those bases ... in case the plan changes again. :yes:

Exactly my plan!!:thumbsup: :unibrow:

[Stuart Adams]

The thing I've noticed in the last couple years are the large increases in hp in the cars now, while keeping the weight ratio low. IMO 600hp is the low end and 700-800 will be the norm, if you want to compete. Especially at places like Pahrump.

The LS motors have been a big improvement.

Being able to run a 10 inch tire in front is huge also.

[70rs]

The thing I've noticed in the last couple years are the large increases in hp in the cars now, while keeping the weight ratio low. IMO 600hp is the low end and 700-800 will be the norm, if you want to compete. Especially at places like Pahrump.

The LS motors have been a big improvement.

Not to argue against your comment, but how much power can really be used in a PT car that is done right. (good suspension, tires, brakes...)
What is the limit of useful power? The limits come into play with traction of course. And there is a big difference between the auto x course and open track too. I assume an open track event might be able to use more power and help, but that at the auto x too much power might be tough to manage unless you want to go drifting. ??

I ask because I am shooting for about 500-550 hp and my car will be 90% street driven. But it will have a very good suspension system, brakes and tires too. I figured the HP goals I have in mind would be more than enough and too much more might just be wasted.

Your thoughts? Any ones thoughts?

Thanks for any input on this. Just something I had been thinking about.

[Vegas69]

I'm not sure I agree with you Stuart. With the new treadwear ratings the extra power may prove to be a disadvantage or a very slight advantage.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Mark Steilow's new car might answer a bunch of these questions soon. :D

[Ron in SoCal]

Not to argue against your comment, but how much power can really be used in a PT car that is done right. (good suspension, tires, brakes...)
What is the limit of useful power? The limits come into play with traction of course. And there is a big difference between the auto x course and open track too. I assume an open track event might be able to use more power and help, but that at the auto x too much power might be tough to manage unless you want to go drifting. ??

I ask because I am shooting for about 500-550 hp and my car will be 90% street driven. But it will have a very good suspension system, brakes and tires too. I figured the HP goals I have in mind would be more than enough and too much more might just be wasted.

Your thoughts? Any ones thoughts?

Thanks for any input on this. Just something I had been thinking about.

Hey Eric...I agree somewhat. IMHO, today's designs support about 650 to the rear wheels in most track events on first gens. This goes to Skip's early supposition that PT cars are getting more track serious as R&D cycles progress. I took one look at Todd's spinout at Spring Mtn (I think), and made that call. Further, I'm just a hobbiest. I don't have a race team nor a budget to support full time racing (but wouldn't that be fun), so I'm building a street use car that is track capable. If I had unlimited resources I'd build a car like Jackass, but I don't so I'll get my car done with around 500 RWHP and do a motor upgrade as phase two to try and get to 600+...

Ron

[70rs]

Hey Eric...I agree somewhat. IMHO, today's designs support about 650 to the rear wheels in most track events on first gens. This goes to Skip's early supposition that PT cars are getting more track serious as R&D cycles progress. I took one look at Todd's spinout at Spring Mtn (I think), and made that call. Further, I'm just a hobbiest. I don't have a race team nor a budget to support full time racing (but wouldn't that be fun), so I'm building a street use car that is track capable. If I had unlimited resources I'd build a car like Jackass, but I don't so I'll get my car done with around 500 RWHP and do a motor upgrade as phase two to try and get to 600+...

Ron

Hi Ron,
I agree on the R&D comment too. And I see more products all the time that APPEAR to be geared more on the performance side of the fence. Like you I am just a hobbiest and have to make the best of what I have and even though the car will be really nice and very capable it will still be full of compromise compared to a track only car. I need it to perform everywhere and over a very wide spectrum. A full tilt track car would suck on the street IMO. But then again that is the cool thing about these cars, getting the max level of performance we can and still be able to live with them on the road.
That is where I see the parts manufacturers heading within this portion of the car hobby. More and more people want performance but still do not want to give up comfort and style.

[rogue]

PT cars being tracked? where? Most PT cars only "track" at good guys and car show events. I'm glad to see events like El toro happening, but I don't see too many people getting too involved in track days....

I've invited every single person on both latg and pro-touring.com to every event I've ever attended. Never has anyone shown.

You'll notice most of the cars actually tracked are rough, for good reason. If you don't slide off the track from time to time, you're not driving fast enough.

[rogue]

Not to argue against your comment, but how much power can really be used in a PT car that is done right. (good suspension, tires, brakes...)
What is the limit of useful power? The limits come into play with traction of course. And there is a big difference between the auto x course and open track too. I assume an open track event might be able to use more power and help, but that at the auto x too much power might be tough to manage unless you want to go drifting. ??

I ask because I am shooting for about 500-550 hp and my car will be 90% street driven. But it will have a very good suspension system, brakes and tires too. I figured the HP goals I have in mind would be more than enough and too much more might just be wasted.

Your thoughts? Any ones thoughts?

Thanks for any input on this. Just something I had been thinking about.

HP has nothing to do with being fast. You realize this when you're passed by a spec miata or boxster. Its all driver.

A key fact most pro-touring folks forget. Hence many cars being driven by other drivers and not the owners.

In the track community you'll hear stories about stock looking subarus and occasionally oddball cars like mazda speeds showing up to track events and dominating the entire field. Why? not power, its the driver, and the driver knows the car.

[rogue]

Trying to walk the line between street and track duty is no easy task. From clutches, oil coolers, brake pads, crankcase evacuation, fuel systems, clearances, heat protection, power steering and the list goes on and on. A regular PT car is going to be able to get away with murder compared to a car like Penny where it's pushed to the absolute limit. A compromise is the easiest definition. You must find the best option that will make you happy on the street(happy as you can be) and capable of taking the abuse. I'm not sure I would've built this car so nice if I could rewind time. The bottom line is the street is a joke for these cars. This thing goes from 50 to 100 in the blink of an eye. You simply can't use it unless you live in the country somewhere. The race track is the ONLY place you can realize the cars true potential safely. Not everyone is interested in racing or trying to outgun Penny or Jackass. That's certainly not my goal. My goal is to make my car as reliable and fast as I'm capable. If I'm at the top or bottom of the heap, I honestly don't care.

Don't get roped into thinking something is capable of withstanding the abuse you plan just because it's a PT part. Do your own due diligence. At the end of the day, you are basically engineering your own car by using parts from bunches of different companies and making them gel. It's actually a fun part of the build. Everytime you solve a problem, you make the car better and more reliable.

I'm glad you're addicted to the track Todd. I really am. Your car deserves to be flogged.

Besides, we need to show all these LSX bandwagon folks that big cubes can still get it done. :thumbsup: (at 5mpg) :lol:

[Stuart Adams]

I'm not sure I agree with you Stuart. With the new treadwear ratings the extra power may prove to be a disadvantage or a very slight advantage.

Todd, you know I love your car and respect you, so disageeing with me is no biggie, I'm not very smart most of the time. I've just noticed some trends. We all can agree about suspension components, brakes ,etc as being a huge upgrade from stock. I've just noticed cars like DSE's test cars, Scott's car, Air rides stuff, Penny, Jackass, your new powerplant in your car, and Marks amazing almost done car, that hp is not low. And it just make sense to me that if the weight can be kept down somewhat while increasing hp then that will be better. I also know some tracks won't matter as much, but overall it is better IMO.

I don't see you building a new motor with less hp!!

More tire up front is a huge deal IMO, but that's just me.

[rogue]

Todd, you know I love your car and respect you, so disageeing with me is no biggie, I'm not very smart most of the time. I've just noticed some trends. We all can agree about suspension components, brakes ,etc as being a huge upgrade from stock. I've just noticed cars like DSE's test cars, Air rides stuff, Penny, Jackass, your new powerplant in your car, and Marks amazing almost done car, that hp is not low. And it just make sense to me that if the weight can be kept down somewhat while increasing hp then that will be better. I also know some tracks won't matter as much, but overall it is better IMO.

I don't see you building a new motor with less hp!!

More tire up front is a huge deal IMO, but that's just me.

HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent. I admit this with my own car. More tire up front is the biggest deal, I agree 100%.

The jury is out on whether or not aftermarket subframes, LSX engines, 3 links, and all the latest goodies make a fast car or not. The only way of testing it would be to use 1 driver, 1 track, multiple cars and tracking data. In my own heavily biased and sometimes obnoxious opinion :lol: most of the aftermarket parts we are so blessed to have are shiny bling, nothing more.

Good ole leaf springs, a modified stock subframe, a decent amount of power, and a decent driver will go a LOT farther than a guy whos never spent any seat time at a track with a 150k pro-touring car....

Point is, spend more time on the track, get faster. You can spend all you want on your car, or as little, the guy that spends more time out driving will always be faster.

Speaking of which, any of you interested in skip barber this year? Todd? Once I'm recovered from this surgery I have the itch to go to laguna seca and drive up as well. :thumbsup:

[Ron in SoCal]

HP has nothing to do with being fast. You realize this when you're passed by a spec miata or boxster. Its all driver.

A key fact most pro-touring folks forget. Hence many cars being driven by other drivers and not the owners.

In the track community you'll hear stories about stock looking subarus and occasionally oddball cars like mazda speeds showing up to track events and dominating the entire field. Why? not power, its the driver, and the driver knows the car.

Now you see Dane, why I offered to drive you down to RTTC? I was gonna pick your brain on track set up for an hour each way...:lol:

[rogue]

Now you see Dane, why I offered to drive you down to RTTC? I was gonna pick your brain on track set up for an hour each way...:lol:

I have yet to receive a refund, so technically I'm not out yet. Even though I can barely stand up to pee :lol:

I may pull a Steve Rupp and bring a ringer to drive my car.:willy:

[Stuart Adams]

Of course with all the supension upgrades we have now, more hp can be used to push them upgrades harder and have more fun.

[70rs]

HP has nothing to do with being fast. You realize this when you're passed by a spec miata or boxster. Its all driver.

A key fact most pro-touring folks forget. Hence many cars being driven by other drivers and not the owners.

In the track community you'll hear stories about stock looking subarus and occasionally oddball cars like mazda speeds showing up to track events and dominating the entire field. Why? not power, its the driver, and the driver knows the car.

That is kind of what I was getting at Dane. I think we agree? Too much power can be a waste beyond a certain point. Or at the least harder to manage and actually hurt lap times if you're spending time correcting or fighting the power delivery. But then again it all comes back to the driver there too.:cheers:

[rogue]

That is kind of what I was getting at Dane. I think we agree? Too much power can be a waste beyond a certain point. Or at the least harder to manage and actually hurt lap times if you're spending time correcting or fighting the power delivery. But then again it all comes back to the driver there too.:cheers:

We definitely agree. Knowing what I know now, I would have built my car in this order:

Nice shell
Full cage or roll hoop depending on your goals
Fire suppression
Proper seats
Every Carbon Fiber weight loss part from Anvil
Everything else fiberglass where possible for weight savings
Proper Brakes
Suspension setup of your choosing
Driving school
Racing school
AutoX events
Track days, LOTS of them

Drivetrain can remain slow while you learn to drive the car. 300hp is fine. You upgrade your drivetrain when you're capable fully utilizing the power.

A properly trained driver in a Mazda Miata will lap most of the cars on these forums. A fact most people will not believe....

That said, a lot of people are not building track toys or race cars, they are building their preference of luxury, comfort, performance in their own car. Most seem to lean towards comfort and luxury.

I believe a lot of the people in this community are trying to build a lexus out of a muscle car. Any time I see mention of mpg or AC I know who I'm talking to. :lol:

[Matt@BOS]

Speaking of which, any of you interested in skip barber this year? Todd? Once I'm recovered from this surgery I have the itch to go to laguna seca and drive up as well. :thumbsup:

What kind of Skip Barber class do you have in mind, there are a ton of options. In any case, I think it would be cool to have a group of pro-touring guys at a driving school, everyone could always learn more, regardless of experience.

And yes, as for what has been said about horsepower, I would have to agree that a lot of the owners out there are building engines with power outputs that far exceed usefulness due to driver skill, or lack there of, and I think it is because everyone wants to be able to compete with cars like Bad Penny or Jackass, which both have very competent drivers capable of handling north of 600 horsepower.

Matt

[Stuart Adams]

Doesn't take very long to want 700 hp after driving 600.

[Ron in SoCal]

Doesn't take very long to want 700 hp after driving 600.

It's a sickness called 'ten-more-itis'

You wanna go faster? You gotta spend 10 more G's...:yes:

[rogue]

What kind of Skip Barber class do you have in mind, there are a ton of options. In any case, I think it would be cool to have a group of pro-touring guys at a driving school, everyone could always learn more, regardless of experience.

And yes, as for what has been said about horsepower, I would have to agree that a lot of the owners out there are building engines with power outputs that far exceed usefulness due to driver skill, or lack there of, and I think it is because everyone wants to be able to compete with cars like Bad Penny or Jackass, which both have very competent drivers capable of handling north of 600 horsepower.

Matt

Bad Penny has the best mod out there, a driver with a lot of experience :lol:

/pokes steve

[70rs]

Drivetrain can remain slow while you learn to drive the car. 300hp is fine. You upgrade your drivetrain when you're capable fully utilizing the power.


Any time I see mention of mpg or AC I know who I'm talking to. :lol:



I agree with your comment on power. And the Miata driver too.
BUT......I want AC and decent MPG! :rofl:

[rogue]

Doesn't take very long to want 700 hp after driving 600.

Agreed. Only thing keeping me from doing heads/cam/intake is the fact that I know *I* am the limiting factor in getting the car faster. That'd put me just under 600whp.

I lack the testicles and confidence to enter turn 8 at big willow at 150mph... I think 650-700whp is manageable in a first gen as long as its setup right. I believe the minitub trend of stuffing steamrollers in the back isn't about traction as much as it is for looks. A leftover trend from streetrodding and pro-street.

I have minimal issues with traction on R888s and 460whp 510ft/lbs...

[rogue]

I agree with your comment on power. And the Miata driver too.
BUT......I want AC and decent MPG! :rofl:

Buy a prius! :lol:

[Stuart Adams]

When I drove my blue car with all the DSE suspension parts and an LS7 with approx 540 hp, it definately felt like the car could handle another 150 hp. So its all relative, if you have a good foundation 550hp seems easily manageable. If you have a stock camaro and 700 hp, you better have life insurance.

[rogue]

When I drove my blue car with all the DSE suspension parts and an LS7 with approx 540 hp, it definately felt like the car could handle another 150 hp. So its all relative, if you have a good foundation 550hp seems easily manageable. If you have a stock camaro and 700 hp, you better have life insurance.

a stock camaro with 700hp wont go past 60mph :lol:

[70rs]

When I drove my blue car with all the DSE suspension parts and an LS7 with approx 540 hp, it definately felt like the car could handle another 150 hp. So its all relative, if you have a good foundation 550hp seems easily manageable. If you have a stock camaro and 700 hp, you better have life insurance.

I can't imagine my car in stock form with 500hp. Let alone 700hp! LOL!!

I will have it set up with very good suspension and brakes and tires too. Performance is the goal. The car will be better than I am. Just like my bike is.
So MY goal is 500-550 but in a properly built chassis. Maybe someday I will grow into it and need more. But I try to be realistic about that kind of thing.
I think I am better off with a well balanced car instead of a HP monster, no skills and stock chassis.

So I am very glad the manufacturers are going in the direction of performance more and more now. Back in the Pro Street days that was not the case. If it was chrome or billet it went on the car. Performance was not even a consideration. In fact many didn't even run. To me that is a GIANT waste of cash. Any part that does not make the car a better performer should not be on it IMO.
:cheers:

[Matt@BOS]

I agree with your comment on power. And the Miata driver too.
BUT......I want AC and decent MPG! :rofl:

I thought that too, until I realized that, as of now and until the weather stripping is adjusted, my car is quieter with the windows down, so I doubt I'll ever need A/C. Now, decent MPGs are nice, but then again so is the sound of a big block.

Dane, I'd also agree that minitubs are at least somewhat for looks in most cases, and could represent some kind of weird, distorted pro-street nostalgia, but hey what about big blocks :lol:
BTW, I definitely know of several local cars that owners are trying to turn into Lexus/BMWs, most of those owners have more into their half finished cars than many of the finished high-end cars here, just because they always change their minds. I think most of them lack the ability to differentiate between creature comforts and new car feel.

Matt

[rogue]

I thought that too, until I realized that, as of now and until the weather stripping is adjusted, my car is quieter with the windows down, so I doubt I'll ever need A/C. Now, decent MPGs are nice, but then again so is the sound of a big block.

Dane, I'd also agree that minitubs are at least somewhat for looks in most cases, and could represent some kind of weird, distorted pro-street nostalgia, but hey what about big blocks :lol:
BTW, I definitely know of several local cars that owners are trying to turn into Lexus/BMWs, most of those owners have more into their half finished cars than many of the finished high-end cars here, just because they always change their minds. I think most of them lack the ability to differentiate between creature comforts and new car feel.

Matt

Muscle cars aren't about luxury, they're about riding lightning and turning money into heat, adrenaline, noise and melted rubber. They always have been and always should be.

To refine a muscle car is a sin. I can understand AC, power steering, comfy seats. But to expect modern car comfort and "get in and go" functionality out of one seems to go against the mere purpose of the vehicle.

Then again, I'm a guy stuffing a 170whp Yamaha R1 with a sequential gearbox in a 1970 mini, so I have a few screws loose myself.

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

I think some people should have bought an AMG SL55 instead of a 1969 camaro though on these forums.

A refined muscle car is cute, I'd like one for my girlfriend.:willy:

[skatinjay27]

1- camaro's are pony cars not muscle cars.:D
2- i live in vegas and AC is a need here.:yes:

[Vegas69]

Corner entry speed isn't going to change regardless of power at the rear wheels. My old engine made 491rwhp and 497 rwtq and it was very managable during a fast autocross. The new engine is 75hp and 54 ftlbs stouter at the flywheel. It's now a handful. My opinion is you will need to be a much better driver the more power you put under the hood. How many 1000hp drag cars have you seen run 12's? :lol: Ryan Mathews in the DSE car almost taking out the cobra on the road course is a prime example. That car makes South of 500/500 at the tires. I doubt you see DSE with 700-800hp. I don't think the chassis can handle it. Meaning, decent traction in the first three gears. Let's not forget I'm running R888's and all the events will be 200 treadwear. Do I think Stielow can handle 800hp. Yep, but most of you can't. Putting down that kind of power in a straightline with a well prepared track is a different ballgame than a road course or autocross. I wouln't want anymore power.....there is a point where you over power your chassis, tires, and you run out of talent.

[fleetus macmullitz]

Since a number of people don't frequent both boards, I also started the same title thread on pro-touring.com and
Jimi Day posted this...

"I think there's been several companies that made parts to stand up to track days even before the popularity of these events that we see today. I'm lucky to get to work with many of these companies on a daily basis. I can tell you without a doubt that those companies that have always made great parts are making them even better, and all the others have upped their game substantially. The "street car" track events are definitely making a difference and creating change."

[monza]

Muscle cars aren't about luxury, they're about riding lightning and turning money into heat, adrenaline, noise and melted rubber. They always have been and always should be.

To refine a muscle car is a sin. I can understand AC, power steering, comfy seats. But to expect modern car comfort and "get in and go" functionality out of one seems to go against the mere purpose of the vehicle.

Then again, I'm a guy stuffing a 170whp Yamaha R1 with a sequential gearbox in a 1970 mini, so I have a few screws loose myself.

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

I think some people should have bought an AMG SL55 instead of a 1969 camaro though on these forums.

A refined muscle car is cute, I'd like one for my girlfriend.:willy:

I have to disagree. Not to side track the thread, but your always bitter about cars that happen to have some creature comforts. My car is not cute, my wife is. I love your car but why slag a car with a killer stereo, etc? I love music and cars! Power windows why not... it's pimp and adds a few pounds, whatever? Maybe you should look again at what site your posting on and what defines a Pro Touring car. You don't like shinny paint I do.

[evilzee28]

Dane, thanks for bringing some good reasoning to the board, excellent points raised. :thumbsup:

cheers....Nige

[Stuart Adams]

The hp numbers that I am referring to are not at the wheels. Just motor dyno numbers that most can relate to. 700 to 800 at the wheels is not what I'm talking, I tried to drive a car with 800 at the whheels, lol.

I guess I should have just said I've noticed the cars being built now have more hp and a bigger front tire!

[tones2SS]

Of course with all the supension upgrades we have now, more hp can be used to push them upgrades harder and have more fun.

I agree Stuart. It's like having a ton of power WITH the ability to control that power a lot more because of the killer upgrades to suspension, front and rear.

[fleetus macmullitz]

With the recent popularity of pro-touring events like the Motor State Challenge and The Optima shootout, to name just a few, do you think the focus of many in progress builds have changed with the success of these events?

[Stuart Adams]

Yeah more power, wider tires, better suspension pieces precisely tuned for that car.

[fleetus macmullitz]

It would be nice if Goodguys started using bigger auto-x tracks.

[rogue]

I have to disagree. Not to side track the thread, but your always bitter about cars that happen to have some creature comforts. My car is not cute, my wife is. I love your car but why slag a car with a killer stereo, etc? I love music and cars! Power windows why not... it's pimp and adds a few pounds, whatever? Maybe you should look again at what site your posting on and what defines a Pro Touring car. You don't like shinny paint I do.

I'm sorry did I slag your car or anyone elses? Comparing your car to a lexus or an AMG is an insult? I'd think thats the compliment you'd be going for with a build like that. You've added power everything, leather everything, AC. Its a luxury automobile with performance, like an AMG. I apologize if you take this as insult.

My opinion on what a muscle car is and isn't varies from yours, thats all.

To assume I hate shiny paint is silly. I'm not a rat rodder here.:lol:

[70rs]

I think it is safe to say we all want our cars to perform. If that includes the AC system performing on a hot day....so be it. No, I am not going to buy a Prius Dane. :rofl: :rofl:

The parts rolling out to market these days are getting better all the time. And seem to be leaning in the direction of serious street and track performance. But there will always be a big difference between a dedicated track car and the components used to build it and a "traditional" PT car. But the line between them is getting more and more fuzzy every year (from a strictly performance standpoint). Meaning, the PT cars are posting better lap times, higher skid pad numbers, shorter stopping distances. But as they do this they lose the "street" comfort and daily driver ease of use.
So how far do you take it before you turn it into a track car?

[rogue]

I think it is safe to say we all want our cars to perform. If that includes the AC system performing on a hot day....so be it. No, I am not going to buy a Prius Dane. :rofl: :rofl:

The parts rolling out to market these days are getting better all the time. And seem to be leaning in the direction of serious street and track performance. But there will always be a big difference between a dedicated track car and the components used to build it and a "traditional" PT car. But the line between them is getting more and more fuzzy every year (from a strictly performance standpoint). Meaning, the PT cars are posting better lap times, higher skid pad numbers, shorter stopping distances. But as they do this they lose the "street" comfort and daily driver ease of use.
So how far do you take it before you turn it into a track car?

We all build our cars for our own purposes, whether it be show queen, cruise night car, or track monster. This thread however is about PT cars that are tracked. Everything I've ever read says that anything with a hoop or cage should not be driven on the street. Unless there are rigid bucket seats with proper harnesses used at all times and proper padding on the cage.

Lots of cars on these forums break that general rule of safety. My own included with its half-assed 5 point belt harnesses and lack of hoop at all. A dedicated track car should have rigid buckets, a full cage, fire system, depending on how 'into' the hobby you may be. A certain trans am on this forum is properly setup for track use, and beyond that! :thumbsup:

Any time I see a street car with reclining seats and a hoop/cage I think of all the advice given to me by track instructors. Recipe for serious injury or worse yet death on the street from a minor fender bender. I'm walking the fine line of swapping out my comfy reclinable recaros for some trans am styled vintage rigid buckets and a proper cage or hoop. I'll use the recaros for the Mini.

Of course this is all advice from the safety nazis. We can all take it or leave it with a grain of salt.

I've left it ages ago, but given all my health issues, I'm considering a full cage, halon system and proper buckets. Last thing I need is an accident to cause me even more pain. Dick Guldstrands eyes went wide open when we started discussing what I do with my own car and laptimes, and the first words out of his mouth were "You need a cage."

I'm very close to pulling the trigger to full time track monster thats street legal. 5 point belts, a cage and buckets on the street SUCK, but for that amount of safety on the track its a sacrifice. You just have to properly pad the cage, and actually USE the belts as intended every time you get in the vehicle. No exceptions.

[rogue]

And hey, nothings wrong with a prius. They good good MPG like the LSX :willy:

k I'm done stewing the pot, I don't want to get punched in the face at el toro if I make it down. :lol:

[70rs]

And hey, nothings wrong with a prius. They good good MPG like the LSX :willy:

k I'm done stewing the pot, I don't want to get punched in the face at el toro if I make it down. :lol:

:rofl: :rofl:

It's all good Dane. Having input from everyone is what this forum is all about right? I know I appreciate everyones input even if it goes against my own opinion. Most of us are very open minded here and appreciate others advice and opinions.
I know I have A LOT to learn and discussions like these offer me a ton of great info.:cheers:

[monza]

I'm sorry did I slag your car or anyone else's

Why yes you always 'try' to insult my car and a lot of the Pro-Touring cars. I don't really care and should not have said anything. It just gets very tiresome again and again with the same rant for years. We get your point you have the more 'muscle of a car', your riding the lightning... we driving wasted, cute, old luxury cars.

Comparing your car to a lexus or an AMG is an insult? I'd think thats the compliment you'd be going for with a build like that. You've added power everything, leather everything, AC. Its a luxury automobile with performance, like an AMG. I apologize if you take this as insult.

Not an insult just incorrect, I do like Lexus's and AMG's and I like lots of cars I'm a total car nut. I'm not going for any compliment of the sort. I'll just give up, my car is not a muscle car- its a old luxury car even though it is nothing like a AMG. Really IMO these old luxury cars ARE your car except nicer.

For the record, from just the one post I disagreed with here are your insults:
(I particularly like the first one... is it from some King of Cool movie?)


-Muscle cars aren't about luxury, they're about riding lightning and turning money into heat, adrenaline, noise and melted rubber. They always have been and always should be.

-To refine a muscle car is a sin.

-But to expect modern car comfort and "get in and go" functionality out of one seems to go against the mere purpose of the vehicle.

-I think some people should have bought an AMG SL55 instead of a 1969 camaro though on these forums.

-A refined muscle car is cute, I'd like one for my girlfriend.

Those sir are insults.

To assume I hate shiny paint is silly. I'm not a rat rodder here.:lol:

Why? Shinny paint its a luxury? I'm sure if I wanted to I could dig up some post insulting what a waste quality paint jobs are on theses old luxury cars.

My opinion on what a muscle car is and isn't varies from yours, thats all.

Indeed, how about a truce? Maybe in the future please don't insult our cute old luxury cars time after time on the site designed to showcase them- a Pro Touring car site.

[NOT A TA]

I lurk here a lot reading threads like this and rarely speak up. Danes been way out on a limb by himself lately so I figure nows a good time to chime in. Just may end up wishing wishing I had a fire suit!

During a conversation with Johnny Hunkins while he was shoting my car for PHR back in '05 he recommended I join the LATERAL-G forum. He explained that this is where guys with cars like mine that were used on track would be. You know.....G machines. He was wrong.... Hardly any of the forum members cars were used on track at that time and although there was always talk about getting cars on track and building cars that would eventually be used on track the reality was that hardly anyone had actually driven their cars (at speed) on a full size road race track. Yes there were a couple but very very few and most of those were owned by companies not individuals. Heck, most of the cars owned by forum members didn't even run! So I wondered, "Where's the LATERAL-G content?"

It's several years later now, and there are more cars being used on track but in comparison to the number of members on the forum the percentage of those who actually use their car on full size tracks is still very small. I stopped inviting people from forums to road track days because no one has ever showed up. In the past 6 years there was only one track day I went to where any other PT/G-machine type cars showed up. I put 2 wheels off twice last year and 4 wheels off once, how many members even had their car on a track? Nevermind pushing the limits! Not very many.


I have to applaud people like Bill Howell for getting more people to take their cars out and actually drive them in some type of event. Without the leadership, time, and money invested by people like Bill we wouldn't have the rising popularity of the events geared toward the PT/G-machine crowd. This is a good thing and I've been hoping it'll get some people to step up and bring their cars out to track days. It would be fun to run with a bunch of 60's and 70's style cars instead of the typical modern cars I run with at track days.

If someone here owns a Prius but has never been on a full size track, take the Prius! You'll learn how to stay on "the line" better, and more quickly than with a huge horsepower car. Danes probably right, a Miata with a good driver could spank most of the car/driver forum members on most road tracks. I'll be the first to admit more than a few passed me when I started! (now only occasionally! LOL) If you take the Prius it'll really get you to want to bring your PT/G-machine out there!

You don't NEED big power, or NEED big brakes, or NEED huge rubber, or NEED less weight, or NEED the latest trick suspension, to get out on track. The simple truth is that a stock ordinary car is better than most people are on track until they get some instruction and track time. Got a sporty daily driver? Take the next 500 bucks you were going to spend on your project car and use it to go to a HPDE event weekend at a road track. You'll have a blast and come away a much better driver!

I rented a 4 dr 4 cylinder Cobalt with an automatic and ran it at Road Atlanta one weekend. I learned a lot driving what would be considered a "momentum" car and by the end of the weekend I could drive almost the whole track with the pedal to the floor lifting only 5 times each lap. And yes they do have a speed limiter, it's at 99 MPH! The next time I took my Firebird I was smoother on the track.

This forum along with similar forums seem to be becoming more and more about what "looks" like a car that can perform on track, rather than cars that are actually going to be used on track. There's more chatter about car shows and stance than track days and what tires work best.

As for the OPs question about vendors changing products because more cars are tracked, it doesn't appear that way to me. To me, it appears like most new products are more for looks than function. When was the last time a wheel manufacturer came out with new wheels and announced the reduced weight or increased strength to enhance performance as selling features? Lots of the billet parts sold weigh more than the stuff they're being used to replace, but they do look cool! LOL (anyone running my billet centercaps can take them off on track. LOL). Since the majority of cars don't get used on track there's really no reason for vendors to sell products that are more track oriented. There's just not many people using parts for those purposes. As long as they "look" like they would be good on track and seem to increase the "seat of the pants" feel, they'll sell.

While I'm on a soapbox talking about track days let me remind everyone that taking a PT G-machine type car to the track regularly costs money. I don't want to deter anyone, but many people don't think about it when they're building their "dream" car. The reality of how much expense is involved sets in quick once you start going to tracks. Sure you know there's an entry fee and ya there's maybe some travel costs involved and possibly a hotel but the little things add up just like when you're doing a project. I kept track of the expenses for a couple years and it averages about a thousand dollars a day for me which included tracks where I drove the car to and from the track while eating/sleeping at home as well as tracks I trailered to, stayed in hotels, and ate out. I know there's folks who will say "I could do it cheaper than that" however I'm just saying, "Thats what it cost me" in additional expenses over a period of time. Pad wear, tire wear, rotor wear, fluid swaps, trailer maintenance, race gas, parking expenses, tolls, and on and on all add up. And I didn't include things like helmets that get outdated or harnesses that get outdated and won't pass tech after a couple years. If you aren't willing to spend a grand a day and also realize you may ball the car up and total it with (probably) no insurance coverage, you shouldn't think about building your car for track use, just build a cool street car and if you go to an entry level event or two it'll be fine. Try to be honest with yourself about what the car is really going to be used for before you get in deep building a car for track use that may never see a track. Cages/bars harnesses etc. are a pain on the street and if you don't really need them for track use they're not worth the hassle and expense. Most entry level HPDEs don't require anything more than a normal car has, other than a helmet. Convertibles require a roll bar.

Auto-X is cool (yes, I've done it). But the short courses seem better suited to little cars without huge power, and again, driver technique trumphs sophisticated cars with inexperienced drivers. If you've got a big power car it needs room to stretch its legs! Take it to a big track!

The original question in this thread was about whether more cars being tracked has changed PT vendors offerings. I don't really see it. If you look at the list of site sponsors on the left you can see what forum members are most likely spending their money on. If there were a lot of track guys here there'd be data aquisition companies, Lap Timers, race car products companies, Fire & Safety equipment companies etc. listed, but its mostly drivetrain, suspension, brakes, appearance, and comfort equipment oriented companies advertising.

[rogue]

Apparently my comments are hitting way too close to home for some, yet I have 6 PMs from members glad I'm saying what I'm saying.

I'm not even going to respond to Monza's post. He apparently has taken my comments very personal, even though I have never once interacted with the guy and I love his car. Pictures of it are even kept in my "Camaro Inspiration" album I keep.

I'll just shut up.

[monza]

Not A TA

Agreed, no need for a flame suit, great points. When I can't take my PT car to the track and I have a track day I take what ever junk I have around. Normally a Corvair, I used to think it was good on the track ha ha. It is fun however and it is seat time.

More people should track their cars its fun but yes spendy. This is not really a track site more like a cross over, car and track? Pro- Touring does not have to be about the track. Just getting it so it can track is the battle then ya can so you should...then it breaks...

[Flash68]

Pictures of it are even kept in my "Camaro Inspiration" album I keep.



Funny. I have a folder on my laptop with that exact title.

[monza]

Rogue
You just beat me on the PM count glad I'm saying what I'm saying.You miss my point totally. I have taken nothing personal. Sorry I said shat.

Now I'll just shut up.

[fleetus macmullitz]

I think some people should have bought an AMG SL55 instead of a 1969 camaro though on these forums.

I disagree.

Its none of anyone's business to tell 1969 Camaro owners here or on any forum they shouldn't own the car they want. :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

While I have to say I walk the middle ground I'll sum it up pretty simply. I had folks from three different churches stop by my house this month.(Man, what the hell!) Cars are no different than religion. We all have different beliefs in what makes for an ideal car. Clearly Dane is the guy that loves to race and you won't catch polishing his wheels on Sunday morning. Dave is the guy that takes everything to the extreme. He polishes on his car on Sunday morning but believes in beating on it to his potential. I respect both of you guys but your not on the same page.

[fleetus macmullitz]

To Not A TA...

John, that's excellent info.

Thanks for taking the time to post it.

[tones2SS]

While I have to say I walk the middle ground I'll sum it up pretty simply. I had folks from three different churches stop by my house this month.(Man, what the hell!) Cars are no different than religion. We all have different beliefs in what makes for an ideal car. Clearly Dane is the guy that loves to race and you won't catch polishing his wheels on Sunday morning. Dave is the guy that takes everything to the extreme. He polishes on his car on Sunday morning but believes in beating on it to his potential. I respect both of you guys but your not on the same page.

Great point Todd.:thumbsup:
See, I'd be somewhere in the middle as well. When I get to the stage where I can build/afford my pro-tour beast, it will have all the goodies, DSE suspension, Rushforth's or iForged wheels, great paint and so on. BUT,....there really aren't many tracks or events out here in the Northeast to auto-x. SO, I will build the car the way that I WANT TO BUILD IT and drive it on the street and to car shows and so forth. AND,...if a chance arises that I get to auto-x it, I will and the car will "be ready" for it. (whether I am or not, is a different story! lolllll...) OH,..and look good doing it as well!!! (the car anyways!):thumbsup: :cheers:

[fleetus macmullitz]

Great point Todd.:thumbsup:
See, I'd be somewhere in the middle as well. When I get to the stage where I can build/afford my pro-tour beast, it will have all the goodies, DSE suspension, Rushforth's or iForged wheels, great paint and so on. BUT,....there really aren't many tracks or events out here in the Northeast to auto-x. SO, I will build the car the way that I WANT TO BUILD IT and drive it on the street and to car shows and so forth. AND,...if a chance arises that I get to auto-x it, I will and the car will "be ready" for it. (whether I am or not, is a different story! lolllll...) OH,..and look good doing it as well!!! (the car anyways!):thumbsup: :cheers:

Pete might be able to make you look good as well Tony. Amazing what some paint and bodywork can do.

:lol:

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

with all those comments wilding out in here...


THAT is why i made The Streetfighters..

I(as politically incorrect) for one mostly agree with Rogue on much of the issue.. BUT.. i love FUEL with all its technological glory to death.
I think the only thing on a car that could be pretty and still the car will be bad ass IS the paintjob.. but thats as far as i go..

thats why Streetfighters are the punkrock of Pro Touring..

the original protouring to me was modern upgrades that make the car PERFORM.. then secondly threw in creature comforts..

when they started doing streetrod interiors and rediculous wheels and just looking the part they are ONE step closer to putting a crybaby doll on the front fender..

...rather than a scratch from a cone.


something that i personally respect more than a trophy at World of wheels for..."Best Protouring"

http://media.photobucket.com/image/rolleyes/the_purifyer/rolleyes.jpg

[tones2SS]

Pete might be able to make you look good as well Tony. Amazing what some paint and bodywork can do.

:lol:

lollllllllllll.......:thumbsup:
VERY TRUE!! He and Brian will have their hands full.:cheers:

[fleetus macmullitz]

We all build our cars for our own purposes, whether it be show queen, cruise night car, or track monster. This thread however is about PT cars that are tracked. Everything I've ever read says that anything with a hoop or cage should not be driven on the street. Unless there are rigid bucket seats with proper harnesses used at all times and proper padding on the cage.

Lots of cars on these forums break that general rule of safety. My own included with its half-assed 5 point belt harnesses and lack of hoop at all. A dedicated track car should have rigid buckets, a full cage, fire system, depending on how 'into' the hobby you may be. A certain trans am on this forum is properly setup for track use, and beyond that! :thumbsup:

Any time I see a street car with reclining seats and a hoop/cage I think of all the advice given to me by track instructors. Recipe for serious injury or worse yet death on the street from a minor fender bender. I'm walking the fine line of swapping out my comfy reclinable recaros for some trans am styled vintage rigid buckets and a proper cage or hoop. I'll use the recaros for the Mini.

Of course this is all advice from the safety nazis. We can all take it or leave it with a grain of salt.

I've left it ages ago, but given all my health issues, I'm considering a full cage, halon system and proper buckets. Last thing I need is an accident to cause me even more pain. Dick Guldstrands eyes went wide open when we started discussing what I do with my own car and laptimes, and the first words out of his mouth were "You need a cage."

I'm very close to pulling the trigger to full time track monster thats street legal. 5 point belts, a cage and buckets on the street SUCK, but for that amount of safety on the track its a sacrifice. You just have to properly pad the cage, and actually USE the belts as intended every time you get in the vehicle. No exceptions.

Just went back and re-read this. Very helpful info.

[rogue]

I lurk here a lot reading threads like this and rarely speak up. Danes been way out on a limb by himself lately so I figure nows a good time to chime in. Just may end up wishing wishing I had a fire suit!

During a conversation with Johnny Hunkins while he was shoting my car for PHR back in '05 he recommended I join the LATERAL-G forum. He explained that this is where guys with cars like mine that were used on track would be. You know.....G machines. He was wrong.... Hardly any of the forum members cars were used on track at that time and although there was always talk about getting cars on track and building cars that would eventually be used on track the reality was that hardly anyone had actually driven their cars (at speed) on a full size road race track. Yes there were a couple but very very few and most of those were owned by companies not individuals. Heck, most of the cars owned by forum members didn't even run! So I wondered, "Where's the LATERAL-G content?"

It's several years later now, and there are more cars being used on track but in comparison to the number of members on the forum the percentage of those who actually use their car on full size tracks is still very small. I stopped inviting people from forums to road track days because no one has ever showed up. In the past 6 years there was only one track day I went to where any other PT/G-machine type cars showed up. I put 2 wheels off twice last year and 4 wheels off once, how many members even had their car on a track? Nevermind pushing the limits! Not very many.


I have to applaud people like Bill Howell for getting more people to take their cars out and actually drive them in some type of event. Without the leadership, time, and money invested by people like Bill we wouldn't have the rising popularity of the events geared toward the PT/G-machine crowd. This is a good thing and I've been hoping it'll get some people to step up and bring their cars out to track days. It would be fun to run with a bunch of 60's and 70's style cars instead of the typical modern cars I run with at track days.

If someone here owns a Prius but has never been on a full size track, take the Prius! You'll learn how to stay on "the line" better, and more quickly than with a huge horsepower car. Danes probably right, a Miata with a good driver could spank most of the car/driver forum members on most road tracks. I'll be the first to admit more than a few passed me when I started! (now only occasionally! LOL) If you take the Prius it'll really get you to want to bring your PT/G-machine out there!

You don't NEED big power, or NEED big brakes, or NEED huge rubber, or NEED less weight, or NEED the latest trick suspension, to get out on track. The simple truth is that a stock ordinary car is better than most people are on track until they get some instruction and track time. Got a sporty daily driver? Take the next 500 bucks you were going to spend on your project car and use it to go to a HPDE event weekend at a road track. You'll have a blast and come away a much better driver!

I rented a 4 dr 4 cylinder Cobalt with an automatic and ran it at Road Atlanta one weekend. I learned a lot driving what would be considered a "momentum" car and by the end of the weekend I could drive almost the whole track with the pedal to the floor lifting only 5 times each lap. And yes they do have a speed limiter, it's at 99 MPH! The next time I took my Firebird I was smoother on the track.

This forum along with similar forums seem to be becoming more and more about what "looks" like a car that can perform on track, rather than cars that are actually going to be used on track. There's more chatter about car shows and stance than track days and what tires work best.


John you word this all better than me. I come across as combative and aggressive and I'm the same way in person. Some people I rub the wrong way I guess. I guess its the competitor in me. I hate seeing all these amazing cars not being driven like they were built for.

I feel the same way at pebble beach and any cruise night as well. All these beautiful cars we rarely see that get polished monthly, rubbed with a diaper, and brought to a cruise night and driven 35mph the entire time.

I just want to see the cars driven, and the smiles of the owners after.

Some people collect, some build, some drive. We're all here for the same thing and I don't intend to offend anyone beyond a little garage ribbing and giving someone a hard time. I do it in person as well, and its not meant to offend.

I too am done inviting pro-touring and latg members to events. I'm real bummed I'm still laid out from surgery right now because I'd like to go down to El Toro just to shake some hands and enjoy the fun. I even asked Dick Guldstrand to drive the car for me, but he is dealing with family health issues. That would have been an absolute hoot.

Pozzi vs. Guldstrand sure would be a hoot for us all. :thumbsup:

The wilwood issues on my car are sorted out today, but I'm not feeling up to driving just quite yet. I'd love to drive down, but I think its just foolish and would likely cause me more harm than good. I need to recover.

Again, hope I don't offend anyone by my opinions, and I know I can come across as an asshole. I can do so in person as well, but I always have a smile on my face and its all in good fun.

Just ribbing amongst car folks.

[rogue]

While I have to say I walk the middle ground I'll sum it up pretty simply. I had folks from three different churches stop by my house this month.(Man, what the hell!) Cars are no different than religion. We all have different beliefs in what makes for an ideal car. Clearly Dane is the guy that loves to race and you won't catch polishing his wheels on Sunday morning. Dave is the guy that takes everything to the extreme. He polishes on his car on Sunday morning but believes in beating on it to his potential. I respect both of you guys but your not on the same page.

I have an idea, you can polish my car while I drive yours. Deal!? :lol:

One of these days I need to buy some wax. I don't own any :rofl:

[monza]

One of these days I need to buy some wax. I don't own any :rofl:

You'll be happy to know I like to drive mine.

When we meet I'll bring you some wax... I have all kinds.:rolleyes: Todd was right. My pre track schedule on host check every thing, off host- wash it- beat the piss out of it- wrench or wash depends on the beating.

[clill]

"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent"'...
Or just maybe HP is high because we are hp junkies. I love torque. Evan at the sacrifice of not being as drivable on the track, I get a big grin when a car pulls like a freight train. But for some weird reason you feel the need to say it is because we have no talent. My friend Stielow is building a high hp Camaro.. I'm sure it is because of his lack of driver talent.

[rogue]

"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent"'...
Or just maybe HP is high because we are hp junkies. I love torque. Evan at the sacrifice of not being as drivable on the track, I get a big grin when a car pulls like a freight train. But for some weird reason you feel the need to say it is because we have no talent. My friend Stielow is building a high hp Camaro.. I'm sure it is because of his lack of driver talent.

You do realize I included myself in that comment as "lack of driver talent"? I too get a big grin at torque. Any fool with a lot of horsepower can unleash fury on the straights, but to maintain that speed through the turns and keep your momentum up is a totally different ball of wax. The "point and shoot" driving styles we see at good guys autox events are indicative of that reliance on power, and lack of driver skill. I AM GUILTY OF THIS MYSELF.

Watch mary pozzi rip up the autox for proper driving. Woman is smoooth.



If any of you are feeling personally attacked by me, thats not my intention and I haven't mentioned a single car or person. But apparently my comments hit some real soft spots for some of you.

[camcojb]

If any of you are feeling personally attacked by me, thats not my intention and I haven't mentioned a single car or person. But apparently my comments hit some real soft spots for some of you.
it's the "blanket" statements that people are reacting to. Things like

"HP has nothing to do with being fast."
"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent."

Then you throw a couple jabs in like this:

"I think some people should have bought an AMG SL55 instead of a 1969 camaro though on these forums.

A refined muscle car is cute, I'd like one for my girlfriend."

I know you were just kidding, but sometimes on these message boards the typed word doesn't come out the same as if you were talking directly. I get what you're saying and agree with most all of it, but I also see why the responses are coming in............. :D

Jody

[Stuart Adams]

"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent"'...
Or just maybe HP is high because we are hp junkies. I love torque. Evan at the sacrifice of not being as drivable on the track, I get a big grin when a car pulls like a freight train. But for some weird reason you feel the need to say it is because we have no talent. My friend Stielow is building a high hp Camaro.. I'm sure it is because of his lack of driver talent.

Xactly. There is alot more fun driving situations that with alot of torque are super fun, than just at the track. Higher hp is definately happening, and alows for more fun when u want it. 10" tire up front has also been great. Mark's car will kick some serios butt, and not only because he can drive.

[fleetus macmullitz]

But apparently my comments hit some real soft spots for some of you.

That is a very condescending statement.

[rogue]

That is a very condescending statement.

I love you, here is a flower :lol:

[rogue]

it's the "blanket" statements that people are reacting to. Things like

"HP has nothing to do with being fast."
"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent."

Then you throw a couple jabs in like this:

"I think some people should have bought an AMG SL55 instead of a 1969 camaro though on these forums.

A refined muscle car is cute, I'd like one for my girlfriend."

I know you were just kidding, but sometimes on these message boards the typed word doesn't come out the same as if you were talking directly. I get what you're saying and agree with most all of it, but I also see why the responses are coming in............. :D

Jody

People also seem to be forgetting they are in a TRACK thread. Where comments such as:

"HP has nothing to do with being fast."
"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent."

Actually apply. In track situations both of those comments are true at every track day across the nation. If people are offended by them, its because they've never hit the track and if they have, never had any instruction. Those are instructors words, not mine. I'm just repeating what I've been taught and seen to be true AT THE TRACK.

The AMG comment and the girlfriend were clearly jokes. :thumbsup:

[camcojb]

People also seem to be forgetting they are in a TRACK thread. Where comments such as:

"HP has nothing to do with being fast."
"HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent."

Actually apply. In track situations both of those comments are true at every track day across the nation. If people are offended by them, its because they've never hit the track and if they have, never had any instruction. Those are instructors words, not mine. I'm just repeating what I've been taught and seen to be true AT THE TRACK.

The AMG comment and the girlfriend were clearly jokes. :thumbsup:

so hp has nothing to do with being fast......................... :D on an autocross I'd agree, but on a road course with equal drivers and cars, the guy with more power will definitely have an advantage. I understand what you're saying, the driver is the biggest issue, and a good driver can go fast in anything. However, to say hp has no influence in how fast he is, the same driver in a 350 hp 69 Camaro and a 600 hp 69 Camaro is going to turn better lap times with more power on anything with room to run.

Not to beat a dead horse, but here's an example. Don't mean to drag Mark into this, but since we're friends and I've ridden with him on road courses, I'm gonna drag him in anyway. If HP has nothing to do with being faster why is he building an 800 hp Camaro, instead of the much cheaper stock LS7 500 hp car he's done before? Because he wants to win, and he knows the extra power WILL be faster on a road course................ ;)


With that, since it's so far off thread I'm going to close this.

Jody