My car is sitting tilted and I cant find out why!!!! [Archive]

DRJDVM's '69

03-20-2010, 05:25 PM

To re-fresh everyone's memory.. I nailed a tire/rim on the way back from Goodguys in 2009..
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=19936

So I got the rim replaced....took it to an alignment shop.... they said everything was pretty close to the original alignment I had them do before....and everything visually looked okay. So according to them nothing was bent.

But I still had one issue....... my rag joint was always very close to a header tube and now it was really scraping. After trying to grind it back, I just ended up replacing it with a u-joint. That solved the clearence issue.

But I noticed it looked like my car tilted alittle to the driver side... the side I hit the wheel on. I messed with a little before winter and then got caught up with the Cuda and blew it off.

Well now I finally looked into it some more...... the front driver sits a good 1/2 lower than the pass.... the driver rear sits almost and inch lower....WTF ??

If I place the front up on jackstands, placed just behind the body mount near the firewall...and let the front suspension hang.... all the wheelwells match side to side.

With the front suspension hanging and on the bumpstops, the driver spindle is 1/2 higher

Every other conceivable thing I compare side to side is within 1/4 inch side to side. With the suspension hanging on the bumpstops I can jiggle the driver side spring just alittle... the pass is rock solid. It looks and feels like the springs are in the pockets and the same post side to side....

The door gaps, hood gaps all apprear to be unchanged.....

So WTF.... I'm stumped. The only thing I can think of is an issue with the spring. If something were bent that bad to let the whole side of the car sit lower I would have expected the alignment to be pretty jacked....or the body panels to be off.

I keep coming back to the ragjoint....it was rubbing but I cant find anything on the frame that looks or feels or measures bent

If the alignment tells me that nothing in the suspension was bent.....what else could be casuing the tilt?

Romulus

03-20-2010, 07:06 PM

ouch.

I'll get the stupid questions out of the way.

Are you pretty confident the car was level before you hit the tire?
Is it possible the front shock itself was damaged?
Can you swap the spring/shock/coil left/right and see if it changes the height measurements?

This would drive me nuts.....good luck.

DRJDVM's '69

03-20-2010, 07:57 PM

Yeah the car was pretty level before. I've even gone through all my pix and can see where the tire markings/letters line up with the wheelwell opening..... its definitely lower.....and I'm pretty anal, and the car defiinitely tilts in the back and I would have noticed...its not hard to miss...

I hadnt thought about swapping side to side...... I've been running through my head the stuff to change....UCA, LCA, springs, shocks......

Short of the entire car being twisted....what else effects the ride height....springs.....do shock have much influence? I didnt think so, but its crossed my mind....

I'm still confused on how much more dramatic the difference is in the back....but raise and level the front subframe and the back sits perfect

70rs

03-20-2010, 08:15 PM

Ned,
Check every point that made contact with the wheel you hit under the car.
Is it possible it hit a mounting point on your suspension somewhere? I don't know what rear set up you run but if it made it that far back it could have bent something back there as well.
Is your front wheel still centered front to back in the wheel well? Could it have bent the spindle itself? Could it have impacted the steering gear somewhere including put enough pressure on the ragjoint through the linkages? Obviously something is bent or been relocated by force. Check all of your mounting points. Shock mounts, steering parts,steering box,steering column(might have been shifted and that would explain the rag joint moving).

I wish I was there so I could look myself. I am very curious now what could have caused this.

EDIT: I just read the thread. I was also cited for hitting a stationary object (5 gallon bucket of roofing tar). If it had been moving...not my fault. They (insurance co State farm) that I did not hit the family of 5 next to me or the concrete center divider and total cars or kill someone. 2400.00 later in damage to the underside of my car including the AC condensor and radiator and steering parts and body work it was all good. Except the increase in my rates!!

Denvervet

03-20-2010, 08:21 PM

JRouche

03-20-2010, 08:44 PM

Not sure what kind of suspension you are running and this is another one of those too obvious things. Do you have any rubber control arm or leaf spring bushings? If so I'd loosen then up with weight on suspension and retighten

Hey, now that sounds like a good check. If you have captured bushings (rubber) then maybe you twisted the bushing in relation to the tabs. I like that check. Good call. JR

The WidowMaker

03-20-2010, 09:24 PM

not sure what you have for shocks and springs, but you said you could wiggle the ds spring, but not the ps. if the ps has more height to it, it would of course cause that side to sit higher.

i just kind of went through the same thing. while measuring for the wheels, i had the car up off the ground and supported on jackstands. the rear quarters were off over 1/2". it ended up being that i used a mixed set of jackstands at the front, and although they are the same brand, one was 1/2" off. so, all im saying is it could be either at the front or rear that causing both to be off.

DRJDVM's '69

03-21-2010, 01:33 PM

I've gone through every suspension point I can find. They all seem symmetrical. I cant find anyhting bent, cracked or moved.

The only visible damage to the car was the rim. As soon as I got home with the car, I checked to see if the wheel was centered and it was. There was no indictation that the "bad" wheel got to the back suspension. I'm pretty sure I just clipped it enough to bend my rim....no body damage at all. I guess it would be like hitting a big ass pothole....

I have Global West UCA, stock LCA, poly bushings in both, Hotchkis drop springs, stock spindle. The rear is Hotchkis drop leaf springs.... Koni shock all around.

I'm trying to think of this from a pure geometry standpoint..... if any part of the suspension was bent enough to allow the car to drop that much....wouldnt that have been revealed with the alignment check? I would think the aligment would have been way off.....and it wasnt. And 4 wheels were used in the aligment. So the ride height on one side dropped but the aligment didnt change much...

So what holds the car at its ride height...springs, and the mount points of the suspension...isnt that about it?

So what could change the ride height but not the alignment?

I moved the driver side spring around a bit and tapped the end into the groove alittle more....I got it to rotate maybe 3/4 inch and it feel tight now. I swapped the shocks from side to side. I havent had time to drop the car on the ground and see if that changed anything. My gut is saying it wont.....

My plan is to measure EVERYTHING again with the front hanging.... then drop it to the ground and measure everything again...

The big drop in the back is wierd....raise the front and it completely levels again.....

aany001

03-21-2010, 03:02 PM

As for the rag joint touching I was thinking maybe the column bolts are a little loose causing the column to slightly slide down and changing the angles of the steering shaft.Does that make any sense???? But for the car being on an angle I am lost cause it seems you have checked everything.Sorry man

z4me69

03-21-2010, 05:33 PM

i had the same problem and it was the hotchkis drop leaf springs. will never buy another part from them lets just say dealing with their customer service wasn't fun.

DRJDVM's '69

03-21-2010, 06:18 PM

I've had the same suspension for the last 7 years and it has been perfect....until I hit that wheel on the freeway.

69Camaro

03-21-2010, 08:31 PM

Random thought ... Is it possible that the force of the impact transfered through the subframe and damaged or twisted/bent a subframe to body mount?

Vegas69

03-21-2010, 08:48 PM

Your steering box getting closer points to a tweaked frame. How else could it get closer to the headers after the collision? The impact would've created a twisting force on the upper and lower control arm. Check to see if your spring pockets are in the same position. You could also swap springs side to side. What changed with your alignment?

David Pozzi

03-22-2010, 12:25 AM

Maybe the subframe moved, but can't see it changing height.

dhutton

03-22-2010, 06:46 AM

Are all your subframe bushings intact and compressed the same amount? Strange things can happen when they get out of whack.

Don

Vegas69

03-22-2010, 07:06 AM

Good point Dave, there is enough slop in the motor mounts to allow the subrame to twist.

jy211

03-22-2010, 07:09 AM

maybe try a rubber spring spacer on the dr side and see if that sets your car back even. If it does, maybe a front spring is sagging. Have you checked to see if the spring could have shifted?

GregWeld

03-22-2010, 08:22 AM

Springs settling - you drive it alone most of the time - you're a pretty good sized guy - so I'm betting you just hadn't noticed the settling over time... and the spring/springs on the driver side should be compared to the passenger side.

Pull both front springs out and my bet is the ds is 1/2 shorter than the ps.

I just happened to rebuild all the front suspension on the Nomad last week - since the engine is out and all the front sheetmetal is off... decided to double and triple check my spring weight and height etc. Went down to Art Morrisons shop and ended up replacing my 9" 450# QA1 spring and coilover with STRANGE 9" 550# and their coilover.... My 9" QA1 measured 8 3/4" free length - and the Strange was a perfect 9"

DRJDVM's '69

03-22-2010, 08:52 AM

The rag joint was VERY close before..but after it would scrape the header. So we're talking less that 1/4 inch movement tops.

My body mounts are all solid Global West units. They all look the same and the floor around them looks and feels okay.

Yes I weigh in at around 220lbs, but I just cant buy that the car has settled so much as to make the rear sit an inch lower on one side. I'm not that fat Greg !!! :) Its quite easily visually noticeable in the back...an inch difference is pretty big. I think I would have noticed.

The subframe alignment holes are still lined up. My car also has welded in subframe connectors, that attach to a 6 point cage. I would think that a control arm would give before the frame twisted....

So this AM, I jack up that back of the car, and put jackstands under the rear axle tubes, so the car is resting on the rear suspension...... the front in still on jackstands right at the body mounts by the firewall, front suspension hanging.

Everything matches side to side within 1/4 inch......

My next plan is to place the jackstands near the front frame mounts and let the front suspension hang and see what happens. Measure every point on the frame and car I can think of and then drop the car on all 4 again. If that doesnt work, I'll pull the springs....not a hard job, but just kinda a PITA.

GregWeld

03-22-2010, 09:10 AM

That and check your TIRE PRESSURE -- they all the same??

Trust me - it's the springs - they're the only thing holding up the car.

Vegas69

03-22-2010, 09:45 AM

Springs don't explain a steering joint that is now closer unless it's just a coincidence which happens. Someone mentioned steering column nuts and I agree. See if they are tight. If you column slipped a little or anything in the steering shaft due to the blundt force, you could be chasing 2 problems, not one. The crimp housing at the firewall could easily cause it as well.

GregWeld

03-22-2010, 10:08 AM

Right Todd.... the "hit" may have shoved the steering column toward the driver a 1/4" or so... and that's a completely different issue from ride height...

Frame tweak would need to be checked with "X" style measurements for squareness... you've got to measure CORNER TO CORNER measurements.... up and down and front to back won't get 'er done.

DRJDVM's '69

03-23-2010, 12:52 PM

The steering joint issue is all fixed... I got a new column and put a u-joint in. The column was original and really needed to be replaced anyway.

I'm convinced its the spring in some way too.... I just cant see how something else could be so tweaked and the alignment not be WAY off...

Plan is to pull the springs, take a look and maybe swap side to side and see what happens.

aany001

03-23-2010, 07:59 PM

I think your right about the springs...my car sat a little off with my new suspension and I was worried the body shop welded up my car twisted!!!! But I took out my front springs and swapped left to right and the car now sits low the opposite side.I swapped them out with another known good set and Im back in business.I hope you figure this out soon.:thumbsup:
Steve

70rs

03-24-2010, 05:01 PM

DRJDVM's '69

03-25-2010, 05:12 PM

Well today I pulled both front springs...they looked and measured exactly the same. So I swapped them side to side...... I was very anal about making sure they sat in the pockets right at the "stop" in the groove at the top.....

Not as good as I had hoped....... it now sits about 1/2 inch different from side to side :( ....And thats with the car just dropped to the floor after the swap.... I havent driven it yet...so that diff may improve or worsen...we'll see

Visually it doesnt look as "tilted" as it did before, which is better than nothing. I checked my original manual and in the ride height section, they list the ride height and state that it should be +/- 1/2 inch side to side. So maybe the current ride height with the factory tolerances is as good as it gets.....

I cant say 100% that the car MEASURED equal side to side before, but I know it didnt LOOK tilted before. As long as the car doesnt look tilted enough that it catches my eye all the time, I may just live with it....

I plan on driving it around tomorrow, get the suspension alittle use and see what happens.

GregWeld

03-25-2010, 05:22 PM

Well -- at least you eliminated the springs as the culprit... and that's "progress".

Would be interesting to see if "others" have the same 1/2" off when measured... like a factory "stack" issue as in - wheel lip high on the passenger side by a 1/4" and "low" on the driver side a 1/4".... I would doubt that - but you never know.

I didn't go back and re-read the thread - can't remember if you said you measured the CL of the spindle "weighted" to check to see if the spindles are at the same point side to side.

HEY WAIT!! I know!! You live in California -- maybe a recent earthquake tilted you garage floor... :rofl:

The WidowMaker

03-25-2010, 06:30 PM

sway bars? unhook them and see if it makes a difference. has the car ever been on scales? check corner weights and see what you find.

DRJDVM's '69

03-25-2010, 11:18 PM

CL?
Not sure what you mean....

JRouche

03-26-2010, 08:07 PM

Trust me - it's the springs - they're the only thing holding up the car.

Come on Greg, you know thats not so :) You have another spring in there... Long bar that reaches from one side to the other.. And he doesnt have them anymore but there is another spring in most cars. That lil piece of rubber that separates the control arm from the mounts. JR

JRouche

03-26-2010, 08:09 PM

CL?
Not sure what you mean....

I think he wants you to check the Center Line (CL) of the spindles to see if they are on the same plane. Dunno.. JR

JRouche

03-26-2010, 08:29 PM

Not as good as I had hoped....... it now sits about 1/2 inch different from side to side :( ....And thats with the car just dropped to the floor after the swap.... I havent driven it yet...so that diff may improve or worsen...we'll see

Different how? Worse? Or 1/2" on the the passengers side now? If it transfered to the passengers side then YEA!! You found the culprit. Wont know till you drive it and settle the suspension.

Visually it doesnt look as "tilted" as it did before, which is better than nothing.

I cant say 100% that the car MEASURED equal side to side before, but I know it didnt LOOK tilted before. As long as the car doesnt look tilted enough that it catches my eye all the time, I may just live with it....

Whats funny is we get to micro examining our cars after a tramatic event like that and all of a sudden we see things that might have been there all the time and it just looks more amplified.

I think you did good. You corrected the steering. and are looking at the entire suspension now and after all is said and done you will be comfortable with the end results. You will have examined the entire suspension after a hard contact and you are confident all is secure and safe. You are able to get a proper alignment and you have done everything that anyone could be expected to do. Good for you.

I have seen folks take a curb at speed and just replace the ruined tires and rims without examining the under carriage. Who knows what broken parts they are driving on. Id feel comfortable driving your car at high speed and not worrying about the hit you took after all the work you have done to make sure it is secure. Great job!!!! JR

thedude327

03-27-2010, 07:20 AM

How about posting some pics showing the problem with the stance?
Might shed some light on the problem...........

Paul

GregWeld

03-27-2010, 09:34 PM

JR ---

Thanks for responding --- Yes CL -- Center Line.

I've been busy hauling from Seattle to Medford, Oregon and back - picked up a buddies new 32 Ford Roadster - so couldn't respond to Neds question.

DRJDVM's '69

04-06-2010, 08:43 PM

Well I spoke too soon.... though it was all good enough

Went out this PM and the car looks tilted again..... about 1 inch diff from side to side in the rear.....WTF....

Guess I keep messing with it.....

GM Muscle

04-06-2010, 08:48 PM

See if any local bodyshops have an electronic frame machine. It'll tell you if anything is out of spec..

GregWeld

04-06-2010, 09:21 PM

Ned -- Can I tell ya something....

COILOVERS

:>)

DRJDVM's '69

04-07-2010, 08:01 PM

I'd love to do coilovers......but I dont think they are a "bolt on deal"....I'm not going to do a bunch of mods to get them to fit etc. If I'm wrong.... I'm all ears.....

GM Muscle

04-08-2010, 05:46 AM

qa1 sells a "bolt in" type for our cars...

Vegas69

04-08-2010, 06:53 AM

That's what Frame draggin Doug has on his.

96z28ss

04-08-2010, 09:42 AM

Its got to be the shocks. You need a set of new ones.

DRJDVM's '69

04-08-2010, 09:58 AM

I swapped shocks and front springs from side to side and its still the same.....

I've got a call in to the insurance adjuster. I think I'm gonna see if I can find a collision shop with a digital rack that can check the car out....one that I trust with the car, which is gonna be hard.

I could easily put in a spring spacer, or do something to "compensate" for the tilt, but I'd rather find the source than
hide the "issue". I've looked over a bunch of pix I have of the car with good shots of the tire/wheelwell relationship and it was definitely different than it is now.

If all else fails, I'll do the coilovers.... I didnt realize they have bolt in ones for the stock subframe.... I have GW uppers, but stock lowers.

Josh69

04-08-2010, 11:28 AM

I think Fesler has a bolt in kit now too. There is a post on PT about it. Afco's and QA1's combined with remote reservoir. :thumbsup:

FWIW, I have nearly the same exact set-up as you, and my car has always been lower on the driver's side by 1/2". Drives me nuts. I wish it was the other way around, can't imagine how it looks with my 225lb ass in it as well. Crooked as a politician probably. I have Hotchkis 2" drop BBC springs in front, DSE 2" drop leafs in back, Koni's all around, Speedtech upper, and stock lower with poly bushings, welded in sf connectors and solid GW bushings. My car is dialed in, square as can be, new spring perches in the back, etc. Just the way it is. If you can get to .5", I think that's all you'll get out of it.

I want to switch to coilovers also, mainly because my car isn't low enough in front and it'll maybe fix my tilt also. Sometimes, you just gotta know when to hold em...know when to fold em...

Getting back to the subframe though. I have my suspicions about it for sure. The column mount doesn't really allow side to side movement, and even if it did, the rag joint is a long, long ways away from those bolts, like 2'. For you to move the rag joint 1/4", you'd literally have to have moved the column over about 2-3 inches (if the rag joint is the fulcrum) which doesn't seem likely. The only way for that rag joint to touch the header, is if you move that frame rail holding the steering box closer. If it was bent up a hair, that would effectively raise the spring pocket, thus lowering the car.

The alignment holes aren't necessarily going to show a slight twist in the frame, they will only prove that it's square in relation to the body/cowl on a horizontal plane.

Maybe take a plumb bob and line and see how far the tips of the frame are from the ground, both with and without the suspension loaded, making sure the car is level front to back and side to side.

1HTBRRD

04-08-2010, 12:31 PM

This is probably way off, but shortly after I bought my 69 I noticed it too was sagging on the driver's side. I replaced all suspension with the hotchkis TVS system and it was still sagging. It was not until I cut out the rear panel and replaced it that I noticed the sag had gone away. I hope your unibody is not slighly swisted like mine was.

If it makes you feel any better, I found my axle tubes on the original rear end were dented on the top where they had hit the rear frame rails cause someone had probably done their best dukes of hazzard jump with it...I'm pretty sure this is what caused the twist in my unibody.

MWCC

04-08-2010, 02:54 PM

Could one or both of your springs be clocked wrong? That would bind a spring and cause a ride height difference.

96z28ss

04-08-2010, 04:08 PM

Sell the camaro! that way you can finish the Cuda.

GregWeld

04-08-2010, 04:10 PM

Sell the camaro! that way you can finish the Cuda.

Which one!! :rofl:

96z28ss

04-08-2010, 04:13 PM

Which one!! :rofl:

Well sell the one that is making him stress. The other one is just a dust collector and isn't tilted.

GregWeld

04-08-2010, 04:15 PM

I'd sell 'em both! Everybody has one... :rofl:

DRJDVM's '69

04-08-2010, 05:23 PM

Its crossed my mind :)....but its such a bad time to sell a car.....

DRJDVM's '69

06-28-2010, 01:46 PM

Finally got a chance to take the car to a collision shop with a digital frame table. Should have a report this afternoon...

On first inspection, the guy is pretty sure the driver side frame rail is probably "rolled in" alittle........ with the impact the suspension bottoms out.....bump stops slams into the spring pocket and the whole thing just bends in as a unit. That all makes sense....rag joint closer to header etc etc...... since everything moves as a unit, its hard to visually see where its bent.

If it is bent, its not worth trying to mess with the stock subframe......so as long as I can get the insurance company to agree, its time for an aftermarket subframe :)....so there may be an "+" side to all this....but a huge PITA to take everything apart. Especially since I have the Cuda taking so much of my time.

So....DSE, SpeedTech, AME......hum..... decisions, decisions......

I'd like to do it in a way that I dont have to chnage the BS on my wheels, swap brakes , headers etc etc....as simple of a "pull out the stock, transfer some parts over and put in the new" as possible.

DRJDVM's '69

06-28-2010, 03:56 PM

Well the verdict is in....there are 3 hairline cracks and the frame is definitely "rolled in" at the top.

Now that the car has sat awhile, the crack have a small amount of rust in them and you can see them way better. They are hard to see with the suspension hanging, but if you push up the control arm to its max, you can see them open up just a tad. The tech is pretty convinced that the frame is bent inward too.

So....new frame it is.....now I just need to convince the insurance Co to let me step up to a DSE or SpeedTech set-up :)

More work...oh joy....

GregWeld

06-28-2010, 05:02 PM

If it's insurance covered - let them pay for the swap! Start getting bids for the labor etc to swap it out... have them cut you a check for the bid amount - then do as you want to...

Just because it's messed up -- doesn't mean you have to do the work! And or - since they're NOT going to pay for an upgrade - the difference in saving the labor by you doing the work yourself - might get you the upgraded sub - making it "worth your while" to do the labor.

That... or maybe to save "summer" cruising - you could have the cracks ground out - welded and fish plated to get you by 'til winter sets in.

DRJDVM's '69

06-28-2010, 05:32 PM

We'll see... I have sent out some PM's to get some idea of the labor charges etc. Anyone with shops in North or South CA that want to submit a bid, that would be awesome... the more stuff I have to show the insurance company the better.

The bare stock AMD frame is $1600 plus shipping..... then add tubular UCA/LCA, spindles ( DSE/Speedtech/ ATS stuff....with enough impact/stress to bend a frame, I dont trust the current pieces I have in there now), adds another $2500-3000.... so in the neighborhood of $4200...then add the labor.

As for the cracks.....not very easy to get to and the bottom line is that I just wouldnt feel comfortable driving it, even with a "repair".... plus, its still bent and the car looks funny......so this summer is over for this car......

Musclerodz

06-29-2010, 09:29 AM