Toyota's " Death Pedal " autopsy

[Bow Tie 67]

Here is a link to the difference between the two pedals Toyota uses. My teenage daughters drive a Toyota and I made sure they know what to do for a stuck throttle pedal.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/statusainthood/BehemothBAND.jpg

[buickfunnycar.com]

Pedal assembly is not the issue and Toyota knows it...and has known about it for years.

[Bow Tie 67]

Pedal assembly is not the issue and Toyota knows it...and has known about it for years.


Enlighten me, I can see the pedal being an issue, but what else can cause this?

[Swain]

I have a 07 Tundra my pedal works great.

Love my truck

[buickfunnycar.com]

Enlighten me, I can see the pedal being an issue, but what else can cause this?

I'd be willing to lay odds it's an electrical issue and not the pedal assembly,just like it wasn't the floormats like Toyota wanted you to believe.

Give it time,it'll all come out...

[Bow Tie 67]

I'd be willing to lay odds it's an electrical issue and not the pedal assembly,just like it wasn't the floormats like Toyota wanted you to believe.

Give it time,it'll all come out...


This is true it will come out. But I doubt its electrical, there would be many more complaints. Electrical interference, maybe..........

[Vegas69]

I'd place my money on electrical. The throttle assembly tells the pcm it's at WOT and off to the races. Every part malfunctions. IMO where Toyota dropped the ball was having a back up plan. Most manufacturers have a safety net that won't allow throttle and brake at the same time. At least not above a certain speed. I read they are updating the PCM's to do exactly that, any brake input above say 30mph automatically cut's the throttle to idle.

[monza]

I'd be willing to lay odds it's an electrical issue and not the pedal assembly,just like it wasn't the floormats like Toyota wanted you to believe.

Give it time,it'll all come out...

What kind of odds, I might take that bet.:unibrow:

The floormat excuse was weak, but this pedal flaw and explanation seems plausible? If not they are digging a pretty deep hole...


oh... looks like we may need a bookie for the betting

[buickfunnycar.com]

I'd place my money on electrical. The throttle assembly tells the pcm it's at WOT and off to the races. Every part malfunctions. IMO where Toyota dropped the ball was having a back up plan. Most manufacturers have a safety net that won't allow throttle and brake at the same time. At least not above a certain speed. I read they are updating the PCM's to do exactly that, any brake input above say 30mph automatically cut's the throttle to idle.

Ford's systems currently default to idle at any sign of a problem,not WOT like Toyota's seem to do.

[James OLC]

The inherant flaw to all of these new cars that park themselves, check your blind spots for you and apply the brakes because you're obviously not paying attention is that they rely on a machine (ok - what should be a smart machine) and not good old fashioned driver input and output. The more computerized systems that are integrated into the design of new cars, the more frequent failures of those same systems will become. They aren't fool proof and never can be and unfortunately I think that this is just the tip of the iceburg - for Toyota and everyone else.

If this is, to some extent, a software issue (as I understand it may be with the new prius's) then is should not be a tough fix. If I understand correctly, the factory Ford drive by wire is triple redundant - something like that should be an easy to incorporate solution. If however, the answer is IF speed >30 AND brake = yes THEN throttle = idle then the issue in not software - it's a hardare bandage (and a big difference from John's Ford example of IF fault THEN idle - which seems like a logical path). I know that I for one wouldn't want to drive something that cut my throttle if I hit the brakes just because of my speed.

I don't know if the truth will ever come out on this one - it's become something else entirely in a lot of ways - but it does make you think a bit about how much control we give or are prepared to give to a computer...

[chr2002ca]

And if you're driving a 2010 Toyota Prius, then you might have problems stopping according to the latest new article today. Combine the WOT problem with this latest brake problem and you could be in for one hell of a ride on a bumpy road. Not that I mind seeing a Prius totaled, I just feel bad for the drivers.

Serves 'em right for using freakin' software to control the brakes.

[buickfunnycar.com]

And if you're driving a 2010 Toyota Prius, then you might have problems stopping according to the latest new article today. Combine the WOT problem with this latest brake problem and you could be in for one hell of a ride on a bumpy road. Not that I mind seeing a Prius totaled, I just feel bad for the drivers.

Serves 'em right for using freakin' software to control the brakes.

I understand they are starting to offer Toyota's with and w/o steering wheels since they seem useless on a car that can't start or stop...:rofl:

[Fluid Power]

Electrical huh? and they are putting in shims to buy time? Whew, seems like a HUGE gamble on Toyota's part if it is an electrical issue.

Darren

[jimbo]

He said "Death PEDAL" not "Death METAL":beavis:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/statusainthood/BehemothBAND.jpg

[tones2SS]

I'm thinking it's more than just the gas pedal as well.
They are in big trouble either way. I do believe there are a couple of really big lawsuits against them.
Not to mention the whole other issue of the Prius having problems with it's brakes. DOUBLE WHAMMY!!!!:_paranoid

[Bow Tie 67]

GM electronic throttle system will go to idle also, but that is if is sees a difference in pedal input vs throttle body movement. If memory serves me correct its a .3 second difference and Bam!! your at idle. I know from experience. I'm thinking toyota has the same type of fail safe, so a sticking throttle pedal will do just this. How does the computer know that its stuck and not your foot planted on the floor.

Now the way morons drive, Green light Go, means on the floor to pass the guy in front, so at the next light your one car length ahead. I can see where mashing the dam pedal can stress the plastic pedal assy and cause wear / binding with age. Electrical I highly doubt it, I'm sure they spent millions designing the electrical side of this equation.

[GregWeld]

HAL! Hal! You're not being nice Hal! ... would you please return control of the ship Hal....

[GregWeld]

And if you're driving a 2010 Toyota Prius, then you might have problems stopping according to the latest new article today. Combine the WOT problem with this latest brake problem and you could be in for one hell of a ride on a bumpy road. Not that I mind seeing a Prius totaled, I just feel bad for the drivers.

Serves 'em right for using freakin' software to control the brakes.

I'd like to put a Prius in the back of my big black dually - and take it for a ride...

One time I was at a gas station - filling up the dually - some clown comes in driving a Prius and starts mouthing off about all the fuel he's saving -- to which I said "THANK YOU 'cause I'm going to be using all of the fuel you saved!" :woot:

[chr2002ca]

Greg, you always crack me up man! :lol:

Yep, that f'ing Prius leaves a larger carbon footprint on this planet than my SUV due to the complexity of building and shipping its components in North America, Europe, and Asia. It's a dirty little secret the tree huggers won't tell you about. It's a shame they put brakes on them at all.

How rediculous is it that you need to download a patch to get the brakes working better. :lol:

[GregWeld]

Chris ---

Wait til those huggers find out that they have to buy a new battery... and what's left of the old one is about as toxic and it gets!

[98ssnova]

And this is why i will only buy GM products I have never had a problem with them. I wish that Toyota would own up to it if they did make a mistake at least that would show me they are human and care about the customer's that they put in danger. I have drove and rode in Toyota's line nice lineup but not for me. To me they felt cheap. And now i am really glad i bought GM. Ok off my soap box.

[XcYZ]

It's getting real ugly...


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/revolving-door-us-safety-agency-toyota-representative/story?id=9747342



Federal safety investigators agreed to exclude reports of the most serious cases of alleged "runaway Toyotas" after the intervention of a former safety official hired to be a Washington, D.C. representative of Toyota, an ABC News investigation has found....


...internal government memos and court testimony analyzed by ABC News show the federal investigations were extremely limited in scope, after negotiations involving former safety investigators who had been recruited to work for Toyota's Washington, D.C. office....


...The memorandum was written on March 23, 2004, shortly after the NHTSA official, Scott Yon, met with two former NHTSA colleagues who worked for Toyota, including Chris Santucci, who had left the agency only six months earlier, according to his testimony in a civil lawsuit...


"Longer duration incidents involving uncontrollable acceleration" were deemed to be "not within the scope of this investigation," according to 2004 memorandum...

:willy: :willy:

[ironworks]

With all the driving that I do, I always see a Prius in the fast lane doing 80 plus mph. I really wonder how efficient they are at 80. The electric motor and gas engine have to both be running their little guts outs.

With Toyota be the darling of the media for the past few years it is refreshing to see them turn on them like everyone else.

Boy I sure do miss my good ol throttle "CABLE", man those were the days. All this to save a cable and a return spring.

[BonzoHansen]

Boy I sure do miss my good ol throttle "CABLE", man those were the days. All this to save a cable and a return spring.

plus the extra parts not needed for cruise or traction control (cost, weight, packaging), plus better control over 'torque management' for reduced warranty issues.


although this is making me rethink my want of DBW in my 67.

[buickfunnycar.com]

With all the driving that I do, I always see a Prius in the fast lane doing 80 plus mph...

Isn't that the truth?:lol:

No one ever talks about the battery disposal,what a nightmare that'll be.

[96z28ss]

Im all for bring back the throttle cable.

[legend]

clarkson on the prius (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydvAQ6Y49vc)

[ironworks]

clarkson on the prius (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydvAQ6Y49vc)

Exactly...... Leave it to Top Gear to clear the air.

[69MyWay]

Hey guys, I have been following this very close and also got my hands on both the denso and a CTS pedal. I can confirm what was posted in that first link, however there is a twist.

The CTS pedal I took from a 2008 Camry had a WHITE plastic on the tip of the two teeth that fit into the groove.

Also - the Toyota uses MAGNETS in both pedals to send the signal to the PCM for throttle input.

The CTS uses a pair of banna shaped magnets fixed to the top of the lever. The sensor sits inbetween them. As you press the throttle the magnetic field increases. The Denso pedal does the same thing, but has the magnets fixed in the pivot of the center of the pedal.

Some folks have experimented with putting EMI signals through the cars and were able to raise the RPM as if they were pushing the pedal.

As far as I know, Toyota is the only one using the magnets. GM at least uses a contact sensor (just like the TPS, etc).

Now, for giggles and grins I put the CTS pedal in hot water for an extended amount of time trying to encourage swelling and moisture collection on the drag assembly. Guess what? No drag - no snag, no sticking.

My money is on there being a known problem where the sensor picks up EMI and translates that into throttle request causing the vehicle to race.

Finally - I can say for a fact that if you pump the brake on the 2.4 four banger Camry while holding the throttle down, then try to hold it down...all the vacuum is depleted and the vehicle will overpower the brakes. I'm talking standing on the pedal as hard as you can to the point of bending the seat and it will at first slow, then little by little overpower them and begin to accelerate.

IF you simply hammer the brake ONE TIME and hold it while going wide open, the car will stop. Problem is, in a panic most drivers would end up pumping the pedal and losing all the vacuum assist prior to crashing.

[69MyWay]

Here is a picture of the magnet and sensor.

[69MyWay]

Here you can see the white tip on the assembly.

[James OLC]

The whole "sticking pedal assembly" arguement just does not make sense. There has to be more to it - either in the sensor, the software, or with EMI.

I mean really... if the pedal sticks due to friction (a) your RPMs won't increase to WOT - it would simply stick at part throttle where you were at and (b) you could lift the pedal up and unstick it (at least in principal). And when you did crash (assuming you did) the pedal would be stuck in the position it was in and be pretty easy to identify, document, and show the world.

[Matt@BOS]

Ford's systems currently default to idle at any sign of a problem,not WOT like Toyota's seem to do.

John, do you know more about this? My dad has an '05 Mustang that has in intermittent engine revving problem. It is an auto and when stopped at a light in drive, it has revved up to 2500 rpms on its own, and wanted to go, despite having a foot on the brake. The Ford dealership refuses to look at the idle air control valve, or anything else for that matter, but just recently hooked up a data logging device to the OBDII port.

Matt

[Bow Tie 67]

Here is a picture of the magnet and sensor.

This does look like a good candidate for emi. How does the Denso differ in the magnetic pickup, would you say its less susceptable to emi?

[69MyWay]

This does look like a good candidate for emi. How does the Denso differ in the magnetic pickup, would you say its less susceptable to emi?

Different shaped sensor - but works the same way (all magnets - in the pedal and throttle body).

[buickfunnycar.com]

John, do you know more about this? My dad has an '05 Mustang that has in intermittent engine revving problem. It is an auto and when stopped at a light in drive, it has revved up to 2500 rpms on its own, and wanted to go, despite having a foot on the brake. The Ford dealership refuses to look at the idle air control valve, or anything else for that matter, but just recently hooked up a data logging device to the OBDII port.

Matt

I don't know Matt,but I can ask service for ya.:yes:

I don't believe for a minute the pedal is the main issue here,same as I didn't believe the floormat cover up that preceeded it.

[69MyWay]

I don't know Matt,but I can ask service for ya.:yes:

I don't believe for a minute the pedal is the main issue here,same as I didn't believe the floormat cover up that preceeded it.

I hear ya...but I have seen first hand how the All Weather mat can absolutely jam the pedal. The sad thing is, many of the complaints are coming from people with no mats in the car at all.

I did see one this week that was a fatality. The really sad thing, in a 2009 Camry the owner had the stock carpet and a aftermarket mat stacked on top.

[69MyWay]

Here is a cell phone pic of a Denso.

In this picture, see the green assembly on the left. In the center there is a square opening. There are a pair of magnets embedded in the square. Look at the assembly on the right. The silver round part in the middle is the sensor. As the pedal is pressed the magnets rotate around the sensor. It is a bit off-set so that the magnetic field can increase on the sensor as the pedal is pushed.

I have noted the magnets appear to be stronger in the Denso.

[Fluid Power]

If it is a sensor issue, what is the purpose of installing the metal shim?

Darren

[James OLC]

If it is a sensor issue, what is the purpose of installing the metal shim?

Darren

Dollars vs cents (or sense)

My fear is that if it is a software or sensor issue that there will be a huge over reaction that ends with some stupid law outlawing the modification or alteration of FBW pedals or ECMs across the board.

[69MyWay]

Dollars vs cents (or sense)

My fear is that if it is a software or sensor issue that there will be a huge over reaction that ends with some stupid law outlawing the modification or alteration of FBW pedals or ECMs across the board.

That would be a nightmare in more than one way. Namely, the DBW system is center stage in Active Handling that will be required on ALL new cars sold in the US soon.

They may outlaw magnetic field sensors - if that is what they find to be the problem. That would leave GM, Ford...etc, in the clear since they don't use that technology.

[Fluid Power]

dollars and sense does not answer the question at hand. What is the purpose of doing the recall and installing a shim that "helps reduce friction?" Is it to buy time and fix the EMI problem and then replace all the affected assemblies again?

Darren

[tones2SS]

I'd like to put a Prius in the back of my big black dually - and take it for a ride...

One time I was at a gas station - filling up the dually - some clown comes in driving a Prius and starts mouthing off about all the fuel he's saving -- to which I said "THANK YOU 'cause I'm going to be using all of the fuel you saved!" :woot:

Chris ---

Wait til those huggers find out that they have to buy a new battery... and what's left of the old one is about as toxic and it gets!

I love it Greg!!! That is good stuff.:thumbsup: :cheers:
I, personally would have had some "nice choice words" for the nice fella that mouthed off to you about his Prius.

[bigtyme1]

I'm hoping this is the big break the american builders have been wainting for, Lets hope they take it and run with it. Ford, Chevy or Dodge. I just want the american companies to come back strong.

[Jim Nilsen]

When making my gas pedal for my car I wanted to make the pressure easier and tried adding a return type spring for the pedal. It was a nightmare. But I learned one thing. When you put the pedal down and it sticks, it stays only where it was depressed the most. So how does a pedal all of a sudden increase the throttle more than where it was at the highest throttle position previously all on its own? the springs no matter which side it is on returns the throttle or pedal to a lesser position or leaves it there.

The bushing they are adding only lets the pedal go more freely and the springs would return it easier without sticking and that is all they could do.

I am with you guys that it is in the ecm programming or potentiometer problems.Logic just does not bring it to a spring or sticking problem. The people involved in the accidents I don't believe were ever accelerating at the amount of pedal travel to go as fast as the cars were accelerating to and were, from the way it sounds driving along and the car just takes off.

Now the magnets sound interesting enough to be part of the problem as they could have some kind of effect on the potentiometer that when the springs would be free from tension and it could move the pot on its own merit POSSIBLY?so to speak.

It is going to take more than a bushing to pull them out of this one but it is a good cover for fixing other problems that would cause bigger doubts about the reliablility and saftey of other components and get the car in for that fix.

We will see.

[Bow Tie 67]

Different shaped sensor - but works the same way (all magnets - in the pedal and throttle body).



Ding, ding, ding, my bet would be emi at the TB. Geez on the GM ETB the wiring going to it is separate and shielded to ground, and that is a simple wiper switch assy if I'm not mistaken. I work on aircraft, specifically all the electrical / electronic systems and shielded wiring is used extensively. Why do you think airlines ask you to turn off electronic devices..... a little overkill but better safe than dead.

[GregWeld]

Jim --

These new cars are drive by wire with servo motors etc -- not levers and springs.... you're stuck back with the dinosaurs my friend... :rofl: :rofl:

[Jim Nilsen]

Jim --

These new cars are drive by wire with servo motors etc -- not levers and springs.... you're stuck back with the dinosaurs my friend... :rofl: :rofl:

I think you missed the pic of the pedal torn apart with the springs in it and it seems you missed the point somehow?If the pedal is not a lever and doesn't need a return spring let me know how it comes back to idle?

I was using simple mechanical logic of a basic old school pedal to get your minds to really think about how could it be a sticky pedal? maybe my experience and ability to see the pics of the 2 pedals that have been posted everywhere are just too much info for my eyes these days.

I'll try to more clear next time I try to get you to use your imagination.:thumbsup:

[Jim Nilsen]

Ding, ding, ding, my bet would be emi at the TB. Geez on the GM ETB the wiring going to it is separate and shielded to ground, and that is a simple wiper switch assy if I'm not mistaken. I work on aircraft, specifically all the electrical / electronic systems and shielded wiring is used extensively. Why do you think airlines ask you to turn off electronic devices..... a little overkill but better safe than dead.


This thought is more of a possibility than anything I have heard so far. The signal is getting info from somewhere to make the servo move.
The one other theory that has possibilties is how the computer is reading the algarythms for predicting the way the computer reponds to the style of driving it programs itself to. Someone with an unpredictable foot motion could in theory set the computer to do something to stay ahead of things. Highly unlikely but it is a theory I read from an engineer at another place.

EMI can make gauges read wrong and definately make them not function at all. We had computer problems at the copper wire mill I worked in that I had to spend a whole week buidling sheilds and moving the control center until the field from the annealer which was very high amperage would quit messing with it.

[GregWeld]

You're right of course!!
:rofl:

[Bow Tie 67]

Lets beat the horse a little more, she may not be dead.

Ok I can see a sticky pedal, but if this is the case then it would just stick where it was.

Several people have mentioned emi, yes I'm included, but has anyone read that there are cases where the throttle runs away? If so I want a link, or is this all hear-say and or speculation.

[GregWeld]

Lets beat the horse a little more, she may not be dead.

Ok I can see a sticky pedal, but if this is the case then it would just stick where it was.

Several people have mentioned emi, yes I'm included, but has anyone read that there are cases where the throttle runs away? If so I want a link, or is this all hear-say and or speculation.

Every time I drive my Nomad or my 37 Ford the pedal seems to go to the floor intermittently... Sometimes there is someone in another car beside me that seems to be having the same issue. Can you help me with this problem?

[Bow Tie 67]

Every time I drive my Nomad or my 37 Ford the pedal seems to go to the floor intermittently... Sometimes there is someone in another car beside me that seems to be having the same issue. Can you help me with this problem?

Yes, I will need your keys and it involves a blind fold..........

[Jim Nilsen]

Lets beat the horse a little more, she may not be dead.

Ok I can see a sticky pedal, but if this is the case then it would just stick where it was.

Several people have mentioned emi, yes I'm included, but has anyone read that there are cases where the throttle runs away? If so I want a link, or is this all hear-say and or speculation.


I too have wondered about the runaway part of the stories. You can't seem to get any real good info translated from the media.
When owners tell their stories it reminds me of people at work explaining how the machine got broke, they don't know how to explain it right to begin with most of the time. Then when you look at the situation you can tell they broke it and lied.

I keep wondering about how close the alternator is the throttle body?

In all the cases of the emi messing with the computerized controls from the annealer which was 1500 to 3000 amps everything was increased in values or did not record correctly. There was a distance of 15' to start and it took 5' more and a metal cabinet wall to finally get it to stop.

EMI is a serious thing to consider as it only takes an unsheilded wire end that was not properly installed in a connector.

[GregWeld]

I run a "radio" in my truck.... and use a 500W Class A linear amplifier... (ham operator)... and have a BANKS big hoss bundle in the truck... which uses a Palm E2 Titanium PDA for the software controller....

Kick the radio on and key up - and it kicks that little PDA right between the eyes... the RFI causes all manor of error codes!!

This thread also had me wondering.... why would any of us care about a TOYOTA - or a PRIUS... :rofl: :rofl:

[pokey64]

This thread also had me wondering.... why would any of us care about a TOYOTA - or a PRIUS... :rofl: :rofl:

So you wouldn't support plans for a synergy drive swap in my Impala? :D :rolleyes:

[GregWeld]

Pokey --

Yes! I'd support your swapping some ENERGY into your Impala... :rofl: :rofl:

[GregWeld]

Found this today on the Internet.... and it basically states what many here have said.... that perhaps they really don't have a clue.

A US Congressional committee has cast doubts on Toyota's plans to fix its two acceleration problems.
In a memo to lawmakers it said there was growing evidence neither Toyota nor federal safety officials had identified all the faults.

[buickfunnycar.com]

Found this today on the Internet.... and it basically states what many here have said.... that perhaps they really don't have a clue.

A US Congressional committee has cast doubts on Toyota's plans to fix its two acceleration problems.
In a memo to lawmakers it said there was growing evidence neither Toyota nor federal safety officials had identified all the faults.

Not all the facts are in yet...give it time...this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Not sure what's worse,not disclosing the truth,the spin on the coverup,or all the lies on having the proper fix.

[GregWeld]

John --

The "worst" to me - if I was driving one of these - is "not knowing" if they really fully understood what the cause is.... That would drive me (pun intended) crazy!

[XcYZ]

Not all the facts are in yet...give it time...this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Not sure what's worse,not disclosing the truth,the spin on the coverup,or all the lies on having the proper fix.

I agree on all accounts, John.

[Jim Nilsen]

If you are driving one of those cars now you could speed and when you go to get pulled over you can keep right on going and tap the brakes with your foot on the gas and make it look like you are trying to stop and then put it in nuetral ,shut it off and tell the officer that it was a really close call!!!

The wife thought that one up without me even mentioning anything other than how the operators at work lie about stuff.:unibrow:

[jjarky]

I understand they are starting to offer Toyota's with and w/o steering wheels since they seem useless on a car that can't start or stop...:rofl:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :clap: :clap: :clap: