Big Block ??

[IndyNova]

hey guys, I am debating on an engine for my 70 pt Nova. I ultimately will put in a blown ls motor, but for now I just want to get it running. It currently has no motor, but I have a buddy that has a 454 that needs some boring (unsure yet) and he has a stock stroke ohio crank (brand new) that he's making me a smoking deal on. Should I bother building a stroker big block, or just try to find a good running small block? There is a budget I have to stay in, but doing the research, i think I can find some good deals on things like rods, pistons, etc. Any pro's or con's from guys who have been there done that wiould be appreciated. Thanks

[GregWeld]

Pretty tough to beat a low budget big block... they can make 450/500 Hp and that much torque without breaking a sweat. You're going to spend more money to build a small block with that kind of grunt... and end up with a "snottier" (is that really a word?) cam.

You mention budget but didn't say what that is - so maybe knowing that number would help "us" see what you're up against.

You can't cheap out on machine work... there is no "cheap" machine work... and it's critical unless you just want to end up with oil on the street and a bunch of scrap...

If the guy is willing - make the sale conditional on getting an "okay" to go on the block and crank... DON'T GUESS... you need to have a machinist check it out... or you could end up with an expensive boat anchor.

Find a shop you want to work with - and talk to them about the cost of checking the block - and whether or not they'd credit that cost if you go ahead with the boring or whatever it needs. Tell them exactly what you're looking to build... and listen to what they have to say. They may already have a block and or crank that'd done or needs less work - at a great price. Some people take their stuff in - it gets done - and they never come pick it up -- so maybe the shop has a deal laying around. Maybe even a complete motor? Or a long block... never hurts to ask.

[IndyNova]

as far as budget, i would like to stay in the 3-5k range. I was planning on having a local machine shop who does all the "racers" blocks here in Indy machine it. The block and crank my buddy is selling is cheap-let's just say it's barely 3 numbers long..lol so I got to looking on ebay, and a set of pro-comp h-rods were $400, and I've got a buddy who can get a set of mahle pistons built for cheap, I don't want to set teh world on fire, but I would like to be respectable in any xcross'ing I do, maybe the ocassiona; trip down the track, but mostly street driven. How does a big blocks added weight affect the handling characteristics of the car? Obviously I know it'll be different, but am I gonna have to go back to square one (as far as chassis set-up) in a few years when I jump over to a LS motor? Thanks again.

[GregWeld]

Ah -- you should be able to build a real decent big block on that budget... you'll just have to keep your eyes and ears open.

One thing I would say up front -- a motor is not just a bunch of random parts... and getting something "cheap" --- if it's not the right part for the build - isn't a bargain. What I'm talking about is the compression ratio of the pistons - taking into account the cam - and the heads... So I would have a big time discussion about the EXACT engine build you want with your builder -- and then make a list of exactly what parts (heads etc) you need to find. Then set about getting your best deal on those exact parts.... rather than gathering a bunch of parts - and then trying to make something out of them.

Cam is critical... the lift - and duration - will set up what static compression you're going to need out of the piston/head chamber... so get all those numbers worked out before you start shopping. Push rods will need to be sourced after all the machine work is done - because their proper length is critical and you won't know what that is until you've done the machine work - picked head gaskets etc...

WEIGHT is the number one reason that people stay away from BBC's... they are harder to deal with - when you plop a couple hundred extra pounds on the nose. But lots and lots of people race cars with big blocks... so it's a matter of the proper spring rate and "anti sway bar" (as they're commonly called)... those would most likely have to be changed when and if you go to the lighter LSx motor - as you'd be dropping a couple hundred pounds off the suspension - but those are not expensive parts to begin with.

Just the little bit that I know -- Auto X is one set up for suspension etc - Drag racing is another... and street is street... To be competitive - you're talking a lot more than just motor. We're talking tires - gearing - roll centers - shock valving - weight distribution... That's the beauty of PT style builds - in my opinion - they do it all pretty well... and they're FUN to drive. But having drag raced.... we're talking a completely different set of rear gears - and trying to hook it up (weight transfer) etc.... So if I was on a budget - I'd figure what I'm REALLY wanting to get out of the car and go for that...

[IndyNova]

I guess I mis-spoke (or typed..lol) when I said competitive, I just meant I would like to do some xcross and not look like a idiot. I definitely want a pro touring car, as I'm also planning on ats spindles and z06 brakes, along with hotckis suspension and qa1's. The car will be 99% street driven, but I'd like it to be agile at the same time. Thanks for the advice, you brought up some points that I hadn't thought of yet. :hail:

[Vegas69]

Don't expect to build that engine and turn around and sell it for any decent amount of money. Consider that play money. If I was working with that budget, I'd get a scrap yard LS2-LS3 and put a cam in it.

[jski67]

I agree with Vegas.

I love big blocks...I had a 454 for years and am about to get the car back on the road with it stroked to 489. But if I was starting with nothing, I'd go LS in a heartbeat.

You may be able to get the short block together cheap, but you'll put some money in the heads. New big block heads are pricey and while decent, older heads can be found (781s, 049s) they will usually need a decent amount of machine work to get them up to snuff.

It's amazing me to me how much power the Gen IIIs can easily make...and they're already to go with efi, a/c, etc.

Jason

[IndyNova]

trying to find one around here is like finding gold. I would love to have the 6.0 from my SS truck that I totaled.

[Vegas69]

I agree with Vegas.

I love big blocks...I had a 454 for years and am about to get the car back on the road with it stroked to 489. But if I was starting with nothing, I'd go LS in a heartbeat.

You may be able to get the short block together cheap, but you'll put some money in the heads. New big block heads are pricey and while decent, older heads can be found (781s, 049s) they will usually need a decent amount of machine work to get them up to snuff.

It's amazing me to me how much power the Gen IIIs can easily make...and they're already to go with efi, a/c, etc.

Jason

You don't need great head to make 500ft lbs but the extra weight of an all iron big block is not ideal for autocross. Like Jason said, aluminum heads would be nice but there not cheap for a nice set. I've run 5 autocrosses with my 489 steel block with aluminum heads. Don't think you can't be competitive with a big block. Last time out I out ran the ESP champ and within 1 second of the SSM former champ in his vette. They were both on A6's as well. My car has really good suspension and tires. The low end torqe a big block makes is great for autocross if you can hook it up. I hate to recommend a LSX but they are cheap and easy. I still like the look of a big block under the hood and that's the main reason I went that way originally. Now I'm building a ZL-1 489 so I can bake my cake and eat it too. Light weight but old school.

[jr421]

I would definately buy aluminum heads on top of the weight savings you can run some extra compression and make some free HP! Also make sure you don't just throw something together like they mentioned the right combination of parts makes a huge difference. Also if you are going to X-cross I would look into a good oil pan, tray and pick up its great insurance!

[IndyNova]

the lsx motor is basically a ls2 alum. block with l92 heads, correct? then you just run the late model vette fule rails and intake?

[Vegas69]

So the moral of the story is, do it the way you want it right the first time. Trust me on this.....:rofl:

[IndyNova]

this is true, and I'm trying to avoid the pitfalls of settling just to get the car back on the road. I think I'll pass on the big block, because in the end, it's not really what I want. Thanks guys.

btw-if you know of any cheap ls motors, drop me a line :unibrow:

[deuce_454]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/53K-2006-Vortec-Max-6-0L-LQ9-complete-low-miles-ls1-LS2_W0QQitemZ130363248834QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item1e5a4150c2

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-GMC-5-3-LS1-MOTOR_W0QQitemZ220549551853QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMoto rs_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3359c716ed

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/02-Trans-Am-WS6-LS1-Engine-6-Speed-Trans-62K-LS2-NR_W0QQitemZ360230552399QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_ Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item53df6a034f

what is cheap???
a 6.0 with l92 heads and a cam makes close to 600 horses,

i would stay away from the big block, unless you intend to keep it a BBC powered car.. you are goung to need all kinds of stuff for that motor... accessories, alt, wp, ps-pump, air?? pullies, covers, oilpan, ballancer, furlpump, headers, motormounts, throttle related stuff, carb, aircleaner and so on...

none of wich will work with the LS engine, and will never sell for what you spend on it...

a 5.3 sells routinely for arround 1000 dollars in ebay, add a cam and your making 400 easy... and it comes with all the aforementioned stuff... (except for longtube headers and aircleaner)

and you mentioned auto-x you do realize it involves turning right?? a BBC weighs 600 pounds with iron heads oil and water.. an alluminum block ls weighs closer to half that.. and its weight where it matters the most, roght over the front wheels....

the ls1/t56 dropout can be yours for under 4k .. INCLUDING transmission... add heads and a cam and your making close to 500 rwhp.. you cant touch that with a budget BBC.. trust me i know first hand, everything costs twice as much for a big block...

cnc ported ls1 heads, under 2 grand.. same for a BBC, closer to 3500 and so on

[GregWeld]

I agree with the do it right the first time...

When I used to work, I was a furniture rep (Brown Jordan)... I used to advise people that wanted to compare cheap junk to the "real thing" - that in the long run what seems expensive at first - becomes the better buy in the long run - because instead of REPLACING the junk - you can move on and buy other stuff.

I always watch these commercials for the "whole house worth of furniture for $999" -- and think -- I'd rather have one decent chair than all that junk that will look/be worn out in in a year.

I guess I was trying to justify your use of the BBC... because dollar for dollar they're hard to beat for "power"... and there's plenty of used high dollar parts for a guy to use.

I just installed a LS2 (brand new crate motor) in a 55 chevy - wired it up - hit the key. It didn't crank twice before it started and purred.... no timing to set - no leaks - no carb to jet - it just started and idled perfectly - it sounds good (flowmaster 40's) and couldn't have been easier. Pleasant is the best way to describe the install. This one has Billet Specialties Tru Track set up. My one caveat == I HATE the looks of these plastic pigs... but that's a personal problem... cause they sure run great.

[jr421]

When I started my project I was going with an LS engine it was one of the things I really wanted to try. I have other LS powered cars and they are just amazing. The LS engines just wind up so quickly and make so much power they are awsome little boogers. I just have a problem, once you own, operate or just drive a car with 500 cubic inches its just a whole different world. I am not sure how to describe it. I decided to build a BIG BLOCK, because cubic inches just make me happy! ( I must be making up for for some other shortcomings) :lol:

[GregWeld]

Go big or go home!!

LOL

[jr421]

How about we start a new generation instead of BIG BLOCK lets call it HUGE BLOCK!

[GregWeld]

A friends EMAIL name is "bigblock@...." I once created an email name just to send him an email with my "new" name "biggerblock@...."

Don't forget - there's some big inch LSx stuff out there...

[jr421]

I think we should start a BIG BLOCK club:thumbsup:

[deuce_454]

how much power do you need??

Staying with your desire to autocross i really dont think an iron block, let alone iron heads (whatever the enginetype) is an option,

an alluminim ls style engine can be safely and easily built to about 420 cubic inches.. the limit is arround 500 cui.. but a steetable 427 ls will put down in excess of 700 hp with no poweradder and a decent idle..

yes you can buy 700+ cubic inch big blocks with aluminum block and 1200 pump gas hp, but it will set you back 40.000 dollars, a procharged ls engine will get you close to 1000 hp for half that money if you spend it wisely

if you want a big block.. get it, if the big block of your dreams is an ironblock motor with a stock crank and recon heads.. do by all means buy your buddies engine.. but if you intend to put in an ls motor at some point in time, then you are just wasting money messing with the big block