And it gets worse for GM.

[Musclerodz]

GM announced this morning they will be closing the OKC, OK plant sometime early '06. The Trailblazer and Envoy is built here. 2400 people will be on the streets in early '06. Another strike against the general if you ask me.

Mike

[Smack_talker]

GM is laying off 30,000 people and closing nine plants. They need to build something that people will buy. They better hit the Camaro design out of the park or turn the lights out. Nothing they build excites me beyond the Z06 and I dont think i will be buying one anytime soon.

[61Bubbletop]

Guys, you really need to look at the bigger picture, GM HAS to downsize, foreign competition is at an all time high, and the market share is smaller. You should look at this as a step in the right direction for a return to profitability. Many of those plants closing are products being phased out anyway, or being replaced with another built elsewhere. GM could build the best car in the world, and it will still not sway many people to a domestic product they are set that foreign is better, period. The Camaro is NOT the answer, just ask Ford, they sell a ton of them, and they are in the crapper as well right now....While I do feel for the displaced workers, this IS the right thing to do.....

I do get the impression that no matter what GM does it is perceived as "wrong".....We are losing tons of money each quarter, and people say "GM is in trouble", so GM takes major step to return to profitablility, and people say "GM is in deeper trouble"....No win situation.

For the record, The Impala, G6 (depite what you read), the Solstice, DTS, Cobalt among others are selling very well. The overhead and excess capacity are the problems...which they are trying to correct.

[trapin]

Yep. What he said. :yes:

No matter what we do, the media (and people in general) will always take it with a grain of salt. This is essentially why GM could have NEVER built cars like the Honda Element or Scion XB. If they had been badged as Pontiac's or Buicks, the press would have eaten them alive. But because they're Japanese cars...well now...they're the greatest thing since sliced bread!

I gotta admit. I'm getting a little nervous about "the unveiling" in January. With so many cynics nowadays, I wonder if it'll even be worth it. :(

[XcYZ]

Here's a Forbes article (http://www.forbes.com/investmentnewsletters/2005/11/14/gm-bankruptcy-lehmann-in_rl_1114soapbox_inl.html) that brings up a few points.

[jonny51]

I only buy GM cars and trucks,but that's just me and my family. :patriot:

Jeff I have to agree with you some people think import's are just better.They won't even go look at domestic cars.

[907rs]

Does ANYONE remember Pearl Harbor?

[Mecom Racer]

Does ANYONE remember Pearl Harbor?

No. Apparently not enough. :rolleyes:

I will NEVER buy an oriental car. EVER.

[steemin]

Does ANYONE remember Pearl Harbor?

I do..
And if you don't think we are still at war you better open your eyes.
Some of you may accuse me of being narrow minded but I would NEVER
buy a foriegn made car...
Especially cars built in Japan (or China. They will be selling cars here soon). We as Americans need to support the American worker.. Over "there" it is not a level playing field in regards selling U.S. made cars over seas.
They screw the American manufacturers with unreasonable tarrifs so our cars cannot be sold at a competitive price.
Please do not play the:
"did you know that Honda's/Toyota's are built in America" card.
Where do you think most of the profits from these Japanese cars that are "built in the U.S." go?
Thats right over seas.
End of rant.. I feel better now.
Scott

[BC69]

I have been watching the GM situation fluxuate for over a year now and I have stood by and will continue to stand by some simple business rules. First and foremost is the business cycle on the firm level. We just need to remember that this is General Motors. You may not currently have much confidence, or see much growth in the short run, but this is a huge company that has been around for a long time. They are not going anywhere!

Economically the US is hitting its Post-WWII low as far as the Trade defecit, but its all a cycle and we will start to come back the other way soon. When we do, GM and other US manufacturers will begin to reclaim some ground. As a small example of what could happen: The Chinese have SERIOUSLY undervalued their Yaun for the purpose of staying competetive vs. the US dollar. Right now two things are beginning to happen, the Dollar is dropping in value, and the Yaun is beginning to be unrestricted, and hopefully will soon lose more restriction and explode. If this happens then from a countries point of view, to buy from China is more expensive, and to buy from the US is cheaper. The trade balance would change, and we would benefit. Other things that might change and help, Tarriffs, Union and Pension plans, Healthcare reform in the US...those are all big factors that could help companies like GM and Ford.

That is on a global economic level, but on the Market level. Right now GM is extremely weighted in the SUV market because they get a high return when they sell an SUV vs. selling a compact car. So as energy costs have risen they have taken a beating from the early 2000 SUV boom, which remember...they were doing great back then. Anyway in time they will completely move their market strategy and hybrids and small cars will take over again. But they need time, real time.

Its a cycle, and they will eventually come back around. So, since we don't really want to buy their cars right now, and we just dont see them as too appealing at the moment, what can we do?

Buy their stock. Its at record lows, I own shares, and bought more as it dropped during the summer. You just dont know what 5 or 10 years might do for this company. Just remember the first thing I said. It is General Motors!


Sorry for the Ramble.
Tim

[Stuart Adams]

Buy stock is right. As Arnold sais "I'll be baaak"

[Ummgawa]

I am a GM man all the way. I will never have a Japmobile in my driveway. I will not buy a Hyundai built in Alabama, etc. No loopholes, here. Mitsubishi built the airplanes that bombed Pearl Harbor. I wont own anything Mitsubishi. Just me. I am only 45 but when I was in school in the 60's, "Remember Pearl harbor' was still said with great admonishon. When i was born, PH was just 16 or so years old. Remember what you were doing 16 years ago? I do. I still believe in GM. 98 % of us are PT ing a GM car. GM is in a cycle. Trush said it right. Any move by GM is drastic and greatly criticized. 1/10th of one percent layoffs of the GM workforce is huge.The Doraville plant outside Atlanta is closing along with others. It happens. Like Stu said, buy stock!

The banking business shrinks every day (my line of work). I figure WalMart will be building Cars and banking soon, they are doing every thing else.

[Diognes56]

:patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

David

[groovyjay]

All the big three US car makers produced same old crap for several years through the 70s and 80s. I feel like as they never even thought about what they could do better or how they could listen to the public for once and see what they really wanted. Then along came the japs with their cheap, small economical rice "rockets", for a long time the big three ignored them totally and kept selling the horrible looking sedans with terrible build quality and absolutely appalling handling. Japs beat the US manufacturers in their own ground.

Now that the US car manufacturers have finally started to come around, they try to get you buy american made "korean cars" like the Cobalt etc. They are trying to do all they can to make their cars to look like boring old japanese cars, IMO it wasn't the looks that first got the general public to buy Japanese/Korean cars, but the quality. And that is what GM and other US car companies should focus on 100% first. Looks also plays a big part in it, look how the new mustang is selling, it's not ashamed to look like an american car, the quality has been improved too. GM has had it's lousy "retro" attempts too, look at the SSR pick up truck roadster-thing. I just can't see how someone would want to buy that since the price is just outrageous for a car like that. Drop the price 50% and they would sell like hot cakes!

The new Z06, no argument on the power/weight/handling stuff, but it was drawn buy team of Japanese designers that were responsible for designing the Nissan Z350 and what does the C6 look like, yup a Nissan Z350. I'm not saying all american cars should be retro looking things, but coming up with desings first seen on Japanese cars few years earlier isn't going to help!

As far as the retro thing goes, now is the bang on time to do it. The guys that were kids in the muscle car era in the late 60s and early 70s are now in their 50s and 60s, loaded and ready to get something that brings back the good ol days-- most of them are too lazy to buy a basket case camaro and start learning how to be a weekend mechanic, so théy walk into their local show room and buy something that reassembles their youth. It won't last for ever, but like Mopar with it's PT cruizer, 300c and the upcoming Challenger and ford with their mustang have done, GM should make the Camaro perfect, it should be retro, in no way it should be just a rebadged Holden Monaro like the new GTO was.

Ok, enough with my own nonsense, I just hate to see crappy looking and crappy quality cars rolling out from the big three. I hope to see all of them striking back HARD so we all can be proud of those cars again when we see them rolling in the streets. :thumbsup:

[rwhite692]

Same here, we only buy American cars and primarily GM.



We just bought a Caddy Northstar SRX AWD a couple of months ago, and two family members were trying to convince me that their Lexus RX400 and ACURA MDX were “better” vehicles. They could not tell me in what way, of course.



First, I smoked each one of them on one of the back roads, then, after letting each one of them drive the SRX, they came away impressed but you could tell that they would still never concede to actually buy an American car. The media has programmed people to believe that the American car companies can’t deliver the goods, and it’s a damn shame. Even when people know the product is as good as, or better, than the imports, it’s like they have a cross to bear and have to “explain themselves” if they buy American.

[61Bubbletop]

All the big three US car makers produced same old crap for several years through the 70s and 80s. I feel like as they never even thought about what they could do better or how they could listen to the public for once and see what they really wanted. Then along came the japs with their cheap, small economical rice "rockets", for a long time the big three ignored them totally and kept selling the horrible looking sedans with terrible build quality and absolutely appalling handling. Japs beat the US manufacturers in their own ground.

Now that the US car manufacturers have finally started to come around, they try to get you buy american made "korean cars" like the Cobalt etc. They are trying to do all they can to make their cars to look like boring old japanese cars, IMO it wasn't the looks that first got the general public to buy Japanese/Korean cars, but the quality. And that is what GM and other US car companies should focus on 100% first. Looks also plays a big part in it, look how the new mustang is selling, it's not ashamed to look like an american car, the quality has been improved too. GM has had it's lousy "retro" attempts too, look at the SSR pick up truck roadster-thing. I just can't see how someone would want to buy that since the price is just outrageous for a car like that. Drop the price 50% and they would sell like hot cakes!

The new Z06, no argument on the power/weight/handling stuff, but it was drawn buy team of Japanese designers that were responsible for designing the Nissan Z350 and what does the C6 look like, yup a Nissan Z350. I'm not saying all american cars should be retro looking things, but coming up with desings first seen on Japanese cars few years earlier isn't going to help!

As far as the retro thing goes, now is the bang on time to do it. The guys that were kids in the muscle car era in the late 60s and early 70s are now in their 50s and 60s, loaded and ready to get something that brings back the good ol days-- most of them are too lazy to buy a basket case camaro and start learning how to be a weekend mechanic, so théy walk into their local show room and buy something that reassembles their youth. It won't last for ever, but like Mopar with it's PT cruizer, 300c and the upcoming Challenger and ford with their mustang have done, GM should make the Camaro perfect, it should be retro, in no way it should be just a rebadged Holden Monaro like the new GTO was.

Ok, enough with my own nonsense, I just hate to see crappy looking and crappy quality cars rolling out from the big three. I hope to see all of them striking back HARD so we all can be proud of those cars again when we see them rolling in the streets. :thumbsup:


Huh???? The Cobalt is in no way associated with the Korean Daewoo, not at all. The AVEO is a rebadged Daewoo, and fills a segmant of the market well, at very little cost. The Cobalt, which is an excellent vehicle for the money, is pure USA. So GM should just ignore the small car market? What would you suggest? and as far as "The Corvette was drawn by a team of Japanese designers?" Huh? That is probably news to the N.A. design team, I will be sure to let them know....I am not sure what recent "crappy" cars you are referring too, but you need to look at the JD Power info for the past several years, GM is second only to Toyota in overall vehicle quality., and holds the 3 best plants for quality in North America. As far as making "the Camaro perfect", it will never be perfect for everyone. If it costs 15K, some people will still bitch that is costs too much, If it has a 500hp LS7, some people will say doesn't have enough power, if it looks exactly like a retro '69, people will bitch if it isn't an RS, yada yada yada.......I do agree it would be nice to have domestic dominance once again, but it is going to take a long time... :thumbsup:

[groovyjay]

Huh???? The Cobalt is in no way associated with the Korean Daewoo, not at all. The AVEO is a rebadged Daewoo, and fills a segmant of the market well, at very little cost. The Cobalt, which is an excellent vehicle for the money, is pure USA. So GM should just ignore the small car market? What would you suggest? and as far as "The Corvette was drawn by a team of Japanese designers?" Huh? That is probably news to the N.A. design team, I will be sure to let them know....I am not sure what recent "crappy" cars you are referring too, but you need to look at the JD Power info for the past several years, GM is second only to Toyota in overall vehicle quality., and holds the 3 best plants for quality in North America. As far as making "the Camaro perfect", it will never be perfect for everyone. If it costs 15K, some people will still bitch that is costs too much, If it has a 500hp LS7, some people will say doesn't have enough power, if it looks exactly like a retro '69, people will bitch if it isn't an RS, yada yada yada.......I do agree it would be nice to have domestic dominance once again, but it is going to take a long time... :thumbsup:

The design team thing was discussed widely over at the corvetteforum when the C6 was launched. And by looking at the two cars I mentioned above, I think there's at least some truth in it! :unibrow:

What I meant was that the Cobalt is GM's poor attempt to make their car look like a Korean car, like the Hyandais. GM should in no way ignore the small car market, but I would like them to try makeing cars that don't look like the Japanese car next to it. As far as the JD Power thingy, GM puts huge chunk of change into lobbying, so no nice record will change my mind about quality. Even the brand new cars (even the Z06) still have the junky plastic interiors, YUK! :eek:

On the Camaro issue you are dead on, no such thing as the perfect car for everyone (excluding the old WV beetle... Adolfs idea of a perfect car for everyone). It's just something I'm really hoping to see GM getting it right like the 67 was when it first came out. :cool:

But no need to take this any further, people just like different things that's all. I have been driving BMWs, WVs and Audis for most of my life and their quality is going down too... FAST....!!! :thumbsup:

[jonny51]

I don't know about who designed what but the new vette doesn't look like a 350z to me.

[Fluid Power]

The Japanese thing pushes my buttons as well. For several reasons. Most importantly is the huge smoke and mirrors job that goes on in the local press. I live in Ohio and own a business that deals in fluid power products (pneumatic and hydraulic cylinders, tubing, tube fittings, hoses etc) and with all the Honda plants and feeder plants ie, seat manufacturers, trim parts, metal stamping plants in and around Ohio one would think business would be great. I have done $1800 in business so far this year with a Japanese owned or affliated business. Why? Because the Japanese only buy from their same kind, ie, other Japanese manufactured products. For example, we sell Bimba air cylinders, made in Chicago. The Honda plants have spec'd in SMC, owned and operated in the motherland of Japan. You WILL NOT sell an American made part into a Japanese plant or machine builder unless delivery is an issue. (Chicago is a lot closer to Ohio than Japan) In some cases, the supplier plants are 30% owned by Honda. Honda claims they are good for 'local' business, and buy 95% of their parts from 'local' plants. Let me be the first to tell you folks, Cardington Yutaka, a SMALL farming town in Cardington Ohio, is not owned by the local Yutaka family. AY manufacturing, also a partially owned Honda plant is not 'locally' owned. The profits of these business do not stay here in the US. Honda's benefit is that it pumps $1billion into payroll for Ohio citizens, which in turn is good for Ohio, but it is sickining to know what is going on inside and realize that behind the curtain is a Japanese manager pulling the strings and making the decision on what brand should be purchased, even though in some cases, the American brand is far superior. It is maddening!

The point is this, until the Japanese start keeping profits here, I will not even consider buying a Japanese car.

Darren

[almcbri]

You know, I use to be a firm believer in buying U.S. products only. I am a die hard chevy guy, and have been raised on chevy. I feel sorry for the situation with the jobs being lost. It isn't these employees fault, but who is going to take the blame? U.S. Auto manufacturers missed the boat.
Remember Ford has had a tough time as well in the past, but the focus lately has been on GM. I think GM has done everything they can to hold it together, but it has came time to fold in certain areas.

What I am trying to get out is: GM has got theirselves in this mess due to 1 reason, it is their own fault.
Today, most of us our out to get ahead in life and make a good living, why spend money on a 1 car when another is going? Just because GM, Ford, Dodge doesn't produce a car that can run for 250-300K miles is solely their own fault. (I am not reffering to every car, just in general) Why should we buy U.S. products when we know that their competitors will mechanically out do the U.S built cars. I do believe in supporting the U.S. in what I buy, but I see why the public has went elsewhere with purchasing these Honda's and other cars. My beliefs have changed a bit, from now on out I will buy what I feel is going to be the best bang for the buck. Of course in a heavy truck Ford, GM, dodge own the market, but these other manufactures are going to catch up to par eventually. U.S. auto manufactures need to gain the confidence in the public. I realize once you fall down it is going to be a tough time to rise again, but I think they will do it. I see they are trying to build cars that can compete, but it is going to be a slow go to get back to the top.

[69MyWay]

This is a good discussion. Of course we won't sovle the problem here but it is nice to see different view points.

My dad retired from GM. Everysince I was a little kid there was a new Chevrolet in the driveway (company car every 5,000 miles).

My dad was an executive and was on the inside track to many of the internal issues.

While going to college I worked on many different cars for $$$. During that time I was exposed to Ford, Honda, Toyota, Nissan...etc.

One thing I learned is they break down too! I also learned there is a real difference below the skin between a jap car and domestic. The bolts, supports, materials, and general design is different. What always struck me is how they do more with less materials, lighter materials, etc. Another thing that I actually like about the jap cars if the bolts they use tend to actually unscrew after being in one place for many years instead of snapping off, or being rusted solid into the chassis.

There is a whole different build philosophy behind these cars that in some ways seems to be a better idea. These are details the average consumer will never know about since they don't actually work on their own cars.

Now that the tuners have figured out how to get power out of these things it takes it to a whole different level. Where I grew up talking about a "3/4 race cam" in my 350 chevy, kids of today grow up talking about the turbo kits for their civics. This market is expanding fast.

When the rice rocket kids of today grow up, they won't care what a 2008 Camaro looked like. They are going to want a retro 93 Civic!

I am just rambling here, but I agree that GM needs to keep pursuing excellence in the build design, quality, and innovation. You can also gurantee that once they hit on something solid, the japs will just copy it and sell it for $3K less.