Metal Work Time Frame (for my '69 Firebird)?

[Ron Fox]

Talked to my builder several days ago and he mentioned that he is about ready to begin metal work on my '69 Firebird. (Finally!)

What is the average time frame for metal work on:

Full floor
Full Trunk
Full Quarter
A Quarter Patch

Thanks for the help.

[elitecustombody]

new off the shelf parts? or one off custom?

[Ron Fox]

New off the shelf.

Thanks.

[elitecustombody]

That's about 40-50 hours, keep in mind, when old metal comes off you can find more rust,and may end up needing wheelhouses and other rust repair

[Ron Fox]

That's about 40-50 hours, keep in mind, when old metal comes off you can find more rust,and may end up needing wheelhouses and other rust repair


Could you break it down for each process?

Mini tubs are going on also.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

Any help on this anyone. I appreciate it.

Thanks.

[elitecustombody]

Full floor 10-15 hrs
Full Trunk 5-8 hrs
Full Quarter 15-18hrs
A Quarter Patch - depends on size

Keep in mind, that's just basic time to r&r on car that has interior and glass removed and most likely will require additional time to clean,blast or repair more hidden rust

[Garage Dog 65]

I've seen quoted 20 - 40 hours to install DSE mini-tubs. Check with Frank - he's quoted a couple in a thread somewhere.

Jim

[J2SpeedandCustom]

Post up some pictures without them it's just a guessing game.

Why are you asking did the shop you are using not explain the process and the cost?

[PRRC]

[QUOTE=J2SpeedandCustom;261420]Post up some pictures without them it's just a guessing game.

^^^^ This^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would be willing to wadger that there will be more issues that what can be seen. The inner wheeel housing are usually a rusted mess when the quarter comes off and you can really see what your dealing with. I will take some time to get the floors,trunk , quarter all back in place and plug welded. I would estimate more on the lines of 60-70hrs.

[ItDoRun]

What about your tail panel too? I had to remove mine for the full trunk replacement.

[GregWeld]

I would make this statement - and not to be mean spirited either.... just saying:

If you have to ask - you can't afford it... 'cause it's all just a GUESSTIMATE... and only a fool would give you a fixed "not to exceed" price... and if they did - it would be to cover EVERY POSSIBLE PROBLEM PLUS SOME ADDITIONAL -- and if you saw that quote - you wouldn't proceed with the work.

This reminds me of the old "Twilight Zone".... you're now entering the land of.... whatever they used to say... There's just no way to know what you're going to get into until they start taking stuff apart.

[GregWeld]

I would also like to add:

If you don't TRUST the shop doing the work - to do the work on a timely basis - for a "fair" price.... THEN YOU NEED TO FIND A NEW SHOP.

End of story.

[onevoice]

only a fool would give you a fixed "not to exceed" price... and if they did - it would be to cover EVERY POSSIBLE PROBLEM PLUS SOME ADDITIONAL -- and if you saw that quote - you wouldn't proceed with the work.



That is true in some cases, but for a shop that knows these old cars, it is fairly easy to quote hours. A quarter panel replacement is a book hour number. New problems should be quoted as they come up. Giving anyone open time and materials is a receipt for disaster, never do it.

With detailed pictures of my car, and the understanding of the how it would be worked in, Frank at Prodigy gave me a detailed time and material cost breakdown for my paintwork and metalwork. It was done exactly as promised and done WHEN promised. It costs no more to get it done right the first time.

[customcam]

The way Frank does hes business is Professional!
If a builder cant give you an exact quote upfront, either a couple of things are happening. Ill let you figure that out. :lateral:

[67rstbkt]

You could always do it yourself and save the cash for other stuff..... I'm having a great time figuring out how to put together all the sheetmetal on mine. After the initial WTF did I get myself into, it's turning out to be easier than I thought. :cheers:

[GregWeld]

I was thinking that a better post of this type of question would have been - "my shop has quoted X for X X X X work" - does this seem reasonable and customary for that kind of work. That way - people that have done this work - or had this work done - would have a better idea of the scope of work.

[nvr2fst]

That is true in some cases, but for a shop that knows these old cars, it is fairly easy to quote hours. A quarter panel replacement is a book hour number. New problems should be quoted as they come up. Giving anyone open time and materials is a receipt for disaster, never do it.

With detailed pictures of my car, and the understanding of the how it would be worked in, Frank at Prodigy gave me a detailed time and material cost breakdown for my paintwork and metalwork. It was done exactly as promised and done WHEN promised. It costs no more to get it done right the first time.

I was thinking that a better post of this type of question would have been - "my shop has quoted X for X X X X work" - does this seem reasonable and customary for that kind of work. That way - people that have done this work - or had this work done - would have a better idea of the scope of work.

I agree that it should be presented as Greg stated. On the other hand there are plenty of shops that can quote to a tee like Frank. You typically can not approach the shop your stating saying " I belong to this forum and they said"
If there not used to doing it or familiar with "that" car any shop is going to estimate to cover there a!!. Almost all my past cars (not present) were quoted up front for work done and they pretty much stayed true to the initial costs. (Were talking basic panel work, wiring, paint etc.) But I went to shops that were familiar with that car or street rod. In the end if your gut says somethings not right...move on.

[ItDoRun]

You could always do it yourself and save the cash for other stuff..... I'm having a great time figuring out how to put together all the sheetmetal on mine. After the initial WTF did I get myself into, it's turning out to be easier than I thought. :cheers:

I'll second that! I've learned a lot myself with the help of such a great site and great community here on Lateral-g.

I say bail off in it neck deep and do it yourself. There's plenty of people on this site that can walk you through it, but if you prefer to bring it to someone, that's cool too.

Just post plenty of pictures as you go through the build. We like progress photos!

[burntnova]

I'll second that! I've learned a lot myself with the help of such a great site and great community here on Lateral-g.

I say bail off in it neck deep and do it yourself. There's plenty of people on this site that can walk you through it, but if you prefer to bring it to someone, that's cool too.

Just post plenty of pictures as you go through the build. We like progress photos!

:cheers: :lateral: I agree jump in neck deep and do it yourself. It might take you allot longer to complete your project but the self gratification is unbeleivable and ther eis plenty of guys & girls on this site that will help you through any problems you may run into.

My project is a 70 nova and I replaced both rear Quarter skins, Outer wheel houses, tail panel and did allot of repair work on some other areas of the car with no previous experience of panel replacement. The pictures people post on this site helped me through every step of my work. Just have to get over the initial fear of doing it yourself.

[door-ajar]

yeah man ,try to do it your self,in my case i have too because i can't afford too have it done ,but i don't mind ,i have to replace the entire back sheetmetal on my 70 camaro and most of the floor pan on my nova,but hey if you get into it and decide you don't want to do it you can always take it to the shop ,and if you do ,is he going to coat the insides because that takes time to

[Ron Fox]

Thanks to everyone's response and help. Please keep the info coming.

I am not a car builder, car painter, or engine builder. I only know the very basics of a car so that is why I am having my car built. But I have put many hours into my car by doing what I can do which has help me learn and save money in area's such as cleaning parts and media blasting smaller parts. I have faith in my builder and I did my homework on him months before I took my car to him. This is a great site and asking questions and comparing everyone's answers to my builders answers is helpful to me.

I will post pics later. I have a new laptop and for some odd reason I am having trouble posting pics. I will have to post pics from my office computer.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

Here are a few pics as requested.

Thanks.

[GregWeld]

So --- looks like you're going to need

Quarters
Inners
Trunk
Rockers
full floor
tailpan - might as well replace while you can

You didn't show door skins - would assume they're bad as well??

[Ron Fox]

So --- looks like you're going to need

Quarters
Inners
Trunk
Rockers
full floor
tailpan - might as well replace while you can

You didn't show door skins - would assume they're bad as well??

I have already purchased one Full Quarter, one partial Quarter (but I may end up ordering another Full Quarter instead), Full Floor, Full Truck, and both Rockers.

Driver's side door will need a new skin and the passenger side could be fixed but I will probably re-skin that side also.

The fenders will have to be patched on both driver and passenger side.

[70rs]

I have already purchased one Full Quarter, one partial Quarter (but I may end up ordering another Full Quarter instead), Full Floor, Full Truck, and both Rockers.

Driver's side door will need a new skin and the passenger side could be fixed but I will probably re-skin that side also.

The fenders will have to be patched on both driver and passenger side.

If you have the option Ron, the full quarter is ALWAYS a better end result than the partial. If you can get one you won't regret it.
You may also need the inner wheelhouses and trunk drop offs. When you peel the quarters it will really show what's needed. Best of luck with it.:cheers:


And if you are doing both quarters and one door replacing the other door only makes sense. If you look at the time required to patch a door skin versus replace the skin, not much difference in time and the full skin will give you a better finished result too. Worth the extra buck for the part in my book.

[Ron Fox]

If you have the option Ron, the full quarter is ALWAYS a better end result than the partial. If you can get one you won't regret it.
You may also need the inner wheelhouses and trunk drop offs. When you peel the quarters it will really show what's needed. Best of luck with it.:cheers:


And if you are doing both quarters and one door replacing the other door only makes sense. If you look at the time required to patch a door skin versus replace the skin, not much difference in time and the full skin will give you a better finished result too. Worth the extra buck for the part in my book.

I will probably go with both Full Quarters that way I know no problems will pop up on me down the road. I actually bought the truck drop offs as well. Once the Quarters come off the area behind can be cleaned and treated.

Thanks

[GregWeld]

SNOWBALL....... Coming in.....


Might as well mini tub it if you're there!


:rofl: :woot:

[70rs]

SNOWBALL....... Coming in.....


Might as well mini tub it if you're there!


:rofl: :woot:

:rofl: Hey Ron...welcome to the club!!:D

[redss86]

SNOWBALL....... Coming in.....


Might as well mini tub it if you're there!


:rofl: :woot:

Could you break it down for each process?

Mini tubs are going on also.

Thanks.

He's one step ahead of ya Greg.

Ron, it looks like you have quite a project there. At least you had it blasted so you can really see the amount of damage.

Good luck and keep us posted,
Joe

[z4me69]

mini tub it you are replacing inner and outer tubs anyway. plus you are going to replace the trunk drops and you will find more rust when you cut it appart

[Ron Fox]

What about your tail panel too? I had to remove mine for the full trunk replacement.

Tail panel is in decent shape.

Is it possible to put in a Full Trunk (without cutting it in half) while the quarter is off?

[Ron Fox]

SNOWBALL....... Coming in.....


Might as well mini tub it if you're there!


:rofl: :woot:

Yea, we are going to do the mini tubs since everything is going to be cut up and replaced with new metal. I know I would regret it if I did not put the tubs in.

[Ron Fox]

:rofl: Hey Ron...welcome to the club!!:D

Thanks!

What's up with the new pic?

[Ron Fox]

Frank, you thought's please on metal work time?

Thanks.

[70rs]

Thanks!

What's up with the new pic?

Oh, the toilet? That is my special reminder to Greg for all of the love he showed after I dropped my phone in the toilet and lost all of my contact numbers. And it goes with the seat/lid he got for a christmas gift too!:lol:

[Ron Fox]

Oh, the toilet? That is my special reminder to Greg for all of the love he showed after I dropped my phone in the toilet and lost all of my contact numbers. And it goes with the seat/lid he got for a christmas gift too!:lol:

Bummer about the phone but a tolet seat for Christmas:lol:

[ProdigyCustoms]

Frank, you thought's please on metal work time?

Thanks.


Got your e mail. Sorry, I did not see this post. You did the right thing emailing me, I am working to many baords to catch every relevant post. I appreciate the fact you value my opinion

I have said this 100 times, and every time I do I get some builder pissed off PMing me wanting to know how the f__k we can give firm numbers. But the facts are the facts.

On basic sheetmetal work, and on paint work AFTER sheetmetal repairs are roughed in, there is NO REASON a shop should not be able to quote within 10% or so a final number. Sure there are surprises, but if the surprise is too big, the shop did not look things over well enough or low balled the estimate to get the job and the deposit. And that low balling to get it in the door happens more often then you may think.

As mentioned in this post, in the body shop world we work for "book hours". If you wreck you car, Gieco tells me how much they are paying to change a quarter based on the book. A old car is no different except where rust may be concerned, but that should be easy to spot and no reason a pro cannot hit that VERY close with a SMALL over / under number.

As mentioned above, if a shop is unwilling to do this, someone is going to get screwed, and most times, it will not be the shop! When a project is under bid either on purpose or by accident, at some point the shop has to make a decision, am I going to screw myself or the customer? guess who the loser is most times. The experienced guys on this forum that have built multiple cars will not get involved in open tickets, unless if is a SMOY car, or something totally wild. Known collectors know better to turn their car loose with no over / under numbers in place. Sure there are exceptions when their are relashioships, history and trust between a builder and a owner. We have a few of these customers.

In reference to this car.

I think the floor has been greatly underestimated. They are a PIA, a million spot welds, seat pans are a MFer, full trunk is no cake walk either. But if the quarters are off it helps the trunk install a bit. if doing a trunk and quarters, it is best to just do a tailpan, will actually speeds the process.

Tubs are a TINY bit easier if your doing trunk floor and quarters and outer wheel houses.


The numbers I quote are firm hours but do no include any inner panel repair should there be any. But with quarters, we will only do them with outer wheel houses anyway, and that is where most of the additional trouble will come from. Also, often times lower trunk drops have to be replaced, but if your doing a full floor, those need ot be done anyway.

SO PLEASE, no one confuse these hours with just a quarter, just a floor, we are trimming these hours for overlap, so the number for every panel is lower.

With that disclaimer

Full Floor / seat pans (20) hours
Full trunk floor (no tailpan or quarters) on (16)
trunk drops (included)
Rear body panel / inner lower (8)
Quarters W outer wheelhouse (15) each
Mini tubs (no crossmember) (24) add 6 hours for crossmember

So 100 hours

[Ron Fox]

Got your e mail. Sorry, I did not see this post. You did the right thing emailing me, I am working to many baords to catch every relevant post. I appreciate the fact you value my opinion

I have said this 100 times, and every time I do I get some builder pissed off PMing me wanting to know how the f__k we can give firm numbers. But the facts are the facts.

On basic sheetmetal work, and on paint work AFTER sheetmetal repairs are roughed in, there is NO REASON a shop should not be able to quote within 10% or so a final number. Sure there are surprises, but if the surprise is too big, the shop did not look things over well enough or low balled the estimate to get the job and the deposit. And that low balling to get it in the door happens more often then you may think.

As mentioned in this post, in the body shop world we work for "book hours". If you wreck you car, Gieco tells me how much they are paying to change a quarter based on the book. A old car is no different except where rust may be concerned, but that should be easy to spot and no reason a pro cannot hit that VERY close with a SMALL over / under number.

As mentioned above, if a shop is unwilling to do this, someone is going to get screwed, and most times, it will not be the shop! When a project is under bid either on purpose or by accident, at some point the shop has to make a decision, am I going to screw myself or the customer? guess who the loser is most times. The experienced guys on this forum that have built multiple cars will not get involved in open tickets, unless if is a SMOY car, or something totally wild. Known collectors know better to turn their car loose with no over / under numbers in place. Sure there are exceptions when their are relashioships, history and trust between a builder and a owner. We have a few of these customers.

In reference to this car.

I think the floor has been greatly underestimated. They are a PIA, a million spot welds, seat pans are a MFer, full trunk is no cake walk either. But if the quarters are off it helps the trunk install a bit. if doing a trunk and quarters, it is best to just do a tailpan, will actually speeds the process.

Tubs are a TINY bit easier if your doing trunk floor and quarters and outer wheel houses.


The numbers I quote are firm hours but do no include any inner panel repair should there be any. But with quarters, we will only do them with outer wheel houses anyway, and that is where most of the additional trouble will come from. Also, often times lower trunk drops have to be replaced, but if your doing a full floor, those need ot be done anyway.

SO PLEASE, no one confuse these hours with just a quarter, just a floor, we are trimming these hours for overlap, so the number for every panel is lower.

With that disclaimer

Full Floor / seat pans (20) hours
Full trunk floor (no tailpan or quarters) on (16)
trunk drops (included)
Rear body panel / inner lower (8)
Quarters W outer wheelhouse (15) each
Mini tubs (no crossmember) (24) add 6 hours for crossmember

So 100 hours

Frank, thank you for elaborating on my question about metal work. It makes all the difference in the world to get your opinion and others opinions in here on car building. And like I have said in the past I have faith in my builder but I want to have knowlege in all area's of the build so I know what to expect and what to look for when each stage comes up.

Thanks again.