Vision Too Big For Bank Account????

[ccracin]

I was talking to a board member last night and we started discussing the fact the we are seeing more and more unfinished projects showing up for sale. What's the deal? I understand the economy is bad and all, but I'm looking at this in a different light. Alot of these projects were started way before any of this happened. Some were already stalled before the bust.

My question is: Is it better to have a finished 40-70K car that you can drive and enjoy or an unfinished 150K+ car that you have to sell because you are 40-70K in and can't see the end of the tunnel?

Is this a product of poor planning up front, lack of knowledge in what it takes to get to a particular level of build, or was there a reasonable budget in the beginning and then things went south after spending many hours looking at build threads saying I want that or I need to get rid of this to get that or something else?

We are victims of my last scenario. We changed from a Big Block we had to an LS mostly due to my time on this site. LOL Is it going to be cool, hell yeah. Is it going to be alot more money, Hell yeah! I find myself now trying to treat our project more like I treat my projects at work. What is needed, what is wanted, what's the budget? I don't want to have a 50K pile of parts that I have to sell for 30 2 years from now.

I just thought I would throw this out and get some input. Maybe people starting builds or progressing along will be able to gain or keep some focus as they move forward.

Remeber, You can't have 1000hp TT taste on a 350hp Q-jet budget!

What's everyone think? :cheers: :lateral:

[Vegas69]

I've noticed the same thing lately. All kinds of projects not even half done with a boat load of quality parts. The fact of the matter is they will need to take a hurting of at least half to off load the project.

These projects take a long time to plan and execute. They Always cost more than you think. They are also the first to go in any hardship. This site is horrible for the check book. If I knew then what I know now, I probably wouldn't of built this car. I have to be honest. I have way to much money tied up in it. I'm my own worst enemy. Remind me to never build a custom house. :rofl:

[ccracin]

Remind me to never build a custom house. :rofl:

Todd,

Absolutely! It's because of that my Camaro is still stock! :lol:

[96z28ss]

This board is such a bad influence. My project changed a bit thats for sure.
It will take me longer to finish, but Im not going to give up, I'm driving this damn car.

[ccracin]

This board is such a bad influence. My project changed a bit thats for sure.
It will take me longer to finish, but Im not going to give up, I'm driving this damn car.

I agree and disagree. This site has definitely cost us more money, but I don't think the project would be as nice as it is going to be with out this site. I think you just have to be diligent in managing your budget. Some may even have to develop a budget to start with. I've talked to several people that just strt building with no idea where they are going!

[camaro2nv]

I was talking to a board member last night and we started discussing the fact the we are seeing more and more unfinished projects showing up for sale. What's the deal? I understand the economy is bad and all, but I'm looking at this in a different light. Alot of these projects were started way before any of this happened. Some were already stalled before the bust.

My question is: Is it better to have a finished 40-70K car that you can drive and enjoy or an unfinished 150K+ car that you have to sell because you are 40-70K in and can't see the end of the tunnel?

Is this a product of poor planning up front, lack of knowledge in what it takes to get to a particular level of build, or was there a reasonable budget in the beginning and then things went south after spending many hours looking at build threads saying I want that or I need to get rid of this to get that or something else?

We are victims of my last scenario. We changed from a Big Block we had to an LS mostly due to my time on this site. LOL Is it going to be cool, hell yeah. Is it going to be alot more money, Hell yeah! I find myself now trying to treat our project more like I treat my projects at work. What is needed, what is wanted, what's the budget? I don't want to have a 50K pile of parts that I have to sell for 30 2 years from now.

I just thought I would throw this out and get some input. Maybe people starting builds or progressing along will be able to gain or keep some focus as they move forward.

Remeber, You can't have 1000hp TT taste on a 350hp Q-jet budget!

What's everyone think? :cheers: :lateral:
Im one of "those" But Im selling for health reasons. In a year or two I could finish it but I just hate to have it sit. I bought parts for the time were in. In a couple years who knows what new parts will be out. Then what are my parts worth?
I look at it like this. I dont have to sell it. If I dont Ill finish it later. But Im giving someone else a chance to build a car with top of the line parts for thousands off!

[XLexusTech]

Perhaps its because the price of finished projects is down driving folks to cut bait and look to pick up a nice car cheap

[XcYZ]

I also think a big part of it is time. It takes a long time to finish a huge project and I think a lot of people get burnt out on spending money over a period of years and never getting to enjoy it.

I've seen the exact same thing in the restoration side of the hobby, too.

[Stuart Adams]

The situation is multifactorial. First it takes twice as long to build. Within that time things come up and life can change, especially if its 2-4 years as most are. With those normal life changes over a 2-4 year period, money situations possibly change, creating whole new set of reality. Secondly, the project ALWAYS costs 2-3X more than you think. No matter what level of build it is. You combine a triple expense with a double time period and given the chances of life changes, cars get sold early, projects get put on the back burner, etc.

Love the PT cars. None better for me.

[J2SpeedandCustom]

Scott hit the nail on the head. The majority of projects get to that stage where the owner starts to justify the amount of money spent and the amount needed to be spent. Then you look at what you "could" buy with that money, and the doubt starts to creep in.

I tell all of our customer this, "How many times are you going to build (insert car make/model here)? Everyone always says "once". I say, "So then take your time enjoy the process and do what you want within your means." If it takes 10 yrs, then it takes 10 yrs. In the end you will have the car of your dreams and all those memories to look back on.

Some of the projects I see end up costing "double" when a clear plan isn't followed. I call that "scope creep". And this site is great at doing that. I see stuff on here all the time, that makes me drool! In my mind this is the NUMBER 1 thing to a successful project - staying on plan.

[Teetoe_Jones]

For me it's a bit of both. I learned some hard lessons along the way, lost lots of cash, and ended up having to re-do everything at least twice. I guess for me I was running into uncharted territory; I was planning 50/50 in 1998, and started building it in 99 at the age of 22. No one had ever tried a transaxle back then, and full frame cars were almost unheard of.

Now I find that I should have kept that green car as a running, driving, enjoyable vehicle. Now I'm way over 6 figures in the damn thing, and it's almost back to square one. Body kit prototyping? Trash. First full frame? Trash. All the metal work we did? Rusted. Running/driving again? At this pace, another decade.

Now I'm selling one, or both of my 68 Camaros. Which ever sells first will determine what I do with the cash made. If the black car sells first, then I keep 50/50 and give Rodger all my cash and start walking to work. If 50/50 sells, then the black car gets a new F&R suspension, vinyl wrap and LSX/T56 upgrade.

This is the most expensive hobby to be in at the moment.

Tyler

[67ragtp]

I've noticed the same thing lately. All kinds of projects not even half done with a boat load of quality parts. The fact of the matter is they will need to take a hurting of at least half to off load the project.

These projects take a long time to plan and execute. They Always cost more than you think. They are also the first to go in any hardship. This site is horrible for the check book. If I knew then what I know now, I probably wouldn't of built this car. I have to be honest. I have way to much money tied up in it. I'm my own worst enemy. Remind me to never build a custom house. :rofl:

With out getting to personal I dont understand when people say "if I new then what I know now" the future cant be predicted. You obviously have a huge passion for this hobby, perhaps you may have built your car differently. Is it knowing the state of the economy now as opposed to then and not spending the funds at all. At some point your passion is going to lead you in to spending it now or later.

I built my 67 around the same time, and spent a boat load, I dont regret it. Im doing another one now and have a basement full of high dollar parts, it will get done, you are right about the execution taking a long time, for me it always seems that Im waiting on a vendor, and it becomes out of my control.

Maybe poor planning is responsible for a lot of projects being on the market. I think its a combination of long term projects especially the ones that go on for years and then financial hardship forcing the sale.

Rich

[LSX69]

I think a lot of guys jump into the project before truly adding everything up. I know I really wanted to put an ls in my car and thought ill just save up 5k and buy a good used one with a trans on ebay. Well after that I realized by the time I change the fuel tank, fittings/lines, mounts, tuning, accessories, etc.. im in near another 5k. And once you buy one part you feel obligated to buy the other stuff to accomidate it. I know im not the only one who has done this. After doing this three or four times you are way over budget and possibly in debt with a long way to go. I guess that is why they say hindsight is 20-20.

[chr2002ca]

Yep, same stuff happened to me during my build, and mine wasn't half as complex as some of these I see out there. Much more time and money than I thought it would be. And I'm still spending to get it right. It just goes on and on. That's the very reason why I dumped all the details into my own build site, to give people some realistic insight into what it really takes and how all those small things and parts and costs really add up. My site is more of a 'warning' than anything. A few of the people who have signed my guestbook have mentioned things like "thanks for opening my eyes" and "I had no idea", so I hope maybe my passing along of details is helping a few people in one way or another.

Yes, Lateral-g has cost me some money also, but without it and the contributions of all its members, I probably would have never built my car and made some great friends from here. So to hell with my empty wallet, it was worth it.

[akrapovic]

Just a sign of the times. I attribute some situations creating to a budget when times were good. Followed by being too far into the project to adjust when our economy crashed. Luckily I never had the capital to dream of building a six figure car so I still have mine. I will agree though it kinda bugs me at times when I think about the other things I could've spent my money on. Oh well, love the car and wouldn't change a thing.

[awesometool]

I think most of it comes down to cash. If I was half way thru my build now it would be up for sale. Times are not what they were before it’s going be a couple of years until that changes. I could not walk past a half done project “pile of cash” in the garage when the wife is trying to scrap every penny for bills and food shopping. My work is really slow and if it stays that way I will sell it completed for a loss and be ok with it. The first things to go are the toys in bad times.

[GregWeld]

This whole discussion is EXACTLY why I personally chose to build my own "shed" -- and stuff it full of tools -- and I choose to do 98% of my own work... Okay -- I fully understand that I have the TIME and money to do that... and many people don't have the time - but have the funds etc. But I - and many people I know - chose to "invest" in their HOBBY and plan to continue to invest over a long period of time - to be able to continue to do what they love doing. I have a couple real "average" cars... it's the best I can do... they're never "done" - and have lots of road rash... I've restored the same car several times... It's a hobby.

#1 - I can afford to buy any car I want = repeatedly - so what! Who cares. NOBODY.

#2 - I like DRIVING my cars not showing them... so it's a different build level for ME. I don't want something I can't enjoy anytime anywhere. Look what Charley does with his cars - tell me he's not having F U N... and it doesn't have to be a RING Brothers build (keep reading)

#3 - It's a HOBBY -- not a bigger "D***" process for me personally. I LOVE reading about how much FUN Steve R is having with his car... But I don't have to build one like it... I love seeing the RS Corvette being thrashed at Optima... but I'll never own a car anywhere near as kool...

#4 - I understand my limitations - and build what I can... budget is not the constraint for me - skill is... but by building stuff yourself - your skills gradually get better. (keep reading)

#5 - It's a HOBBY. Mark Stielow works all day with cars - and comes home and "relaxes" by building one for himself. :hail: :hail:

#6 - I'm eternally grateful for the pros and the people willing to do pro builds. It's what lifts us all up and what we shoot for... like pro sports stars.. but I still have to wipe the drool off and build what I can. Only in my dreams will I EVER be able to do anything near some of these guys.

#7 - It's ALWAYS all about the money.... I don't care what anyone says... If money is no object - then the builds get finished - finished quicker - and then they get sold 'cause they're worth more done than the sum of their parts rusting and dusty in a heap.

#8 - It's a HOBBY. Try to keep it just that, regardless of the level someone else is capable of.

#9 - This website doesn't cause people to spend too much money on a build... A persons EGO causes them to spend money they can't afford to spend. It's like a gun doesn't kill people - people kill people... some use a gun.

#10 - I'm always sorry to see someone sell their dreams. Hopefully it's a good learning experience... and they'll stick with this HOBBY and perhaps be a bit more reasonable with their expectations.

#11 - It's a HOBBY... Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans.

I'm not "dumping" on anyone here - nor pointing any fingers - nor trying to cause a fight and flame session.... But the fact is - whether we're building a house - remodeling one - or doing a car - or a boat... "WE" can all get over our heads whether thats time management - skill level - or wallet size... And one of my favorite sayings is - I don't care how much money you make - you have the ABILITY to spend more...

MY HOBBY comments are made because if it's a hobby -- hobbies take time - over a long period of time - and should never be based on "what it's going to be worth". If these builds get canceled because they're not going to be "worth" continuing - then the builder/owner shouldn't have started in the first place. That was NEVER what this hobby was.... and if you think it was - then you've been watching WAY TOO MUCH Barrett Jackson. :rofl:

I'll leave it with this... I love fussing with my hobby -- but I love fussing around with the FRIENDS I've made because of my hobby, more. In the end - it's about the PEOPLE - not the cars... The pasta is just there to get the sauce to your face.. cars are that way for me... I've met GREAT people of all walks of life because the car hobby makes me get out and do stuff... I have friends whose cars break down every time they drive them... and I'm called upon to help rescue them... and we always end up having fun with the "experience". I have friends that have MILLIONS of dollars invested in cars... and we have just as much fun blowing their stuff up - or scheming about "what coulda shoulda"...

I'd like to have Ironworks - or Prodigy - or Comp-Spec build me a car - but not because I want to impress any of you with how much I can spend - I'd do it because I'd love to hang with them - and learn from them - and be friends long after the build was finished... I can buy their shops and close 'em up and never skip a beat... but I'd sweep their floors for months just to be around what they're doing. Does that make sense to anyone? It's why we all hang around Lat G isn't it? The hobby. I don't care if people even own a car... if they love the hobby and choose to participate, regardless of their level. :cheers:

[70rs]

[QUOTE=GregWeld;259859[/......but I'd sweep their floors for months just to be around what they're doing. Does that make sense to anyone? It's why we all hang around Lat G isn't it? The hobby. I don't care if people even own a car... if they love the hobby and choose to participate, regardless of their level. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

This sums it up for me as well. :cheers:

[DocJr]

I'm just a young'n, but I listen and watch people. I do think many people's visions are too big for theyre account (I could be wrong haha)

It's a hobby that costs money. I don't want to to judge, but I feel you have to have money to be in this hobby, unfortunatley I don't, and thats why you dont see pics of my '69 Olds in the project section. (Rendering's in the art section) LOL

I think the cost of buying parts makes for a reasonable build, it's when you hire someone to assemble those parts, it becomes expensive...it has to be, its called profit.

I've noticed what you guys said already is true, this site pushes people, could be a good or bad thing, IMO you have to know what you want. Heres an example...Im not buying an LS engine for my Olds. I know what I want, my olds is a mix of pro touring/pro street. The engine I want is a 700+hp, 12:1 455. I like ole' Skool compression....(It sounds better) LOL

Some can argue that my engine will cost as much if not more than buying an LS, but that's not my point. Some people are swayed a little more, they have to be the best of the best, and thats a good way to blow your budget...you always want more.

When it comes down to it...I think the main thing to think about is time. When you dont have the money, you dont have the money, store the car live your life, return to it later. I for one, don't envision paying someone 6 figures to build my Olds (Unless I become a big name car designer). As of now, I plan on building it myself, and just pay parts and meterials....

Adding to that.. I feel you would apprectiate your car more too. I'm restoring my own trim right now (As minute as it may sound) It's very rewarding (and if someone was to scratch it, I would kill 'em!)

That's just my opinion of course, I hope I don't cause any conflict haha

[EddDeeEye]

Good topic, and I'm hoping not to fall into the category. I think you really, really have to love this hobby to spend as much money as we do on a 30 - 40 year old vehicle. Is it worth it? Each of us has to answer that for ourselves.

[96z28ss]

I'd sweep their floors for months just to be around what they're doing. Does that make sense to anyone? It's why we all hang around Lat G isn't it? The hobby. I don't care if people even own a car... if they love the hobby and choose to participate, regardless of their level. :cheers:

Greg, you should do a road trip, Start sweeping at Tony's house, then my house, then Brunning shop floor, then ... etc. 'll even grill you a burger to eat, to keep your energy level up.

[Romulus]

Greg, you should do a road trip, Start sweeping at Tony's house, then my house, then Brunning shop floor, then ... etc. 'll even grill you a burger to eat, to keep your energy level up.

Greg,

I'll come with ya. I'll make sure to keep the dust pan empty while you sweep. With two of us, we can trade off drivers and cover twice as many shops.

There'd be an awful lot of clean shops and two very happy campers. If I ever win the lottery, that's my idea of a cross country experience. *

disclaimer: I'd actually have to play the lottery to win I suppose. :P

[waynieZ]

I agree with Greg When I was 16 I met the guy who is going to paint my car for me. I'm 54 and he's been doing paint work before I knew him. I used to hang around his garage all the time . I did masking block sanding and other small stuff for him , not for pay but it was where I hung around. What ever he needed I would be glad to help. I was away from his garage for quite a few years until I got back into the hobby. When I went to see him and show him my car it was like I never left. I sliped back in like it was 30 years ago. These people will be my friends for the rest of my life whether we see each other all the time or not.

When I started my build I was working 26-2700 hours a year. My wife and I talked and decided I would keep anything over what we needed to live our lives, for the car. It was easy to pick up parts for my build. Then I had to quit what I was doing because of my health, luckely I had a good pension to fall back on. It will definately slow me down but anything I got or had done to the car, I had the money to pay for it. So if it has to wait it will. The money I've spent so far I could have had it done back to # match for less but its not what I wanted. Someday I will make it to a Powertour with my car but that will have to wait too, which will make it that much sweeter when it happens.

Home and family comes first and the hobby has no experation date. I hope it works out for all who have fallen on hard time.
Wayne

[ironworks]

I have had quite a few customers that have gone through this in the past year or so. I see 2 kinds of customers,

1) DRUG ADDICT - These guys walk in my shop and look at everyone elses cars in shop, due to their passion for the journey of creativity and fabrication. If you were a by stander and saw some of these customers walk in my door, you would be hard pressed to know which car in the shop is theirs. These guys like the Journey more then the destination.

2) Big EGO guys - You have the guy who walks and thinks his car is the only one in the shop. The world revolves around him. He is just here for the laundry list of mods. He looks at you as the bidder for the work he is looking to have done. Not so much worried about quality or what have you, Just wants A, B, and C. He wants to be in the scene or be like that bad ass guy in high school that he never was. Most truly rich guys that are like this just buy cars at Barret Jackson. Or they realize to even be the big shot you have to have the latest greatest.

3) There is a very rare 3rd type that, Comes in and does not know anything and with education will choose quality and not the lowest bidder. These guys are usually referrals, they know and trust you from an outside source. I have only had one of these guys in 9 years. He did not know what whitewall tires, or even a small block Chevy was. He did not know what a burn out was. ( Seriously ). He wanted a 1946 Packard 4 door to be restored so he could drive it from California to Florida. I told him for months we did not restore cars. Now he has an LS engine 1946 Packard that looks super original, but will be a 6 figure car and he is cool with that.

The reason I give a description is this splits the guys into the point in life where they might sell the project when times get tough. And there are exceptions. But guy # 2 would be the first to sell his car, cuz more then likely he is over extended in his trying to keep up with the Jone's. Sometimes I wonder if those Jone's get any commission.

Guy #1 would probably let the house go back to the bank and the old lady leave him on the corner with his project, but he will never sell that car. These guys have to get broken down pretty far in order give up their dreams. But these guys don't do much else as far as hobbies, these guys eat sleep and breath building cars. When they are done with their latest project they are thinking about the next.

I think it might be pretty amazing how thin a car guy might spread them selves to see their dream come to life. I think there are more projects that never get finished then those that actually do. I have heard some of my customers tell me that a drug habit would be cheaper then what they spend on cars each month. Just due to the fact, your body could not possibly do that much drugs.

When you get into the higher end cars the percentage of your income that is spent on cars I thinks gets lower. If a guy makes 40 grand a year, I could see him spend 10% of that if his financial position would allow it. Do you think a guy smart enough to make a million a year will spend 100 grand each year? Not as likely. This hobby is expensive.

I think the state of our economy has shown how thin people have spread themselves. And it also shows how bad some people may actually have it these days.

[tones2SS]

Home and family comes first and the hobby has no experation date. I hope it works out for all who have fallen on hard time.
Wayne

VERY TRUE WAYNE!! Well said my man. I agree 100%. Take care of your responsibilities first, toys second.
But, I do think a lot of the builds have come "under fire" because of the current economy. Just about everyone is taking a hit with that. Time also plays an important role. But, you must beforehand that these builds cost LOTS of time & money!!! Preparation is key!
Good luck to all!:thumbsup: :cheers:

[GregWeld]

I have to add just one little bit more...

I have a buddy - a retired butcher... he has a 56 Nomad too... it's a pretty decent 30 footer... and mechanically challenged... He's running an cast off set of headers I gave him - and my old Heidts tubular A arms w/disc brakes up front... and until recently had the original (rebuilt) 265 and a powerglide... There's an "early horse blanket" on the front seat...

BUT this guy gets more SMILES PER MILE than any man I've ever known... and I don't care where you go - he knows everybody and everybody knows him. Nobody EVER says a bad word about him - or his car... except... they do shake their head with amazement when he tells them he's just driven it round trip to Colorado - or Hot August Nights - or Boise... He doesn't own a wrench... doesn't even have a garage. The car is parked in a carport when not being driven... He put cardboard under it to catch the drips.

Recently - a group of his friends stuffed a 350 and a TH350 in it over a weekend and a lot of beer.... he's there to step and fetch tools - and to open another one... He has ZERO grease on himself... nobody cares.

He L O V E S his car... and all the PEOPLE that go with it. I envy him.

[GregWeld]

Greg, you should do a road trip, Start sweeping at Tony's house, then my house, then Brunning shop floor, then ... etc. 'll even grill you a burger to eat, to keep your energy level up.

ROAD TRIP! ROAD TRIP! ROAD TRIP!

I'm in!

Have broom - will travel!


:lateral: :cheers: :woot:

[Vegas69]

The economy isn't my excuse, I felt the downturn before the first bolt was pulled off my car. About mid 2006. I don't live beyond my means but don't tell me there aren't a few decision you've made that you look back on and go hmmm... Anyway, I don't regret building my car. I love my car and wouldn't sell it for $150k.(I know that won't happent) I simply wouldn't want to go back through the process of building it. I'm not one of those guys that enjoys the process more than the finish line. I like to beat the piss out of my stuff. If it get's cone rash all the way down the side, :D I just smile. It comes off, if it doesn't then it will get fixed when I freshen it up down the road. I guess what I meant was if I knew then what I know now, I would have bought a car with reasonable paint and made the changes to that car. I probably wouldn't of built it quite this nice either. The problem is, once you're all in, you're all in. You must protect your investment and the flow of the car. Luckily, I have done a major load of the work and that's saved me alot of cash. I can't imgagine paying someone to do all the little stuff. It just adds up so fast and really makes the car.

With out getting to personal I dont understand when people say "if I new then what I know now" the future cant be predicted. You obviously have a huge passion for this hobby, perhaps you may have built your car differently. Is it knowing the state of the economy now as opposed to then and not spending the funds at all. At some point your passion is going to lead you in to spending it now or later.

I built my 67 around the same time, and spent a boat load, I dont regret it. Im doing another one now and have a basement full of high dollar parts, it will get done, you are right about the execution taking a long time, for me it always seems that Im waiting on a vendor, and it becomes out of my control.

Maybe poor planning is responsible for a lot of projects being on the market. I think its a combination of long term projects especially the ones that go on for years and then financial hardship forcing the sale.

Rich

[HRBS]

Have broom - will travel!

Greg... my shop floor is a little dirty. Any chance you traveling east bound ? :lol:

[Jon69RagTop]

Although I haven't met you in person, I hope someday we get a chance to have a few beers together. I love what you have to say, and you articulate it so nicely.

I have the Green 69 Camaro in "Projects" called LS3 Transplant, and wish like hell I had more car buddies locally. Soo many people look at what I'm building (other than my wife, she gets it) and think I'm nuts and ask "why?". How can you explain it other than it's what I enjoy and how I relax. I agree driving the parts of Power Tour over the years has s allowed me to meet a ton of nice car folks, but wrenching with friends would be even better.

Your post made my day!!!:thumbsup:

[98ssnova]

We need a neiborhood based around PT car's like living on a golf course but we will just have gargages in the hood and you will have to own or be able to contribute to the hobby???? anyone with me....:lateral:

[fleetus macmullitz]

I have to add just one little bit more...

I have a buddy - a retired butcher... he has a 56 Nomad too... it's a pretty decent 30 footer... and mechanically challenged... He's running an cast off set of headers I gave him - and my old Heidts tubular A arms w/disc brakes up front... and until recently had the original (rebuilt) 265 and a powerglide... There's an "early horse blanket" on the front seat...

BUT this guy gets more SMILES PER MILE than any man I've ever known... and I don't care where you go - he knows everybody and everybody knows him. Nobody EVER says a bad word about him - or his car... except... they do shake their head with amazement when he tells them he's just driven it round trip to Colorado - or Hot August Nights - or Boise... He doesn't own a wrench... doesn't even have a garage. The car is parked in a carport when not being driven... He put cardboard under it to catch the drips.

Recently - a group of his friends stuffed a 350 and a TH350 in it over a weekend and a lot of beer.... he's there to step and fetch tools - and to open another one... He has ZERO grease on himself... nobody cares.

He L O V E S his car... and all the PEOPLE that go with it. I envy him.

Great way to paint a picture Greg...

I like the simplicity of the whole thing.

Best post I've read in awhile. :thumbsup:

[DOOM]

Im one of "those" But Im selling for health reasons. In a year or two I could finish it but I just hate to have it sit. I bought parts for the time were in. In a couple years who knows what new parts will be out. Then what are my parts worth?
I look at it like this. I dont have to sell it. If I dont Ill finish it later. But Im giving someone else a chance to build a car with top of the line parts for thousands off!

Take care of your health issues first !! Hope all is going to be okay!! Sux but I hear where your coming from...:cheers:

[67ragtp]

The economy isn't my excuse, I felt the downturn before the first bolt was pulled off my car. About mid 2006. I don't live beyond my means but don't tell me there aren't a few decision you've made that you look back on and go hmmm... Anyway, I don't regret building my car. I love my car and wouldn't sell it for $150k.(I know that won't happent) I simply wouldn't want to go back through the process of building it. I'm not one of those guys that enjoys the process more than the finish line. I like to beat the piss out of my stuff. If it get's cone rash all the way down the side, :D I just smile. It comes off, if it doesn't then it will get fixed when I freshen it up down the road. I guess what I meant was if I knew then what I know now, I would have bought a car with reasonable paint and made the changes to that car. I probably wouldn't of built it quite this nice either. The problem is, once you're all in, you're all in. You must protect your investment and the flow of the car. Luckily, I have done a major load of the work and that's saved me alot of cash. I can't imgagine paying someone to do all the little stuff. It just adds up so fast and really makes the car.

Todd- Thats cool, I get it. I guess I fall into the catogory of the big chase and love to build, I too try to do as much myself and it truly does save a lot of money. This allows me to spend the money on the expensive big ticket items, definatly the Drug Attic. Now where do I find that rehab center :rofl:

With out a doubt, you guys have made my car building journeys educational and cost effective and your a fine group of coconuts as well.

Rich

[Northeast Rod Run]

hobbies take time - over a long period of time - and should never be based on "what it's going to be worth". If these builds get canceled because they're not going to be "worth" continuing - then the builder/owner shouldn't have started in the first place. That was NEVER what this hobby was.... and if you think it was - then you've been watching WAY TOO MUCH Barrett Jackson. :rofl:
after reading through this entire thread, this one quote states exactly the way I have always thought when it comes to cars. my Camaro is nothing special, but after I built it (for the second or third time), friends and family kept telling me that I'm wasting my money because I'll never get the money back. I just told them it doesn't matter, and they will never understand.

some people think I've "wasted" too much money on cars in my life. I think they've "wasted" too much time not enjoying life.

[COYBILT]

I am the second paragraph, My car was a mistake. I never meant to go all out crazy on it.

[ccracin]

Wow, I never imagined when I was eating my lunch at work today and starting this thread based on an off the cuff conversation that this kind of insight would be laid out. Thanks to everyone that has posted so far. I think anyone working on or starting a project would be well served to read through what all you guys have had to say.

Personally, I am trying to stay focused because the project I am working on is my Dad's. He has trusted me to bring his dream vehicle to reality. He has work multiple jobs (construction) all his life to provide for our family. He has let me do whatever I wanted. I've raced go-karts, rode atv's, he put me through college, we built my 69 Camaro in High School, we raced stock cars and now it is his turn. That's why it is important to me to actually get to the end of this project.

Other than changing engine choices (which he was fully in favor of) we have tried to avoid alot of these pit falls. We try to plan steps ahead so that we know where the expenses are and what we have to spend each step.

We also try not to buy then re-buy. For example we almost fell into the "Bigger Brake" pit. We have 13" 6 piston Wilwoods for the front and 12" 4 Piston for the rear. Then they came out with the 14" stuff. Do we NEED 14" 6 piston mono-blocks all the way around for what he wants to do with the truck. NOPE! Were they new, trick, and twice the price YES! That extra 14-1500 will be used very well someplace else.

Even trying to be smart, this stuff is still expensive.

In the end, no matter what it turns out like I would never trade the time my Dad and I are spending together working on this truck. The new friends that I have met along the way from this site and other places are just bonuses! It's not just about the cars.

:cheers:

[RECOVERY ROOM]

ROAD TRIP! ROAD TRIP! ROAD TRIP!

I'm in!

Have broom - will travel!


:lateral: :cheers: :woot:

I have 5 acres of grass to mow this summer,I will let you use my tractor :lol:

[gearheads78]

I'm on the same page a Greg just with a lot less tools (for now:unibrow: )

I am a car guy through the bone. Even waisted 7 years in a marriage with a girl that kept me away from them. Now she is gone and I am happy with my understanding wife :lol:

I will own many projects in my life. Some will finish so will not but I will be collecting tools and equipment the whole way to do it myself.

I know my limitations with money and I won't put myself under water.

[rwhite692]

I am in a phase of my life now (3.5 year old daughter whom I can't get enough of, very busy with work, etc) where I don't have much time at all for building my car, so it will take a long time to complete, and that's just fine with me. When I was younger (and especially when I was single!), it seemed time was relatively unlimited and I was banging out big project after big project...For me, I like the building of the car as much, if not more, than when they are finished. So nowadays I am focused on setting up my small garage/shop, and working a lot slower than I used to.

I keep costs in control (my definition, not my wife's!) by mostly buying new or slightly used parts secondhand, wherever possible. That way I don't feel like I have a giant amount of "real" money tied up in the project. I tell people all the time, that if you just have the patience to wait, and you keep your eyes open, the parts you want, will most likely come around.

[DOOM]

Greg well said ! I don't know about that pasta thing though!:lol:

[66LS7]

This turned out to be a very good thread for any new car builds & builds that are in progress to use as a gauge for there projects.:lateral:



Randy(D&Z Customs LLC.)
[email protected]
1-262-347-9741

[speedshftr]

i get depressed when i cant buy billet hinges ,lsx engine, paddle shift ect.then i start to think about a few years ago when i was in the hospital for 14 days .my half ass pro touring camaro is a luxury in my life and it will wait for me no matter how many years it takes.
i used to make very good money,i bought 5 vipers 3 vettes numerous hot rods ect all in like 6 years.someone underbid all my contract work and now im out.it was a life changing ordeal but i have my health.i buy a few small parts here and there now and ive learned to live with doing without stuff .it sucks that alot of guys get frustrated and sell but everyone has different things going on in there lives.not being able to finish a car build is better than losing your house .sorry for my grammer im working on it.:unibrow:

[GregWeld]

Well... I wasn't trying to write a book, but thanks to those that 'understand'. I was just trying to convey what the hobby is for me. I know it's different for everyone... but the history of the hobby is more about a bunch of guys building stuff together... with what skills and parts they had to offer...

Lat G is kind of a modern version of that... we can meet whenever we want to... and offer what we can - encouragement - disgust - the finger (from Todd) - ideas - and the camaraderie.

I want the pro builds to be awesome... and if my stuff can just copy 10% of it - I'm a happy guy... without the pros and the pro builds we will have lost something to dream about. SO kudos to all of those guys! To me - the pro builds are like Pro athletes... without the pros - we wouldn't have millions of kids out there trying to be just like them...

I had no idea there were so many dirty shop floors out there!!:lol:

[HRBS]

On a serious thread related note, we are currently building a shop car that (i hope) most people will relate too. In a sea of current high caliber / high profile builds, i set out to build a car that most people can afford. After years of trying to keep up with the jones's etc the reality is that most of the people calling or visiting the shop cant relate to why a car of that caliber costs so much. I as much as the next guy love a great piece of eye candy that can and will whip up on a new vette but the bottom line is that most people cant afford such a build. I get a few calls a week from people that want a complete custom pro-touring with the usual LS, 6sp, 14" 6 pistons mini tubed, paint, interior etc etc then say they have $10k cash. What am I to say to that ?
So after a long design and thought process it was apparent that I should try to meet the demand of those who inquire. First we chose a car we believe is becoming very popular right now. Then we set out to minimize cost by lessening the amount of fabrication (which simply is time multiplied by hourly rate) and focuss on attention to detail while using for the most part aftermarket bolt-on parts in lieu of over the top fabrication mods. It will most certainly be as eye popping and appealing as most high end builds without the extra performance mods that drive a TRUE pro-touring machines build cost up and place them in a performance catogory of there own. That said, will it compete with them ? Definetly NOT because most people will do more street driving than track racing. Will it be of the same caliber as one ? Definetly NOT by a longshot. But it will make people think that something practical can be built with somewhat of a normal mans wallet.
We'll post a build thread soon.

ps... great thread.

[rwhite692]

.....In the end, no matter what it turns out like I would never trade the time my Dad and I are spending together working on this truck....


Chad you are so right, those are the memories that matter most... not a day goes by that I don't think about the times spent with my Dad. Great that you have this in common, enjoy every possible minute. -Rob

[jjump59]

Hi, my name is Jeff and i'm an addict. isn't that the first step, admitting you have a problem? I have one car pretty much finished and I have very little interest in it. I've moved on to the next one. For me it's all about building, fabing, gathering the parts and making the decisions on which way to go. When the ideas get completed I move on to the next challenge. I also have a hard time letting go of them even though I dont dricve them or do anything with them. I only seem to let go when space is an issue. Do i need help or what?

[Vegas69]

I just don't get it. How can you spend 1000's of hours and not drive the car. To me that's like chasing a hot chick, taking her out dancing(I hate dancing), romancing her, and you finally get her buck naked and don't go the distance. Getting that far was good enough. That makes me want to bang my head on the wall just thinking about it. :rofl: Just seeing mine ripped apart in the garage is less than exciting. In fact, I'm almost to the point where I only work on it so I can drive it or make it faster. Of course I'm towards the end of a very long build here. The do overs aren't that great either. I guess if you never drive them you don't have to worry about that now do you? LOL Maybe I'm just bitter because mines broke!

[Karl Buchka]

I just don't get it. How can you spend 1000's of hours and not drive the car. To me that's like chasing a hot chick, taking her out dancing(I hate dancing), romancing her, and you finally get her buck naked and don't go the distance. Getting that far was good enough. That makes me want to bang my head on the wall just thinking about it. :rofl: Just seeing mine ripped apart in the garage is less than exciting. In fact, I'm almost to the point where I only work on it so I can drive it or make it faster. Of course I'm towards the end of a very long build here. The do overs aren't that great either. I guess if you never drive them you don't have to worry about that now do you? LOL Maybe I'm just bitter because mines broke!

For me, reaching the end of the excersize has never been the point of the excersize. You have difficulty seeing why someone spends all that time on car that doesn't drive just like I have difficulty seeing someone give someone else a six figure sum to build them a car.

I could always pay someone else to put a car together for me, but what does that give me other than an empty wallet?

When I finish a project and get it on the road, the only thing I can think of is "ok, what now?". That is not to say I don't enjoy driving the cars I build, I just happen to prefer the building process. And that's (a) why I'll never get rid of my projects in a half-finished state and (b) why my projects are never finished.

There are times when I would rather dump the car off a cliff than work on it, but I always come back to it.

[Van B]

Remind me to never build a custom house. :rofl:

Been there, done that. My wife actually printed up $1000 bills with our picture on the face because every time we turned around, we were dropping another g note because we figured "we've gone this far, we may as well add that".

Now my Camaro went the same route, with half of the DSE catalog on it and more billet widgets than you can count on your fingers and toes.

[Al Moreno]

OK, Flame suit on!

I think a lot of the project for sales are guys who to a second mortgage on the home to build a toy.

My philosophy is not that thing are to expensive, it's that you can't afford it.

As long as we deal with thing on the outside, you'll never fix the problem which is you.

Go out and make it happen, take care of the family and your responsibilities and than you can buy your toy and you wont have to worry about the economy or whatever.

You have to think winter in the summer.
Don't wish things were easier, wish you were better.
Don't wish for less problems, which for more skills.

OK, off the soap box.

:cheers:

[Camaroguy]

I believe alot of the most projects problems are two things:

1) We have alot of high profile cars on this site and not very many times is the true price of what those cars cost to build shared with the public. A guy just getting started or not very experienced wants to build a car like we see on this site and has no clue of what that will cost him to fully complete. Most have no idea how long it even takes a shop to assemble a car after all fab and paint is done. This leads to my next point.

2) In the last few years we have had a bunch of new shops come to the table and try to build these cars for our members. Most time the new shop is not experienced enough to accurately relay to the customer what it would cost and low balls just to get the work. Then half way through he has burned through the guys budget and the car is not anywhere close to being done and most of time is not done right. I have seen several cars that guys have spent hard earned money on and have to pay someone again to fix the problem. We have a couple on this site that have been bit by this. So if you want high end go to the guys that are proven. It costs alot of money so just understand that.

This is a great thread and could go on forever, just some input!

[MoparCar]

I'm building a Mopar (not much for economical parts) pro-touring project.

I really feel that the majority of people on this site and PT.com can't afford the pro builder to actually build the project (at least I can't!). I do think that there are some exceptions or possibly someone without the fab skills, shop, space, time, commitment and a large desire that hires the complete build. Nothing wrong with that at all. I wish I could for a lot of the build..no flame I appreciate the pro builder and those hiring these awesome shops!

I know my industry (electrical construction/management-I'm a project manager) has take a very large hit this last year. I'd say 1/3 less wage this year and most likely next. So that in line I definitely look at costs and it does slow the process of the build. Everything depends on the next big purchase. Tranny=crossmember and angle, mini tubs=rear suspension=rear end width=suspension, etc. etc. etc.

It is sad that some major projects are being sold right now. But if it is to save the house, feed the family, etc. So be it. Otherwise i hope they hang on an ride it out The car will still be there next year!

Wes

[monza]

Remind me to never build a custom house. :rofl:


Been there, done that. My wife actually printed up $1000 bills with our picture on the face because every time we turned around, we were dropping another g note because we figured "we've gone this far, we may as well add that".



Yea, just finished that as well... If you think a car has cost over runs it's nothing compared to a custom house! Doom and gloom needs to end. It's making the car hobby less fun....

[Flash68]

Remind me to never build a custom house. :rofl:

At least if you do it right and have a good sense of market understanding and timing, you can and will make money with that house.

I also think a big part of it is time. It takes a long time to finish a huge project and I think a lot of people get burnt out on spending money over a period of years and never getting to enjoy it.

I've seen the exact same thing in the restoration side of the hobby, too.


The situation is multifactorial. First it takes twice as long to build. Within that time things come up and life can change, especially if its 2-4 years as most are. With those normal life changes over a 2-4 year period, money situations possibly change, creating whole new set of reality. Secondly, the project ALWAYS costs 2-3X more than you think. No matter what level of build it is. You combine a triple expense with a double time period and given the chances of life changes, cars get sold early, projects get put on the back burner, etc.



You guys nailed it there.

I just don't get it. How can you spend 1000's of hours and not drive the car. To me that's like chasing a hot chick, taking her out dancing(I hate dancing), romancing her, and you finally get her buck naked and don't go the distance. Getting that far was good enough. That makes me want to bang my head on the wall just thinking about it. :rofl: Just seeing mine ripped apart in the garage is less than exciting. In fact, I'm almost to the point where I only work on it so I can drive it or make it faster. Of course I'm towards the end of a very long build here. The do overs aren't that great either. I guess if you never drive them you don't have to worry about that now do you? LOL Maybe I'm just bitter because mines broke!

Todd, you're always good for a laugh. But that analogy is pretty spot on for me! I get pissed when I think it's taken 3 years to build my frickin car.

OK, Flame suit on!

I think a lot of the project for sales are guys who to a second mortgage on the home to build a toy.

My philosophy is not that thing are to expensive, it's that you can't afford it.


This can very well be true in some of the cases, but you don't know that for sure.

It can simply be a matter of prioritization.

Great thread!

[DFRESH]

Great thread! Seems like I can identify with a part of every single post made thus far. I personally like Greg's comments about the added feature of the hobby bringing new friends along your path--it is a great ancillary side affect.

Personally, since I got my first 69 at the age of 16 and still have it, it was all I ever wanted--never got into any form of drinking or drugs, spent every waking moment and every penny on that car---it's now my race car. For me, back then, it was a form of identity. Now, it is purely for the love of the hobby/sport and the friends and fellowship that come with it. I can honestly say that I am emotionally attached to the race car--it carried me though and kept me occupied through some tough times. I've had people ask me how I can be so into this (doesnt' make sense to some of them as professionals) since I don't fit their perception of a gearhead---I don't want to know why I love it---ignorance is bliss in this case---and I'm glad I still have such a huge passion for it.

I say all that to say this---for many folks, it's still a form of identity--we all know some of these guys/gals where it is hardcore identity--and when that's the case, they will have to have the best of everything--and if that shoe fits, man--this site has the capacity to destroy a savings account quickly which often forces the sale of the project. There are so many perfect and off the chart cars here---it's like going grocery shopping hungry--you come back with way too much food which means you spent way more than you should have.

I've fallen into spending way too much so many times simply out of just not wanting to wait---I call that greed--sounds like I am not the only one!

I like my new approach with the PT car, one mod at a time---refine that mod, move onto the next one--it will never be the nicest car, but I dont' care. It has to be fun and I don't want a blown apart project--I have the race car for that--and it sucks to have to work on it all the time and then wait for what will break next. If it starts to be a "have to work on it" for me, then I will think about getting rid of it.

In the end, there are obviously many reasons for the abandement of unfinished projects. I always have a soft spot in my heart for those who run into this since I can't imagine them sharing the same passion I/we feel for these cars and then having to let it go---family first, I understand that--but the death or end of a dream is very, very hard to take. A good solid plan up front (I'm convinced) like others here have mentioned, and an rock solid commitment to stick to it (which is even harder to make happen) is the only way to go for someone starting out in this hobby/sport. It's what I will tell my kids when they are old enough to get swept up into this wonderful mess.

Doug

[Vegas69]

Doug,
I agree after speaking with you a few times that you don't fit the boiler plate car addict personaltiy. In fact after dealing with literally 1,000's of folks over the years I'd nail you at a psychologist or financial advisor. I'm sure I'm way off.

I envy you a little bit. You have the perfect car for exaclty what I'm talking about. Add this or that as money is available or it makes sense. I've yet to see your car but I will soon. At the end of the day, you will be competitive with me and have half what I do in my car.

I had a good solid plan and it's somewhere around here? I'm only at double my original plan so I'm about average. :D

[Flash68]

Whether people are able to keep or have to sell their cars for whatever reason, that is a great point about these things bringing people together from all over the country and world sometimes and creating new friendships. Those can outlast the cars.

Cheers to my fellow Pro Touring and Lateral G biatches! :lol: :cheers:

[Vegas69]

You drinking?:rofl:

[GregWeld]

You're wrong Todd --- Doug is a janitor... and a darn good one!

[Flash68]

You drinking?:rofl:

Not since this morning. :_paranoid

[DFRESH]

You're wrong Todd --- Doug is a janitor... and a darn good one!

Dude---LOL----now that's funny right there---

Yep--always cleaning up after others---it certainly fits in many ways for sure--

[DFRESH]

Doug,
I agree after speaking with you a few times that you don't fit the boiler plate car addict personaltiy. In fact after dealing with literally 1,000's of folks over the years I'd nail you at a psychologist or financial advisor. I'm sure I'm way off.

I envy you a little bit. You have the perfect car for exaclty what I'm talking about. Add this or that as money is available or it makes sense. I've yet to see your car but I will soon. At the end of the day, you will be competitive with me and have half what I do in my car.

I had a good solid plan and it's somewhere around here? I'm only at double my original plan so I'm about average. :D

That's pretty good man---you certainly get a good read on folks--I'm actually a Controller for a University here in So Cal---

Funny thing is, I want my stuff to be as nice as yours---just won't let myself--yet--I'm sure the greed will kick in once the cars are together in June---LOL --If Dave also brings his, I can guarantee a major decrease in the savings account.

[GregWeld]

Just trying to keep Todd off balance...
:rofl:

Didn't think about the janitor comment and your real occupation -- does kinda fit though!

All in good fun...

[Vegas69]

That's pretty good man---you certainly get a good read on folks--I'm actually a Controller for a University here in So Cal---

Funny thing is, I want my stuff to be as nice as yours---just won't let myself--yet--I'm sure the greed will kick in once the cars are together in June---LOL --If Dave also brings his, I can guarantee a major decrease in the savings account.

Is that what they call a Janitor nowadways?:rofl: Can't wait to see you in June.:thumbsup:

[nvr2fst]

Been there, done that. My wife actually printed up $1000 bills with our picture on the face because every time we turned around, we were dropping another g note because we figured "we've gone this far, we may as well add that".

Now my Camaro went the same route, with half of the DSE catalog on it and more billet widgets than you can count on your fingers and toes.

Yea, just finished that as well... If you think a car has cost over runs it's nothing compared to a custom house! Doom and gloom needs to end. It's making the car hobby less fun....

Slight hijack....
No difference here either guys. You set the budget for your vision and almost 100% of cost over runs are due to client redirection and over-selection. Doesn't matter if its 2000 or 20,000 sq. ft. (auto- mild build/mega build) Homes are always a fixed price with slotted allowances (auto-typically always hourly)which I assume both Jeff and Dave know. Just giving insight to those that haven't built. Most likely not , but if there's a developer out there that charges by the hour like this auto industry, I will go out of may way to shake his hand. Side note- Sorry Jeff being local and all, just wanted to rattle your cage for going with somebody else LOL

Great thread, excellent insight. And I would like to nominate Greg as our spokesman on wisdom. Scott can we get a Lat g wisdom sticky.

[Vegas69]

Not since this morning. :_paranoid

Now I understand....

[Matt@BOS]

Ok, seeing as how my father and I are just about done with our car, I think we've learned just enough to contribute to this conversation. First, this site is horrible on the check book, especially for someone looking to start a build. There are a ton of really well built, high end cars on here, with all of the right parts. When we first got our car back from Vegas it was just a clean shell that that barely rolled. The first thing we needed then was suspension. Going in to the project I had done a ton of research on parts. I knew what what was good, what was bad, and what was average, and I wanted something that was well balanced. I didn't want to have great suspension and crappy wheels, motor, etc. or vice versa. We knew we wanted it mini-tubbed and the shop we sent it to was a dealer for DSE, they talked my dad into their sub and quadralink. From that moment on our budget was ruined because every successive part we ordered or mod done had to be built to that same level. As inexperienced owners, with little more than a passion and appreciation for the hobby we knew it would get expensive. It is ridiculously easy to spend each month without realizing what the build totals after a year. Before our car even got to bodywork we had 65 grand wrapped up in it. We were fortunate enough not to worry too much about running way over budget, and figured if we'd come this far, we might as well go the rest of the way. Even so, it has been hard at times justifying this money pit of ours. If things were different I could easily see us trying to sell after realizing how much nice paint and an interior cost. Hell, if you include a shop handling wiring and final assembly you realize you could buy a new Vette and a daily driver or two instead of finishing the car, that seems more reasonable, which is downright frightening.

Be wary, I'm sure there are more of us morons out there than there appear to be
Anyway, that has been my experience, that is, the experience of the unskilled "drug addict" type that is new to the hobby. We fell into the crowd of people that really need to take their budget, double it, then add 15-25% to get what they envisioned. I suppose I'd agree that it would be easy for one's vision to easily become too big for his bank account. Or, at the very least too big for the budget, which is were we fall, and from the looks of it we are in good company with Todd and others.

Matt

[Vegas69]

Hey Matt,
You'll find that the dse sub and quad make that car. You made the right decision. The problem which you nailed is following that trend. All I can say is get out and use the car. Don't be afraid to put a scratch in it. All that will end up doing is lose more money.

[ProTouring442]

My car is no where near finished yet. It is also WAY over budget, but since it has been built on available funds and not credit, and as it has been built over the course of a few too many years, there has been no pinch because of this.

I think there are two rules that will keep any project, and any family for that matter, out of financial trouble.

Rule 1: Money makes an excellent servent, but a most tyrannical master.

Rule 2: Credit, like any power tool, when used properly and with the appropriate respect and care can be most useful. Also, like any power tool, if it is abused or used with any degree of carelessness, it can cause serious and permanent damage to the user.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[jr421]

As a person that is somewhat new to this site and the pro-touring site I understand how projects get out of control and become never ending piles of money. In my experience and realize most of my experience is in restoration with slight modifications you can always spend more. My problem is that if I make a car too nice it never gets driven. It’s a silly concept I know because I thought the reason we built them was to drive them and the nicer the car the more you should want to drive it. I find myself going into a preservation mode and trying to avoid wear and tear on it.

My biggest fear in my build is exactly that I build too nice of a car (over a 3 year period because of budget costs) and I wipe it with a diaper on sunny days in July. I take it to a few local shows here and there and then become frustrated and sell it. I am trying to keep a lid on it, but it is so hard not to buy 600.00 hood hinges and billet tail lights and other awesome parts. I am somewhere in between a junkie and a collector someone please help…..

When I first joined the site I had a vision, unfortunately someone already built it, Todd’s car is exactly what I would build, but after carefully and painfully examining the cost to build a car of that magnitude I came to the conclusion it would become a garage ornament and HOW much fun would that be in the grand scheme of things. I really appreciate this thread because it drove home the idea that I need to make some decisions and I need to gain some more knowledge before I choose a direction. I refuse to build a trailer queen and if I say it 12 times a day maybe I will succeed.

Once again thanks everyone for the awesome thread it may save a few of us from making big mistakes!

:thumbsup:

[DOOM]

Alot of good points on this thread. My car was to be a COPO clone when I started five years ago. Thats until I found this site. I found out real fast that this was not going to be a cheap venture. I just think eveyone starts out with good intensions. But things always change for what ever reason. We have one member that has to stop because of health reason and we have some that have financial ,or just no more interest. You can go on and on . You just don't know what tommorow will bring..:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Drive 'em!!

After doing a bazillion dollars in paint and bodywork THE FIRST TIME AROUND -- when they get all road rashed... it's a simple scuff and re-shoot.... the body is already flat... and the trim all fits... Most all of these cars are stored indoors and rarely "fade"... so if it's just the front that gets a little messy - guaranteed the painter can blend it.

Trust me on this one -- it's not that big of a deal -- and is down right CHEAP compared to the dough you WERE spending on the build originally. After you've owned the car 5 - 6 - 10 years - it needs fresh wheels and some interior cleaning and re-carpet - and the motor is dirty. Big whoop - that's what winters are for - yank it - clean it - freshen a bit - and relive the fantasy all over again -- RIGHT TODD? :rofl:

I drove my 67 BB Vette from here to Bloomington - via Yellowstone which was repaving about 6 miles of road - which meant ROCKS... big whoop I drove slowly for a whole 6 miles... out of a zillion mile 9 day trip.. The nose got painted and the seats where re-done (they're leather so show "wear" instantly) when I got home and before the next regional NCRS meet... My then 10 year old is still telling his friends about that trip - he's 23 now... THAT MY FRIENDS is what this HOBBY is all about... 4 years later - my then 10 year old daughter and I did a "roller coaster" trip for her 10th... in the same Vette -- we did every roller coaster on the west coast... When I got home - the nose got painted - and one door fogged - and it needed a new top because the 115 degree weather in Vegas (or maybe the 200 mph :lol: blast from Reno to Vegas) stretched the top and now it had a wrinkle in it... Big deal... she's still reliving that trip.

[ProdigyCustoms]

A big part of my Project Planning conversations focus on putting together a package that can actually be finished within the budget. I tell them if we make a plan, stick to the parts budget and monitor the labor budget, it will happen. Blow any of those and your either going to be in deeper then you wanted to be, or you will not finish!

But to many either go in with no plan, budget reality, or worse make changes along the way as every new trick trinket comes out. Sells a lot of parts for us though!

[Vegas69]

A big part of my Project Planning conversations focus on putting together a package that can actually be finished within the budget. I tell them if we make a plan, stick to the parts budget and monitor the labor budget, it will happen. Blow any of those and your either going to be in deeper then you wanted to be, or you will not finish!

But to many either go in with no plan, budget reality, or worse make changes along the way as every new trick trinket comes out. Sells a lot of parts for us though!

Your the guys that drinks a beer in front of an alchoholic and expects him not to drink.:unibrow:

[Greg from Aus]

Great thread guys. I can relate to pretty much all that has been said, especially about the community that comes with building a PT car. I live right over the other side of the pond ( Australia ) and without the help I have received from fellow Junkies on here, it just wouldn't be the same. Times have been tough for some of late, I hope thing improve for those that are in that situation, I am a bit different from Todd I do enjoy the build process, but I can't wait to hammer the **** out of it when it's done.

Greg

[Greg from Aus]

Yeah blame it all on FRANK :thumbsup:

Greg

[extralight]

Wow, what a great thread. Just like all the people on this site. Too early on the build to weigh in with the "total" experience but I thought I'd weigh in anyways. I think the key is to focus on your goal/intentions and not make a quick emotional decision. Sure, build your car with the "emotions" you want but make sure it is really worth it. My story is, I'm not a car nut but I like great cars. My daily drivers have been $100,000 cars that I track and drive hard but they are for me to enjoy how they handle not that I drive an expensive car. I was sick of having something you just wrote a check for and "anyone" can have. There are 2 cars I loved as a child and always wanted....4 headlight Vette and a 69 Camaro. Both I thought of buying and had a check in my hand but when I test drove them I hated the handling. Found this site and "knew" what the solution was. Yes I'm a professional but I also grew up in a small town with a figure it out and just do it attitude. Because my day job takes months/years to see something happen and is exactly opposite of building a house yourself an see what you've accomplished that day (which I've done) or "work on car" (which I really haven't done), my project is a great distraction from working "forever" to accomplish something. Because I've learned from "past mistakes", my goal for the car is quite simple, build it for myself, build it to handle and be fast yet reliable so I can actually drive it, build it to thrash it but not kill myself....in other words....keep it off the track since there is no roof or even windshield frame, build it to be unique for me. Above all, have fun with it and from a money perspective my only goal is to "avoid" mistakes which to me is defined as not paying for things twice or paying for something more than it is worth. While I've always like "fine" things....I've always enjoyed finding good deals and "paying" for what really matters. I wanted to do a lot of the work myself, not to save the money but to have the full experience. I just realized that time it would take, takes me away from other things I love and my plan to get the experience with friends didn't pan out because they are all busy and since I'm a professional I don't really have many "gearhead" friends who could help me do it right. The end result is I wanted to be "part of the build" but leave it up to professionals I trust and like....thus after 18 months of me doing the work (which was defined as very little work and lots of research) Kurt from AutoKraft has the project. The 18 months was great for me to really understand "what it takes", what I really want, and help me from making an emotional buying decision. Now, while I'm not "doing" much of the build myself, I've very involved in sourcing parts, design and when I have a chance I go to AutoKraft where I actually get to "help" them work on it.

My hope is someday, after a few car builds through builders and when I'm retired, I can actually "build" most of a car myself with friends. What I truly think I've found is a "hobby" I can do when I'm retired which is the most exciting. I'm only 42 now and all my other hobbies are athletic in nature or things not best suited for "latter" stages in life.

My advice, make all the decisions that it will really take to build the car when you're really sure you won't regret it with the goal of having fun...which ever way you define it.

[scherp69]

Alot of good points on this thread. My car was to be a COPO clone when I started five years ago. Thats until I found this site. I found out real fast that this was not going to be a cheap venture. I just think eveyone starts out with good intensions. But things always change for what ever reason. We have one member that has to stop because of health reason and we have some that have financial ,or just no more interest. You can go on and on . You just don't know what tommorow will bring..:cheers:

I also blame my current build (or thank it) to this website and pro-touring.com (and Frank :lol:) Until I found these sites, my car was going to be a mild build with a sbc crate, leaf spring/ladder bar set up and a few other mods. I came on here and now it's a full pro-touring build that is taking forever to build. I think we should just shut down the websites :D j/k. My goal for the build though has always been to save money for the parts, and then buy the parts. Save again and buy again. I'm lucky enough to have a job that allows me to work overtime to save up for the parts. These cars become an addiction! It's how you deal with that addiction that matters. It sucks to hear about the guys that have to sell their builds for whatever reason and life is way to short to worry about cars. If getting rid of it helps settle things at home..that's the way it has to be. For me, having the car to work on is therapeutic. I get to go into the shop and take my mind off things and just beat on some metal.

[DRJDVM's '69]

What a great thread...

Add one more to the "well my car was going to be a simple driver before I found this site...then it was game over on the budget" :)

Thats what happened with my '69 Camaro. My very first real build....learned a ton...went over budget....have quite a few instances of "if I knew then, what I know now I would have done it different" stuff, but not too bad..... but I still love that car.

On the Cuda, I've taken a big "jump up"....in the budget...in the overall plan.... the amount of fab work etc etc etc. But I've also tried to not set a deadline for myself. I dont want it to take 10 years, but I'm okay with it taking 4-5 years (I'm at 3 right now and a long way off).

The best thing I've probably done is keep the '69 while I do the Cuda.... I still have a fun musclecar I can drive, cruise in, go to shows, tinker with and still drive..... I have that whenever I want and need my "fix". So I'm okay with not having the Cuda finnish real quick.... I still have a cool toy to play with while I build the other bigger and badder toy... I know alot of guys dont have that luxury

I'm also the kind of guy that tends to stick with things once I've started. I dont give up easy and I tend to stick to one path... I dont buy and sell cars or parts constantly.....dont change my daily driver every other year...I live in the same place...keep the same job...go to the same restaurants. Once I find something I like, I tend to keep it forever........

I think just like alot of society in general.... people have short attention spans. They change jobs every couple of years....move to a different city or house....change the daily driver every other year....nothing keeps their interest very long...it always has to be changing.If they dont get it "right now" they lose interest and move on to something else...they change plans...they get blinded by something new and shiney and they lose focus...sell off stuff at 50 cents on the dollar and spend even more $$ on new stuff....

I'm like alot of guys on here.... I do it for fun.... I see it as an investment in ME.....not my car.... I dont do it to sell off as soon as its done...this is my hobby.

My advice....have fun...whether it be a beater of a million dollar car.... this is supposed to be fun. Be realistic with your goal and your budget and dont put an unrealistic deadline on it.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Your the guys that drinks a beer in front of an alchoholic and expects him not to drink.:unibrow:

Hey man, I quit smokin ciggerettes married to a smoker (still) and league bowling when EVERYONE smoked on the lanes.

Gotta be able to resist temptation. LOL!

It is hard though not to go a little over here and a little over there. I find myself all too often talking people into putting down the pipe, ROFLMAO!

[Vegas69]

I don't remember that talk.....:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[awr68]

Great thread guys!!

I started my build 8 years ago this month! After reading PHR I had a plan, it was going to be a basic and very mild PT build. Then I found PT.com and later Scott started this wonderful site. I don't blame the sites for my car costing more than origionally planned, but thank the sites for all the friends I have made and the education I have had along the way! These sites are a great tool and I can't imagine building a car without them! They allow us to build a much better car than we could have without all the info and pics.

I love this community! :lateral:

[DFRESH]

Great thread guys!!

I started my build 8 years ago this month! After reading PHR I had a plan, it was going to be a basic and very mild PT build. Then I found PT.com and later Scott started this wonderful site. I don't blame the sites for my car costing more than origionally planned, but thank the sites for all the friends I have made and the education I have had along the way! These sites are a great tool and I can't imagine building a car without them! They allow us to build a much better car than we could have without all the info and pics.

I love this community! :lateral:


I'll give that an "AMEN"---exactly right--love this place and the people--lots of fun for sure.

[DOOM]

I also blame my current build (or thank it) to this website and pro-touring.com (and Frank :lol:) Until I found these sites, my car was going to be a mild build with a sbc crate, leaf spring/ladder bar set up and a few other mods. I came on here and now it's a full pro-touring build that is taking forever to build. I think we should just shut down the websites :D j/k. My goal for the build though has always been to save money for the parts, and then buy the parts. Save again and buy again. I'm lucky enough to have a job that allows me to work overtime to save up for the parts. These cars become an addiction! It's how you deal with that addiction that matters. It sucks to hear about the guys that have to sell their builds for whatever reason and life is way to short to worry about cars. If getting rid of it helps settle things at home..that's the way it has to be. For me, having the car to work on is therapeutic. I get to go into the shop and take my mind off things and just beat on some metal.

Mike , I do the same exact thing . Owning my own buisness allows me some extra cash . When I have it I buy something new for the car. I will not spend money I don't have ! Over the last three years I have a pretty good inventory of parts . My wife always tells people when they ask ,'' Whats all those car parts doing in your garage, well its the most expensive car I've never seen'' .... It is a addiction no question. But I have to say I believe its a good one to have.

[CRCRFT78]

Great thread!

[GregWeld]

Gwens joke about me is that, "my husband will spend $1000 on tools to do a $100 job"...

That pretty much sums it up. Can't dispute it...

[Mike69Cam]

Great thread...I took particular interest in this because I am building a car for the first time. Bought a 69 Camaro in Sept and overpaid for it. It looked a lot better in the pics! I was referred to a restorer just north of LA who has educated me on PT (told me about this site)...I have learned a ton in this past few months and really enjoy reading about these cars from your posts. Most of you guys really know what your talking about. My guy asked me a lot of questions about what i want to do with the car.....race? cruise? show?. He sat down with me on several occasions to explain things. We've finally settled on a great build..LS3 (416. CNC ported, LS7cams from Scoggin Dickey)- , Magnacharger, Art Morrison, DSE quad, Vette brakes, Billet Specialty wheels, Sparco seats, new glass, new rubber, straightened, painted. My view is that I am going to have a bitchen car built the right way the first time. It'll be over $100K "all in", but it will be done and I'll autox it at G events, drive it on the curvey roads of the Santa Monica mountains with my boys, go the wine country with my girlfriend etc.....I can't wait! In the meantime...I'm driving my 09 Challenger.....cool, but nothing like a piece of history! Keeping fingers crossed my guys finishes when he says he will :)

[jr421]

Frank has been a terrific resource for me, and I do remember him giving me some darn good advice about getting to a certain point and then you get yourself in a postion where your all in! I guess I am trying to avoid the all in build so that I can buy a Mc Rib sammy on sundays! I just need him to open a chicago branch to paint my car.

[89 RS]

Great thread guys. I've been so busy that I've not been able to get on here in over a week, which is probably the first time that has happened. I just got done reading all 9 pages of the thread. I'd like to give my thoughts, which are that of Greg's in that this is suppose to be a "hobby". This site has allowed me to learn from everybody and allowed me to dream by watching/looking at these awesome builds/cars. Without dreams, you will have no goals.
While I may not have a six-figure car, my Camaro means just as much to me if it were a six-figure car. I continue to do things to it as money allows me to. Slowly, it is getting where I want to go with it. I have alot of people who think that since it is a third-gen Camaro I must be redneck...not true. Ever since I was a little kid, I wanted a third-gen Camaro...so it represents a passion for cars and a goal. I got my Camaro after college and now have been able to modify it to what I want in following the pro-touring theme. I have done things to my taste and as I can afford them. While it has not been a build to the extent of alot of cars on here, the cars on here have inspired me and raised the bar--so to speak. I just have a huge passion for cars and this great hobby. To me there is nothing more theraputic than getting in my Camaro and driving around town, going to a cruise, taking it to Iowa to hang out with my dad, or to wherever. This hobby has allowed me to share some great times with my dad and meet alot of new and great people. My son is just over 2 yrs old and already is into cars. I can't wait to share this great hobby with him as he grows.

[monza]

I don't remember that talk.....:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That's because your deep into the pipe... you don't get the talk.

[Vegas69]

I've already OD'ed and been reincarnated.:unibrow:

[cluxford]

Interesting thread, and so chillingly accurate.

Let me say up front:
1. My car building skills are crap. they are OK but not show quality
2. I run my own business and have a young daughter and a wife who could care less about cars (sees them as a waste of time and money)

But from the age of 10 I have wanted a killer Camaro, as the years went buy and cars I could afford came and went, I said I was going to build a top shelf car, and do it soon.

Worked my butt off and got the money.

I had a budget, and I am the first to openly admit that budget was $180K (aussie). I planned to outsource the entire build due to skills and time. I expected it to be 3 years.

Well, I am just over 3 years into the build. It will probably take another 6 months to complete

It's also looking like I'll end up around $250K Aussie.

I can tell ya freight costs for me for all the goodies from Prodigy, the car itself, Bill Mitchell, DSE and Summit to name just a few is in the thousands.

Good news is my car is almost exactly the plan, very little if anything changed, just under estimated the cost to do it.

This car is a life long dream that will soon be complete.

And it will be driven !!

Bottom line, budgets are essential in this game, even for those spending a lot of money on these cars. It's not hard to spend 6 figures on these cars, but even he best budgets can be easily blown.....

[NOT A TA]

Great thread, gives insite into a lot of members views.

In response to the OPs question

I think it's better to have a running car you can take out and enjoy (even if it isn't even a 40-70 thousand dollar car) than it is to have a pile of parts and a skeleton of a $150,000.00 car.


My observations

Since the PT G-machine hobby segment of the car hobby is fairly young, many of the cars being sold as "projects" now were started when the PT style started to "catch on". As others have said life happens and plans change for whatever reason, as there are more PT style builds being done now there are more unfinished projects being sold.

The (relatively) few cars that are being used competitively are admired by folks who see posts with pics/videos of the cars being driven and that sparks their interest and desire to build a cool car. Whats not to like about the concept of a wicked fast car that can go around corners and stop? The concept of a street driven car that can hit a dragstrip, Auto X, Land Speed Race, or road course is appealing.

Many think by starting with an inexpensive car needing work it will save them money. Then as many of you are aware of what can happen next they start to slide down the slippery slope. It's slow at first as they start working on the car and find rust in places they weren't aware there was rust, and then they realize the rust they knew about is a bit more extensive than they thought. "So it'll need quarters instead of patch panels." The owner thinks "well might as well mini tub it then! That will be cool!" not realizing that they are sliding down the slippery slope they're psyched at the excuse to mini tub.

Then they order the mini tubs, quarters etc and begin. While working on the body the decision to do a "frame off" is made "because it will be easier". Then work slows as the scope of the project increases. More time is spent on research than working on the car as a plan is formulated. Research begins on rears, subframes, suspension, brakes. While all this research is occuring the focus slowly turns from performance goals to aesthetic goals. At the same time the cost of the project escalates but the owner doesn't realize how much more it's really going to cost. They just add up the major component costs without including everything that will be needed.

A basic plan is made and parts start being ordered. (even though they're not needed yet) Some work is being done but more research is conducted while waiting for the basic needed parts. Then as parts arrive and more work is done more questions pop up and the scope increases again. Plans are revised and additional expenses are added. But it's "OK, because even though it'll take a little longer I'll have my dream car"

Over the next couple years unexpected life maintenance expenses come along that take money away from the car budget. Less work is done on the car because there's no point in doing work because there's not enough money to finish it "right". Some work is performed occasionally over the next couple years. Then something comes along that puts the nail in the coffin and stops the project dead. It might be child expenses, new job, moving, divorce, sidetracked by another car, or whatever. At that point the decision is made to put the project car up for sale, but, "I don't need to".

And yes, I'm guilty of sliding down the slippery slope. I have a 66 Mustang I started over 20 years ago. I've moved it from place to place and probably should have sold it long ago but "I don't NEED to" LOL And in my case all of the reasons listed above should have applied !!! AHAHA It's cost me more to move it, store it, and retrieve it when it was stolen than it's worth!

Why don't I finish it now? Too busy on the Firebird and Malibu. Why don't I sell it now? Who knows? I guess because "I don't NEED to". LOL

[evilzee28]

To be honest I don't think that things have chnaged that much, it's just that more people are now becoming aware of more unfinished PT cars coming up for sale, as the PT scene grows. The more people that get involved, then the more people are likely to drop out. It's all about percentages really. I've been restoring top end cars for close on 30 years & have found that car builders fall into 3 main categories. The rich ones that money is no object, no parts are too expensive & they are constantly pushing the envelope to be "top dog" in the show arena or on track.

The second type is the one that have the skills to do most of the work themselves & just need a shop like ours to finish things off for them. They budget accordingly & have a clear goal as to what they want within their budget. They go as far as they can by carrying out their own build & then take it to a shop to be finished, which normally includes painting & general build up, leaving the final finish & detailiing to the customer.

The third type of builder though are the ones that haven't fully prepared a plan of attack for the restoration. Unfortunately, these guys have a vision that far exceeds their personal car building skills & a bank balance that doesn't match their dreams. They see all of the "must have" parts being fitted to cars on forums & magazines & tend to follow the trend by buying them.When their lack of car building skills hits home, it comes to a point where they haven't the budget to finish the car by professionals as they've spent their money on unnescessary parts.

My own '69 Camaro is a case in point, the guy I bought it from stripped it to a bare shell, ripping out everything down to the last nut & bolt. He then proceeded to buy parts for it, but rather than just buy the essentials like body panels at that point, so that the rebuild could start, he went out & bought all of the "must have" parts, that he didn't need. By the time he'd finished buying all of the parts, he couldn't afford to have the bodywork done by a professional, as he'd spent all of his money on stuff that he didn't need at that point. Had he just got the essentials to get the car to paint stage, in the time it would take to get it into paint, he would have been able to save the money to buy the "must have" bits. 'Cos the car was just sitting there, with a small fortune of parts sitting in his garage, unable to progress any further, he became disillusioned with it & put it up for sale. This is probably why so many cars are left unfinished, due to poor planning & an unrealistic opinion of how much the car is gonna cost to rebuild

Cheers......Nige

[Payton King]

read all 10 pages of this post. It must hit home for a lot of folks.

My car is the perfect example of "scope creep" It started as a motor swap to a big block. Took way longer than I planned...6 years. Spent 3 times the money I planned.

What I ended up with was a once in a lifetime car for myself. Most of the cars that I had built before were heavy on performance with average looks. If it did not make it go fast I did not want it. I love my car, but would never build another one like it. I built it too nice for what I wanted to do with the car. If I built another it would be a primer car with all the go fast goodies. It has been finished for 2.5 years now and I find the new has worn off of all that shiney paint. Rock chips don't bother me and I am ready to hit the track....as Frank at Prodigy said, "its just paint."

I have thought about selling it a few times because of what I stated above. I got over that and now realize that at this stage in my life I do not have time to build another car, if I did build another one it would still be a 69 Camaro and you all know I am not getting any younger.

Stay tuned for dead cat and a half coming soon.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Stay tuned for dead cat and a half coming soon.

I can already hear my phone ringing!

[Vegas69]

Make sure you have that talk with Payton first.:rofl:

[Payton King]

not throw stones,Todd. LOL

[youthpastor]

It may have been stated already 'cause I didn't read everybodys rant..another issue is everybody wants the latest "widget"

This happened 15 years ago with the street class drag race cars. We all had 12-13 second cars and a "heavy hitter" was solid into the elevens. The track hero was a 10:20 car. Then all the hype hit and everyone had to build a 10 second car...buying parts they couldn't afford. Most cars sat for years because they wouldn't be caught dead running iron heads, etc.


flash forward 15 years...
and you ain't cool if.....
stock subframe, leafsprings, etc etc....ahhh but then there is Mary Pozi kicking everybody's but with ...stock leaf springs and a stock subframe.

There are people, like Greg mentioned who are having a blast just driving thier cars.

With this economy I see people doing stuff like Jason Rushforth...upgrade slowly and keep it on the road, paint and trick parts are for later times.

I would love to see this becoming a bigger movement, but who wants to pay $4.95 for a Mag full of cars with rough fitting sheetmetal and less than perfect interiors etc

[Al Moreno]

To be honest I don't think that things have chnaged that much, it's just that more people are now becoming aware of more unfinished PT cars coming up for sale, as the PT scene grows. The more people that get involved, then the more people are likely to drop out. It's all about percentages really. I've been restoring top end cars for close on 30 years & have found that car builders fall into 3 main categories. The rich ones that money is no object, no parts are too expensive & they are constantly pushing the envelope to be "top dog" in the show arena or on track.

The second type is the one that have the skills to do most of the work themselves & just need a shop like ours to finish things off for them. They budget accordingly & have a clear goal as to what they want within their budget. They go as far as they can by carrying out their own build & then take it to a shop to be finished, which normally includes painting & general build up, leaving the final finish & detailiing to the customer.

The third type of builder though are the ones that haven't fully prepared a plan of attack for the restoration. Unfortunately, these guys have a vision that far exceeds their personal car building skills & a bank balance that doesn't match their dreams. They see all of the "must have" parts being fitted to cars on forums & magazines & tend to follow the trend by buying them.When their lack of car building skills hits home, it comes to a point where they haven't the budget to finish the car by professionals as they've spent their money on unnescessary parts.

My own '69 Camaro is a case in point, the guy I bought it from stripped it to a bare shell, ripping out everything down to the last nut & bolt. He then proceeded to buy parts for it, but rather than just buy the essentials like body panels at that point, so that the rebuild could start, he went out & bought all of the "must have" parts, that he didn't need. By the time he'd finished buying all of the parts, he couldn't afford to have the bodywork done by a professional, as he'd spent all of his money on stuff that he didn't need at that point. Had he just got the essentials to get the car to paint stage, in the time it would take to get it into paint, he would have been able to save the money to buy the "must have" bits. 'Cos the car was just sitting there, with a small fortune of parts sitting in his garage, unable to progress any further, he became disillusioned with it & put it up for sale. This is probably why so many cars are left unfinished, due to poor planning & an unrealistic opinion of how much the car is gonna cost to rebuild

Cheers......Nige

That's some good insight.

[customcam]

Interesting thread, and so chillingly accurate.

Let me say up front:
1. My car building skills are crap. they are OK but not show quality
2. I run my own business and have a young daughter and a wife who could care less about cars (sees them as a waste of time and money)

But from the age of 10 I have wanted a killer Camaro, as the years went buy and cars I could afford came and went, I said I was going to build a top shelf car, and do it soon.

Worked my butt off and got the money.

I had a budget, and I am the first to openly admit that budget was $180K (aussie). I planned to outsource the entire build due to skills and time. I expected it to be 3 years.

Well, I am just over 3 years into the build. It will probably take another 6 months to complete

It's also looking like I'll end up around $250K Aussie.

I can tell ya freight costs for me for all the goodies from Prodigy, the car itself, Bill Mitchell, DSE and Summit to name just a few is in the thousands.

Good news is my car is almost exactly the plan, very little if anything changed, just under estimated the cost to do it.

This car is a life long dream that will soon be complete.

And it will be driven !!

Bottom line, budgets are essential in this game, even for those spending a lot of money on these cars. It's not hard to spend 6 figures on these cars, but even he best budgets can be easily blown.....

250K??? What was the Dollar at when you bought? :geezer:

[cluxford]

well bought it at 78 cents.

car landed in oz after Fx, freight and taxes for $16K
Engine (World 632) landed after Fx freight and taxes $22K
AME c5 Clip landed in Oz after Fx, freight and taxes $11K

That's $49K right there without a spanner laid to the car

I have also bought
DSE tank
DSE tubs
a ton of Fesler, marquez billet stuff
I have also bought a whole bunch of stuff from Ricks
Dakota digital guages
Retrotek push button shifter ($1K after tax and shipping etc)
Bought two sets of wheels, a custom billet set here in Oz, and just laid out another $4.5K for Rushforths. Only thing I have changed on the car during the build
Strange diff center - after Fx, freight and taxes over $4K at my house
Billet Specialities pulley system
Edelbrock 2 x 600 CFM's in Endura shine
Edelbrock Endura Shine dual quad manifold

$4K in a heavily built TH400

$4.5K in full custom 3" exhaust - full stainless

all of the above is before any labour on the car. Without adding it all up (I do have a spreadsheet) it's has over $100K (Aussie dollars) in car and parts. Note the dollar has swung between 75 cents and 90 cents, I have bought at an average of about 83 cents.

If you take away Fx and freight costs, car and parts are probably around the $70K USD. I don't think this is too unusual for most high end builds on this site, not all but some.

My car is pretty heavily customised, entirely hand build metal interior, so lots of labour costs.

Full custom 4 link built by one of Australia's top drag car chassis builders. Over $6K just in the rear end

There is actually $140K Aussie spent already (cash outlaid).

Not even in paint yet. So I think it will go over the original $180K budget.

We are going to paint 5 coats of base then 4 coast of PPG Vibrance pearl and at least 6-8 coats of clear, so paint alone will be $20-30K, and I still have interior and all electrical stuff, custom radiator, glass kit, custom rubbers to flush mount, still need to smooth the bumpers etc etc

Final note - the car is a 100% outsourced build, first to admit if I want a show quality car, I have neither the skills nor the time, so I have worked my arse off to get the funds to achieve what I want. Happy to share my detail I am not embarrassed by my build, even if it costs more than it should, my view is always you get what you pay for and the builder is just awesome.

[70rs]

^^^^^There is nothing to be embarassed about. Quite the oppisite in fact. You had a goal, earned the funds, planned and researched and are now in the home stretch of realizing your dream! I say GREAT JOB!:cheers:

[customcam]

Mate im just finding that amount Hard to beleive when i know of other cars that have more expensive parts and fab work and finish that have cost alot lower than that amount.
20-30k in paint ALone.
Just in your engine and front clip you've got about you have over 12 K in just freight cost & Gst....:wow:
It doesnt bother me how much you have in your car, its more about me finding the best possible way to cut costs
coz for me to pay a 1/3rd in Freight and fees is hefty!

[cluxford]

Cool, wasn't upset, as said happy to share...very excited I get to put my new Rushforth's on today woo hoo !

[customcam]

I just had a look at those Rushforths also. Shiny or what :thumbsup:

[syborg tt]

Mike , I do the same exact thing . Owning my own buisness allows me some extra cash . When I have it I buy something new for the car. I will not spend money I don't have ! Over the last three years I have a pretty good inventory of parts . My wife always tells people when they ask ,'' Whats all those car parts doing in your garage, well its the most expensive car I've never seen'' .... It is a addiction no question. But I have to say I believe its a good one to have.


LOL - Your wife an my wife must be the same since my wife say's the same thing.

Even funnier --Kenny, Kenny Who.

Even better -- Tracy - now there is a Tracy

Okay so back to the post at hand.

I've built countless Trucks and a hadful of cars.

Something happended several years back and I decided to see what I could do if I started a project and then teamed up with the best shop out there. The goal was to build something completely different and do it over time. For me it's about the journey. I love planning the build, sourcing the parts, finding new idea's for each phase of the build.

I've met and worked with some incredible people. For me it's all about the friendship and the hobby.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, don't do drugs and I'm married so I don't have nearly as much sex I would like ( please I hope my wife doesn't read this ). heck I don't even drink soda as i find it's a waste of money.

So I have more money available for my hobby them most. If I spend more the 7 or 8 bucks on lunch / dinner I am actually angry because to me that's money I could be spending on my hobbies ( cars & Mountain Bikes )

Trust me you think car's are expensive try spending $1400.00 for a set of rims for a bike. The $200.00 for disk brakes and $100.00 for a cassette and you still have to pedal it up hill.

I have no clue if what i've posted makes any sense for me it was just a rant and I do feel better.

ps The next project which is in the planning stage will be on a completely different budget plan but should attract just as much attention as my current build.

[syborg tt]

Awesome Web site - i've looked at it many times

Yep, same stuff happened to me during my build, and mine wasn't half as complex as some of these I see out there. Much more time and money than I thought it would be. And I'm still spending to get it right. It just goes on and on. That's the very reason why I dumped all the details into my own build site, to give people some realistic insight into what it really takes and how all those small things and parts and costs really add up. My site is more of a 'warning' than anything. A few of the people who have signed my guestbook have mentioned things like "thanks for opening my eyes" and "I had no idea", so I hope maybe my passing along of details is helping a few people in one way or another.

Yes, Lateral-g has cost me some money also, but without it and the contributions of all its members, I probably would have never built my car and made some great friends from here. So to hell with my empty wallet, it was worth it.

[ALLSPEED01]

[Quote:
I'll leave it with this... I love fussing with my hobby -- but I love fussing around with the FRIENDS I've made because of my hobby, more. In the end - it's about the PEOPLE - not the cars... The pasta is just there to get the sauce to your face.. cars are that way for me... I've met GREAT people of all walks of life because the car hobby makes me get out and do stuff... I have friends whose cars break down every time they drive them... and I'm called upon to help rescue them... and we always end up having fun with the "experience". I have friends that have MILLIONS of dollars invested in cars... and we have just as much fun blowing their stuff up - or scheming about "what coulda shoulda"...

I'd like to have Ironworks - or Prodigy - or Comp-Spec build me a car - but not because I want to impress any of you with how much I can spend - I'd do it because I'd love to hang with them - and learn from them - and be friends long after the build was finished... I can buy their shops and close 'em up and never skip a beat... but I'd sweep their floors for months just to be around what they're doing. Does that make sense to anyone? It's why we all hang around Lat G isn't it? The hobby. I don't care if people even own a car... if they love the hobby and choose to participate, regardless of their level. :cheers:[/QUOTE]


Greg,
Well said!:thumbsup:
I totally agree if you don't drive it...don't buy it!
What a thought provoking thread. After reading this I find myself sitting here and just smiling thinking of all the funny circumstances and interesting people that I have met because of cars. I have been involved with this crazy hobby since birth, my father owned a few local service stations back in the 70's and it was normal to just hang out at the shop. I got my first car a 68 camaro when I was 14 and my friends and I used to work on it in my mothers driveway including using her tupperware to drain the oil in. (not a good idea by the way) During and just after high school I was heavily involved in sand drag racing and most recently I started All Speed. My point is I have a thousand great stories that involve cars and interesting people. I have heard many times that what matters is the journey and not the destination...and you can not put a price on a good time. I deal with all types of people that pass through the shop doors and all I can say is that I'm sure they all have their individual reasons, plans, budgets etc. for their projects, and yes they all get carried away in their own respects. But what really matters in the long run is if they had fun doing it. I think I speak for all of us when I say we would all do it again... and have a smile on our face! Thats what is so cool about this hobby a millionaire can hang out with a mechanic, and guy with a $200K car can go cruising with a guy with a $20k or less car and they can both have fun. Maybe we should start a thread on "car memories"? By the way no offense to you Greg but I have been in Todd's garage and I would call him to sweep ASP!:unibrow:

[GregWeld]

Yeah -- Todd owes me dinner anyway - so a promise to sweep his shop might get me a burger... :woot:

[Vegas69]

I can guarantee it won't be Prime Steakhouse at the Bellagio. :rofl: I don't think my garage will ever be the same after the exxon valdez spill over here. :D